Well, if you are going to succumb to the mindset of average club player, then you probably deserve the backhand you have. If you're willing to actually play tennis as a sport and put some sweat into it, there's no reason that anyone cannot learn a Gasquet style one hander. I've taught it to several youngsters who just didn't feel comfortable with the two handed backhand. Of course they still need work, but all them were pretty comfortable with a high take back and big shoulder turn. The hardest thing was getting them to really swing the racquet and accept that they were going to miss and hit some balls over the fence.
why blake's backhand sucks
- Thread starter m27
- Start date
Well, if you are going to succumb to the mindset of average club player, then you probably deserve the backhand you have. If you're willing to actually play tennis as a sport and put some sweat into it, there's no reason that anyone cannot learn a Gasquet style one hander. I've taught it to several youngsters who just didn't feel comfortable with the two handed backhand. Of course they still need work, but all them were pretty comfortable with a high take back and big shoulder turn. The hardest thing was getting them to really swing the racquet and accept that they were going to miss and hit some balls over the fence.
rubberduckies
Professional
dennis10is
Banned
If you are a top junior or a top D1 prospect, I will believe that some technical aspects of your backhand may be better but aside from that I can't see it.
His backhand has withstood Roddick 140 mph serves, and Nadal's big forehand. How many pretty 1bh from people here can even come close to that?
I'm two galaxies away from Blake but when I hit my normal rally topspin to self-described tennis experts who spent 30 years playing park tennis, they can't handle my shots with their "technically" sound strokes. If I lay wood on my strokes to Blake's backhand I'm sure he'll say, "Dennis, when are you going to start hitting the ball?"
People have no idea how much of a cream puff their shots are compared to a world class pro.
split-step
Professional
Do you realise how funny your post is?
stormholloway
Legend
His backhand, given that he's a professional, leaves a lot to be desired and it definitely not a model to copy. Federer's is the best model to copy I think. It's classic and has no technical faults.
Blake's balance, footwork, and action are all off.
Blake's balance, footwork, and action are all off.
Well, I laughed a little reading it again quoted in your post.
dennis10is
Banned
You should thank BeHappy. I didn't say anything important and no research to speak of
One thing I've learned as a psychologist is that procedural and declarative knowledge of the same topic are vastly different with little overlap.
I'll have to show it to you some time. It's really pretty good technically. I've gotten lots of compliments, and I've had a lot of players decide that my backhand is the better shot and start hitting to my forehand. (All part of my plan. ;-) )
Well, not many. How many of us get a chance to even practice with someone close to that level. Very few. It's incredibly difficult to improve your game without excellent players to hit with.
That's probably true for a lot of people, but I think that there is also a group of players that just hit too hard and don't have consistent control. I mean look at Fernando Gonzalez. He has a monster forehand and a backhand slice that he can't even hit offensively. Sometimes he hits that thing 5 or 6 times in a row. Pace is overrated at times.
What's missing from most people's game is footwork. If I could just borrow Blake's legs, I could jump to 5.5 overnight.
I got to go run more. :-(
D
Deleted member 25923
Guest
If Blake's backhand sucks, what do we call Feliciano Lopez's backhand?
lawlitssoo1n
Professional
blake has a flat backhand
dennis10is
Banned
Somebody has to show me how to break up a quote like you did with mine so that I can reply to each point.
I don't doubt that your backhand is technically sound. Sounds like we have the same game too.
I don't know if you seen Gonzo live playing against lesser players, say below top 30 or so but what he does against guys who are not Fed, Nadal, Murray etc.. is he would hit many consecutive slice to their backhand corner and dare them to hit dtl to his forehand. He's very accurate, because he has to slice his backhand, deep into their backhand corner. His opponent would run around their backhand but because of the placement they don't have an angle to hit away from his forehand. They can crush it back to his backhand but he would just slice it back deep. Now, if he missed the slice and hit it to the middle of the court, he's dead because his opponent will have an angle to hit sharp cross-court. Then, he would step in and rip a topspin backhand winner down the line.
this post originated in another thread, but I decided it would be a shame to put all this effort into it only for it to be buried on page 3 of some obscure thread where nobody would ever see it.
anyway, a picture is worth a thousand words. lets look at three players whose backhands kicks ass, and one whose sucks:
ONE OF THESE DOES NOT BELONG
for whom it is not apparent...
1) look at the position of blake's racquet. the top is barely in line with his shoulders. federer, gasquet, and kuerten all have their racquets way back and up; you cant even see their elbows. blake's elbow is down between shoulder and waist height and clearly visible. you might think he's halfway through his stroke, but this is the farthest point of his backswing.
2) look at the shoulder rotation of each player. every angle is slightly different, but you can see that every player (except blake) has massive shoulder rotation and is showing their back to their opponent. blake is side-on to his opponent, or possibly even a bit open.
3) look at the legs of each player. they all have quite wide stances with their weight far behind the front foot (laterally); ie, if they were to lift up their rear leg, they would fall backwards. blake's feet are far too close together and his front leg is tucked in instead of being out. this leads to poor balance and ineffective weight transfer.
again, one of these does not belong. look at his legs. look at how little his torso and shoulder have moved since the beginning of the stroke and compare it with other players.
for those of you who think I used a particularly bad video of blake... the video that I got these images from was posted by Bungalo Bill as an ideal model backhand.
anyway, I'm sure his response to this thread will be as unintelligible as his posts in the aforementioned thread. from the rest of you, I would appreciate some feedback.
The only thing that doesn't belong here is you.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Just saw J Blake hit some pretty sweet BH shots in his 1st round AO match against Dancevic. I can really appreciate the simplicity of the Blake BH. For more advanced players, I'd look to Federer or Gasquet. However, for most players, Blake or Sampras would probably be a better place to start as a model to emulate.
Federer & Gasquet have a bit too much flair -- extra kinetic chain links -- that average players should probably not emulate. I've seen far too many players employ far too much torso rotation in an effort to emulate those added links.
stormholloway
Legend
I'm not seeing anything superfluous in Federer's shot. I just think there's a lot of rotation and his footwork is really good, better than Blake's.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ The thing is that there should not be a lot of rotation for most one-handed BH shots. The torso should stop rotating rather early -- as the forward swing starts -- so that there is a very complete kinetic tranfer to the arm and racket. Fed actually does this most of the time.
However, his front shoulder moves quite a bit more than his back shoulder -- which is fine. On his follow-thru, you will usually see an extra measure of forearm supination and a bit of wristy-ness. It is these extras that players often try to copy and end up moving the back shoulder too much -- resulting in torso rotation late in the foward swing.
However, his front shoulder moves quite a bit more than his back shoulder -- which is fine. On his follow-thru, you will usually see an extra measure of forearm supination and a bit of wristy-ness. It is these extras that players often try to copy and end up moving the back shoulder too much -- resulting in torso rotation late in the foward swing.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
This is biggest difference. (more flair)
They have a higher take-back (especially Qasquet), and a much more magnified follow-thru>>> making it "nicer" to look at. As for the forward momentum, they are all very similar and have all the "mechanical parts" that make this shot work.
Blakes backhand is textbook (without the flair). Simple, and very easy to use when emulating what the stroke should look at, and why it is a sound stroke.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
I agree. He "Fails" big time>>> not only in this thread>> but on the boards.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
this post originated in another thread, but I decided it would be a shame to put all this effort into it only for it to be buried on page 3 of some obscure thread where nobody would ever see it.
anyway, a picture is worth a thousand words. lets look at three players whose backhands kicks ass, and one whose sucks:
Whos backhand kicks ars and whos doesnt????? Isnt Federers weaker stroke, his backhand? LOL!!!!!!
Nice twist to support your claims.
Can you please provide the VIDEOS for these strokes? I want to see WHERE in the swing these players were when the photo was snapped and WHAT kind of ball they are hitting. In other words, Blakes racquet did rise higher on the photo you are showing. Granted not much higher but he was also hitting a ball coming directly at him. Therefore, just by the footwork he had to doo, Blake had to take a short quick stroke to hit on time.
Further, because the ball was hit right at him, the quick response, setup, and weight transfer had to happen real quick. I am sure a player of your caliber would know that when a ball is hit right at you and you need to prepare real quick, it is very difficult to get set and take a long full swing at the ball as you are trying to describe.
Can you please provide the videos for the others so we can make sure you are comparing correctly?
The bottom-line is, you are fudging your analysis to make it look like you actually know what you are talking about. Unfortunately for you, I am very good at analyzing photos and film. Once again, when a ball is coming directly at you and you dont have much time to respond, no player will take their lengthy backswing. Although Blake never has had a big long backswing (WHICH I REPEATEDLY HAVE DISCOURAGED PLAYERS LEARNING THE ONEHANDED BACKSWING TO NOT DO), he does have a longer backswing than what you are indicating.
Here is your evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNVn0Q9EDn0
Obviously, you are twisting things to suit you.
First off, you cant use Guga to support your "shoulder rotation" claim. Guga had extraordinary flexibility which was well ahead of the common player and nearly EVERY professional player. Gugas flexibility in the neck was extraordinary.
The key to a good turn of the shoulders is to get the front shoulder under the chin. All professional players usually do this - INCLUDING BLAKE AS SHOWN HERE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNVn0Q9EDn0
WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!
ROFLMAO!!! You are not comparing apples to apples here!!!!
First off the ball Blake is hitting is coming AT HIM!!! It is coming in very fast!
HERE IS THE VIDEO SEQUENCE. His weight transfer was perfect!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTyyITw-fyo
He barely had enough time to switch his feet and set! He had great balance through the shot!
The shots you are showing are not balls hit DIRECTLY AT THE PLAYER!!!!!
LOL!! When a ball is hit directly at a player, you will have barely enough time to position your feet!!! This is hilarious.
for those of you who think I used a particularly bad video of blake... the video that I got these images from was posted by Bungalo Bill as an ideal model backhand.
anyway, I'm sure his response to this thread will be as unintelligible as his posts in the aforementioned thread. from the rest of you, I would appreciate some feedback.
Well, first off, I have never said Blake is an "IDEAL" model. You are once again putting words in my mouth. What I did say is Blakes backhand has many of tyhe fundamentals that people should be looking at. I also use Federers backhand, Haas, Gugas, and any other pro that demonstrates good fundamentals. So quit testing things to support your lame analysis.
And secondly, using Gasquets hand pattern for the racquet takeback is a huge mistake for players. Again, we are talking about fundamentals in the swing not the styles. Gasquet is a bad example for taking back the racquet as is Guga for most club players. Care to challenge me on that?
The reason I use the video of Blake all the time, is because it is:
1. Available
2. It demonstrates good fundamentals in footwork, the smile pattern racquet takeback, extention, the "L's" in the racquet to arm, and followthrough.
So the bottom-line is, your analysis above was tainted. It was skewed to support your lame analysis which showed nothing because you didnt compared them correctly. Further, Blakes backhand is a good backhand to view fundamentals to use in helping a player develop their backhand even further.
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
I would like all of you interested to study the link below. M27 has a problem in differentiating a fundamental from a style difference.
When I use Blake as a model, I am not looking at it to turn everyone into having James Blakes backhand.
We are looking at the FUNDAMENTALS of the backhand that should be there in all backhands.
I also am a promoter of the "smile" pattern. Some call it a "straight takeback" which is to me, misleading because it is not quite bringing the racquet straight back.
But to further clarify where we are going, please read UNIT TURN in the KEY POSITIONS section. You will see there is a difference between style and fundamental.
We are concerned with the fundamental of Blakes stroke and not the style.
Comprende?
http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/pdmediabooks/assets/men/James%20Blake/PerformanceAnalysis.html
Select "backhand" for the analysis.
When I use Blake as a model, I am not looking at it to turn everyone into having James Blakes backhand.
We are looking at the FUNDAMENTALS of the backhand that should be there in all backhands.
I also am a promoter of the "smile" pattern. Some call it a "straight takeback" which is to me, misleading because it is not quite bringing the racquet straight back.
But to further clarify where we are going, please read UNIT TURN in the KEY POSITIONS section. You will see there is a difference between style and fundamental.
We are concerned with the fundamental of Blakes stroke and not the style.
Comprende?
http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/pdmediabooks/assets/men/James%20Blake/PerformanceAnalysis.html
Select "backhand" for the analysis.
I totally agree with Bungalo Bill, almost impossible to judge one player´s stroke mechanich based on a single shot. I bet if someone would do that taking this Fed´s shot would grade him a 3.5 player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg&feature=PlayList&p=6E9AA2D20DB7478C&playnext=1&index=32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg&feature=PlayList&p=6E9AA2D20DB7478C&playnext=1&index=32
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
m27 makes his game sound amazing but I'm still awaiting his answer to my question about his ranking. I guess thats fair enough to ask considering whats been said by him in this thread. Its not in a way to bash him but to see where he's at.
Just break it up with the (Bracket)QUOTE(Bracket) and (Bracket)/QUOTE(Bracket) tags.
I haven't seen him play live, and I have seen him hit his topspin backhand very effectively. But, what you describe about the strategy of his play with that medium pace slice is exactly the point. You don't have to have perfect strokes to play high level tennis. I find that encouraging. You do have to have some good speed and footwork. That is somewhat discouraging.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
But Blakes backhand doesnt suck. That is the point I am trying to make. M27 took a photo of a shot that Blake had to turn real quick on and make a play on the ball. Blake has extremely quick feet and even with his quick reaction he still was able to shift his weight into the ball.
M27 went on to tell us about Blakes left leg, however, Blake was doing everything right with his left leg.
M27 went on to tell us about how spread out others feet where, however, he failed to show us what kind of ball the others were hitting and how much time they had to setup for the ball.
M27 went on to tell us about the right leg and how "other" pros plant that foot. Only on high balls did he say that they lift their front foot. I am prepared to show otherwise.
M27 compares Gugas takeback on a ball vs. Blakes takeback, however, there is no mention if these balls are the same. There is also no mention that Gugas has extremely flexible neck and back muscles and Blakes issue with his health.
Further, show me where Blakes backhand sucks? Even if there were several things, I could still show you fundamentals he does right.
There is no question that Blakes backhand is not the liability it was before. Further, the liability in his backhand was more about his vision and shot selection than any other thing.
Here we are reviewing technique and fundamentals of that technique which Blake is easily enough for the aspiring tennis player.
THE FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS OF A ONEHANDED BACKHAND ARE
1. FOOTWORK
2. LEG WORK (LOWERING, PUSHOFF, WEIGHT TRANSFER SUPPORT, ETC..)
3. BODY ALIGNMENT
4. NON-DOMINANT ARM USE
5. SHOULDER TURN (WHAT IS SUFFICIENT)
6. RACQUET PREPARATION
7. SIMPLICITY
8. SMILE PATTERN OR LOOP PATTERN (I PREFER TO TEACH THE SMILE PATTERN AS MOST CAN NBOT HANDLE THE LOOP PATERN LIKE GUGA OR GASQUET HAS)
9. YOUR HEAD.
10. RACQUET HEAD POSITION AND ANGLE
11. ARM ANGLE
12. CONTACT POINT
13. FOLLOWTHROUGH
14. RECOVERY
To say BLakes backhand sucks clearly shows a players ignorance on what Blake has achieved an done in his career. It also shows ignorance as to why Blakes backhand was a liability.
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Jonny S&V
Hall of Fame
Umm, if the scale was 0.0 = beginner and 3.5 = professional tennis player maybe... :roll:
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Look, I am not going to sit here and say you need Blakes backhand to get good results. What I am saying is Blake has fundamentals in his backhand that are common to all players. Further, you really dont know why Blakes backhand fell apart. You dont know his health issues or anything else.
Everyones "stroke" falls apart.
However, if you can see the fundamentals in his backhand as you can see the same fundamentals in others backhand, that is what you should be focusing on.
You are trying to see which backhand is "winning" so you can copy it. You are excluding so much information on what allows a player to hit his onehander well and so much of it is what happens in the brain and a players vision.
Did you ever think of that?
At this site, I use many players backhands to prove a point and not just Blakes backhand. That video is easily available and shows various aspects on what we should see in a players bakchand. The footwork, the unit turn, etc...
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Another ridiculous statement.
this post originated in another thread, but I decided it would be a shame to put all this effort into it only for it to be buried on page 3 of some obscure thread where nobody would ever see it.
anyway, a picture is worth a thousand words. lets look at three players whose backhands kicks ass, and one whose sucks:
ONE OF THESE DOES NOT BELONG
anyway, I'm sure his response to this thread will be as unintelligible as his posts in the aforementioned thread. from the rest of you, I would appreciate some feedback.
This may have been covered already, but just in case:
The clip from which that still originates is Blake returning a serve. This accounts of your gripes, including footwork, racquet position, etc....
Further, if you're going to make an argument that his backhand sucks based on his takeback compared to Gasquet, Federer and Guga, maybe you'd like to argue that his forehand sucks based on the fact that he has an abbreviated take back (and virtually no loop) on that as well?
Mind you, Blake's backhand isn't as good as Gasquet's, or Federer's, or Guga's (may as well compare Moya's forehand to Blake's, Sampras', and Federer's and conclude that it sucks) but it doesn't suck, by any means.
TheOverlord
New User
hasnt blake had neck surgery before or something? anything injuring the neck will pretty much not let you be able to serve or play tennis
Hot Sauce
Hall of Fame
Roddick was #1 for a while, but that doesn't mean his backhand is good.. I'm not saying Blake's backhand 'sucks' by any means, though.
TheOverlord
New User
ahahahahahaha
I truly don't understand why people say Blake has a bad backhand, it's not the very best one hander in the world but it's up there. Watch him blast Nadal off the court with it and tell me he has a ****ty backhand.
IMO his success against Nadal with it is down to his hitting th ball much higher thanks to Nadal's kicking topspin, this greater height gives him the margin for error he needs. If he would just swing from high to low a bit more...
IMO his success against Nadal with it is down to his hitting th ball much higher thanks to Nadal's kicking topspin, this greater height gives him the margin for error he needs. If he would just swing from high to low a bit more...
EikelBeiter
Professional
As I said before, it is not a return of serve
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Hey BeHappy,
Yes, Blake does have a good backhand. Is it the best in the world? Absolutely not. However, at his level, there are a lot of things we can take and learn from. Nobddy gets as high as he got in the world with a "sucky" backhand.
He had a bad rap about his backhand being poor a long time ago. However, his backhand being poor was not necessarily due to poor technique although, like any other pro, they are constantly trying to improve their technique.
Blakes woes with his backhand largely came from his disease and his vision predominately. As you know, without eyes, we can have perfect technique and not have good results.
Further, his backhand woes also was partly due to what he tried to do with his backhand which was hit it like his forehand. This meant he went for shots he shouldnt have taken. He went for too much.
In short, I am not concerned with turning everyones backhand into Blakes backhand. What I am concerned with is reviewing various players backhands for common fundamentals such as footwork, unit turn, smile or loop hitting hand patterns, hitting off the front leg, etc...
Also, the photos that M27 showed to try and salvage his image here was inappropriate. Blake's shot was one that was coming right at him and given how he switched his feet, he didnt have a lot of time.
As you know, balls coming toward you are the hardest to pickup and get ready for. The other shots were shots that the players were allowed to take a few steps and step more into the shot. This is not an apple to apple comparison and his example or "take" on the shots is misleading.
There is no need to mislead anyone here on this site. It adds no value whatsoever. James Blake is a very good player and his backhand has the fundamentals in it so that we can use it as a model to extract those fundamentals for instructional purposes.
I have shown Blake, Federer, Phillopousis, Guga, Haas, and so on. All of these players can be viewed and one does something better than the other. The point is that we review the fundamentals in the stroke so we can learn and practice. We are not looking for perfect players and I certainly do not have the resources here to do so. I get what I get from YouTube and use what I have in the best way possible.
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In D Zone
Hall of Fame
I don't see any issue with Blake's backhand - it really looks fundamentally sound. Blake likes to hit with a more flatter bh shot instead of the loopy topspin, hence you'll see different racquet positioning on this take back and his follow thru.
Every one including the pro's will have a shot that is weaker than the next guy. But it does not mean its bad. Blake's bh is better than the rest of the Bh players out there - why not pick on Gonzo's backhand or Fabrice (who plays an unconventional form) ?
If one is to analyzed the form of each player might as well analyze each and every ones movement. As the saying goes different strokes for different folks - as long as a player is playing competitively and has results to show is all that matters. There will only be one #1 playa out there.
Why not compare forehand strokes as well ? I am sure Blake will be top in the list as one of the best forehand in the business; eclipsing Guga, Haas, Gasquet.
Every one including the pro's will have a shot that is weaker than the next guy. But it does not mean its bad. Blake's bh is better than the rest of the Bh players out there - why not pick on Gonzo's backhand or Fabrice (who plays an unconventional form) ?
If one is to analyzed the form of each player might as well analyze each and every ones movement. As the saying goes different strokes for different folks - as long as a player is playing competitively and has results to show is all that matters. There will only be one #1 playa out there.
Why not compare forehand strokes as well ? I am sure Blake will be top in the list as one of the best forehand in the business; eclipsing Guga, Haas, Gasquet.
Tennisguy777
Professional
Wow this thread keeps on going.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
The above photos is what M27 tried to get you to believe that because these players have a higher racquet head (above the shoulders) or a deeper shoulder turn that this is enough to tell everyone why Blakes backhand sucks.
However, what M27 didnt tell you was the balls these players are hitting are different enough that it affected the stances and the preparation of the stroke for the situation.
Further, we are not concerned with getting Gugas backswing. Very few people can turn their shoulders with the flexibility he has so it isnt fair for any of us to try. What we are concerned about is the fundamental especially since every player is going to do things slightly different than the other in certain areas.
Grips, racquet height in the backswing, amount of shoulder turn, how the hitting hand goes back, etc...have fundamental aspects to it but they also have style preferences to them as well.
Just because Blake doesnt take his racquet back as high as another player does not mean it is bad or poor technique. And certainly, Blakes stance on the ball he was hitting has no bearing to his balance. In fact, Blake has some of the best footwork and balance on tour.
Now, concerning M27's analysis. It is largely misleading. Here is another shot Blake is hitting with his backhand. Is the racquet hieght the same?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNVn0Q9EDn0
What else can we learn from Blakes backhand? Racquet angle to the arm?
Now, the other point he made was the left leg should be off the ground or barely touching the ground and the right leg should be planted. He further said that Federer only raises his right leg if itis a high ball.
Here is Federers hitting a ball in his strike zone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC7Hld2zBtQ&NR=1
Here is Federer hitting a ball LOWER in the strike zone with his foot (heel) still coming off the ground at impact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9az5qWcLOTk&feature=related
The point is we are not trying to find out what is DIFFERENT in each players stroke, we are trying to find out what is COMMON in a players stroke to build instruction around and to see the evidence on what we need to practice. Your style, how far you bring the racquet back, etc...will be your own and based on how well you can be consistent throughout the point. If you try Gugas huge backswing and are late, guess what? You might have to head towards Blakes more simply backswing.
Further, the other reason I think Blakes backhand is a good model for us is because a lot of us do not have world-class flexibility. Trying to imitate Gugas swing spells disaster for a lot of players especially if they begin imitating Gugas hitting hand path for the backswing. You have to remember, Guga was the King of claycourts and most of us here play on hard courts.
So once again, we are not trying to change everyone's backhand into Blake's backhand. When we use him as a model, we are trying to find out the commonalities and the fundamentals to learn from.
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
And to further point out that no matter if this was a return of serve or a ball hit directly at him, Blake will tend to have a more compact swing and the last time I checked, there is nothing wrong with that either. In fact, I would encourage more club players to use a compact swing so they can control the racquet head better, time the ball better, and hit cleanly.
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