Why double standard wrt Justine?
- Thread starter sureshs
- Start date
HollerOne5
Semi-Pro
sureshs said:
***************SPOILER**********************
Obviously from telling by the scoreline, there is a difference in Justine retiring during a slam final down 6-1, 2-0, rather than DN, who won the first set and was up a break in the second when he became injured, if you read the news story from Paris.
Jack Romeo
Professional
yes there are many others who retire from their matches. so why is justine criticized more? because she did it in a final of a grandslam tournament. the stakes are of course higher. the spotlight and the media scrutiny will obviously be much more. compare this situation to novak djokovic who retires in a quarterfinal (btw, he got slammed too). another reason is that people have high expectations with regards to the competitiveness of JHH. she has a reputation as one of the toughest fighters. remember that she had tough quarterfinal and semifinal victories at the AO. people expected her to fight back even when she fell behind in the final. instead, she just quits. djokovic and the guy who retired today do not have the same "tough as nails" reputation that JHH has. in fact, they're both kinda like headcases. so people don't appear to be so hard on them because they sort of expect them to do something like that.
ballplayer
New User
I agree with the OP. You can dream up all the excuses you want for justifying the different reactions to Henin-Hardenne's retirement at the AO and Nalbandian's here at RG, but I too find it odd. And I can't explain it. Don't get me wrong: I'm glad if David's retirement doesn't (and hopefully won't) receive the same shameful responses.
skip1969
G.O.A.T.
i agree. people LOVE to bash the women on here.sureshs said:
i think we should just accept when players retire and give them the benefit of the doubt. after all, they are out there, we aren't we don't know a damn thing, except what we see (which oftentimes, doesn't tell the whole story). people perceive things, make assumptions . . . and then the bashing begins.
you don't have to like players who seem frail and retire. conversely, you can accept that aspect as part of their make-up, and move on. the same way people like dementieva (even though her serve is crap) or mauresmo (though she's a bit nervy), nadal (even though he wears those pants), etc. in the same way you can like djokovic (even though he doesn't seem that "tough").
i accept my brother (who is a bit irresponsible and self-absorbed) and my sister (who has HORRIBLE taste in men) . . . the thing is, fans somehow expect players to be perfect, with no flaws or chinks in their armor. but they are just like us, with their faults. only worse, cos their weaknesses are out there for all the world to see.
RealityPolice
Rookie
Part of it may also be that Nalbandian retired because of injury, whereas JHH was claimed to merely have an upset stomach. Injuries may be a more acceptable excuse for many fans than simply feeling unwell.
There's also a big difference in some people's eyes between a semi and a final. Struggle through a final and you might be able to pull out a win. Struggle through a semi and you still have to play the final-- or else you default and the final is a walkover.
There's also a big difference in some people's eyes between a semi and a final. Struggle through a final and you might be able to pull out a win. Struggle through a semi and you still have to play the final-- or else you default and the final is a walkover.
sureshs said:
On criticism from the media, only Mary Joe, Brad Gilbert, and Pam Shriver criticised her. These were the 2nd, perhaps 3rd, tier players that could never win like JHH. They naturally treasured the GS final much more and were jealous of JHH's success. You never hear JMac criticized JHH because JMac knows what it takes to be a great winner. JHH knew she needed to preserve herself for more GS final whereas Mary Joe and the likes would be lucky to get to even one.
I think JHH was doing Morressmo a favor by quitting. If JHH was only able to dog it and prolonged the game, it won't be much fun for everyone, and Morressmo could have injured herself and JHH ended up winning (don't say it won't happen, that's how Clijster quits in the MMo's previous match). Then, what would people think. JHH would be a bad sport too in that case. After seeing JHH overcoming so much adversities, I have no doubt that JHH was ill enough to prevent her from continuing.
On criticism from the folks on these board, one reason, JHH does not fit the "hot babe" image. They are not tennis purest. They think they don't have to show their faces on this board, and they can trash anyone they don't like. They elevate themselve to Sainthood and lost all respects for JHH, who is voted as one of the 40 greatest players in the modern era by Tennis Magazine.
Well, if I want to look for a saint, I will go to a church. If I want to look at hot babes, I want to flip through adult movies, magazine and to local bars to get some real babes for some real actions. Too me, with exception of Hingis, who embodies the grace, elegant, and feminism, no girls on the tour can come close to the babes from the sources I mentioned above.
conjunctivitis
New User
No one in their right mind would just give up in an GS FINAL, no less Henin; she's a fighter man!
BeautyVenus
New User
It all comes down to sexism and misogyny. Women are judged more harshly then men in this world. Sports is a sexist arena.
alienhamster
Hall of Fame
No, NO, NO, NO!!
The majority of complaints about JHH have nothing to do with sexism or distaste for the WTA. (I will be the first to grant you all that there IS certainly a lot of hatred for the WTA on these boards and elsewhere, but that's a different issue.)
JHH has consistently pulled some shady stuff over the past few years, and it always seems to be in the latter stages of slams. I'm talking about conveniently timed cramping that she ALWAYS seems to overcome (no matter how much she's writhing on the court), injury timeouts, and of course the complete lie about raising her hand during Serena's service during the FO a few years ago. And that's not even mentioning her (often) complete lack of respect for her opponents' abilities in post-match interviews. Her pull-out against Mauresmo was the best (i.e. worst) example of all of these issues.
JHH is an awesome and talented player and competitor. But she's a rotten and dishonest sportswoman.
She's earned all the criticism she's gotten.
The majority of complaints about JHH have nothing to do with sexism or distaste for the WTA. (I will be the first to grant you all that there IS certainly a lot of hatred for the WTA on these boards and elsewhere, but that's a different issue.)
JHH has consistently pulled some shady stuff over the past few years, and it always seems to be in the latter stages of slams. I'm talking about conveniently timed cramping that she ALWAYS seems to overcome (no matter how much she's writhing on the court), injury timeouts, and of course the complete lie about raising her hand during Serena's service during the FO a few years ago. And that's not even mentioning her (often) complete lack of respect for her opponents' abilities in post-match interviews. Her pull-out against Mauresmo was the best (i.e. worst) example of all of these issues.
JHH is an awesome and talented player and competitor. But she's a rotten and dishonest sportswoman.
She's earned all the criticism she's gotten.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
Criticism or not, she has answered very strong after the AO.I like her game, she is not the strongest player but she gets alot of pop on her serve for only being 5'5.
skip1969
G.O.A.T.
hardenne is hardly the only professional player who could be accused of "shady" behaviour , gamsemanship, etc. and yet, she is bashed a lot on this board. the criticism after the australian was SO over the top, there were countless threads on the subject and she is still being raked over the coals these few months later.alienhamster said:
i think some posters are right when they say that other factors play a big part in that. maybe if she was prettier, or had bigger boobs. and if she was single and (seemingly) "available" for all the male posters to drool over. or if she were american (where just about anything goes so long as you win). heck, if she were a man, you could argue that people wouldn't have made such a fuss.
i'm not arguing that the players don't deserve criticism. i mean, they put themselves out there. but let's not go overboard.
alienhamster
Hall of Fame
Skip, you don't seem like an irrational fanboy/girl, so I'll cut you some slack here. But I just really disagree with a number of your points:skip1969 said:
(1) I never argued that she was the only "shady" player, but IMO she is BY FAR the most consistent user of gamesmanship out there these past few years on the WTA. The Williams sisters have a terrible lack of respect for their peers off the circuit, but they don't pull crap during matches. On the other hand, many players occasionally take convenient "bathroom breaks" and timeouts when they're down, but they are at least civil and courteous in other aspects of their game. If you can name me some other WTA players who have as bad a track record as JHH, I'm all ears.
(1.5) Part of my displeasure here comes from disappointment. I really liked her and her game early on, and I wish other players on the WTA could play with this kind of variety. But her general crappy on and off court conduct has really just soured me to her. Maybe that's unfair, but I don't think so.
(2) Do we even know if she was nauseated? It's just so weird that she's Lil Miss Toughness in every other Grand Slam context (i.e., when she's not getting steamrolled) but suddenly, in the AUSTRALIAN OPEN FINAL, she can't even play through like 3 games for Mauresmo's sake? I'm pretty sure it's okay to criticize her for this. (The counterargument here is that perhaps this meant she was REALLY sick, but there were no doctor's reports to confirm anything like this.)
(3) Even the hot girls get criticized here. There have been numerous (well-deserved) threads about Sharapova's lack of imagination and boring gameplay.
(4) Are you joking about being immune to criticism on these boards if you're an American player??? 50% of the threads have been about how hyped/crappy/immature Andy Roddick is OR how misguided and irritating the Williams sisters are.
(5) I'm pretty sure Kiefer and Hewitt have been raked over the coals numerous times for their gamesmanship. Last I heard, they didn't have vaginas.
sandiegotennisboy
Banned
sureshs said:
that JHH simplex virus could have taken some pepto bismol for her BS excuse for a retirement in a GRANDSLAM FINAL.
even if nalbandian was faking his injury, the obvious effort to whoop federer was present....unlike ms std.
I was upset with her, because of how someone else put it. She's gotten very shady lately. I said it a while back in another post, it seemed like everything changed after she got married. I have no idea why, and am not saying the marriage is causing it, but that was the point in time things changed.
As for the person who thinks the flaming is coming because Henin Hardene isn't a babe. Well me being gay, I can personally refute that comment considering how she looks has no affect on what I think of her. She's got a great game, and a very competitive person, but these latest events have really changed my opinion about her.
As far as why her and not the men. Well I'm not any happier with Nalbandian leaving the semis, but the difference for me is the final is for the trophy, and I think it's unfair to rob the opponent of that moment of winning. At least with the semi's you still have another match to win to be given the trophy.
Also I see a difference between I'm not feeling well versus injury. If you pull a muscle or twist a muscle, well then of course, it's time to default. Playing on something injured could do far worse things including ending your career.
Now as far as Nalbandian goes, I don't know whether it was a real injury, but am seeing a pattern from him, he really can just lose his whole concentration and everything goes south. Look at the Australian open, and now here. Now he said he injured himself the match before, and still went out and played because he felt fine.
Honestly it's very simple with Henin Hardenne, if she was injured I understand why she stopped playing. But the I'm not feeling well, didn't fly very well with a lot of people.
John
As for the person who thinks the flaming is coming because Henin Hardene isn't a babe. Well me being gay, I can personally refute that comment considering how she looks has no affect on what I think of her. She's got a great game, and a very competitive person, but these latest events have really changed my opinion about her.
As far as why her and not the men. Well I'm not any happier with Nalbandian leaving the semis, but the difference for me is the final is for the trophy, and I think it's unfair to rob the opponent of that moment of winning. At least with the semi's you still have another match to win to be given the trophy.
Also I see a difference between I'm not feeling well versus injury. If you pull a muscle or twist a muscle, well then of course, it's time to default. Playing on something injured could do far worse things including ending your career.
Now as far as Nalbandian goes, I don't know whether it was a real injury, but am seeing a pattern from him, he really can just lose his whole concentration and everything goes south. Look at the Australian open, and now here. Now he said he injured himself the match before, and still went out and played because he felt fine.
Honestly it's very simple with Henin Hardenne, if she was injured I understand why she stopped playing. But the I'm not feeling well, didn't fly very well with a lot of people.
John
Captain America
Rookie
This is a tough one. I think the reaction to JHH was so negative because the perception of many was that she simply quit. Onlyl she knows how sick she was. I think many people did not give her the benefit of the doubt because of a few instances of questionable behavior on her part.
Same with Nalbandian - it's tough to know how hurt he was, or whether if he was playing someone of lesser stature than Fed if he would have tried to ground out a win. My guess is that because he doesn't have the historical baggage of JHH, people are more likely to believe that his injury was legit....
Same with Nalbandian - it's tough to know how hurt he was, or whether if he was playing someone of lesser stature than Fed if he would have tried to ground out a win. My guess is that because he doesn't have the historical baggage of JHH, people are more likely to believe that his injury was legit....
Kaptain Karl
Hall Of Fame
You JHH defenders make me smile. I'm amazed at your ability to twist and equivocate just for her.
Justine is an enormous disappointment to me. Wonderful game ... classless personality. She has earned all the scorn she receives.
And there IS a big difference between retiring in a Final of a Slam event and retiring in even the Semis.
JHH's "heart" is supposed to be so legendary. Phooey!
Pete was vomiting ... Davenport played through back pain which limited her mobility (For her, a huge setback; she doesn't have much mobility in the first place.) ... Andre toughed out a First Round match with back pain. (I will admit, Nalbandian perplexes me. I'm not sure we've had the whole story on that one yet.)
Justine ... had a tummy ache.
- KK
Justine is an enormous disappointment to me. Wonderful game ... classless personality. She has earned all the scorn she receives.
And there IS a big difference between retiring in a Final of a Slam event and retiring in even the Semis.
JHH's "heart" is supposed to be so legendary. Phooey!
Pete was vomiting ... Davenport played through back pain which limited her mobility (For her, a huge setback; she doesn't have much mobility in the first place.) ... Andre toughed out a First Round match with back pain. (I will admit, Nalbandian perplexes me. I'm not sure we've had the whole story on that one yet.)
Justine ... had a tummy ache.
- KK
I wonder if the people criticizing Justine would be able to go through their job w/ just a "tummy ache." Frankly I suspect many people would be calling in sick if they were dehydrated or throwing up. I also doubt these people would be playing tennis... Regarding the AO, it was obvious in my opinion that she was affected before the match began b/c she could not play well. Otherwise she would have ran over Amelie or at the least given her the chance to choke! At any rate, Justine's history of battling and pushing her body to the limit is well documented. I don't think she would have stopped playing if she was not physically suffering.
superman1
Legend
Well, it wasn't just a regular day at the office for her. That was the day they all work their whole lives for: a Grand Slam final. It's like having a bad stomach and not going to work on the day that you are interviewing for a huge promotion. And there is only one other person interviewing for the same job. And you have a better resume. Or maybe it's more like going to the interview but then walking out in the middle of it because you feel you are not at 100% and they are not seeing you at your best.
Your point is taken; and I realize that it was a very important day; but to use your analogy if I threw up in an interview or felt like I was going to pass out, I'd probably leave in embarrassment. I have great respect for those like Sampras who could pull it off, but I do not fault those who are human.
I do respectfully disagree w/ the notion that it's okay to retire in early rounds but not in others? I remember last year when Agassi retired in the master's tournie, a lot of people were furious w/ him. I think it's just as wrong when someone gets a big appearance fee and then tanks in the first round. I believe that Marat Safin was even fined by the ATP for tanking (prior to his US Open win). The point of these examples is not to beat on Agassi/Safin but rather to ask for a reasoned view of Henin.
She had a great tournament and deserves to be recognized as a champion.
I do respectfully disagree w/ the notion that it's okay to retire in early rounds but not in others? I remember last year when Agassi retired in the master's tournie, a lot of people were furious w/ him. I think it's just as wrong when someone gets a big appearance fee and then tanks in the first round. I believe that Marat Safin was even fined by the ATP for tanking (prior to his US Open win). The point of these examples is not to beat on Agassi/Safin but rather to ask for a reasoned view of Henin.
She had a great tournament and deserves to be recognized as a champion.
Condoleezza
Banned
Kaptain Karl said:
There are tummy aches that are more serious than your usual excuses for skipping school.
Condi
Condoleezza
Banned
Roforot said:
Exactly.
Those hammering her for her Australian Open retirement are exclusively rather fanatical fans of other players. Envious fans ....
Condi
Condoleezza
Banned
superman1 said:
Henin has 7 GS finals and many more to come.
And has a history of overcoming aches and illnesses that you "Superman" would only beg for.
Condi
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