Why would a lighter racquet with a lower SW have more power?

[matchpointread]

Why does the Head Instinct S play more powerfully than the MP?

On screen (or paper), it looks like the exact same frame with a lighter SW and overall weight (specs below). Yet, my demo experience is inline with a video review saying the S version is more powerful, which makes me think it's more than just the strings.

Besides the "S" name, Head doesn't describe how or why this is like string spacing, for example. The Radical S has a bigger head size and a thicker beam compared to the MP, so an increase in power makes sense from what I know.

Does anyone have any info as to why this S version has more power?

And does this mean adding weight will give it more control somehow?




Head Graphene 360 Instinct S

Head Size:	100 sq. in. / 645 sq. cm.
Length:	27.00 inches / 68.58 cm
Strung Weight:	10.60 oz / 300 g
Balance:	4pts HL
Swing Weight:	309

Beam Width:	26.0mm
Tip/Shaft:	23.0mm / 23.0mm
Composition:	Graphene 360/Graphite
Power Level:	Low-Medium
Stiffness:	65

String Pattern:	16 Mains/19 Crosses
Main Skip:	8T,8H
String Tension:	48-57

Head Graphene 360 Instinct MP

Head Size:	100 sq. in. / 645 sq. cm.
Length:	27.00 inches / 68.58 cm
Strung Weight:	11.20 oz / 318 g
Balance:	4pts HL
Swing Weight:	320

Beam Width:	26.0mm
Tip/Shaft:	23.0mm / 23.0mm
Composition:	Graphene 360/Graphite
Power Level:	Low-Medium
Stiffness:	65

String Pattern:	16 Mains/19 Crosses
Main Skip:	8T,8H
String Tension:	48-57

 

[Vicious49]

I don’t know anything about these 2 racquets but if I recall my 10th grade physics correctly

Force = mass x acceleration

My guess Is you’re swinging the lighter racquet faster.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Agree with above. You are likely swinging the lighter racquet faster. Heavier racquets only produce more power if your swing speed stays constant.

 

[matchpointread]

I don’t know anything about these 2 racquets but if I recall my 10th grade physics correctly

Force = mass x acceleration

My guess Is you’re swinging the lighter racquet faster.

Agree with above. You are likely swinging the lighter racquet faster. Heavier racquets only produce more power if your swing speed stays constant.

Thanks for the input. I can't count it out.

However, it was more powerful when blocking back shots or trying tap the ball over the net. These are like volleys that don't use much RHS, so it makes me think something else is going on.

 

[danbrenner]

Thicker beam

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

Another example is prince rates the tour 290 higher power than the tour 310. They are identical racquets, just the 290 has less weight in the handle.

 

[matchpointread]

Thicker beam

??? huh ???

 

[danbrenner]

??? huh ???

What’s the name of this thread

 

[aaron_h27]

Head	Graphene 360 Instinct S	14.64
Head	Graphene 360 Radical MP	13.58

Twistweight values according to TWU, thats why the Instinct S is more powerful

 

[matchpointread]

Another example is prince rates the tour 290 higher power than the tour 310. They are identical racquets, just the 290 has less weight in the handle.

Interesting. Do you agree with the swing speed comments above? Or have another reason in mind?

 

[matchpointread]

What’s the name of this thread

Respectfully, there are more details than the title, sir. Both racquets have the same beam width.

 

[aaron_h27]

Thanks for the input. I can't count it out.

However, it was more powerful when blocking back shots or trying tap the ball over the net. These are like volleys that don't use much RHS, so it makes me think something else is going on.

Twistweight, look it up.

 

[matchpointread]

Head	Graphene 360 Instinct S	14.64
Head	Graphene 360 Radical MP	13.58

Twistweight values according to TWU, thats why the Instinct S is more powerful

Okay, thank you. I know twistweight impacts the torsional stability of the frame (can't say I know much at all, but curious).

This may be different thread question, but how should one consider twistweight when deciding on a racquet? Especially for someone who wants to be able to control flat shots?

 

[matchpointread]

Head	Graphene 360 Instinct S	14.64
Head	Graphene 360 Radical MP	13.58

Twistweight values according to TWU, thats why the Instinct S is more powerful

Twistweight, look it up.

Head

Graphene 360 Instinct S

14.64

HeadGraphene 360 Instinct MP14.94

Glad you insisted. The MP has both a higher SW and TW.

 

[aaron_h27]

Head

Graphene 360 Instinct S

14.64

HeadGraphene 360 Instinct MP14.94

Glad you insisted. The MP has both a higher SW and TW.

My apologies, I was not comparing the correct rackets.

If the MP has a higher SW and TW, with all other specs being the same (stiffness, string pattern, headsize) then the MP should be more powerful and if you're experiencing otherwise it's possible your rackets could be different from the TW specs posted, or the string set-ups are different or it's just in your head, but on paper the MP should be slightly more powerful (may not be noticeable because the specs are very close)

 

[esm]

@ OP - do you know the string setup,including tension for both the S and MP?

 

[Steve Huff]

Interesting. Do you agree with the swing speed comments above? Or have another reason in mind?

Personally, I don't agree with the swing speed comments. I would think that rackets being measured for power, when compared with each other, would imply "all other things being equal", which includes all variables that can be controlled.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

@matchpointread I believe it has to do with mass distribution. The more powerful racquet is polarized.

F=ma is true but not the right concept for this question. It’s about momentum transfer or conservation of momentum. Angular Momentum is mass times the square of the distance (I=mr^2). So mass twice as far from the handle has 4 times the momentum to transfer to the ball.

I have 2 similar racquets, within 5g total weight and just about same swing weight. But one has a ton more power. It’s the one that has internal weights around the hoop, ie more polarized.

It is entirely possible to have different weight distribution and still have the same weight, balance, and swing weight. That’s just simple math gymnastics.

 

[aaron_h27]

@matchpointread I believe it has to do with mass distribution. The more powerful racquet is polarized.

F=ma is true but not the right concept for this question. It’s about momentum transfer or conservation of momentum. Angular Momentum is mass times the square of the distance (I=mr^2). So mass twice as far from the handle has 4 times the momentum to transfer to the ball.

I have 2 similar racquets, within 5g total weight and just about same swing weight. But one has a ton more power. It’s the one that has internal weights around the hoop, ie more polarized.

It is entirely possible to have different weight distribution and still have the same weight, balance, and swing weight. That’s just simple math gymnastics.

this is incorrect, if two rackets have the same SW & balance point, the one with the higher static weight (less polarized) is more powerful because it has more weight on the sides of the hoop (higher twistweight)

so actually depolarized rackets are more powerful than polarized ones, which makes sense because the static weight is higher most of the times.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

this is incorrect, if two rackets have the same SW & balance point, the one with the higher static weight (less polarized) is more powerful because it has more weight on the sides of the hoop (higher twistweight)

so actually depolarized rackets are more powerful than polarized ones, which makes sense because the static weight is higher most of the times.

This doesn’t make sense. Why does the one with higher static weight have to have more weight in the sides of the hoop? Why not the handle, or at 6:00 or 12:00?

Why do you think hammers have all their weight concentrated in the head, and not in the handle?

 

[matchpointread]

@matchpointread I believe it has to do with mass distribution. The more powerful racquet is polarized.

F=ma is true but not the right concept for this question. It’s about momentum transfer or conservation of momentum. Angular Momentum is mass times the square of the distance (I=mr^2). So mass twice as far from the handle has 4 times the momentum to transfer to the ball.

I have 2 similar racquets, within 5g total weight and just about same swing weight. But one has a ton more power. It’s the one that has internal weights around the hoop, ie more polarized.

It is entirely possible to have different weight distribution and still have the same weight, balance, and swing weight. That’s just simple math gymnastics.

That's starting to make sense of my experience and the retailer's playtest on court. I don't know how exactly, but this point does further confirm how some on court experiences don't match up how a racquet is suppose to play.

Thanks!

 

[aaron_h27]

Actually this is incorrect. I have a 16 ounce hammer and a 20 ounce Hammer. If I try to drive a nail with the handle of the 20 ounce hammer, and the head of the 16 ounce hammer, which one do you think will be more effective? And which one will have faster ‘head speed’ of the part that’s hitting the nail?

delete.

 

[aaron_h27]

That's starting to make sense of my experience and the retailer's playtest on court. I don't know how exactly, but this point does further confirm how some on court experiences don't match up how a racquet is suppose to play.

Thanks!

delete.

 

[matchpointread]

@ OP - do you know the string setup,including tension for both the S and MP?

They were demo racquets that were strung by the retailer. They could have been strung differently, I don't think they were, but I can't know for sure.

The retailer's playtest video commenting on the greater power level pushes my belief towards this as well.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

Here’s some info from Tennis Warehouse tests:

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/racquetweighting.php

“It is clear from Figure 10a and 10b that power potential (ACOR x 100) increases as swingweight and hittingweight are increased due to adding or appropriately redistributing mass.”

We’re talking about racquets with the same swing weight, so that leaves hittingweight as the differentiator in power potential between the two racquets.

“Hittingweight is the "effective" weight (or effective mass, Me) of the racquet at the impact location.”

All from the same page:

1/Me = (1 / M) + (b2 / I) + (R2 / Iy) (Equation 5)

where, Me is the hittingweight, M is the mass of the racquet, b is the distance from the impact point to an axis through the balance point perpendicular to the racquet, I is the swingweight about the center of mass, R is the distance side-to-side of longitudinal axis of the impact point, and Iy is the twistweight (swingweight about the long axis).


We’re talking about two racquets with the same total mass, so the first part of the equation drops out (1/M). The second part of the equation says that Me gets bigger is I gets bigger; I is the swing weight about the center of mass, (not the same swing weight we normally talk about which is a few inches from the handle), And yes higher twist weight would help but it’s possible to have the same twist weight in both racquets, so this part of the equation also drops out.

Thus, for two racquets with similar swing weight (Swing weight at ~4 inches or whatever we normally use), similar total weight, and similar balance point, the racquet with more mass further from the balance point, ie, more polarized, has higher hitting weight.

So, re: the two racquets in question: per TWU Customizer, the difference between the two racquets could be 18g located at 13.8in, which is only 1” from the center of mass. That means lighter racquet has more mass farther away from the center of mass.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

If I’m missing something I’d love to see the data. I have this exact thing happening between my two racquets. The one that is Less swing weight has more mass in the hoop, and despite being the same weight and balance it feels ‘heavier’ to swing because the mass is further from my hand. To get similar response from my other racquet, I can add weight at 12:00 and use a heavier grip. That gives it similar feel and power, albeit it’s now technically a few grams heavier.

 

[aaron_h27]

This doesn’t make sense. Why does the one with higher static weight have to have more weight in the sides of the hoop? Why not the handle, or at 6:00 or 12:00?

Why do you think hammers have all their weight concentrated in the head, and not in the handle?

It makes perfect sense.

If two rackets have the same SW and balance point, but one racket is 20 grams heavier, all 20 grams can't be in the handle because the balance point is the same as the lighter one.

If all 20 grams were added to the handle, the balance points wouldn't be the same.

b/c both rackets have the same balance point & SW, the racket that is 20 grams heavier has to have more mass in the head (where else would it be?) but counter-balanced with some weight in the handle. If the extra mass was added at 12 o'clock, the SW would be much higher than the lighter racket, but it's not. Mass added at 3 & 9 doesn't make the SW go up as much as at 12.

More mass in the head = more swingweight = higher twistweight

So polarized rackets actually have less mass in the hoop than depolarized, IF THE SW & BALANCE POINT are the same, So your point about polarized racket = more power is incorrect.

 

[aaron_h27]

Here’s some info from Tennis Warehouse tests:

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/racquetweighting.php

“It is clear from Figure 10a and 10b that power potential (ACOR x 100) increases as swingweight and hittingweight are increased due to adding or appropriately redistributing mass.”

We’re talking about racquets with the same swing weight, so that leaves hittingweight as the differentiator in power potential between the two racquets.

“Hittingweight is the "effective" weight (or effective mass, Me) of the racquet at the impact location.”

All from the same page:

1/Me = (1 / M) + (b2 / I) + (R2 / Iy) (Equation 5)

where, Me is the hittingweight, M is the mass of the racquet, b is the distance from the impact point to an axis through the balance point perpendicular to the racquet, I is the swingweight about the center of mass, R is the distance side-to-side of longitudinal axis of the impact point, and Iy is the twistweight (swingweight about the long axis).


We’re talking about two racquets with the same total mass, so the first part of the equation drops out (1/M). The second part of the equation says that Me gets bigger is I gets bigger; I is the swing weight about the center of mass, (not the same swing weight we normally talk about which is a few inches from the handle), And yes higher twist weight would help but it’s possible to have the same twist weight in both racquets, so this part of the equation also drops out.

Thus, for two racquets with similar swing weight (Swing weight at ~4 inches or whatever we normally use), similar total weight, and similar balance point, the racquet with more mass further from the balance point, ie, more polarized, has higher hitting weight.

So, re: the two racquets in question: per TWU Customizer, the difference between the two racquets could be 18g located at 13.8in, which is only 1” from the center of mass. That means lighter racquet has more mass farther away from the center of mass.

Racket A : 300grams, 4pts HL, 320 SW

Racket B: 320 grams, 4pts HL, 320 SW

Racket A is more polarized, but racket B will be more powerful because there is more weight in the hoop.

adding 20 grams to the handle of racket A will not turn it into racket B.

Racket B has a higher twistweight & effective mass than racket A.

What are you confused about?

 

[aaron_h27]

"Effective Mass is different than Swingweight, because an extended length racquet might have a high swingweight, but still have little mass in the racquethead."

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/optimum-racquet-balance-for-performance-ii-mgr-i-data-for-atp-pros.387805/

 

[socallefty]

Unless you know the strings, tension and hours on the stringjob, it is hard to use demos to do fine-detail comparisons between different racquets. Demos only give a general sense of whether a racquet can potentially work or not from a stability and maneuverability standpoint.

The good news as you discovered is that you can dramatically change the power, control, spin, feel etc. of a racquet with different strings and tensions. The same racquet can have a wide performance range depending on how you string it especially if you start venturing into hybrid string jobs and adding lead tape.

If you somewhat like a racquet after a demo including the brand and how it looks, just buy it and experiment with strings and tensions till it plays just right for your game.

 

[matchpointread]

My apologies, I was not comparing the correct rackets.

If the MP has a higher SW and TW, with all other specs being the same (stiffness, string pattern, headsize) then the MP should be more powerful and if you're experiencing otherwise it's possible your rackets could be different from the TW specs posted, or the string set-ups are different or it's just in your head, but on paper the MP should be slightly more powerful (may not be noticeable because the specs are very close)

So, in a nutshell, you think it's impossible for the S to be more powerful than the MP if the strings are the same and the racquets are on spec? And same goes for the Prince Tour examples given here as well as Joe G's racquets?

 

[matchpointread]

Unless you know the strings, tension and hours on the stringjob, it is hard to use demos to do fine-detail comparisons between different racquets. Demos only give a general sense of whether a racquet can potentially work or not from a stability and maneuverability standpoint.

The good news as you discovered is that you can dramatically change the power, control, spin, feel etc. of a racquet with different strings and tensions. The same racquet can have a wide performance range depending on how you string it especially if you start venturing into hybrid string jobs and adding lead tape.

If you somewhat like a racquet after a demo including the brand and how it looks, just buy it and experiment with strings and tensions till it plays just right for your game.

When I asked the question, I assumed the "S" is for spin with Head. Maybe it's for speed, but I wanted to know what makes them different so I can understand more about racquet types in the future.

I bought the MP from a big golf store retailer after it sold out from the store I demoed from. It seemed alright at first, but then I realized the weight was lopsided towards the upper part of the hoop on one side(at 10 or 2 depending). I returned it, and they're sold out as well.

Now I'm very apprehensive about buying a Head racquet, but the Instinct fit me the best. So, even though I have cold feet, I have ordered the S version to be matched around the listed spec. But the power level was a question bouncing around in my head.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

I respectfully disagree.

If you go to TWU customizer and enter the specs of the lighter racquet, and try to make the heavier racquet, it actually does tell you to add 18 grams to the throat, near 6:00, for the first solution.

There is nothing that says the twist weight has to change between these racquets, and nothing that equates swing weight with twist weight. They can have identical weighting around the periphery of the hoop. You can put the weight difference anywhere, it doesn’t have to be at the sides of the hoop. You can make all the changes to go from racquet A to racquet B without putting weight near the sides.

If you look up how added weight changes racquet behavior, all the threads say that adding weight at 12:00 results in the most increase in power. Adding weight at 3:00 and 9:00 adds stability (resistance to twisting on off-center hits.) If you want a combination of power and stability, then the recommendation is 2:00 and 10:00. Again shifting weight toward the tip for more power. Then you can keep the same balance by putting a couple grams under the grip, have the same feel and balance, and have more power.

I understand we have different ‘opinions.’ I also understand that people put a lot of focus on swing weight, and yet there’s a pretty noticeable lack of understanding of the effects of mass distribution. I mean, I’m not saying I totally understand it either, but the physics I mentioned seem to line up pretty well with my experience. And the physics I came up with also seem to match TWU’s experimental data. And that data says twist weight CAN be a piece of the puzzle but is not necessarily.

Are there any threads that say to add weight at the balance point to increase power? Any experience to back that up?

 

[aaron_h27]

I respectfully disagree.

If you go to TWU customizer and enter the specs of the lighter racquet, and try to make the heavier racquet, it actually does tell you to add 18 grams to the throat, near 6:00, for the first solution.

There is nothing that says the twist weight has to change between these racquets, and nothing that equates swing weight with twist weight. They can have identical weighting around the periphery of the hoop. You can put the weight difference anywhere, it doesn’t have to be at the sides of the hoop. You can make all the changes to go from racquet A to racquet B without putting weight near the sides.

If you look up how added weight changes racquet behavior, all the threads say that adding weight at 12:00 results in the most increase in power. Adding weight at 3:00 and 9:00 adds stability (resistance to twisting on off-center hits.) If you want a combination of power and stability, then the recommendation is 2:00 and 10:00. Again shifting weight toward the tip for more power. Then you can keep the same balance by putting a couple grams under the grip, have the same feel and balance, and have more power.

I understand we have different ‘opinions.’ I also understand that people put a lot of focus on swing weight, and yet there’s a pretty noticeable lack of understanding of the effects of mass distribution. I mean, I’m not saying I totally understand it either, but the physics I mentioned seem to line up pretty well with my experience. And the physics I came up with also seem to match TWU’s experimental data. And that data says twist weight CAN be a piece of the puzzle but is not necessarily.

Are there any threads that say to add weight at the balance point to increase power? Any experience to back that up?

Well regardless, the twistweight IS higher for the heavier racket as reported in this thread. Also lead on the throat or at 6 o clock, marginally increases the TW a bit, hopefully this is not too complex for you.

Do more research and hopefully you'll understand, it's more complex than just "putting weight at 12 adds power", putting weight anywhere adds power.

more weight on the hoop or even throat = higher twisweight = more power. All things being equal. Nothing to do with polarization. That's why a 90 inch frame is less powerful than a 100 inch (at the same SW), the 100 inch frame will be more powerful because of the higher twistweight. It's really not hard to understand.

 

[aaron_h27]

So, in a nutshell, you think it's impossible for the S to be more powerful than the MP if the strings are the same and the racquets are on spec? And same goes for the Prince Tour examples given here as well as Joe G's racquets?

Yes it sounds impossible to me, the first racket has a lower SW, Twistweight and static weight, but the same stiffness as the heavier one.

and 11 SW points is quite a big difference, so I don't know what phenomenon you are experiencing other than strings.

 

[Tommy Haas]

The title of this thread is only true if the frame is mega stiff.

 

[matchpointread]

@matchpointread I believe it has to do with mass distribution. The more powerful racquet is polarized.

F=ma is true but not the right concept for this question. It’s about momentum transfer or conservation of momentum. Angular Momentum is mass times the square of the distance (I=mr^2). So mass twice as far from the handle has 4 times the momentum to transfer to the ball.

I have 2 similar racquets, within 5g total weight and just about same swing weight. But one has a ton more power. It’s the one that has internal weights around the hoop, ie more polarized.

It is entirely possible to have different weight distribution and still have the same weight, balance, and swing weight. That’s just simple math gymnastics.

What 2 racquets do you own in this example? Do you know the twistweights?

I'm thinking if a lighter racquet has a lower twistweight, the RHS from low to high would be greater. This may not explain the felt raw power overall, but seems like a possible factor on court.

I looked up some TWs of racquets, and I tend to like ones with a higher TW. I think it gives a more controlled response.

 

[aaron_h27]

What 2 racquets do you own in this example? Do you know the twistweights?

I'm thinking if a lighter racquet has a lower twistweight, the RHS from low to high would be greater. This may not explain the felt raw power overall, but seems like a possible factor on court.

I looked up some TWs of racquets, and I tend to like ones with a higher TW. I think it gives a more controlled response.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-official-lead-tape-placement-racket-customization-thread.309803/

 

[EasternRocks]

Beam and stiffness.

 

[franks]

Head Graphene 360 Instinct S

Head Size:​	100 sq. in. / 645 sq. cm.
Length:​	27.00 inches / 68.58 cm
Strung Weight:​	10.60 oz / 300 g
Balance:​	4pts HL
Swing Weight:​	309

Head Graphene 360 Instinct MP

Head Size:​	100 sq. in. / 645 sq. cm.
Length:​	27.00 inches / 68.58 cm
Strung Weight:​	11.20 oz / 318 g +++++++
Balance:​	4pts HL
Swing Weight:​	320 ++++++++

Based on both the higher Strung weight and the higher Swing weight, the Graphene 360 Instinct MP has to be more powerful. The rest of the specs appear to be the same.