Who has the better serve - Djokovic or Federer -and why

Born_to_slice · Nov 8, 2023

junior74 said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but absolutely. That thing he does with his legs (I know that gives him extra power) and what happens with the left hand is...not pretty.

None of his prep and the takeback is pretty as well.

Look how his squat looks in the trophy pose. Very clunky and rough.

It's still (one of) the best serve ever for his height but it's not pretty (it was actually much prettier when his motion was simpler when he was very young).

Novak looks way more fluid and stress free in his serve motion.

Pheasant · Nov 8, 2023

nachiket nolefam said:
I think 2011 we will have to see. Even with federers serve I don't want to give Nole a definite win.

2021 possible but his problem was his injury/fatigue so not so sure.

2015 is interesting. I never thought Nole served bad in the match but who knows. Maybe.

Those are all fair points. But consider this:

2019: Med won 40.2% of his return points on hard courts that year. That is incredible. Here are his worst RPW% matches that year on hard courts.
1. 21.6% vs Kyrgios in Washington, a very fast surface for hard courts. It's rated level 4(5 is the fastest).
2. 22.2% vs Zverev in Turin; the court that Med complained was the fastest.
3. 22.9% vs Fed on the very-slow Miami court(level 2, where 1 is the slowest). By comparison, Med won 24.3% of his return points vs Opelka on that slow Miami court.

As for Djoker in 2019, here are Med's return point win% that year against Djoker:
AO: 34.9%
Cinci: 30.4%-very fast hard court, far tougher to return serves here vs Miami.

Med vs Djoker in 2021 on hard courts, RPW%
AO: 32.1%. Djoker's ace% was 3.8% vs Med
Paris Masters: 37.2%. Djoker's ace% was 7.0%.
USO: 38.0%. Djoker's ace% was 6.5%.

Fed's ace% was 10%+ in all 3 matches that he faced Med on hard courts from 2018-19.
Djoker's ace% ranged from 3.6% to 8.7% vs Med on hard courts, in 13 tries(6 times, was less than 5%)

And Fed was declining each year. Med didn't get 2015-2017 Fed.

Fed's 1st serve win% by year
2015: 80.6%; despite facing Djoker 6 times, Stan twice, and MuryGOAT once.
2016: 80.4%
2017: 79.2%
2018: 78.9%
2019: 78.1%

Djoker with 2015 Fed's serves would have been banned permanently from the ATP. He'd probably win 85% of his first serves, given his ridiculous ground game to back it up. That's just serving. Toss in the best return game in history and yeah, I see 3 CYGS.

ghostofMecir · Nov 8, 2023

nachiket nolefam said:
Just watch their matches in Dubai 2015, oh man. Nole should have won that match. Fed serve was extreme there. If serve is neutralized then fed has to play at his extreme to be competitive vs Rafole.

We’re talking about matches a player “should have won” now?

ghostofMecir · Nov 8, 2023

Born_to_slice said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but absolutely. That thing he does with his legs (I know that gives him extra power) and what happens with the left hand is...not pretty.

None of his prep and the takeback is pretty as well.

Look how his squat looks in the trophy pose. Very clunky and rough.

It's still (one of) the best serve ever for his height but it's not pretty (it was actually much prettier when his motion was simpler when he was very young).

Novak looks way more fluid and stress free in his serve motion.

Lol extreme fanboyism. Your idol and god even imitated the prettiness and style of Federer’s serve.

Born_to_slice · Nov 8, 2023

ghostofMecir said:
Lol extreme fanboyism. Your idol and god even imitated the prettiness and style of Federer’s serve.

You are blind or don't know much about tennis. Probably both. Also, as someone who's allegedly Mecir's fan, you should appreciate cat-like movement of Novak. Furthermore, Novak is not my idol, let alone god. That's just stupid.

NoleFam · Nov 8, 2023

Not really a debate. Definitely Federer.

ghostofMecir · Nov 8, 2023

Born_to_slice said:
You are blind or don't know much about tennis. Probably both. Also, as someone who's allegedly Mecir's fan, you should appreciate cat-like movement of Novak. Furthermore, Novak is not my idol, let alone god. That's just stupid.

I’m assuming English isn’t your first language, so I’ll explain. Your hero literally imitated Federer’s serve and its aesthetic quality when he did his impressions. Think about that.

Btw, I saw Mecir play live as a kid—he was one of my dad’s favorite players. I played college tennis.

Holmes · Nov 8, 2023

As a Federer fan, it pains me to admit the difference is far less than what the hyperbole of some of my fellow fans would lead one to believe. Nevertheless, I think we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that Roger's serve has the clear edge in this comparison of peers.

RS · Nov 8, 2023

Holmes said:
As a Federer fan, it pains me to admit the difference is far less than what the hyperbole of some of my fellow fans would lead one to believe. Nevertheless, I think we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that Roger's serve has the clear edge in this comparison of peers.

Why is difference far less?

Holmes · Nov 8, 2023

ghostofMecir said:
Lol extreme fanboyism. Your idol and god even imitated the prettiness and style of Federer’s serve.

He also imitated Becker's backhand when they worked together.

Federer has the better serve but it was never a Sampras tier, either aesthetically or technically.

NoleFam · Nov 8, 2023

Reading some of the replies, it's Federer but not by a mile like some are saying though. Djokovic's serve when he was under Becker was arguably even more lethal than it is now because he hit his 2nd serve bigger. You want to see it at its most potent, I would say the 2015 Wimbledon final. Came up with some great serves under pressure in that match and really went toe to toe with Federer in that department which is no easy task.

Born_to_slice · Nov 8, 2023

ghostofMecir said:
I’m assuming English isn’t your first language, so I’ll explain. Your hero literally imitated Federer’s serve and its aesthetic quality when he did his impressions. Think about that.

Btw, I saw Mecir play live as a kid—he was one of my dad’s favorite players. I played college tennis.

Djokovic jokingly imitated Sharapova Nadal, Volandri, Hidalgo and Roddick as well. He liked to imitate other players. Nothing to do with his own serve how it looks now.

RelentlessAttack · Nov 8, 2023

nachiket nolefam said:
Federer. Djokovic has Medvedev sinner alcaraz

Fed had Djokovic Thiem Nadal

Poor Murray lol.

I agree though. Young Federer also played some great returners - Agassi, Hewitt, Nalby. Whatever else people want to say about those guys they were good on return

Kralingen · Nov 8, 2023

It’s not particularly close. Every possible quantifiable statistic is in Federer’s favour significantly.

johnmccabe · Nov 8, 2023

threehandedbackhand said:
Roger. His serve is several tiers above Novak's.

Lethal weapon. Rock solid, highly efficient, and brutally ruthless.
Over 11,000 aces.
Imagine a big tournament, the most important service point, fast surface. Nobody stands a chance against Roger's serve.

As a Federer fan, this is not objective. Djokovic serves are improving very fast recently. Wouldn't be surprised if Novak becomes as effective as Roger eventually.

nolefam_2024 · Nov 8, 2023

RelentlessAttack said:
Poor Murray lol.

I agree though. Young Federer also played some great returners - Agassi, Hewitt, Nalby. Whatever else people want to say about those guys they were good on return

The question was at 36 years age. Murray is far better than Thiem and even better than Nadal on RoS but he declined at the same age when Fed reached 36.

ghostofMecir · Nov 8, 2023

Born_to_slice said:
Djokovic jokingly imitated Sharapova Nadal, Volandri, Hidalgo and Roddick as well. He liked to imitate other players. Nothing to do with his own serve how it looks now.

Yes, he imitated them, but what he imitated about Federer was the exaggerated aestheticness and prettiness of Federer’s serve and game. Look at the things he imitated about the others — they are things that everyone closely associates with them and that everyone universally recognizes, which is what makes the imitations (and all good invitations), so good. That’s what the discussion is about. If someone were to imitate, Djokovic, there’s many things that they might, but it would not be an exaggerated aesthetic, nurse, or prettiness of his game because that’s not what anybody associates with him.

I hope you understand.

Robert F · Nov 8, 2023

Federer all the way with his ability to spot serve so well. Winning 45 second games.

I think we are looking so favorably at Djokovic's serve for a few reasons.
1.) It is better. Better placement and pace. So it makes us ask the question if it is great as Fed's. But the improvement doesn't take us to Fed's level. Still lacking the level of variety, spin and placement.
2.) There are a lot of big servers on tour, but no monster servers are active like Isner/Roddick/Karlovic, so it sort of elevates our impression of everyone's serve to a higher tier.
3.) Federer backed up his game with his serve, Djokovic is backing up his serve with his game. So the stability of Djoker's game allows him to take some risk once in a while and end a game or big point with a big serve. For Fed he could do it with 2-4 serves in a row. For Djoker he only needs it for 1-2 serves and lets the rest of his game do the talking.

Sudacafan · Nov 8, 2023

I am requesting this thread to be deleted, and the OP to be banned immediately.
After 40-15, this is an irritating provocation.

7he0utsider · Nov 8, 2023

Azure said:
Federer but Djokovic is such a great returner that he makes up and probably goes beyond fed as a serve-return package

Not only is that beyond the scope of the question, but also it's complete and utter speculation.

GabeT · Nov 8, 2023

jl809 said:
Federer, and I am saying this because I have eyes and a brain. Djoker's serve was absolutely mid for an ATG until 2020ish, whereas Fed's was already rocking in the mid 00s and got stronger and stronger from there. Since Djoker got a good one under Goran, the Wambulance Martyrdom Brigade have been creaming themselves like he's prime PETE, but this doesn't change the overall picture of the two of them. Fed's issue was that his ROS was so bad sometimes that it made Djoker and Ned's serves look far more potent than they really were

If this is true, why are you posting at TTW? We don’t want your kind here.
Reported

2five8 · Nov 9, 2023

nachiket nolefam said:
I would bet serving out of trouble isn't unique to Federer. Even Cilic would do the same.

Federer game depended on serve a lot. And Djokovic has superior baseline game. So even if Djokovic plays a little worse on serve than Federer, his overall game becomes better.

Take serve away from Federer and he would struggle mightily vs Djokovic Nadal and even Andy Murray. It was his weapon. It isn't Djokovic's weapon apart from a few tournaments.

Just can’t admit Fed is a better server. Clearly fanboy blinders are in full effect

Rovesciarete · Nov 9, 2023

Federer had the better serve but I also think that the level of returning has been going up during his career so it is remarkable that his numbers have not declined over the years until the last three. The most likely explanation is that by improving he kept them stable.

Tour-Level Seasons Top

Mouse over column headers (on all tables) for stat definitions. Click on years for results from that season.

Year	Hld%	A%	DF%	1stIn	1st%	2nd%	SPW
2021	87.1%	8.5%	0.9%	65.8%	73.5%	56.8%	67.8%
2020	86.0%	9.7%	1.9%	66.0%	74.2%	53.0%	67.0%
2019	91.2%	9.8%	2.1%	64.7%	78.1%	59.4%	71.5%
2018	91.1%	12.1%	2.5%	62.0%	80.3%	58.5%	72.0%
2017	91.3%	12.5%	2.3%	62.2%	79.8%	59.5%	72.1%
2016	89.9%	10.9%	2.2%	62.4%	79.9%	56.3%	71.0%
2015	91.9%	11.5%	2.4%	63.9%	80.1%	57.3%	71.9%
2014	90.7%	9.9%	1.9%	63.9%	78.7%	57.9%	71.2%
2013	86.9%	8.8%	2.1%	62.6%	76.5%	55.3%	68.6%
2012	91.0%	10.7%	1.9%	62.9%	77.7%	59.9%	71.1%
2011	89.6%	9.5%	1.8%	63.7%	78.7%	57.1%	70.9%
2010	89.3%	11.1%	1.9%	61.9%	78.2%	56.3%	69.9%
2009	90.1%	11.0%	2.2%	62.5%	79.4%	57.0%	71.0%
2008	89.2%	11.3%	1.2%	64.1%	76.9%	57.9%	70.1%
2007	89.2%	10.4%	1.5%	61.9%	77.3%	59.0%	70.3%
2006	90.2%	8.8%	1.6%	62.7%	76.7%	58.9%	70.1%
2005	89.2%	9.1%	2.3%	62.9%	76.3%	58.6%	69.8%
2004	91.6%	10.1%	2.8%	61.6%	78.2%	57.6%	70.3%
2003	87.1%	10.3%	3.9%	59.5%	76.8%	56.1%	68.4%
2002	86.0%	9.0%	3.5%	59.9%	75.8%	53.5%	66.9%
2001	83.4%	9.1%	3.5%	59.6%	74.4%	52.6%	65.6%
2000	82.1%	8.3%	4.2%	58.5%	72.2%	52.4%	64.0%
1999	75.7%	6.1%	4.5%	57.6%	70.4%	48.9%	61.3%
1998	76.1%	7.8%	4.5%	55.5%	70.8%	50.4%	61.7%
Career	88.8%	10.0%	2.4%	62.1%	77.3%	56.8%	69.5%

Rovesciarete · Nov 9, 2023

NOVAK Tour-Level Seasons Top

Mouse over column headers (on all tables) for stat definitions. Click on years for results from that season.

Year	Hld%	A%	DF%	1stIn	1st%	2nd%	SPW
2023	88.7%	8.1%	3.6%	63.7%	76.7%	57.2%	69.6%
2022	87.9%	8.0%	2.5%	65.6%	77.2%	56.5%	70.1%
2021	87.6%	9.3%	3.1%	64.8%	76.8%	54.4%	68.9%
2020	86.1%	7.8%	3.8%	64.3%	75.4%	52.9%	67.4%
2019	88.0%	7.8%	3.4%	66.0%	76.3%	56.8%	69.7%
2018	87.3%	6.8%	3.0%	66.2%	74.1%	56.9%	68.3%
2017	83.8%	5.3%	2.5%	66.0%	72.5%	53.3%	66.0%
2016	86.4%	5.4%	3.4%	64.9%	73.5%	56.0%	67.4%
2015	89.5%	7.3%	2.1%	66.4%	74.4%	60.2%	69.7%
2014	87.7%	8.0%	2.0%	66.7%	75.0%	56.4%	68.8%
2013	88.0%	8.2%	2.0%	65.8%	74.9%	59.6%	69.7%
2012	87.2%	7.7%	2.3%	64.1%	74.9%	56.3%	68.2%
2011	86.4%	6.3%	2.6%	65.3%	74.1%	55.6%	67.7%
2010	82.2%	5.2%	4.8%	64.1%	70.8%	52.0%	64.1%
2009	84.5%	7.0%	3.7%	63.0%	72.8%	53.7%	65.7%
2008	86.8%	8.3%	2.6%	65.0%	73.7%	56.6%	67.7%
2007	83.9%	7.5%	2.8%	64.1%	72.3%	53.9%	65.7%
2006	81.3%	6.9%	3.7%	62.8%	71.8%	52.6%	64.6%
2005	74.7%	5.2%	3.4%	63.4%	69.7%	47.6%	61.6%
2004	63.0%	7.0%	5.6%	62.4%	60.8%	43.6%	54.3%
Career	86.1%	7.2%	3.0%	64.9%	74.1%	55.5%	67.5%

Overall there is a roughly 3% gap in aces and first serves games won but only 1.3% in second serve games won. Roger was clearly a step atop of the other big 3 as a server.

Born_to_slice · Nov 9, 2023

ghostofMecir said:
Yes, he imitated them, but what he imitated about Federer was the exaggerated aestheticness and prettiness of Federer’s serve and game. Look at the things he imitated about the others — they are things that everyone closely associates with them and that everyone universally recognizes, which is what makes the imitations (and all good invitations), so good. That’s what the discussion is about. If someone were to imitate, Djokovic, there’s many things that they might, but it would not be an exaggerated aesthetic, nurse, or prettiness of his game because that’s not what anybody associates with him.

I hope you understand.

Actually, Djokovic didn't imitate Federer's serve at all, just his fh, bh, volleys and most of all smugness of his walk and head movement.

Anyway, I like Federer's tennis but I don't think his serve motion is too beautiful and I prefer Novak's motion to his.

Azure · Nov 9, 2023

7he0utsider said:
Not only is that beyond the scope of the question, but also it's complete and utter speculation.

Lets see my statement-

Azure said:
Federer but Djokovic is such a great returner that he makes up and probably goes beyond fed as a serve-return package

You guys don’t read lol. I already answered the question and offered a speculation but you got your panties in a twist nevertheless.

nolefam_2024 · Nov 9, 2023

2five8 said:
Just can’t admit Fed is a better server. Clearly fanboy blinders are in full effect

Hey new user welcome to people's ignore list soon

junior74 · Nov 9, 2023

Born_to_slice said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but absolutely. That thing he does with his legs (I know that gives him extra power) and what happens with the left hand is...not pretty.

None of his prep and the takeback is pretty as well.

Look how his squat looks in the trophy pose. Very clunky and rough.

I could also find one of those Novak serves where he almost falls because he is out of balance and then post a perfect slo-mo Federer serve, supported by a symphonic orchestra

Not a fan of Novak's dandy wrist at the start of the motion and he lands too deep (like Murray) a lot of the time, especially on 2nd serves.

I think we should be able to disagree without "bursting bubbles" (

)

cortadew · Nov 9, 2023

I love how fed fanboys are the ones using the "weak era" argument now

ghostofMecir · Nov 9, 2023

Born_to_slice said:
Actually, Djokovic didn't imitate Federer's serve at all, just his fh, bh, volleys and most of all smugness of his walk and head movement.

Anyway, I like Federer's tennis but I don't think his serve motion is too beautiful and I prefer Novak's motion to his.

That’s only one — there were others.

Ray Mercer · Nov 9, 2023

Only a moron would select Djokovic. Someone needs to do a heavy sweep of the posters on this board.

BorgTheGOAT · Nov 9, 2023

tennis_pro said:
You could make an argument for Fed having the best serve ever for his height. Djokovic has developed a really reliable serve over the years, but there's really no comparison.

There are matches like the 2014 Wimbledon final where Fed pushed Djokovic to the brink on his serve alone.

He has the same height as Pete so I would disagree. He however clearly has a better serve than Novak.

BorgTheGOAT · Nov 9, 2023

Not sure whether the thread is a troll attempt but only a certified ignoramus would think that Djo could have a better serve than Fed.

Born_to_slice · Nov 9, 2023

ghostofMecir said:
That’s only one — there were others.

That's the only Fed I know he did, you're welcome to find another.

tudwell · Nov 9, 2023

Rovesciarete said:
Federer had the better serve but I also think that the level of returning has been going up during his career so it is remarkable that his numbers have not declined over the years until the last three. The most likely explanation is that by improving he kept them stable.

Tour-Level Seasons Top
Mouse over column headers (on all tables) for stat definitions. Click on years for results from that season.

Year
Hld%
A%
DF%
1stIn
1st%
2nd%
SPW
2021
87.1%
8.5%
0.9%
65.8%
73.5%
56.8%
67.8%
2020
86.0%
9.7%
1.9%
66.0%
74.2%
53.0%
67.0%
2019
91.2%
9.8%
2.1%
64.7%
78.1%
59.4%
71.5%
2018
91.1%
12.1%
2.5%
62.0%
80.3%
58.5%
72.0%
2017
91.3%
12.5%
2.3%
62.2%
79.8%
59.5%
72.1%
2016
89.9%
10.9%
2.2%
62.4%
79.9%
56.3%
71.0%
2015
91.9%
11.5%
2.4%
63.9%
80.1%
57.3%
71.9%
2014
90.7%
9.9%
1.9%
63.9%
78.7%
57.9%
71.2%
2013
86.9%
8.8%
2.1%
62.6%
76.5%
55.3%
68.6%
2012
91.0%
10.7%
1.9%
62.9%
77.7%
59.9%
71.1%
2011
89.6%
9.5%
1.8%
63.7%
78.7%
57.1%
70.9%
2010
89.3%
11.1%
1.9%
61.9%
78.2%
56.3%
69.9%
2009
90.1%
11.0%
2.2%
62.5%
79.4%
57.0%
71.0%
2008
89.2%
11.3%
1.2%
64.1%
76.9%
57.9%
70.1%
2007
89.2%
10.4%
1.5%
61.9%
77.3%
59.0%
70.3%
2006
90.2%
8.8%
1.6%
62.7%
76.7%
58.9%
70.1%
2005
89.2%
9.1%
2.3%
62.9%
76.3%
58.6%
69.8%
2004
91.6%
10.1%
2.8%
61.6%
78.2%
57.6%
70.3%
2003
87.1%
10.3%
3.9%
59.5%
76.8%
56.1%
68.4%
2002
86.0%
9.0%
3.5%
59.9%
75.8%
53.5%
66.9%
2001
83.4%
9.1%
3.5%
59.6%
74.4%
52.6%
65.6%
2000
82.1%
8.3%
4.2%
58.5%
72.2%
52.4%
64.0%
1999
75.7%
6.1%
4.5%
57.6%
70.4%
48.9%
61.3%
1998
76.1%
7.8%
4.5%
55.5%
70.8%
50.4%
61.7%
Career
88.8%
10.0%
2.4%
62.1%
77.3%
56.8%
69.5%

Wow, these numbers just hit home how big the gap is here. From Fed's breakthrough in 2004 up through his last full season in 2019, he had precisely one year where he failed to hold at least 89% of the time – the injury-riddled 2013. That's 15 of 16 seasons.

In contrast, Djokovic has only had one year in his entire career where he's held 89% of the time – 2015. Fed's just at a different level.

Hawks9451 · Nov 9, 2023

threehandedbackhand said:
Imagine a big tournament, the most important service point, fast surface. Nobody stands a chance against Roger's serve.

I'd bet my life

BorgTheGOAT · Nov 9, 2023

W 2001 against Pete, AO 2008 R32 against Tipsarevic, W 2006 and 2007 finals, W 2009 F, FO 2011 SF, Fed has so many great serve performances, he is by far the best server of the big three. Djokovic isn’t bad either, but Fed is the next tier to the GOAT servers.

2five8 · Nov 10, 2023

Born_to_slice said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but absolutely. That thing he does with his legs (I know that gives him extra power) and what happens with the left hand is...not pretty.

None of his prep and the takeback is pretty as well.

Look how his squat looks in the trophy pose. Very clunky and rough.

It's still (one of) the best serve ever for his height but it's not pretty (it was actually much prettier when his motion was simpler when he was very young).

Novak looks way more fluid and stress free in his serve motion.

What the actual…….???? You say Feds old serve was better yet call it “clunky” and then post an old pic of Fed from over 15 years ago? Never realized how blind fandom love makes you imagine things, like Feds serve clunky but not the lord Novak though right? Doesn’t look like stick is somewhere it shouldn’t be when Novak serves.

2five8 · Nov 10, 2023

nachiket nolefam said:
Hey new user welcome to people's ignore list soon

Oh cool, I’ve been around for a longgggg time but don’t post much. If I can get blocked by delusional Novak fans then that’s great! The less I hear the whining you guys do all the time, the better!

Born_to_slice · Nov 10, 2023

2five8 said:
What the actual…….???? You say Feds old serve was better yet call it “clunky” and then post an old pic of Fed from over 15 years ago? Never realized how blind fandom love makes you imagine things, like Feds serve clunky but not the lord Novak though right? Doesn’t look like stick is somewhere it shouldn’t be when Novak serves.

I didn't say it was better, just that it was better looking when Federer was very young (younger than on the photo I posted). Also, I have no problem saying Novak serve was not good looking before and kind of ugly when Woodbridge worked with him.

thrust · Nov 10, 2023

threehandedbackhand said:
Roger. His serve is several tiers above Novak's.

Lethal weapon. Rock solid, highly efficient, and brutally ruthless.
Over 11,000 aces.
Imagine a big tournament, the most important service point, fast surface. Nobody stands a chance against Roger's serve.

Except Novak in the 19 Wimbledon final? Both had great serves, IMO, just about even.

Who has the better serve - Djokovic or Federer -and why

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