3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Perhaps in your experience which I don't doubt, but not in mine. Like anything in life one size does not fit all and I don't necessarily think that you need exceptional strength for extension.
What is the problem with my two handed backhand ?
- Thread starter grzewas
- Start date
Perhaps you believe in loose wrist. I dont believe. If your wrist is loose then extension can help you because only the speed of the racket is important. I generate power and spin using elbow. Wrist cant be loose in this technique. It wouldnt work.
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Understood using that technique - I do have a reasonably loose wrist and find better results with better extension. We are similar in that we both prefer the technique that works for us, we differ on whether it can be applied to people with weaker muscles or age related degeneration. For me though strength is not defined by muscle mass but by the efficient use of the muscle that you do have.
My game is more based on control than on power though power is also important. When the approaching ball is fast I try to regain as much of its kinetic energy as possible, that is why I act like a wall. If the approaching ball is slow then I need more speed of the racket I use inertia of the racket more so I accelerate racket to greater speed. Then I use technique similar but not identical to the technique described in this video.
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Good vid, enjoyed that and the concepts conveyed will increase the competency of the bh stroke.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I really like the RacquetFlex guy videos ... professional, great personality, really good useful information. BUT!!! on this video ... some really WRONG information needs to be corrected.
First .. an observation about 2hbhs ... any decent level player hits from multiple stances .... closed, neutral, semi-open, open. The discussions often happen as if the only 2hbh we hit is a step forward closed stance.
Now ... saying that ... the following is about step forward (weight transfer) closed stance 2hbhs
You need to erase the following things from your memory that was in that video:
1) Rick Macci's nonsense about hip drive -> causing elastic stretching and flipping ... seriously ... wash your eyes out with soap and water, and clean your ear canal out with one of those wax remover kits
2) understand that the swing does not start at the backswing
3) understand that a player can introduce lag before swing or right after it starts (he said this in the video)
4) racquet back and up is not a requirement for lag or snap (snap a bad word ... we should probably say lag and release).
Here are the components of a step forward weight transfer closed stance ... watch any pro 2hbh video for proof:
1) take unit turn (both hips and shoulders) ... this is the same for racquet up and back or taking racquet straight down (Rios, Venus, Rawanska)
2) take a step on front foot already fully unit turned ... if you can find a video with a step followed by "more unit turn" after landing on that front foot ... post a link to that video
3) as you are stepping ... racquets up drop and move to slot ... racquets already down just have to move to slot
4) once landed on right foot, and timed with hands/racquet reaching slot ... uncoiling starts ... swing starts
If you don't understand that sequence ... or at least hitting in that sequence ... you really don't have a 2hbh and the least of your problems is arm positions. If you start your swing before anchored on front foot ... no leverage ... weak tea 2hbh. If you start to late, you lose the free momentum of what I call "step and spin" off that front foot ... timing is everything with the 2hbh step forward 2hbh. OP Gregory is on his front foot in both his bent/bent 2hbh and his bent/bent 2hfh before his uncoiling/swing starts ... therefore he is eligible to sell a bent/bent 2hbh as something new.
The Macci presentation of that hip drive bs causing the stretch and flip. Just watch pro video ... not even close to what is happening with pro 2hbhs. Relaxed step carrying their pre-coiling to landing ... then simply using that stored range of motion to start the swing with shoulders and hips uncoiling soon followed by left arm/hand (righty) hitting.
Having to have racquet up for any decent lag:
Racquetflex guy gave the example himself of a player setting lag with his hands before the swing ... this guy:
Watch any slow motion video of Nishikori hitting his 2hbh and come back and make the case that he got in that position because of rh up ... and not just by using his arms and hands to put it in that position. I dare you.
If that isn't enough for you .... than come back and tell us the following players have no decent 2hbh lag because they went straight down with the racquet INTO A LAGGED POSITION:
Want to tell Rios he didn't have any lag in his 2hbh ... hehehehehe
Watch @00:32
Other players going straight down with lag:
Heck ... Venus runs with lag ... so ugly but proves the point the "pulls for stretch and lag and snap" is totally bs ... or hip drive and snap even more priceless bs:
This entire post was just an excuse to look at Radwanska and watch Rios video. Man ... if only we had better HD Rios video ... dude was fun to watch.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
No exaggerated hip powering ... just step and rotate over that right hip.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
An underrated aspect of Djokovic’s 2hb is that his stance seems to always be aligned very close to neutral. Very rarely are his feet aligned differently than that.
I played against a guy this week who is a good player, but he was struggling with his 2hb because he has nasty habit of always hitting his 2hb with an open stance, which severely limits the extension of the linear hitting zone.
I cant stand watching this primitive stiff backhand of Djokovic.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
When I was in the middle of my bucket list 2hbh holy grail quest
, I watched a lot of pro 2hbh match play video (or live). For the most part ... when a player goes for their max ... they go closed stance. Djoker might be an exception, but I would be surprised. There is a video somewhere of him being interviewed on the court, and he explained his stances a little ... said he likes to open more for cc.You will have to explain more about what you mean by open limiting "linear extension" ... because in my definition it doesn't. I would define it as the hand path from slot to to common pro arm extension toward net in follow through (just assume rh squared up during contact). To me ... I feel like I get a bit more unit turn with closed ... but my arm straightening from slot with hand traveling from slot to pointing in direction of the target is the same.
I don't think I hit an open or semi open 2hbh until the second summer. I was under the illusion it wasn't needed. That was wrong ... and the no need for drop and lag was wrong. Anyway ... the semi open 2hbh ended up being my most accurate stance. If I hitting 50 balls from ball machine cc at cone deep in corner, my tightest pattern was always semi open with swing thought reach toward cone with left hand. Opposite of slap across crazy Gregory
is trying to sell. But my full rope 2hbh dtl (which might be more twine than rope ) ... closed with step.
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic says he likes to open his stance a little for crosscourt. But what he really means is he prefers to hit neutral stance with respect to the target. Doing this has the disadvantage of giving your opponent a “tell” before contact, but in a baseline rally, this is usually offset by the advantage of better accuracy and weight transfer into the shot. For passing shots, he probably hides his direction better by using same stance for both DTL and CC.When I was in the middle of my bucket list 2hbh holy grail quest
You will have to explain more about what you mean by open limiting "linear extension" ... because in my definition it doesn't. I would define it as the hand path from slot to to common pro arm extension toward net in follow through (just assume rh squared up during contact). To me ... I feel like I get a bit more unit turn with closed ... but my arm straightening from slot with hand traveling from slot to pointing in direction of the target is the same.
I don't think I hit an open or semi open 2hbh until the second summer. I was under the illusion it wasn't needed. That was wrong ... and the no need for drop and lag was wrong. Anyway ... the semi open 2hbh ended up being my most accurate stance. If I hitting 50 balls from ball machine cc at cone deep in corner, my tightest pattern was always semi open with swing thought reach toward cone with left hand. Opposite of slap across crazy Gregory
An open stance in 2hb makes it much harder to incorporate any forward weight transfer into the shot. So with more power coming from rotation, the hitting zone is shorter.
Dragy
Legend
Can you explain how you see power to come from weight transfer?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
If your stance is neutral, then you can transfer weight from your back foot to your front foot. This is generally fundamental to a good 2hb.
If your stance is completely open, there is zero weight transfer (unless you are jumping forward like a frog).
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Oh ... you are calling the step part of the hitting zone ... was disguised by your stance.
I just look at the different stances as the same stroke but over different hip/s.
Dragy
Legend
You don’t get away so easy Mr. Engineer!
Torso rotation delivers power by pulling arms into circular swing (actually, propelling them wider with increasing radius and leverage until right behind the ball). How “weight transfer” (and not simply “body forward movement”) produces any power for the shot?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Interestingly, I became more acutely aware that my 2hb has both a rotational component and a weight transfer component in the last several months when I started experimenting with longer racquets. A longer racquet naturally adds power from leverage, which in turn allows you to be lazier with footwork, because the weight transfer component is less critical to getting good power.Oh ... you are calling the step part of the hitting zone ... was disguised by your stance.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I know why @Dragy asked that ... it has never been obvious to me how a step adds anything to 2hbh other then marginally. For me ... that marginally happens because if you time it right ... the step and spin over right hip is a very efficient effortless way to start the uncoiling. With open ... it's the same as open fh ... power up and rotate from back leg. Also times where both hips involved ... prefer to ignore those.
I don't buy into Gregory's added weight/resistance from step or any other stance. We land on right leg/foot ... sometimes even leaning back a little ... no added weight of shot other than Whataburger lunch.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
You don’t get away so easy Mr. Engineer!
Torso rotation delivers power by pulling arms into circular swing (actually, propelling them wider with increasing radius and leverage until right behind the ball). How “weight transfer” (and not simply “body forward movement”) produces any power for the shot?
Step and spin ... step and spin ... torso a lazy susan over that right hip.
Dragy ... you are going to end up right on this ... but Mr Engineer might not buy it.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Why would you get a longer racquet when you could extend your arm farther out then 1 extra inch ... or just start rotating a full Agassi straight/straight 2hbh. 20lbs of arm triangle .. with Dragy's rotation of that extended 20 lb arm triangle ... net players would be ducking ... and the couple walking on the sidewalk behind the court.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I think the neutral stance is critical. When I teach it, I always have my students move to their left and apply the brakes to lateral movement by planting the left foot behind where you want to line up. Then you can use the right foot to take a final step forward toward the target. Once students pick up this footwork pattern their 2hb improves a lot if they weren’t already doing it.I know why @Dragy asked that ... it has never been obvious to me how a step adds anything to 2hbh other then marginally. For me ... that marginally happens because if you time it right ... the step and spin over right hip is a very efficient effortless way to start the uncoiling. With open ... it's the same as open fh ... power up and rotate from back leg. Also times where both hips involved ... prefer to ignore those.
I don't buy into Gregory's added weight/resistance from step or any other stance. We land on right leg/foot ... sometimes even leaning back a little ... no added weight of shot other than Whataburger lunch.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
That's not what Dragy is asking is it? He asked why the added power I thought. Are you saying because of on time and balanced?
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I will be back soon ... mowing almost done.
Dragy
Legend
I’m actually ok with the idea that linear forward movement from neutral stance is beneficial for stroke production. I can suggest a couple of mechanics which take part in that. Maybe not a complete picture yet (taking into account I’m only goofing around with 2HBH, not playing/learning it with any seriousness).I know why @Dragy asked that ... it has never been obvious to me how a step adds anything to 2hbh other then marginally. For me ... that marginally happens because if you time it right ... the step and spin over right hip is a very efficient effortless way to start the uncoiling. With open ... it's the same as open fh ... power up and rotate from back leg. Also times where both hips involved ... prefer to ignore those.
I don't buy into Gregory's added weight/resistance from step or any other stance. We land on right leg/foot ... sometimes even leaning back a little ... no added weight of shot other than Whataburger lunch.
My question is actually to determine if weight transfer is nothing but a flavored description of that body forward movement.
Weight transfer increases pressure of the racket on the ball what increases the acceleration of the ball. Acceleration = Force/mas. It also lengthens the distance on which head of the racket is accelerated.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I define weight transfer as the forward movement of the body’s center of gravity. A neutral stance allows weight transfer in a very balanced way. It’s still possible to have forward weight transfer with an open stance, which offen happens on a forehand approach shot when a player plants the right foot in front of the left as the final step while running forward into the shot.
Dragy
Legend
Such claims just contradict physics. Even if you were a rigid body with all your joints and racquet in your hands, you’d have diminishing effect of your core mass on “off-center” hit. But with all the losses in joints elasticity there’s neglected contribution of torso mass for the shot.
I posted it earlier, put on a 30 kg vest - you won’t hit neither reflect the ball harder with your typical stroke posture.
What body movement does to the stroke (and not the body mass, be it higher or lower) is creating a basic level of velocity for shoulders which is transmitted to arms holding a racquet. It’s also quite possible, with a circular (pendulum, and somewhat around) nature of arms swing, moving shoulder forward as arms are still dropping “behind” provides so-called parametric acceleration.
Also it’s obviously beneficial lengthening the strikezone, so allowing to intercept a falling/rising ball more reliably. Not that crucial against penetrating balls.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Actually, I think weight transfer is even more important against penetrating balls, or when playing against a stiff wind. I’ve noticed that when I play in strong wind, whoever has the longer linear hitting zone is at a big advantage.
Dragy
Legend
I won’t argue here, I think it’s a complex issue. I’m referring to the relative speed of approaching ball and racquet. Ball speed + racquet speed should be high enough for contact to be reliable. You can block an incoming fast ball with 0 racquet speed and have a solid contact. You cannot do the same - block the shot forward - against a vertically falling ball (like dying deep high slice after bounce). Next step, you can swing vertically from your still block and get a topspin-block back against a fast ball. You need to swing through a nothing ball to get it over the net.
The idea that you might want even more solid shot with linear component against a fast ball is legit, yet it belongs to different area of analysis, in my opinion. I was considering “weight transfer” shot purely mechanically.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
When I use the term "weight transfer" with 2hbh I simply mean stepping up on the front leg (all or almost all weight off back leg) as the anchor/base of the swing.
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
The left leg can also rotate round after the right leg has stepped in and you've made contact. This aids stability and allows you push back into recovery.
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Backhand of Azarenka is much better than primitive stiff backhand of Djokovic. She doesnt stop the racket behind and her left elbow is bent all the time.
And here forehand with bent elbow.
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3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Primitive stiff translates as technical marvel hall of fame shot. Compact backswing, efficient drop and drive with closed face out to target with left arm extended. Glorious isn't it Greg.
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yep ... I was glad to find out that was expected when I noticed I was doing that the first summer with ball machine.
Great improvement in my two handed forehand. I still can't run due to an unhealed thigh injury and because today it was raining all day so I used this time to look for changes in technique. We played on a carpet with quartz sand under the roof. At last my right elbow broke free from my body and started movement upward. Only in the end the left elbow made it difficult to finish the stroke properly but I will work on this error tomorrow.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Your two elbows just don't seem to get along. Man ... that green backdrop is fugly ... can you see the ball
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
If you're hitting it well you would fall over without it. Quite natural if your rotation starts with the left hip and flows through the shot all the way to finish.Yep ... I was glad to find out that was expected when I noticed I was doing that the first summer with ball machine.
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3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Nice clean striking. I play league matches on artificial grass with sand and the speed is insanely fast. It looks like you're on the beach on that court, why so much sand?
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3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
I think that we all agree that we established that there was no problem in my two handed backhand. It is for sure the best two handed backhand in Poland in +55 and +60 categories. Technically this backhand should be standard in amateur tennis and in older categories. It is a great pathology to try to copy backhand of the best professionals who dont have to have good technique because they are very strong. They can shorten their strokes to save time. Primitive stiff backhands of Nadal or Djokovic dont work in amateur tennis.
RajS
Semi-Pro
@grzewas Yes, your two handed backhand is excellent. Replaying it at 25% speed, my amateur rec level eye sees all the elements there, including a compact back swing. It is very much a left handed shot, and you don't always curtail your follow through (it does wrap sometimes). Maybe a little less spin because your right elbow stays down more often, and your grip may be a bit tighter (sometimes follow through is very short). But you have a good racket drop at the end of your back swing that makes up for it. So, you seem to do whatever the pros do, only you have consciously tailored it to your circumstances. Very good job.
I won't comment on your two handed forehand as I know nothing about how it should work.
My view is that the way pros play is the optimal way to play. If we do it their way (at least to the extent we can), we will play our best tennis. But our results will never be like their results, since they have god given physical abilities and most of us don't.
I won't comment on your two handed forehand as I know nothing about how it should work.
My view is that the way pros play is the optimal way to play. If we do it their way (at least to the extent we can), we will play our best tennis. But our results will never be like their results, since they have god given physical abilities and most of us don't.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
You should remember that I am a very weak person and my right wrist is injured. Replace me by a healthy person, 30% stronger, and now you can only imagine how good my backhand would be.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
The Polish National Championships begin on August 13. In my category at least 10 players who can beat me if I dont play my best tennis( I can beat them too) declared their participation. I don't remember a tournament with so many good players in my category. Marek Lubas is favourite but it is difficult to predict the results between the other nine. I'm not afraid of anyone. I'll attack them with both hands. This my advantage.
If you want to see how the best backhand in amateur tennis works you should watch next video. I play here against current International Champion of Poland in +55 category on the fast surface on which he plays the best. Winning the Polish Championships you can compare to wining Championships of 6 average US states.
I havent played too many ITF tournaments during last years. Usually I played in Polish National Championships, two times in Zabrze and once in Kolobrzeg and Puszczykowo. Two times I was runner-up in National Championships (last year I had 400% matchball) And three times I lost in the final in Zabrze and Kolobrzeg and Puszczykowo where Kerber lives. For a weak person with injured right wrist it is not bad. Mostly I played not in ITF but in Polish tournaments. In the period from August 2017 to February 2020 only in two months I was not in top 4 of Polish ranking in my category. During last 5 years I have won 171 matches and lost 49. Since August 2015 10 times I have lost in the final and won 25 tournaments. Most of these tournaments I won because I had a great advantage on backhand side. That is why I can advise how to be a winner in ameteur tennis and in older categories.
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