Why cant you buy pro stocks

[Jster]

Just take note.
Every Pro stock mold was a retail frame that was ignored in the past because of the hot Pro stock at that point of time. Unless special drilled string pattern.

We thought that YTK IG speed mold is rubbish. But...someone managed to take down world No. 1 with it.

Then no one gives a damn about ai 98....because of 95d.... Until.....

 

[Jster]

Btw, I really want to buy P1 racquet holder bag. It is a pro stock bag.
Not sure if it is 12 or 15 pack bag.
Since they don't sell their leather... How about their bag?

 

[pfrischmann]

I beleive if manufacturers were less secretive about it and pros more regulary published their specs including swing weight, we could figure this out for ourselves but as long as they are so secretive, we will always wonder about the magic layup or secret material only the pros have access too. The few "pro level" sticks I've tried have been out of my wheelhouse. The Ultra Tour (debatable as a pro stock I know)-is awesome but requires far more work that a Pure XXX or more weight making it harder to weild at my current age and fitness level. The RF97-is wonderful for me for 45 minute, then I get tired, The 104 blade (serena racquet) is a monster but I don't have the fitness to weild it long term.

 

[stingstang]

For me, fitness and technique affect my game much much more than the racquet I play with. My approach is to work with what I have and not wish for what I want. That's just my opinion.

That's all true but a racquet you really like is a nice luxury. An LS doesn't do anything a Camry can't. It wont get you to work faster or break down less but it will ride a bit smoother, the seats will be better, the doors will make a more solid clunk when you close them. That's why I would love a matched set of PT57E's, I know I wouldn't win one more point with them than my retail IG's.

 

[vsbabolat]

Just take note.
Every Pro stock mold was a retail frame that was ignored in the past because of the hot Pro stock at that point of time. Unless special drilled string pattern.

We thought that YTK IG speed mold is rubbish. But...someone managed to take down world No. 1 with it.

Then no one gives a damn about ai 98....because of 95d.... Until.....

Not everyone former retail racquet was ignored. You’re forgetting that we are on a 2 year cycle now and after 2 years no matter how good, bad, how well it sells, and bad it sells it will be discontinued after 2 years. That’s the way of the industry now.

 

[one-hand]

Thank god the racquet is a relatively low tech equipment mainly made of carbon/graphite/fiberglass. The manufacturers can only use PJs to lure buyers. We would be SOL if the racquets break down like cars and we actually need replacements every 5 or so years.

 

[mad dog1]

We would be SOL if the racquets break down like cars and we actually need replacements every 5 or so years.

How are you driving your cars that they need to be replaced every 5 or so years? I drove my last car for 11 years and put almost 250,000 miles on it before I decided to replace it. When I replaced it, it was still running fine, too.

 

[one-hand]

How are you driving your cars that they need to be replaced every 5 or so years? I drove my last car for 11 years and put almost 250,000 miles on it before I decided to replace it. When I replaced it, it was still running fine, too.

Got it used and repair would have cost more than the value of the vehicle. So it was time to upgrade.

 

[Dartagnan64]

How are you driving your cars that they need to be replaced every 5 or so years? I drove my last car for 11 years and put almost 250,000 miles on it before I decided to replace it. When I replaced it, it was still running fine, too.

easy if you buy a luxury brand and it goes off warranty, it's often best to resell and get a new one as repair costs are brutal. Or if you buy used and its getting to the point that repairs cost more than replacement, time to replace.

But yeah, if you buy a new Toyota, you can run those things for over a decade with rarely a problem.

 

[jmacdaununder2]

Of course pro stocks are nice and they provide a consistent platform to customize from. I am glad you are fortunate enough to play with them. However, the reality is that they are not easily accessible to the general public. When you consider all the aspects needed to play good solid tennis, the racquet becomes a very small variable. For me, fitness and technique affect my game much much more than the racquet I play with. My approach is to work with what I have and not wish for what I want. That's just my opinion.

Another post downgrading the relative importance of the racquet - posted in the 'Racquets' section...

 

[Harry_Wild]

Why dont manufacturers just sell pro stock rackets?
It seems a well known thing that players dont use the rackets they endorse.

Why dont manufacturers just make those rackets to the masses?

Racquet manufacturers use to sell the actual racquet specs that the tour players endorse back in the 60s and 70s. They found out that a majority of the recreational players needed lighter racquets with more power racquets to enjoy the game of tennis. The manufacturers also found that pro stock frames needed a skill level of a college player to use them adequately. And how many 4/5+ players are out there in the world? See how they look at it now!

 

[Jster]

Not everyone former retail racquet was ignored. You’re forgetting that we are on a 2 year cycle now and after 2 years no matter how good, bad, how well it sells, and bad it sells it will be discontinued after 2 years. That’s the way of the industry now.

They /OP should have bought a few before they discontinued the model. Every retail frame mold has the chance to be the holy stick in 5-6 years time. I am predicting the Youtek IG Radical MP mold. Hahahaha

 

[dr325i]

Just got me another PT113B yesterday. Came in at 280g unstrung, uncustomized, just as Feda....I mean Nostradamus claimed -- 'much heavier" than the current retail frames
Spent half the silicone tube (and a lot of lead) to get it to my spec... But the feel and blend of power/control/spin is unmatched

 

[rafazx10]

Some varying opinions here.
Some people saying they are too heavy, and some people saying to light and required customization. No general consensus.

Some replies dont make sense at all.
-Not enough market? How big the the market for a Wilson n1 115?
-Too demanding for the average player? What about the Head Prestige Mid?

I am not saying those points are not somewhat true, but they can be applied to many of the rackets that currently are in the market.

Also, I didnt see anyone claiming they would play better with a pro stock.

 

[one-hand]

Another post downgrading the relative importance of the racquet - posted in the 'Racquets' section...

Perhaps you're right but we'll never know how important the racquet is. But I bet you'll know real quick if your dinners come directly from match wins.

 

[el sergento]

Just got me another PT113B yesterday. Came in at 280g unstrung, uncustomized, just as Feda....I mean Nostradamus claimed -- 'much heavier" than the current retail frames
Spent half the silicone tube (and a lot of lead) to get it to my spec... But the feel and blend of power/control/spin is unmatched

Well, the specs you mentioned are available in retail frames, which is why I think it’s actually not that hard to get something close to a pro stock frame without shelling out big $. Having said that, I fully understand that some moulds and string patterns are only available for legit pro stock frames.

As an example, I bought a pair of Prince TT Tour 100 L’s for a pittance when you look at retail prices (let alone pro stocks). Stock, these frames are 270 ish grams, pretty much even balance, have a low SW, and they’re relatively soft, 63 RA. With those starting specs, I’m free to create pretty much any type of frame I want. The tech 315 Ltd’s Were also good examples of retail pro stockish frames, although their starting specs were higher than the Princes. Come to think of it, I think I bought a pair off you?).

Anyway, I jammed 30 grams of silicone in the handle of the Princes and enough lead in the hoop to reach my desired specs. Much like one would do when customizing a true pro stock.

Lastly, I’m with you, saying that pro stocks are much heavier than retail frames is to grossly misunderstand the whole point of a pro stock hairpin.

 

[mad dog1]

@el sergento Pro stocks offer a buttery feel that off the shelf sticks can’t match even when the weight and balance are identical. I’ve had the opportunity to hit with JGads’ Head Radical pro stocks (MG and YT paint jobs) and the smooth, buttery feel is unlike any retail off the shelf stick. I can’t justify paying big bucks for a pro stock myself, but their luscious feel is very addictive! Even the tfight 315 Ltd while closer in feel to a pro stock still wasn’t nearly the same.

 

[Alex78]

Some replies dont make sense at all.
...

-Not enough market? How big the the market for a Wilson n1 115?

How old are you? While I have no access to the neccessary data, it's rather safe to assume the big manufacturers sell a lot of such user-friendly frames, especially to the large group of senior players. I see a ton of these frames in my tennis club, just noone using them under the age of 60. In fact, there's a group of very competent senior players in the 70+ age group, and they all use such frames. Just by looking at their strokes you can see they have been playing the game for a long time and many have a full swing.
On the other hand, I'll again point out to Head's Custom Made program, where you can essentially buy pro stock frames specc'ed to your liking. Apparently this was such a huge success they've abandoned it for the time being...

 

[michael valek]

The money is better spent on a gym membership improve fitness footwork etc and some proper technical and tactical lessons then you can play with anything.

 

[dr325i]

The money is better spent on a gym membership improve fitness footwork etc and some proper technical and tactical lessons then you can play with anything.

exactly, why drive a BMW if you can buy a Kia and get from point A to point B anyway and spend the rest of the money for driver's performance school and stickers for your Kia...

 

[dr325i]

Well, the specs you mentioned are available in retail frames, which is why I think it’s actually not that hard to get something close to a pro stock frame without shelling out big $. Having said that, I fully understand that some moulds and string patterns are only available for legit pro stock frames.


Lastly, I’m with you, saying that pro stocks are much heavier than retail frames is to grossly misunderstand the whole point of a pro stock hairpin.

So, can you point me to the retail stick with the following specs:
- 335g strung (head shape grip and two overgrips), 340 SW, 32.5cm balance
- 60RA flex, buttery feel
- 22mm or less beam

 

[mmk]

Yeah, I think the marketing is hilarious. The most flexible racquet ever made lol The marketing department has no shame. It has a flex of 55RA according to TW specs which are very credible. So it’s firm flex according to HEAD’s mid 80’s marketing department. But millennials have never seen a racquet that flexible just those Babolat’s and Babolat wannabe’s. So that BS marketing can be believable and it will also be believable to older people who’s arm is going to fall from stiff, light, wide body racquets, and poly.

And the wood racquets I carry in my bag for fun likely have RAs in the mid-30s. I can see the racquet flex when I hit with one of them.

 

[michael valek]

exactly, why drive a BMW if you can buy a Kia and get from point A to point B anyway and spend the rest of the money for driver's performance school and stickers for your Kia...

Or maybe what I meant was learn to drive the Kia better first. The same crappy forehand is still a crappy forehand with a pro stock racket.

 

[dr325i]

Or maybe what I meant was learn to drive the Kia better first. The same crappy forehand is still a crappy forehand with a pro stock racket.

No one said that people using pro stocks have crappy forehands.
In fact, the right balance, SW, feel and feedback can make any of your shots more consistent -- see my post above.
Call it a pro stock or whatever but get me the retail racket with the specs above and I will use it...

 

[michael valek]

I didnt say that either. Sure buy them, great.

 

[rafazx10]

How old are you? While I have no access to the neccessary data, it's rather safe to assume the big manufacturers sell a lot of such user-friendly frames, especially to the large group of senior players. I see a ton of these frames in my tennis club, just noone using them under the age of 60. In fact, there's a group of very competent senior players in the 70+ age group, and they all use such frames. Just by looking at their strokes you can see they have been playing the game for a long time and many have a full swing.
On the other hand, I'll again point out to Head's Custom Made program, where you can essentially buy pro stock frames specc'ed to your liking. Apparently this was such a huge success they've abandoned it for the time being...

I am 28.
There is a small market for those rackets.
My point is, manufacturers make all kinds of rackets that have a small market out there. I would assume there is a small market for pro stock rackets also
From some of the posts is this thread, I guess Head is already selling pro stocks, and some stores only sell pro stock.

The most expensive part of making a racket has to be RnD, followed by tooling. The racket itself it is probably fairly cheap. Manufacturers already did the RnD and have the tooling, my post was just wondering why they dont sell them.
Some people are getting bent way out of shape here. I didnt see anyone mentioning that a player would be better with a pro stock or that is the best place to spend your money.

 

[one-hand]

The money is better spent on a gym membership improve fitness footwork etc and some proper technical and tactical lessons then you can play with anything.

Totally agree. Every word, letter....even the period. If the time spent in the gym still doesn't improve your game then you'll know pro stocks ain't gonna help you anyway. LOL

 

[one-hand]

exactly, why drive a BMW if you can buy a Kia and get from point A to point B anyway and spend the rest of the money for driver's performance school and stickers for your Kia...

If you buy a BMW, you'll have a BMW. But if you buy two KIAs, performance driving lessons, and stickers for the KIAs, you'll still have something left to buy pro stocks.

 

[el sergento]

@el sergento Pro stocks offer a buttery feel that off the shelf sticks can’t match even when the weight and balance are identical. I’ve had the opportunity to hit with JGads’ Head Radical pro stocks (MG and YT paint jobs) and the smooth, buttery feel is unlike any retail off the shelf stick. I can’t justify paying big bucks for a pro stock myself, but their luscious feel is very addictive!

Well, that’s why I said close Yeah, I’ve hit with a PT 57A and whatever code the head Extremes are. Agreed, feel is fantastic, but I’m probably not that sensitive to feel anyway because I have a **** shoulder. To me, a racket either hurts my shoulder or it doesn’t.

So, can you point me to the retail stick with the following specs:
- 335g strung (head shape grip and two overgrips), 340 SW, 32.5cm balance
- 60RA flex, buttery feel
- 22mm or less beam

MicroGel Radical MP and some lead???

/ducks for cover


In all seriousness, thats why I said in my previous post:

Having said that, I fully understand that some moulds and string patterns are only available for legit pro stock frames.

Fellas, alls I’m saying is that, again, unless you need a very specific mould/ drill pattern/ beam width, there are and have been retail sticks with relatively close to pro stock hairpins that any old joe can customize to their preferred spec.

Will they be perfect, no. But they will be waaaaaaaaay cheaper.

Let’s just say they’ll feel like margarine instead of butter

 

[Alex78]

I am 28.
There is a small market for those rackets.
My point is, manufacturers make all kinds of rackets that have a small market out there. I would assume there is a small market for pro stock rackets also
From some of the posts is this thread, I guess Head is already selling pro stocks, and some stores only sell pro stock.

The most expensive part of making a racket has to be RnD, followed by tooling. The racket itself it is probably fairly cheap. Manufacturers already did the RnD and have the tooling, my post was just wondering why they dont sell them.
Some people are getting bent way out of shape here. I didnt see anyone mentioning that a player would be better with a pro stock or that is the best place to spend your money.

Hey, late response here - I reckon the pro stock market is simply too small for the big brands. Again, I've claimed that Head's Custom Made program is really a pro stock offering, albeit only for two moulds. Maybe they chose the wrong ones, but they probably picked what made the most sense to them (*irony*, it's still Head we're talking about ).
I don't understand why Wilson only offers paint job customization, though.
Another aspect is would it make sense to sell hair pins instead of the wholly customized stick? My guess here is too many people would buy the bare hair pin simply because it's cheaper and then don't know how to professionally customize it (if at all - see the general confusion about what constitutes a pro stock in this very thread!), leading to consumer dissatisfaction.
Anyway, what it all seems to come down to is (some) people want pro stocks but are not prepared to pay a premium for these racquets. And that's just not a wish racquet companies are going to oblige. If enough people were prepared to pay more for a pro stock than for a retail racquet, I suppose there would be more offerings.

PS: If you look at a place like the forum for strings, you can see there are loads of pro stocks available. It's not like somebody's advertising them and they're immeadiatly snatched up...

 

[dnguyen]

Buy vintage racquets cos they were real pro stocks!

 

[rafazx10]

Buy vintage racquets cos they were real pro stocks!

I personally play with the Wilson nCode Six.One 18x20
I have tried many other rackets and havent found anything I like as much.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Just take note.
Every Pro stock mold was a retail frame that was ignored in the past because of the hot Pro stock at that point of time. Unless special drilled string pattern.

We thought that YTK IG speed mold is rubbish. But...someone managed to take down world No. 1 with it.

Then no one gives a damn about ai 98....because of 95d.... Until.....

I would say: "Every Pro stock mold was a retail frame that was ignored in the past because of the hot new retail models at that point of time". More or less.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

I would say: "Every Pro stock mold was a retail frame that was ignored in the past because of the hot new retail models at that point of time". More or less.

agree here
i wanna personally try a pro stock frame for the sake of trying it,, but after a couple of months, im gonna be looking to demo something new,
soo many good/different rackets, soo little time!!
i seriously doubt that a single pro stock racket is gonna stop my curiosity of trying the new rackets that look awesome, and come out every YEAR

 

[Povl Carstensen]

agree here
i wanna personally try a pro stock frame for the sake of trying it,, but after a couple of months, im gonna be looking to demo something new,
soo many good/different rackets, soo little time!!
i seriously doubt that a single pro stock racket is gonna stop my curiosity of trying the new rackets that look awesome, and come out every YEAR

Well you have to realise that it is unlikely they come up with any major improvement every or every other year, but they do have to CLAIM that they came up with something every or every second year. The K-factor Wilson line was sort of cute in that respect, because the "K" or "Karophite" was basically just a synonym for graphite or carbon fibre. This from a guy who has owned over 30 different rackets in my time. Now I am sticking to two Wilson PS Classic 95's...

 

[Alex78]

I would say: "Every Pro stock mold was a retail frame that was ignored in the past because of the hot new retail models at that point of time". More or less.

Not necessarily "ignored in the past". Just like you wrote in #85, the industry is constantly shelling out new racquets (moulds) and technologies, so a company just won't keep the same stick in their line-up for very long. There are some exceptions (e.g., Prince POG OS and its various iterations, Wilson's PSC [I'll arguably include the 6.1 gens here]), but a company such as Head just isn't going to do it. For instance, the 260.X mould is already a classic and many pro players use it (Berdych, Fritz, Karlovic etc.). And it was definitely a successful frame for Head when YouTek and YouTek IG were their current lines.

 

[Crocodile]

I think people would be satisfied if the companies would at least make frames like the H19 and PT57 A availabile, that would cover most people who want pro stock.
Otherwise you can go for the classic frames and add your own weight and get there easily. I used to pick up Dunlop Biomimetic 300s and 200's, add lead and a leather grip
and then you will get there quickly.

 

[one-hand]

I think people would be satisfied if the companies would at least make frames like the H19 and PT57 A availabile, that would cover most people who want pro stock.
Otherwise you can go for the classic frames and add your own weight and get there easily. I used to pick up Dunlop Biomimetic 300s and 200's, add lead and a leather grip
and then you will get there quickly.

I think @vsbabolat said it best. The manufacturers would have a tough time marketing 25 yr old rackets to the general public.

 

[Crocodile]

I think @vsbabolat said it best. The manufacturers would have a tough time marketing 25 yr old rackets to the general public.

That may be true what you say about the general public, but I think there are different markets that need to be looked at. There is a segment of players for instance that are advanced to elite players and older advanced players who can't access pro stocks due to their ranking that could benefit from these frames.
These days your average pro shop only stocks light and stiff frames all around the 300g mark with a tour model at 310 or 315 which is a waste of time if you normally have your racquets at 360g.
This is where the custom brands like Angell are doing business. All the manufactures have to do is to make a run of extra pro stock frames and have these options available for special order.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

But, pro stocks (most of them, as I understand) are not 360 grams (340 grams unstrung). They are lighter, to allow for customizing.

 

[one-hand]

That may be true what you say about the general public, but I think there are different markets that need to be looked at. There is a segment of players for instance that are advanced to elite players and older advanced players who can't access pro stocks due to their ranking that could benefit from these frames.
These days your average pro shop only stocks light and stiff frames all around the 300g mark with a tour model at 310 or 315 which is a waste of time if you normally have your racquets at 360g.
This is where the custom brands like Angell are doing business. All the manufactures have to do is to make a run of extra pro stock frames and have these options available for special order.

I agree with you in that there are definitely players that can benefit from pro stocks but lack easy access to them. We all know pro stocks are customization platforms for pros. However, marketing as such would run counter to their business plans to sell racquets with "New Technology". The feasibility of your idea to sell pro stocks as special orders would depend on how successful the manufacturers are at rebranding pro stocks. This is needed so the special orders can still be aligned with their business plans to sell new racquets.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Yes, it would conflict with the manufacturers strategy of presenting new, breakthrough technology. And even worse, it would mean openly admitting the existence of paintjobs.

 

[teachingprotx]

Yes it’s not in their best interest of the Market Which is housewives at the local pro shop . Juniors more juniors more housewives with small 5 hr a week jobs , and then there is the other market which is juniors and housewives . Men don’t buy rackets and make up such a small percentage you add on the extra cost to produce , which there isn’t any .. as the pro stocks are mostly normal rackets at one time or another but they are “old “ Tech. And old tech is “ dead tech .
Now you do take the small % of the people that are interested in buying and that Market is ball park 8% of the remaining 92%. The money just ain’t in it . But rest assured it can’t be costing more to make pro stocks unless they lost or sold the molds and some how misplaced the lay up ratios . Which I can assure you . The recipes that they use to make ANY racket I presume are locked up vault style ..
now I’m purely speculating but if you step back and take a look at the big picture .. Hell man why would they ?

 

[one-hand]

Actually, we are all using pro stocks. The racquets we play with are derived from some ancestral hairpin. Instead of temporary modifications with lead and silicone, the racquets have been permanently modified.

 

[Dartagnan64]

The most expensive part of making a racket has to be RnD, followed by tooling. The racket itself it is probably fairly cheap.

Most expensive part of making a racket is the marketing. Trust me as someone that deals a lot with the pharmaceutical industry. All these companies spend twice the budget on marketing as they do R&D.

 

[Fairhit]

I would certainly like to try a pro stock sometime but I wouldn't pay for what they may ask for it, I love to buy new frames now and then but to shell out 400-500 for a racquet is not something very appealing to me and I'm sure that's the way 99% of the market thinks, so why they would release a pro stock frame to the general public with all of the inherent cost to do so when the market is so small and they already have all the marketing efforts focus in what really sells?



Besides that, I think that you have to be at a certain high level of play to really benefit from what a pro stock has to offer. For the rest of us there's such a big pool of frames to choose from that are made to cater to our específic needs that I think a pro stock is absolutely redundant

 

[ProRadTour]

Maybe the the question of the thread should be how much would you be willing to pay for a pro stock? I believe somewhere in another post VSBabolat posted a catalogue photo that had a prestige classic 600 for $225 in 1991. With inflation that is about $420 USD now. So would you be willing to pay $420 USD for a PT57A and Prestige Classic if head re-released them? Or a Wilson H19/H22? I would, but I think the answer is hell no for most people. I think that's why we can't buy pro stocks.

If the cost of producing a PT57A was the same as the current retail Prestige, I don't see why Head wouldn't re-release it. Just using Head as an example here, but I guess the same would apply to Wilson. I have also read comments from people who have played with a H19 and the Ultra Tour, the general commentary is while they somewhat similar the overall feel and quality of the H19 is superior.

 

[rafazx10]

Why woudl the pro stock cost twice what a retail frame does?

And I went to the website mentioned earlier is this thread and they do have brand new pro stocks for around 300 euros. Assuming there is a large markup due to rarity, I think they would cost more or less the same as a retail frame.

 

[QuadCam]

If you want the pro stock experience, buy a Tecnifibre 315 Ltd. They are light and come with a low swingweight. I bought 3 matched sticks from TW using their matching service.
From there, i completely disassembled them, weighed them and spec'd them. Then, i lengthened handles ½", changed the pallets to the Wilson shape. Precisely added silicone to the handles. Added lead under the bumper. Custom installed tec's ez lock tieoff grommets.
Now, i have 3 sticks that are 27.5". Weigh 12.5 Oz. Swingweight of 335 and have a balance10 pts Headlight.

It took a long time to figure out exactly what worked best for me. Once i got it with one racquet, i copied it with the others. But it was important that i started with 3 racquets that were as identical as possible.

Enjoy the process, but it's not for the average tennis enthusiast.