Would Kuerten have been able to beat Nadal on clay?

[tennis_hack]

Kuerten has, in his favor, a strong and reliable 1hbh with the most extreme backhand grip in pro-tour history (semi-western one-handed backhand grip), which means he would probably have been able to handle high balls better than any pro we see on tour at the moment from that wing. Not only is his strike-zone high relative to his height, but he was tall anyway at 6ft 3in, so the force of Nadal's high forehands would have been further dampened.

He hit heavy spin from both wings, so may have been able to push Nadal back and possibly pin him on his backhand.

He also volleyed exceptionally well, so would have an option to approach and win some quick points to pressurize and keep Nadal unsettled on the baseline.

Movement may have been an issue, however, and, possibly, fitness as well. But, remember, this guy is a 3x Roland Garros winner, has beaten peak Federer there even when old and washed up, and could have won more if his career was not hindered continually by injury.

So what do you think - would Kuerten have been able to beat Nadal on clay?

 

[Guy Incognito]

 

[jackson vile]

The FO had to change the balls, stop wetting the surface and everything else they could possibly do just so that Nadal would lose once. Soderling was hitting bigger than anyone else in the history of the FO. He was able to defeat both Nadal and Federer once. That was it.

 

[President]

Guga could definitely get a few wins at the clay Masters events (especially Rome and Hamburg/Madrid) if they played often enough, I don't think he would beat him at RG but he could definitely push him hard.

 

[heninfan99]

Guga would have beaten Nada the first one or two meetings.

 

[Incognito]

At RG, 2005-2008 Hell NO. 2009-2013, he has to play out of his skin, he will have a chance.

 

[RNadal]

Guga was the real deal when it came to clay. His favorite shot was the BH and he was very aggressive on the court. I am sure he would stand a chance. Delightful player!

 

[objectivity]

yes of course. he wouldn't have given nadal so many opportunities to "abuse his backhand"... because he isn't so reliant on his inside-out forehand.

 

[TennisOcean]

Guga could definitely get a few wins at the clay Masters events (especially Rome and Hamburg/Madrid) if they played often enough, I don't think he would beat him at RG but he could definitely push him hard.

Yes, this.
Kuerten was a great clay player no doubt about that, 3 french opens that's awesome.
BUT he was in general more fragile, do you remember Michael Russell had match point against him at the FO ?

His backhand is similar to Wawrinka's and Nadal is not bothered at all with Wawrinka's backhand.

Kuerten could beat him a few times though in tournaments like Barcelone where Nadal would not be playing his best tennis.

 

[90's Clay]

Yea he would take a few French Opens. Hes an even worse matchup for Nadal than Nole is IMO especially on clay.

Kuerten is also the 2nd best clay courter of the last 20-25 years

 

[Tennis_Monk]

Yea he would take a few French Opens. Hes an even worse matchup for Nadal than Nole is IMO especially on clay.

Kuerten is also the 2nd best clay courter of the last 20-25 years

With all due respect to Guga and to your opinion, I disagree assuming we are talking both players meet at their peak.

Guga could have easily beaten Rafa in late 90's (as he would be facing Baby Nadal) but a peak Nadal, no chance.

 

[90's Clay]

With all due respect to Guga and to your opinion, I disagree assuming we are talking both players meet at their peak.

Guga could have easily beaten Rafa in late 90's (as he would be facing Baby Nadal) but a peak Nadal, no chance.

Who knows. Guga at his peak was farrrr better on clay than anyone Nadal beat at his peak.. SO you can never be sure.

Guga is big, was one of the best at sliding on clay, you couldn't expose his BH, he could hit penetrating shots and extreme depth.

Nadal is obviously the greatest ever on clay but he hasn't played anyone on par with a prime/peak Kuerten either

 

[tennis_hack]

Yes, this.
Kuerten was a great clay player no doubt about that, 3 french opens that's awesome.
BUT he was in general more fragile, do you remember Michael Russell had match point against him at the FO ?

His backhand is similar to Wawrinka's and Nadal is not bothered at all with Wawrinka's backhand.

Kuerten could beat him a few times though in tournaments like Barcelone where Nadal would not be playing his best tennis.

I agree his backhand looks similar to Wawrinka's in the opening of the chest and the torso rotation, but Kuerten's backhand grip is a whole bevel over from Wawrinka's, (which is huge change in grip for backhands), thus better for dealing with high balls, plus Kuerten is some 4 inches taller than Wawrinka, so could likely handle the high forehand better still.

 

[2ndServe]

kuerten was also very tall and lanky, I'm not sure the high bouncing balls would affect him as much. Looked taller than 6'3 and even well past his prime after a few hip injuries and surgeries he man handled Fed at his last or 2nd to last french open. 4 4 and 4. Plus the French crowd would give him quite the boost. I'm not sure there was ever a crowd that loved a player like the French and Guga.

 

[droliver]

Nadal (or Federer in peak form) would be heavy favorites over Kuerten. I don't think he really has anything to hurt him aside from the serve. Kuerten's so-so court coverage would be really exposed versus Nadal and i have no reason to think he handles the high backhand better then everyone else. I see a lot of 6-2 or 6-3 sets in all honesty

 

[Vcore89]

Oh yes, Rafa won't be bothering Guga's backhand! On the contrary, Guga is gonna wreck havoc to Rafa's righty forehand!:???:

 

[BorisBeckerFan]

Obviously Nadal would dominate but if their careers had perfectly aligned time wise, Nadal would not have 8 FO. I'm positive Guga would have wrestled at least 2 away from him.

 

[rafazx10]

I agree with most.

He probably would have beaten Nadal a few times, just not consistently.
Would be a toss up between them IMO.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

Who doesnt like Guga-so bias or fanboyism isnt the issue here.

But Guga won 'only' 3 FO in his career. Ofcouse there are no empirical answers here as they never played each other at their peaks. In my book, Rafa will get better of Guga if they played at their peak under current conditions.

 

[dominikk1985]

Nadal (or Federer in peak form) would be heavy favorites over Kuerten. I don't think he really has anything to hurt him aside from the serve. Kuerten's so-so court coverage would be really exposed versus Nadal and i have no reason to think he handles the high backhand better then everyone else. I see a lot of 6-2 or 6-3 sets in all honesty

wasn't fed 2004 in peak form when he lost against past prime guga in straight sets?

 

[Anaconda]

wasn't fed 2004 in peak form when he lost against past prime guga in straight sets?

Think of that though, kuerten - on one hip, managed to straight set Federer in 2004. Besides Nadal and Djokovic in 2008, I don't think any player has straight setted Federer at a slam (and Kuerten contrasts to Djokovic and Nadal here in terms of where these guys were in their careers).



If I had to pick one player on their day to beat Nadal at the FO, I would have no hesitation of saying Guga would be my man in this debate; Definitely a worthy opponent for Nadal on clay, that's for sure.

 

[granddog29]

Kuerten was inconsistent on clay but on his best day he would have a fighting chance vs anyone, including Nadal. Certainly more than Federer or Djokovic have, considering Djokovic is even regularly bested by a way past his clay prime Nadal on clay, and will continue to be probably even more easily as his own decline on slower surfaces is likely near.

 

[ubi1]

Maybe in masters not in best of 5. Guys we are all forgetting Rafa is like 70-1 in best of 5 set matches on clay and that loss was a fluke and has been taken to 5 sets only twice at RG in 9 appearances.

 

[granddog29]

Kuerten was his most dangeorus at Garros though. If anythiing that is where his best chance for an upset of Nadal would be. He is the only player in the Open Era I can think of who would be a realistic threat to Nadal at Garros other than a major fluke type win (eg Soderling).

 

[rajah84]

Think of that though, kuerten - on one hip, managed to straight set Federer in 2004. Besides Nadal and Djokovic in 2008, I don't think any player has straight setted Federer at a slam (and Kuerten contrasts to Djokovic and Nadal here in terms of where these guys were in their careers).



If I had to pick one player on their day to beat Nadal at the FO, I would have no hesitation of saying Guga would be my man in this debate; Definitely a worthy opponent for Nadal on clay, that's for sure.

It's highly doubtful that Guga could beat Nadal more than once on clay. Guga - being an artistic shot maker - was one of the most overrated players of all time. He was veeeery inconsistent and never dominated on his best surface. He would often lose to other good clay players. Unlike Nadal, winning on clay was never easy for Guga.

Anyone who remembers the 04RG loss knows that Federer didn't care and Guga wan't at his best either. I wouldn't use that match to gauge anything.

Federer would destroy Guga and did and with Nadal, I don't even want to think about what he would do to Guga. This debate reminds me a lot of the "would Sampras beat Federer" times 1000.

 

[phishbiscuits]

We can never know.

 

[monfed]

Yes because IMO Guga is the clay GOAT along with Borg even though he has only 3 RGs,remember he had many injuries which stopped him from winning.
A hip busted Kuerten utterly dismantled prime Federer in straight sets at RG 04,go back and look at the highlights of the match,Fed had no answers and couldn't even take him to a tiebreak. Kuerten had no weaknesses and has IMO the greatest 1HBH for high bouncing balls so Ralph's spinners wouldn't bother him. He was strong of both wings,certainly had a better BH that Ralph and a very good topspin FH for clay courts and could flatten out his FH at will. No shortage of power from Guga's racquet and certainly a great server and mover as well. He wouldn't have to run very fast from corner to corner like Fed does simply because he didn't have a weak BH.
Guga on fire is an unstoppable force on clay and IMO is the highest level of clay court tennis ever seen so ofcourse he'd beat Ralph on clay.

 

[Clarky21]

Yes because IMO Guga is the clay GOAT along with Borg even though he has only 3 RGs,remember he had many injuries which stopped him from winning.
A hip busted Kuerten utterly dismantled prime Federer in straight sets at RG 04,go back and look at the highlights of the match,Fed had no answers and couldn't even take him to a tiebreak. Kuerten had no weaknesses and has IMO the greatest 1HBH for high bouncing balls so Ralph's spinners wouldn't bother him. He was strong of both wings,certainly had a better BH that Ralph and a very good topspin FH for clay courts and could flatten out his FH at will. No shortage of power from Guga's racquet and certainly a great server and mover as well. He wouldn't have to run very fast from corner to corner like Fed does simply because he didn't have a weak BH.
Guga on fire is an unstoppable force on clay and IMO is the highest level of clay court tennis ever seen so ofcourse he'd beat Ralph on clay.

You are such a troll.

 

[monfed]

You are such a troll.

Before calling me a troll, atleast have the decency to highlight the entire sentence and not just part of it to suit your argument.(referring to the first one) :lol:

 

[Anaconda]

It's highly doubtful that Guga could beat Nadal more than once on clay. Guga - being an artistic shot maker - was one of the most overrated players of all time. He was veeeery inconsistent and never dominated on his best surface. He would often lose to other good clay players. Unlike Nadal, winning on clay was never easy for Guga.

Anyone who remembers the 04RG loss knows that Federer didn't care and Guga wan't at his best either. I wouldn't use that match to gauge anything.

Federer would destroy Guga and did and with Nadal, I don't even want to think about what he would do to Guga. This debate reminds me a lot of the "would Sampras beat Federer" times 1000.

Kuerten won the FO 3 times, he is clearly the second best clay courter after Nadal in the past 20 years, I don't see how anyone with 3 slams can be overrated. Who else could beat Nadal at FO? Muster? Chang? Moya? All one slam winners and these guys don't come close to Guga. Federer wouldn't destroy Guga, Federer can't even destroy Davydenko or Nalbandian at FO, never mind a three time champion.

 

[Magnetite]

I voted yes, because of how the question is phrased. He would be able to beat Nadal on clay at some point.

Who would win the H2H? Obviously Nadal would be ahead, probably by at least a 2:1 ratio.

 

[DMP]

Kuerten has, in his favor, a strong and reliable 1hbh with the most extreme backhand grip in pro-tour history (semi-western one-handed backhand grip), which means he would probably have been able to handle high balls better than any pro we see on tour at the moment from that wing. Not only is his strike-zone high relative to his height, but he was tall anyway at 6ft 3in, so the force of Nadal's high forehands would have been further dampened.

He hit heavy spin from both wings, so may have been able to push Nadal back and possibly pin him on his backhand.

He also volleyed exceptionally well, so would have an option to approach and win some quick points to pressurize and keep Nadal unsettled on the baseline.

Movement may have been an issue, however, and, possibly, fitness as well. But, remember, this guy is a 3x Roland Garros winner, has beaten peak Federer there even when old and washed up, and could have won more if his career was not hindered continually by injury.

So what do you think - would Kuerten have been able to beat Nadal on clay?

Don't know*, but I do know that it would be high up my list of must-see matchups ever.

* both have huge strengths on clay.

 

[rajah84]

Kuerten won the FO 3 times, he is clearly the second best clay courter after Nadal in the past 20 years, I don't see how anyone with 3 slams can be overrated. Who else could beat Nadal at FO? Muster? Chang? Moya? All one slam winners and these guys don't come close to Guga. Federer wouldn't destroy Guga, Federer can't even destroy Davydenko or Nalbandian at FO, never mind a three time champion.

3 FO's sounds good, but he struggled mightily to win in 2000-2001, he came out of nowhere to win the first one.

Of course he's the second best in the past 20, but the topic is "would he beat Nadal" I assume that means more than once and includes a win at MC or RG. I highly doubt it. Guga's the type of player who relied too much on rhythm and he would also get tight. At RG Nadal is arguably the most clutch player ever, mentally they don't match up.

Anyone can be overrated. Federer is overrated. Pretty much everyone believed Federer was unbeatable, then came Nadal. Guga had the iconic game and personality of a legend, he won 3 FO's right? But he was inconsistent throughout, and lost to players he should have beaten, and he wasn't the strongest player mentally either. I think he could beat Nadal, somewhere other than RG. Prime Nadal is too strong mentally at RG.

If we're going to be unfair and include the 04RG loss where a jaded Federer went down meekly to an old broken down Guga, then I'm going to count 02 Hamburg Fed def. Kuerten, 6-0 1-6 6-2 And that was pre prime Fed.

 

[90's Clay]

Well Nadal (especially early on) did have his struggles with Fed at the French Open. Then post 2008 (His peak unstoppable years) he had issues again. Most notably with guys like Soderling, Nole and Isner. Kurerten had wayy more ability on clay than ANY of those guys, and just from a pure matchup point of view, Kuerten probably possessed the game that Nadal hates seeing. Hes big, he can move, he can take the ball early, spin doesn't really affect his BH.

I wouldn't expect Kuerten to beat peak Nadal on clay, but there were quite a few other years where Nadal's level (especially) just wasn't quite up to par to where someone like Kuerten ( or even Wilander, Rosewall, Borg, Lendl etc) could have won their share

 

[SoBad]

Yes because IMO Guga is the clay GOAT along with Borg even though he has only 3 RGs,remember he had many injuries which stopped him from winning.
A hip busted Kuerten utterly dismantled prime Federer in straight sets at RG 04,go back and look at the highlights of the match,Fed had no answers and couldn't even take him to a tiebreak. Kuerten had no weaknesses and has IMO the greatest 1HBH for high bouncing balls so Ralph's spinners wouldn't bother him. He was strong of both wings,certainly had a better BH that Ralph and a very good topspin FH for clay courts and could flatten out his FH at will. No shortage of power from Guga's racquet and certainly a great server and mover as well. He wouldn't have to run very fast from corner to corner like Fed does simply because he didn't have a weak BH.
Guga on fire is an unstoppable force on clay and IMO is the highest level of clay court tennis ever seen so ofcourse he'd beat Ralph on clay.

LOL, just because the hip busted Kuerten utterly dismantled prime Stososov in straight sets at RG 04, doesn’t mean he could take a set from Nadal.

 

[Dave1982]

I'm sure he might have got the occasional win against him at a Masters event but come French Open, assuming both are at their peak there's no chance of Kuerten ever being favored for the win.

 

[jm1980]

I'm sure he might have got the occasional win against him at a Masters event but come French Open, assuming both are at their peak there's no chance of Kuerten ever being favored for the win.

I don't think anybody, including Borg, would be favored at the French against Nadal. But it would not surprise me if Guga won a couple of their (hypothetical) matches.

 

[beltsman]

Broken hip Guga destroyed physical prime Fed, and peak Fed got destroyed by Bull at RG...soooo?

 

[Algo]

Toss up

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Didn't Kuerten himself once refer to Rafa as the greatest clay court player of all times? Even granting that that sounds like an obvious statement, it's Nadal. Of the old clay court specialists, Coria was the one who seemed to bother him and probably could have beaten him at Rome. Because Coria was damn quick, unlike Kuerten, and covered everything. But Coria was also a choker and would have lost to Rafa anyway. Kuerten had to overcome a mountain to beat Norman in 2000. Come on, Nadal is in another league even if Kuerten was probably the greatest of the 90s clay court players.

 

[Shaolin]

I know I'd pay good money to see him try.

My guess is that Guga would win 1 out of 5 meetings on clay vs prime Nadal.

 

[Dave1982]

I don't think anybody, including Borg, would be favored at the French against Nadal. But it would not surprise me if Guga won a couple of their (hypothetical) matches.

Absolutely and I'm sure over 10 matches the H2H would see Kuerten win a couple....both at their peak though, no way Nadal is losing over 5 sets at Roland Garros to Kuerten.

 

[duaneeo]

Kuerten has, in his favor, a strong and reliable 1hbh with the most extreme backhand grip in pro-tour history (semi-western one-handed backhand grip), which means he would probably have been able to handle high balls better than any pro we see on tour at the moment from that wing.

I voted no. Nadal would have resorted to his typical strategy when he faces a 1hbh, and Kuerten never faced lefty forehands as high and with as many revolutions like those from Nadal. And with both players being baseliners, movement/fitness would have played a large factor, with the advantage to Nadal.

 

[MichaelNadal]

The KOC would carve him up.

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

On clay he could, Monte Carlo, etc
Peak vs Peak at the French Open? Nadal wins every match

 

[Deleted member 716271]

No

 

[RanchDressing]

Think of that though, kuerten - on one hip, managed to straight set Federer in 2004. Besides Nadal and Djokovic in 2008, I don't think any player has straight setted Federer at a slam (and Kuerten contrasts to Djokovic and Nadal here in terms of where these guys were in their careers).



If I had to pick one player on their day to beat Nadal at the FO, I would have no hesitation of saying Guga would be my man in this debate; Definitely a worthy opponent for Nadal on clay, that's for sure.

Stanimal has

 

[Zoid]

I agree his backhand looks similar to Wawrinka's in the opening of the chest and the torso rotation, but Kuerten's backhand grip is a whole bevel over from Wawrinka's, (which is huge change in grip for backhands), thus better for dealing with high balls, plus Kuerten is some 4 inches taller than Wawrinka, so could likely handle the high forehand better still.

Wawrinka doesn't hit the classic backhand, he uses his hips and shoulders much more which is why he can deal with high balls without an extreme backhand grip. He 'rolls' the wrist over the high balls and uses rotation for power, rather than plow through like a classic backhand.

Well Nadal (especially early on) did have his struggles with Fed at the French Open. Then post 2008 (His peak unstoppable years) he had issues again. Most notably with guys like Soderling, Nole and Isner. Kurerten had wayy more ability on clay than ANY of those guys, and just from a pure matchup point of view, Kuerten probably possessed the game that Nadal hates seeing. Hes big, he can move, he can take the ball early, spin doesn't really affect his BH.

lol.

I wouldn't expect Kuerten to beat peak Nadal on clay, but there were quite a few other years where Nadal's level (especially) just wasn't quite up to par to where someone like Kuerten ( or even Wilander, Rosewall, Borg, Lendl etc) could have won their share

Yea maybe in the first couple of rounds, but by the second week Rafa ain't losing to guga at the french.

 

[Zoid]

Kuerten was using poly strings before anyone else. Guy was 60 in the world and unheard of when he won his first french. I don't see him getting a sniff against rafa at RG. People forget way too quickly.
Guy lost to nube teenage safin the very next year in the second round.

Anyone who is unbiased knows Fed played pretty ratsheeeet in that 04 match yet lovers of the 90s (you know clay) will go straight to this match and jump up and down about it. Bookies had Guga a $4 outsider at least for that it was a massive upset. It wasn't a case of Guga playing unreal either, yet people don't mention that.

 

[adil1972]

how about maybe or maybe not