Mustard
Bionic Poster
Connors at 3? :lol:
Do you know how good Connors was, or did you just look at 8 majors? Connors won 98 matches at the US Open and 84 matches at Wimbledon. Who else has?
Connors at 3? :lol:
And, he gets CREDIT for doing that? I don't care WHY he quit, he quit, and did so, as "luck" would have it, right after he got his ass kicked at Wimbledon and the US Open. And, speaking of the US Open, I recall reading several years ago that it was, by far, the indicator of the top ranked player for that year-that is, the player who won the US Open ended the year as the world's top ranked player at the US Open than any of the other Slams-by far. Now, the time period in the study preceded the Open era, so, it may have been a bit misleading, but the last time I checked, Borg was the ONLY one of the top 20 male Slam winners who never won the US Open, with the exception of some old English guy who played in the 19th century and rarely, if ever, played the US Open-and, since in those days the Slam champion played only one match, that guy's 7 or so Wimbledons should be ignored, IMO. So, Borg being the ONLY modern Slam champion to NEVER win the tournament that historically been the best indicator(failing on 3 different surfaces, no less) would, by itself eliminate him, in my book from any GOAT discussion. Factor in that I like champions who react well to adversity-Ali vs Liston, and Foreman, as far as seemingly invincible opponents are concerned, and Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, and Spinks, as far as avenging defeats is concerned is one example, Michael Jordan overcoming the Pistons and Celtics is another. The Red Sox overcoming the contemporary Yankees who had just beaten them in the ALCS the year before(to say nothing of an 86 year curse they heard about incessantly) is still another. And contrast all of that to Goldilocks, who, the nanosecond the going got tough, took his ball and ran home to mommy. Open era GOAT? Please...
Not winning the US Open is the only blemish on Borg's record, but it's not as if he flopped there. He beat Connors there in 1981, beat Tanner there in 1980 and 1981, i.e. men who had beaten Borg at the US Open before.
If the greatness of a champion is measured by the toughness of his opposition, well, Borg stands alone.He played from Laver,Ashe,Newcombe,Smith and Rosewall to Mc Enroe,Lendl with Connors,Vilas,Nastase,Kodes,Panatta,Orantes,Gerulaitis,Tanner or Okker in the middle.And to think that if he had played till 28 or 29 ( he retired at 25), he´d also have played Becker,Edberg and Wilander...
Maybe only Gonzales ( who played from Tilden to Connors ) and, of course, Rosewall ( who played from Kramer to Gerulalaitis) can equal that.
Do some research before you post stuff on here, or carry on with the self humiliation..blockedhead.
When you start with the name calling, it just makes you look like a GOOSEHEAD, wait a second...hey that's you :twisted:
Anyway, in all seriousness everything i said in my first post is what i consider to be the most important character of a champion - recovering from setbacks.
In Borg's case, he just couldn't find it in himself to keep fighting, regardless of whatever motivational reasons he had for quitting, all because he could no longer beat one guy. There's no sugarcoating the fact that he GAVE UP, unlike other champions of the past and present
quitting at age 25 after tough losses is what ?
You believe a legendary myth, I'm afraid. Borg didn't annouce his retirement from full-time tennis competition until January 1983. By then, McEnroe was about to lose to Lendl for the 7th time in a row, and wasn't a champion at any of the majors.
Borg didn't play in 1982, apart from Monte Carlo and exhibitions, because he was involved in a dispute with the ITF over how many tournaments he would have to play. The ITF threatened to force Borg to qualify for the majors if he didn't play the required number of tournaments, so Borg didn't bother. It was expected that Borg would return to full-time competition for 1983, but then he made his retirement announcement in January 1983 during the Masters tournament.
Easy way out? It was his decision - so he had the courage to do what felt right to him.
This. Same as my list(though I might bump down Laver due to his height. I mean 5'8? ), I've got Nadal further down 5, don't consider him a tier 1 great yet.Open era rankings:
1) Federer
2) Borg
3) Laver
4) Sampras
5) Nadal
Easy way out? It was his decision - so he had the courage to do what felt right to him.
I agree Federer is #1, and the rest fight for 2nd place. However, I can't see how Borg and Fed belongs on the same tier I great and Nadal is tier II great. The gap between Nadal/Borg is a lot closer than the gap between Federer/Borg. If one considered Borg is one tier above Nadal, certainly Federer has to be atleast 1 tier above Borg. It would make more sense that both Borg/Nadal are on the same tier while Fed is 1 tier above them.
I've heard it said that Borg walked out of tennis after the 1981 US Open. Do you believe that myth? Or do you believe the fact that Borg won his next tournament, on clay in Geneva?
To Borg's credit he might be the greatest combined grass and clay court player ever (although Laver and Rosewall would also have strong cases), and those were almosdt the only two surfaces of tennis for a long time. However he is not the Open Era GOAT. He clearly rates behind Federer, Sampras, and many would even rate him behind Nadal. Heck while he is probably the best player of his era, Connors even has him beat in many stats- more tournament wins, more slam semis (and I believe finals), alot more time at #1, alot more longevity in the game, slams on all surfaces, and Borg's slam wins lead might even be less or non existent if Connors played the French from 74-76 (I might be in the minority but I think he would have had a fighting shot those years).
Open era rankings:
1) Federer
2) Borg
3) Laver
4) Sampras
5) Nadal
how the hell is Laver ahead of Sampras and Nadal for open era, most of Laver's greatness is from before the open era. Good to know that one GS is worth more than entire careers of Sampras and Nadal. Incredibly shallow list.
Has anything Sampras or Fed done since been greater then Borg's achievements(6 FO, 5 consecutive Wimbys, 3 consecutive channel slams)?
Good point. I guess I didn't want to alienate the Laver fans.
no WimbledonTo Borg's credit he might be the greatest combined grass and clay court player ever (although Laver and Rosewall would also have strong cases), and those were almosdt the only two surfaces of tennis for a long time. However he is not the Open Era GOAT. He clearly rates behind Federer, Sampras, and many would even rate him behind Nadal. Heck while he is probably the best player of his era, Connors even has him beat in many stats- more tournament wins, more slam semis (and I believe finals), alot more time at #1, alot more longevity in the game, slams on all surfaces, and Borg's slam wins lead might even be less or non existent if Connors played the French from 74-76 (I might be in the minority but I think he would have had a fighting shot those years).
As for whether he quit tennis or not at 26, he didnt play anymore slams or major events so that essentialy equals up to quitting tennis. Sorry playing a few money exhibitions and making a few bad showings at Monte Carlo and nothing else is not exactly continuing a full time competitive tennis career. For whats its worth if Nadal never plays another slam (hugely unlikely but just putting out there) I would concur with the idea he basically quit tennis after Wimbledon last year, even though he played some rink de dink tournaments this year already.
good to know that one great year in 1969 winning all 4 (plus that 1968 Wimbledon) eclipses the entire careers of McEnroe, Agassi, Lendl, and Djokovic. Earth shattering logic.My Open Era rankings would be:
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Nadal
4. Borg or Connors (toss up IMO)
6. Laver (his 68 onward achievements only, taking his whole career he is the all time GOAT of course)
7. McEnroe
8. Agassi
9. Lendl
10. Djokovic
To Borg's credit he might be the greatest combined grass and clay court player ever (although Laver and Rosewall would also have strong cases), and those were almosdt the only two surfaces of tennis for a long time. However he is not the Open Era GOAT. He clearly rates behind Federer, Sampras, and many would even rate him behind Nadal. Heck while he is probably the best player of his era, Connors even has him beat in many stats- more tournament wins, more slam semis (and I believe finals), alot more time at #1, alot more longevity in the game, slams on all surfaces, and Borg's slam wins lead might even be less or non existent if Connors played the French from 74-76 (I might be in the minority but I think he would have had a fighting shot those years).
As for whether he quit tennis or not at 26, he didnt play anymore slams or major events so that essentialy equals up to quitting tennis. Sorry playing a few money exhibitions and making a few bad showings at Monte Carlo and nothing else is not exactly continuing a full time competitive tennis career. For whats its worth if Nadal never plays another slam (hugely unlikely but just putting out there) I would concur with the idea he basically quit tennis after Wimbledon last year, even though he played some rink de dink tournaments this year already.
yes..and expanding on the borg/nadal theme..give a few days nadal is 30yrs yonger than borg (june 56/86) sooo>>>for BB 1981 read RN 2012,
say after wimbledon 2012 his last major, lets say nadal played 2012 u s open and reached whatever round..after this he plays an atp250/500 tourney in europe which nadal wins..then plays a 250 event in japan which is what borg did at end 1981..(ironically event includes mcenroe)
around about now in 2013 (for borg its now feb 1982)..tired of constant travel and play and wanting 'a life outside tennis'..nadal tells atp/majors he only wants to play a few tourneys this year (say 4 majors, clay masters, cincy 1000, and couple 250/500 on clay) and he will take the ranking hit that fewer tourneys might mean..
atp/majors say if you want to play majors you have to go through the 3 qualifying rounds if you dont play in a min number of tourneys..nadal sees this as insulting/ non flexible / and argues for a bit in the spring of 2013 hoping for a change of heart so he could play FO, WIMB, 2013 but the tennis rulers dont budge so nadal is backed into a corner..the humiliation of having to qualify for majors he has won many times, and already world weary, demotivated, and an urge to live a more norman life, nadal decides he has had enough of arguing/tennis and dosnt play at all..
discussions may/may not continue throughout 2014 and nadal enters exhib tourneys and trains with a view to coming back in 2014 playing a reduced calender..but atp still insist he has to qualify for majors..nadal announces retirement during AO 2014.(as borg did during world tour finals/masters in jan 1983).
good to know that one great year in 1969 winning all 4 (plus that 1968 Wimbledon) eclipses the entire careers of McEnroe, Agassi, Lendl, and Djokovic. Earth shattering logic.
I got Nadal over Borg now because:
1. Nadal still plugging away at it out there (Borg quits at 25)
2. Nadal was better on his weaker surfaces. A better hardcourt player then Borg
3. Demolished Borg's clay records
4. Success over ALL his main rivals (Federer, Djoker, Murray). Borg really couldn't figure out McEnroe. Nadal got the best of everyone of the main players of his era more times then not.
5. Career slam (It wasn't as important then but Borg still attempted and only managed 2 of the 4 slams while Nadal won all 4
There are still arguments for Borg, but I'll take Nadal
I think he had it in him to make a comeback at the majors, however it is a FACT that he didnt attempt it for whatever reason.I've heard it said that Borg walked out of tennis after the 1981 US Open. Do you believe that myth? Or do you believe the fact that Borg won his next tournament, on clay in Geneva?
So that takes him out of the GOAT discussion since he failed to win a USO.
He remains the greatest clay plus grass player, for all those who want to slice and dice achievements.
But you cannot be in the GOAT context, if you dont achieve a career slam. Same goes for Sampras.
Look at Fed's FO record, even though he won only 1,he made like 5 finals as well. That along with 4 plus major wins at other majors makes him so much more superior than the field.
Laver is great no doubt, but let's be realistic, nostalgia really pumps through the veins of some of the more adamant Laver supporters around here, to the point where his feats are extremely overexercised and mythologized. If he doesn't end up in top t players of Open Era, that's just common sense, 4 slams achieved in open era doesn't warrant a top 5 finish (though it'd be funny if some of them try to make a case for it), with legends like Sampras and Nadal roaming about.
2) Nadal is not better on his weaker surface. Borg reached 4 USO finals arguably against a much superior crop of fast-court players and on a faster court. Nadal has reached two USO finals in an era where courts are much slower.
good to know that one great year in 1969 winning all 4 (plus that 1968 Wimbledon) eclipses the entire careers of McEnroe, Agassi, Lendl, and Djokovic. Earth shattering logic.
A player having a short career because of a burned out has only himself to blame. It's not the other players fault because they committed to play in their 30s. Borg had many chances to redeem himself by winning more slam especially USO, but he chose to quit, that's his problem. Many great athletes like Barry Sanders quit early and he doesn't get any more credit.
Side note: Borg quit because people say he got tired of playing and dislike the schedule demanded by the tour. But let say Borg managed to beat Mac in 1981 Wimbledon and USO, you think he would still play? It's possible that he would, because winning motivates you, rather than getting burned out(as many have claimed).
My Open Era rankings would be:
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Nadal
4. Borg or Connors (toss up IMO)
6. Laver (his 68 onward achievements only, taking his whole career he is the all time GOAT of course)
7. McEnroe
8. Agassi
9. Lendl
10. Djokovic
good to know that one great year in 1969 winning all 4 (plus that 1968 Wimbledon) eclipses the entire careers of McEnroe, Agassi, Lendl, and Djokovic. Earth shattering logic.
wrong..borg said it himself..he had already lost intensity and desire which he was aware of in 1981, and wanted to step away from the tennis life full time.. thats why he wanted to play less in 1982 but he wasnt allowed to so he retired..
no one is saying its not down to him, but he was pushed into retirement by the authorities, they should have let him play what he wanted and he would have faced the consequences with a drop in ranking..a bit like rafa now he is at no5 might play djoko/murr/fed in QF.
a borg at world no5-10 rank and playing majors and a few masters wouldve been much better than what we ended up with which was no borg at all.
He said he lost the intensity/desire and my point is that his losses to Mac at the slams was part of the reason how he felt about tennis and the decision.
Had he won the USO maybe he would be willing to play more(we don't know). Perhaps it's a combination of both was the nail in the coffin.
how the hell is Laver ahead of Sampras and Nadal for open era, most of Laver's greatness is from before the open era. Good to know that one GS is worth more than entire careers of Sampras and Nadal. Incredibly shallow list.
The US Open had zero to do with Borg's retirement.
and you just keep thinking that.
He said he lost the intensity/desire and my point is that his losses to Mac at the slams was part of the reason how he felt about tennis and the decision. I'm not saying it has nothing to do with the schedule that he was forced to play. Had he won the USO maybe he would be willing to play more(we don't know). Perhaps it's a combination of both was the nail in the coffin.
I will. Believing reality rather than fantasy
More like believing the reality of a few Borg groupies vs believing the real reality that even the great Bud Collins and Borgs close friend and archrival John McEnroe believe.