When will the weak era debate switch from 04-07 to basically the 2015-21 era?

[Deleted member 779124]

Hmm no, AO07 is weak as, 2007 Wimbledon is decent win, 2007 USO again weak. Nothing compares to AO15 Wawrinka + Murray > 2007 Gonzo + Roddick. Wimby15 Fed > Nads 07, USO15 Fed > 07 Nole.

Real objective

 

[xFedal]

Real objective

Il give u 07 stronger than 04.

 

[zvelf]

It shouldn't be when the best players of all time are basically geriatrics relative to tennis age. That's what exposes the younger gen as being weak.

But the assumption that Djokovic and Nadal are geriatrics is wrong because it fails to take into context changes in sports. Thanks to scientific improvements in training, diet, nutrition and technological changes in equipment, athletes in general have been able to play very well into what was formerly considered advanced ages. Djokovic and Nadal certainly don't look like they play poorly as they reached amazing shot after amazing shot in the RG semi. They aren't at their peaks, but they haven't fallen off a cliff either. That happens when you're Federer nearing 40.

 

[abmk]

Hmm no, AO07 is weak as, 2007 Wimbledon is decent win, 2007 USO again weak. Nothing compares to AO15 Wawrinka + Murray > 2007 Gonzo + Roddick. Wimby15 Fed > Nads 07, USO15 Fed > 07 Nole.

LOL @ WIM 15 fed > Nadal 07
bwahahaha
Just the WIm 07 final is enough to make it strong.

Oh and USO 07 Roddick > USO 15 Fed
Fed's draw of Lopez, Roddick, Davy, DJokovic ROFLSTOMPs upon Djokovic's draw of RBA, significantly worse Lopez, injured Cilic, Federer.

Anyone calling USO 07 weak is outta their mind.

3 of the 4 slam runs of fed in 07 tougher than djokovic in 15 (RG, Wim, USO). Only AO was weaker.

 

[fundrazer]

I love posters going to these sites and citing arbitrary statistics/measurements as fact.

 

[The Guru]

Ok, but saying 2015 is stronger than 2004-2005 is still pretty hilarious. Djoko fans will never admit 2015 wasn't strong.

Thinking 04-05 is stronger is ridiculous to me so I guess we're at a stalemate here.

 

[zvelf]

LOL @ WIM 15 fed > Nadal 07
bwahahaha
Just the WIm 07 final is enough to make it strong.

Oh and USO 07 Roddick > USO 15 Fed
Fed's draw of Lopez, Roddick, Davy, DJokovic ROFLSTOMPs upon Djokovic's draw of RBA, significantly worse Lopez, injured Cilic, Federer.

Anyone calling USO 07 weak is outta their mind.

3 of the 4 slam runs of fed in 07 tougher than djokovic in 15 (RG, Wim, USO). Only AO was weaker.

Fed's 2007 Wimbledon and USO are tougher than Djokovic's 2015's, but no way is Federer's 2007 RG harder than Djokovic's 2015 RG with Nadal in the quarters, Murray in the semis, and Wawrinka in the final.

 

[zvelf]

I love posters going to these sites and citing arbitrary statistics/measurements as fact.

When statistics agree with what you believe, they are totally legit. When statistics disagree with what you believe, they are "arbitrary."

 

[RS]

Thinking 04-05 is stronger is ridiculous to me so I guess we're at a stalemate here.

2007 > 2005 > 2004 > 2006 >= 2015.

 

[abmk]

Fed's 2007 Wimbledon and USO are tougher than Djokovic's 2015's, but no way is Federer's 2007 RG harder than Djokovic's 2015 RG with Nadal in the quarters, Murray in the semis, and Wawrinka in the final.

Djokovic RG 15 draw was not easy, but Nadal RG 2007 significantly better than anyone Djokovic faced in RG 15. Hence why I put RG 2007 difficulty over RG 2015 difficulty.
Give Fed RG 2007 the same draw and he wins RG 15.
Lets not completely ignore davy of RG 2007 semi either.

 

[Adv. Edberg]

2012-present has been extremely weak. And it just keeps getting weaker.

 

[Kralingen]

2012-present has been extremely weak. And it just keeps getting weaker.

An era where the 3 best players of all time were 31, 25, 26 years old was weak?

 

[MiamiWeekendWarrior]

But the assumption that Djokovic and Nadal are geriatrics is wrong because it fails to take into context changes in sports. Thanks to scientific improvements in training, diet, nutrition and technological changes in equipment, athletes in general have been able to play very well into what was formerly considered advanced ages. Djokovic and Nadal certainly don't look like they play poorly as they reached amazing shot after amazing shot in the RG semi. They aren't at their peaks, but they haven't fallen off a cliff either. That happens when you're Federer nearing 40.

Nadal just dropped out of Wimbledon and the Olympics due to his body being pretty much broken down.

 

[Adv. Edberg]

An era where the 3 best players of all time were 31, 25, 26 years old was weak?

3 atg. But besides them, barely nobody. So you get to SF in slams and masters without breaking sweat.
In the 90s the field was so much stronger. Not to mention 16 seeds and court variation.

 

[RF-18]

It's supporting wrong stuff like what I described. In your support for Djokovic, you believe whatever helps him win is just and justified.

Haha whaaat so Djokos wins is unjustified? What other way does he win a tennis match other than hitting the damn boll? Lol. What is this.

 

[RF-18]

Hahahaha

 

[mike danny]

Thinking 04-05 is stronger is ridiculous to me so I guess we're at a stalemate here.

I don't think they're stronger, I think they're even with 2015.

 

[d-quik]

grandpa nadal

NADAL ONLY 1 YR OLDER WTF?

federer also lucky with grandpa agassi, schizophrenic safin, and obesity nalbandian omgwtfbbq

 

[mike danny]

Hmm no, AO07 is weak as, 2007 Wimbledon is decent win, 2007 USO again weak. Nothing compares to AO15 Wawrinka + Murray > 2007 Gonzo + Roddick. Wimby15 Fed > Nads 07, USO15 Fed > 07 Nole.

LMAO at 2015 Fed better than 2007 Nadal at Wimb.

USO 2007 had more than just Nole. He went through 3 top 5 players to win. Nole had an easy draw before facing old Roger at 2015 USO. Calling 2007 USO weak is ridiculous.

 

[RS]

I don't think they're stronger, I think they're even with 2015.

2004/2014 is close but 2005 blows 2015 out.

 

[mike danny]

Not as evidence disproving the claim "the current players in their prime consistently lose to the big 3."

Fed has been irrelevant though for a while. How many slams has he won in the last 3 years? He's not a threat to Thiem and the Next Gen, Djokodal are.

So beating Fed is irrelevant.

 

[The Guru]

I don't think they're stronger, I think they're even with 2015.

If you think they’re even it shouldn’t be so hard to conceive of someone thinking 2015 is better but fair enough. I think my general disagreement with you and other Fed fans is how good Fed is on hard courts and how good his opposition is on hard courts. I’m pretty much on board with everything you say about Grasserer (except 09) I just think Feds HC comp and level are overrated and that became pretty clear when Djokodal pretty much dominated him in HC slam matches. Of course he’s one of the best HC players ever I just think his top level is very much overstated.

 

[mike danny]

2004/2014 is close but 2005 blows 2015 out.

Nice bait.

 

[RS]

Nice bait.

True tbh.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Haha whaaat so Djokos wins is unjustified? What other way does he win a tennis match other than hitting the damn boll? Lol. What is this.

Read better duh. Referring to stuff like temper outbursts.

 

[mike danny]

If you think they’re even it shouldn’t be so hard to conceive of someone thinking 2015 is better but fair enough. I think my general disagreement with you and other Fed fans is how good Fed is on hard courts and how good his opposition is on hard courts. I’m pretty much on board with everything you say about Grasserer (except 09) I just think Feds HC comp and level are overrated and that became pretty clear when Djokodal pretty much dominated him in HC slam matches. Of course he’s one of the best HC players ever I just think his top level is very much overstated.

I don't think his level is overstated. He is the only one to win a HC slam 5 times in a row, a HC slam without dropping a set and the only one to win 5+ titles at both HC slams. Also has the most WTF titles.

Federer lost one tight 5 setter vs Nadal at the AO in his prime, that doesn't mean he is overrated LOL. And against Djokovic, most of his losses were after his prime anyway which is normal.

I also don't think Fed's opposition on HC is overrated. Djokovic's really has not been better except for USO 2011 and AO 2012 which were better titles than any Fed has won. But he's also lost slams to players Fed would arguably not lose against.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

If you think they’re even it shouldn’t be so hard to conceive of someone thinking 2015 is better but fair enough. I think my general disagreement with you and other Fed fans is how good Fed is on hard courts and how good his opposition is on hard courts. I’m pretty much on board with everything you say about Grasserer (except 09) I just think Feds HC comp and level are overrated and that became pretty clear when Djokodal pretty much dominated him in HC slam matches. Of course he’s one of the best HC players ever I just think his top level is very much overstated.

Peakovic was MP down to sixth best Federer at the USO leol.

 

[chacmool]

2007 wimbledon odds
Federer R.    Gabashvili T.    1
Federer R.    Del Potro J.M.    1.01
Federer R.    Safin M.    1.02
Federer R.    Haas T.    1.01
Federer R.    Ferrero J.C.    1.01
Federer R.    Gasquet R.    1.08
Federer R.    Nadal R.    1.14
            1.29
                    
2007 USO odds
Federer R.    Jenkins S.    1
Federer R.    Capdeville P.    1
Federer R.    Isner J.    1.01
Federer R.    Lopez F.    1.01
Federer R.    Roddick A.    1.06
Federer R.    Davydenko N.    1.07
Federer R.    Djokovic N.    1.2
        1.39

2015 Wimbledon odds
Djokovic N.    Kohlschreiber P.    1.03
Djokovic N.    Nieminen J.    1.005
Djokovic N.    Tomic B.    1.02
Djokovic N.    Anderson K.    1.03
Djokovic N.    Cilic M.    1.08
Djokovic N.    Gasquet R.    1.06
Djokovic N.    Federer R.    1.83
        2.28

2015 USO odds
Djokovic N.    Souza J.    1
Djokovic N.    Haider-Maurer A.    1.005
Djokovic N.    Seppi A.    1.01
Djokovic N.    Bautista R.    1.005
Djokovic N.    Lopez F.    1.02
Djokovic N.    Cilic M.    1.12
Djokovic N.    Federer R.    1.66
        1.93

source http://www.tennis-data.co.uk/

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Novak Djokovic and the Narrowing Slam Race - Heavy Topspin

Italian translation at settesei.it It doesn’t take a statistician, or even a spreadsheet, to recognize that the 2019 Australian Open wasn’t Novak Djokovic’s most difficult path to a major title. We can debate whether the straight-set win over Rafael Nadal in the final was due to Djokovic’s utter...

www.tennisabstract.com

As per Tennis Abstract, calculating slam difficulty based on opponents faced by the winner, 2002-2004 and 2006 were pretty weak. 2011-2016 were incredibly strong. This doesn't represent the years as a whole, just the majors, but it's hard to argue 2015-2016 are weak era based on the level of competition in majors. I do think 2017-2019 are weaker, but part of that is because a lot of top players were injured during this time. 2020 is just a mess of a year, and 2021 is too early to say.

Year Avg Diff
2002 0.73
2003 0.65
2004 0.82
2005 0.95
2006 0.77
2007 0.93
2008 1.05
2009 1.00
2010 0.95
2011 1.19
2012 1.23
2013 1.22
2014 1.28
2015 1.12
2016 1.27
2017 0.91
2018 0.69

I think 2016 (second half) and 2017-2018 were weak years for sure. 2019 though?

In Australia you had 2x defending champ edged by Tsitsipas, then one of best ever Djokovic destroying in form Nadal.

RG Thiem edged out in form Djokovic going for NCYGS but sadly burned out against Nadal.

W you had one of the greatest ever finals there, in form Fed playing some amazing tennis, defeated Nadal, hitting close to 100 winners , holding double MP but ultimately losing the 12-12 TB.

USO a little weaker due to Fed/Djokovic injuries, but still Medvedev fought well in the final.

Nextgens had many wins in masters and YEC too. No way is 2019 a weak year, definitely above likes of 04, 06, 17, 18.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

LOL @ WIM 15 fed > Nadal 07
bwahahaha
Just the WIm 07 final is enough to make it strong.

Oh and USO 07 Roddick > USO 15 Fed
Fed's draw of Lopez, Roddick, Davy, DJokovic ROFLSTOMPs upon Djokovic's draw of RBA, significantly worse Lopez, injured Cilic, Federer.

Anyone calling USO 07 weak is outta their mind.

3 of the 4 slam runs of fed in 07 tougher than djokovic in 15 (RG, Wim, USO). Only AO was weaker.

Let’s be honest, 2015 is a cut above 2007… top 5 set record for highest atp points ever. Let’s break it down:

AO - 15 hands down. Wawrinka >>> Roddick, Murray >> Gonzalez

RG - close but 07 by virtue of Nadal in final. Djokovic had more tough opponents but Nadal is the strongest single opponent.

W - tie. 07 Nadal and 15 Fed both top opponents.

USO - 15. Fed had more tricky opponents pre final but 15 Federer was better than anyone 07 Fed faced

3/4 slams stronger in 15.

 

[RS]

Let’s be honest, 2015 is a cut above 2007… top 5 set record for highest atp points ever. Let’s break it down:

AO - 15 hands down. Wawrinka >>> Roddick, Murray >> Gonzalez

RG - close but 07 by virtue of Nadal in final. Djokovic had more tough opponents but Nadal is the strongest single opponent.

W - tie. 07 Nadal and 15 Fed both top opponents.

USO - 15. Fed had more tricky opponents pre final but 15 Federer was better than anyone Djokovic faced

3/4 slams stronger in 15.

Thread?

 

[skip1969]

weak era /wēk ˈirə/
noun
a distinct period of tennis history with the particular feature or characteristic being that the player you irrationally hate the most was dominant, resulting in you being super salty.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Thread?

Do it

 

[BTURNER]

Social media and a lack of interest in sports from younger generation today compared to in the past. Tennis and many other sports evidently have not improved any more and at best, have remained at the same level.

If this era was respectable, Federer, Djokovic and Nadal would have been forced to retire the way the likes of Sampras retired Mcenroe and the way the likes of Federer retired the likes of Sampras. THe fact that such a thing has not happened, is evidence of this current era being a joke.

Any other conclusion is based in delusion!

Well at least you are providing a logical and intriguing theory as to why, and you are not using specific player performances as evidence which was what I asked for. You have not provided evidence yourself of these multi-sport cross-cultural flounderings .... but you have a rationale as to why things might have plateaued which is a lot more than 90% of these arguments come up with.

 

[MiamiWeekendWarrior]

weak era /wēk ˈirə/
noun
a distinct period of tennis history with the particular feature or characteristic being that the player you irrational hate the most was dominant, resulting in you being super salty.

Nah. Fed and Nadal are two of my favorite players. I think they have achieved the pinnacle of talent combined with skill and until there is another technological revolution in the sport, the next gen(s) of players will not be able to surpass the level of play the big 3 have brought to the sport. The improvement in play we've seen every new generation has come to a standstill. The next gen's level is not improving upon the previous gen's level.

Imagine if today's game looked no different than the game during the Borg/Mac/Connors era.

 

[mike danny]

Nah. Fed and Nadal are two of my favorite players. I think they have achieved the pinnacle of talent combined with skill and until there is another technological revolution in the sport, the next gen(s) of players will not be able to surpass the level of play the big 3 have brought to the sport. The improvement in play we've seen every new generation has come to a standstill. The next gen's level is not improving upon the previous gen's level.

Imagine if today's game looked no different than the game during the Borg/Mac/Connors era.

So has Djokovic though. All 3 have achieved the pinnacle and it's not their fault that the generations after them are useless.

 

[The Guru]

Peakovic was MP down to sixth best Federer at the USO leol.

Djokovic straight setted prime Fed twice leol

 

[MiamiWeekendWarrior]

So has Djokovic though. All 3 have achieved the pinnacle and it's not their fault that the generations after them are useless.

I understand that. That's why he's in the big 3. I just don't like him, which is why I said Fed and Nadal are two of my favorite players.

 

[mike danny]

I understand that. That's why he's in the big 3. I just don't like him, which is why I said Fed and Nadal are two of my favorite players.

That's fair, I'm not a fan of Djokodal, but I admit both and Fed have reached the pinnacle of the sport.

 

[Sunny014]

Hmm no, AO07 is weak as, 2007 Wimbledon is decent win, 2007 USO again weak. Nothing compares to AO15 Wawrinka + Murray > 2007 Gonzo + Roddick. Wimby15 Fed > Nads 07, USO15 Fed > 07 Nole.

Why are these Wawrinkas and Moorays rated ahead of Roddick?

Wawrinka the clown has never beaten Fed outside clay, he has lost like 20 freakin times, Roddick has stretched peak Federer on Grass in ways that not even Moorey could in slams.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Djokovic straight setted prime Fed twice leol

Just the fаg-end level of prime if that. Still, Djokovic is better at the AO overall, sure, and likely has the higher aggregate peak. The USO is another matter. Wimbledon even more so. RG, Djokovic is better overall by doing better pre-prime and post-prime but their primes are evenish with Fed a shade better at peak.

 

[Sunny014]

Wawrinka is even below Nalbandian when we are discussing Federer

Reason : Nablandian has some glorious wins over Peak Federer while Wawrinka has been a mouse despite being 4 years younger.

 

[duaneeo]

Nothing compares to AO15 Wawrinka + Murray > 2007 Gonzo + Roddick.

Since 2010, Stan Wawrinka and Andy Murray have gone 2-11 vs past-prime Federer at the slams. If peak 2007 Federer had faced these two pigeons at any slam, it would've been a day at the bakery.

And, 07 AO Roger also beat Djokovic. It amazes me that Nole fans view the older/past-prime/declining Federer as an ATG competitor, but view the younger/pre-prime/improving Djokovic as a juvenile competitor not worthy of mentioning.

 

[vex]

Well, Fed's era wasn't weak either in that case. Still did not stop the Djoko fans for calling it weak for 10 years.

It was dumb then and it’s dumb now. Fed could have played a bunch of 3.0 players his whole career. He’d still be Fed. Opponents don’t determine your own level.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Fed was a bad matchup for Stan but Stan did more against Nadal/Nole than GenMUG has done since 2014. That has to count for something. These guys either lose, or need to eek out wins against the Geriatrics

 

[NoleFam]

2015 is about on par with 2004. 2007 is better.

Not according to tennis abstract and Uts.

 

[King No1e]

If this isn’t the villain then I don’t know who is

https://imgur.com/a/KKf63T1

Yep. Fed is that antagonist that we don't root for but still think he's cool.

 

[mike danny]

Not according to tennis abstract and Uts.

Stats can say whatever they want. I watched and researched all years and there's nothing to me that puts 2015 ahead.

Heck, Fed's paths to his major titles in 2004 was even harder than Novak's in 2015. Outside RG of course.

 

[adil1972]

Should not there be indoor grand slam

How about change WTF to ATP men indoor slam

Forgive me for not mention women in this post

because 99.99% posts here are about male players in this forum

 

[NatF]

Stats can say whatever they want. I watched and researched all years and there's nothing to me that puts 2015 ahead.

Heck, Fed's paths to his major titles in 2004 was even harder than Novak's in 2015. Outside RG of course.

Kuerten, Nalbandian, Gaudio and Coria is up there tbh Depends how highly you rate Stan.