Yet another 30+ player reaches career high ranking ! It's Pablo Cuevas at #20 !

[buscemi]

This weak era meme just won't die, will it?
So 2015. People have moved on. Come on trolls, come up with something new.

Feddy was an absolute beast in those years, especially in slams. End of discussion right there.

Nice username tho

Who is saying anything about a weak era? As you note, Federer was a an absolute beast in 2004 and 2005. Hewitt, even with a better serve (although presumably not as good of a serve as Fed) would not have had a realistic shot to beat Federer at Wimbledon either of those two years. That said, Hewitt was a very solid grass courter. I don't think it minimizes Hewitt in any way to say that a better serve would not have been enough to get him past peak Roger on grass.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Who is saying anything about a weak era? As you note, Federer was a an absolute beast in 2004 and 2005. Hewitt, even with a better serve (although presumably not as good of a serve as Fed) would not have had a realistic shot to beat Federer at Wimbledon either of those two years. That said, Hewitt was a very solid grass courter. I don't think it minimizes Hewitt in any way to say that a better serve would not have been enough to get him past peak Roger on grass.

Never mind, I misunderstood what you were saying. All good.

My post just goes out to the weak era theorists then.

 

[Meles]

I think you give too much importance to the strings in the current failures of the young guys. These strings are not as new, they are around since the early 2000's. Kuerten break through with them in 1997 (and I think he is a bit overrated because his string advantage is not taken into account. Bringing polystring on clay is like bringing a lightsaber at the battle of Minas Tirith). Players adopted them sooner or later (would be very interesting to now more about this, it could explain why the 75's generation of Kafelnikov, Rafter, Rios, etc. was so quickly replaced by the 80's generation) but I guess most players adopted them in the early 00's at last. Nadal developed with them. Same for Murray, Djokovic, Del Potro, Gasquet, Tsonga, etc. These players broke through in their early 20's, playing against more experienced players who were using polystrings for a few years already.

I think it would be very interesting to document the racket or string changes, it could explain many sweeping currents we saw in the game.

We pretty much see things the same way. I'd love to know when player x went poly. Time will tell on the new players, but no doubt the lost generation of mid-twenties players is not awe inspiring. The younger ones are just coming into their own and we'll see what we get in the next few years.

 

[Meles]

Delete

 

[Flash O'Groove]

We pretty much see things the same way. I'd love to know when player x went poly. Time will tell on the new players, but no doubt the lost generation of mid-twenties players is not awe inspiring. The younger ones are just coming into their own and we'll see what we get in the next few years.

I would specially be interested in the 75s generation (Kafelnikov, Rios, Moya, Henman, Enqvist, Kuerten, etc.) which was subpar as well. They had trouble imposing themselves on the 70's generation (extremely rich generation with Sampras, Agassi, Ivanisevic, Stitch, Chang, Muster, Brugurea, Courier, Rafter etc.). When the 70's crew declined too markedly, they were replaced by the 80's brigade of young champions like Hewitt, Safin, Ferrero, Federer, Roddick. The competition in the early 2000's was between the 70's generation and the 80's generation. We didn't really saw a rivalry between Safin and Kafelnikov for example.

Maybe these players of the 75's were in part non-competitive against the youngsters because they failed to use poly, except Kuerten who is the most achieved player of this group.

 

[Meles]

I would specially be interested in the 75s generation (Kafelnikov, Rios, Moya, Henman, Enqvist, Kuerten, etc.) which was subpar as well. They had trouble imposing themselves on the 70's generation (extremely rich generation with Sampras, Agassi, Ivanisevic, Stitch, Chang, Muster, Brugurea, Courier, Rafter etc.). When the 70's crew declined too markedly, they were replaced by the 80's brigade of young champions like Hewitt, Safin, Ferrero, Federer, Roddick. The competition in the early 2000's was between the 70's generation and the 80's generation. We didn't really saw a rivalry between Safin and Kafelnikov for example.

Maybe these players of the 75's were in part non-competitive against the youngsters because they failed to use poly, except Kuerten who is the most achieved player of this group.

Kuerten and Fed after a while took to Poly like a duck to water. The generation concept of looking at groups of players is foreign to me so forgive my not responding completely in kind. The early 90s was really something as you mention with the 70s generation and then throw in Lendl, Edberg, and Becker for good measure. The resulting Sampras vs Agassi rivalry was always a bit of a dissappointment as Sampras seemed the foregone conlcusion at the US Open and Wimbledon. I was definitely an Agassi fan all along though Courier was great. Its amazing that he was done by age 23 in slams. The 80's generations as you call it was initially very weak though I greatly enjoyed Roddick and Hewitt's early slam victories. Ultimately, both had incomplete games. Its amazing how Federer took off on Poly and the rest of the 80's group quickly declined for a variety of reasons (Roddick held on with the huge weapon that was his serve.) The 85s setup camp at the top of the game and only Soderling and Delpo took an early exit for health reasons.

My questions about the 85s and the current players coming up is when did they play with Poly? Were they jumping on the strings at the same time as Fed (2002) and used them during their teens. Given the expense, are the current preteen juniors all on poly? Thiem for example was put on the one handed backhand at age 12, 10 years ago by Bresnik. Both of his parents were tennis coaches. I'm pretty confident his game was developed with Poly in mind. The lost generation of Nishikori, Raonic, Goffin, and Dimitrov would be very interesting to see when they made the jump. You would think by mid-teens, but I'm not sure they were born and bred on the stuff. The lost generation all have incomplete games, but Goffin may quietely becoming one of the greatest returners the game has seen.

The 95s are an interesting bunch and we'll see how they develop in the next few years. Pouille, Thiem, Zverev, and Kyrgios all have fairly complete games. Pouille is the most interesting story at the moment as he is a shorter player who is starting to come into his own (I've stated elsewhere that high bouncing power poly game too much for weaker youngsters and only the really tall players have broken through at a younger age (Cilic, Delpo, Tomic, Raonic, Kyrgios, Zverev, etc.) Pouille was completely under the radar until his results this Spring. The game is almost favoring late developers like Pouille and Herbert (doubles). Pouille has all the weapons, but seems a bit chunky for a tennis player. He may turn out to be a great one if he continues to train hard sheding the baby fat. Both he and Thiem have never done much on North American hard courts and we'll soon see if they now have the game to handle these high bouncing courts.

Far and away the youngest 95er is Shapovolav who just won Wimbledon. He's a throwback if ever there was one and may be the next best candidate to break through at an earlier age. Currently 6 feet tall at age 17. Left handed Edberg with better serve, volleys, and backhand (little bit of hype here.) Plays at Citi today, but untelevised.

 

[Gary Duane]

@Gary Duane I think Hewitt's main problems serve wise was the percentage, his first serve was actually pretty good - he scored more aces than Federer in 2004. His second serve was also very reliable.

You have to be very careful when you talk about aces without talking about DFs. On grass in 2004 Hewitt had 63 aces but 42 DFs, with a net of 21 free points.

Federer had 91 aces but only 24 DFs. Net of 67 free points.

Fed played 12 matches. Hewitt played 10 matches. Hewitt's return on grass went straight to hell in 2004, while Fed's was through the roof.

You can get a rough idea about free points by dividing matches played by games played.

In 2004 Federer played 154 games on grass. Hewitt played 119.

 

[NatF]

You have to be very careful when you talk about aces without talking about DFs. On grass in 2004 Hewitt had 63 aces but 42 DFs, with a net of 21 free points.

Federer had 91 aces but only 24 DFs. Net of 67 free points.

Fed played 12 matches. Hewitt played 10 matches. Hewitt's return on grass went straight to hell in 2004, while Fed's was through the roof.

You can get a rough idea about free points by dividing matches played by games played.

In 2004 Federer played 154 games on grass. Hewitt played 119.

I was talking generally for 2004 not just on grass - sorry if I wasn't clear. And yes obviously doubles should be considered but mostly if you're linking Hewitt going for aces with his low first serve percentage. The point was not to say Hewitt had a serve as good as Federer's, just that his first serve was good when it went in

 

[Gary Duane]

I was talking generally for 2004 not just on grass - sorry if I wasn't clear. And yes obviously doubles should be considered but mostly if you're linking Hewitt going for aces with his low first serve percentage. The point was not to say Hewitt had a serve as good as Federer's, just that his first serve was good when it went in

I know. Just "slap" that serve.

Here are numbers:

Hewitt
(523-303) / 984=.22

Federer
(563-156) / 925=.44

Aces-DFs/ total number of games = average # of free points per game.

So even that year Fed was getting twice as many free points.

The best at this is Karlovic, who I believe is the only play ever to average more than one free point per game.

 

[tennisaddict]

LOL. This is fun.

I saw Becker show some form on grass last month, but then his back or something clipped him a bit and Zverev then destoryed him. Mayer is coming back from injury and looked great at Halle, but physical reality may be setting in as he did not have his way with Thiem a 2nd time. Haas, lol, next. Melzer plays Thiem 2nd round maybe this week.
30/2013 R16 Kitzbuhel Clay Dominic Thiem Jurgen Melzer 7-5 6-3 4.10 - 1.27

Jurgen just playing around in Austria, probably he and Muster comebacks due to delusions from having read TTW.

Mahut, Lopez, and Stepanek are the more serious ones:
1. Steps wants to break Connor's oldest match win ATP record, so three more years of serious tennis to come.

2. Lopez is a serve and volleyer who might do some damage with better serving, but endangered species on tour with his net game and in the era of Borgian passing shots he won't go much higher unless its a nice, hot fast summer.

3. Mahut is learning how to win in doubles and very Lopez like. French Davis Cup finally let the Mahut doubles team play and they clinched the tie. Frenchies almost went youth movement versus Czech's. Herbert in doubles and Pouille in singles notched their first wins.

Some entertaining players, but I don't think these examples will be defining the tour for years to come. Looking forward to the serious ones playing more and hope Florian Mayer is around to terrorize the youngsters next year on grass with his two-handed slice. (Slice is a form of spin, and look for more slicing like the good ole days.)

This is what happens when you don't take the veterans seriously.

Thieminator got straight setted in front of home crowd by oldie. Thiem has no excuse of tiredness since he flamed out early at Wimbledon.

 

[Meles]

This is what happens when you don't take the veterans seriously.

Thieminator got straight setted in front of home crowd by oldie. Thiem has no excuse of tiredness since he flamed out early at Wimbledon.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...stria-july-18-23-2016-thiem-vs-melzer.568973/

A nice match thread for those who wish to pile on more.

Melzer on the path for career high ranking.

 

[tennisaddict]

Paolo Lorenzi , at 34, reaches career high rank of 41.

GUess, who is ranked 40 , ahead of him by 5 points ? Young gun, Dmitrov..

 

[uliks]

Seems that everybody are reaching peak form and could stay at their peak at 30+ years, only Federer is old, past his prime and declined at 26.

 

[dr325i]

It is no longer an 'opinion'. Time to accept the truth. Facts are telling.

2005, USO Final, crippled 34-year Agassi pushes the guy with arguably hottest season to follow (2006) into a 4 set match.
2001, 30 year old, 125 ranked wins Wimbledon
And so on...
The age was and becoming even more irrelevant with todays conditioning

 

[Rafa the King]

These are signs of a weak era, the generation of 23-27 year olds who should all be in their peaks have failed so miserably that the generation before that 28-32 year olds are very much able to beat them. We now have to wait an extra generation for the 23-27 year olds to be at the top of their game again.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

2005, USO Final, crippled 34-year Agassi pushes the guy with arguably hottest season to follow (2006) into a 4 set match.
2001, 30 year old, 125 ranked wins Wimbledon
And so on...
The age was and becoming even more irrelevant with todays conditioning

Why are Ferrer's results declining, then? And why did Berdych get double-bagelled? Has the field just gotten so much better in a gew months, eh?

It's not the age itself as a number, but accumulated wear and tear, declined recovery etc.
Mid-level players improving at an old age suggests to me that they had not uncovered their full potential earlier (Wawrinka is the shining example, although he was known to be talented for a long time before that). I do not see any possibility for the absolute max ceiling to somehow get higher with aging, so players who maximised their level when they were at their physical best will not get better.

 

[tennisaddict]

Lorenzi became the oldest player to win his maiden ATP title at 34 yr 7 months

Guess who had the record ?

VIktor Burgos had it in 2014 at 34 yr 6 months.

Glad Kyrgios and Dmitrov won their titles, else would have looked bad, though Zverev, Kokki, Fritz, Ymer all don't have it still

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

These are signs of a weak era, the generation of 23-27 year olds who should all be in their peaks have failed so miserably that the generation before that 28-32 year olds are very much able to beat them. We now have to wait an extra generation for the 23-27 year olds to be at the top of their game again.

I don't like the weak era barrage, but Simon losing three times to Zverev this year gives some credence to it, to be honest, and he doesn't appear to be particularly declining - at any rate he's still in top 20 and will likely remain there, since he has no good results to defend for the rest of the year except for Metz F. So it does look like Zverev is just an inherently better player, even though he's only 19 yet.

 

[dr325i]

Why are Ferrer's results declining, then? And why did Berdych get double-bagelled? Has the field just gotten so much better in a gew months, eh?

It's not the age itself as a number, but accumulated wear and tear, declined recovery etc.
Mid-level players improving at an old age suggests to me that they had not uncovered their full potential earlier (Wawrinka is the shining example, although he was known to be talented for a long time before that). I do not see any possibility for the absolute max ceiling to somehow get higher with aging, so players who maximised their level when they were at their physical best will not get better.

Berdych double bagel ABSOLUTELY has nothing to do with the age or injury or his level of play. The guy dumped his coach the very same day he lost the match. That tells you something?
Karlovic is 37 or something and plays better than ever.
Federer can probably go on till he is 40, not Rafa.
Ferrer, on the other hand, indeed, is a good example to support your side of the story.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Berdych double bagel ABSOLUTELY has nothing to do with the age or injury or his level of play. The guy dumped his coach the very same day he lost the match. That tells you something?

He had an off-day - okay, a very bad off-day - still never before had he allowed himself to be in such disarray as to get double-bagelled. That spells decline (not necessarily age-related, yes). Gaudio got double-bagelled by Federer in a terrible match (2005 TMC SF) and quickly spiralled into decline soon afterwards. Berdych isn't that fragile and will not disappear, but I'm certain he isn't reaching the previous heights unless the draw falls his way, as it happened this Wimbledon.

Karlovic is 37 or something and plays better than ever.

Karlovic is the best servebot ever, so he will remain dangerous for as long as he has that unreal serve, and since serve is the least age-affected shot, he may go on forever as long as he is healthy. This is not a good example because Karlovic's way is unique. He doesn't just have a great serve - he has the best serve ever, which is a power in itself.

Federer can probably go on till he is 40, not Rafa.

Provided he remains in good health, yes. As I said, it's not the age itself...

Ferrer, on the other hand, indeed, is a good example to support your side of the story.

That's what happens. The reserves are running dry, and physical and mental reflexes deteriorate.

Federer has a much more vast pool to draw from than almost anyone else, but also the heights reached by him during his heyday are matched by few. He cannot play as great, day in day out, as he did then. Due to his immense talent and dedication, he can still be one of the best players, health permitting. I daresay any ATG has (had) the potential for longevity, but some got too bad injuries, while some were not mentally up to it. Federer's dedication is an extremely important factor, I think. It is enough to let go just a bit, and your performance in key moments will quickly fall. He is still relevant because, to this day, he genuinely enjoys playing, with his heart and mind. Federer seems even a little obsessed with maintaining his tennis life, somewhat like Connors. I think that will decide whether Djokovic can match Federer's longevity - I don't think Djokovic loves tennis (and himself in tennis) that much. He has a lot of other interests, which he appears to be genuinely passionate about. That may be healthier actually, though, for him as a human being. Supposing he doesn't beat records (we know which ones, right? in the next few years, it would probably be silly to obsessively chase them well into his 30s, lol. (And if he does, no-one's threatening him in a long time, so no need to defend desperately. What do you think?

 

[Noleberic123]

This weak era meme just won't die, will it?
So 2015. People have moved on. Come on trolls, come up with something new.

Feddy was an absolute beast in those years, especially in slams. End of discussion right there.

Nice username tho

Hopefully in 2025 people still don't talk about Novaks so called Weak era

 

[Smasher08]

Pablo reached a career high ranking of 20. He is 30.5 years old , turned pro in 2004 when he was 18 years.

Did not win a single title till age 28 and has now won 5 titles from 2014.

This weekend was also good for the oldie Karlovic, at 37 years, 4 months, becomes the oldest ATP World Tour singles champion since Marty Riessen (37 years, 9 months) in 1979 (Lafayette, La.). Karlovic has won 3 of his 7 titles in the last 3 years.

Muller, the finalist, was 33 himself. Together the combined age of 70 was a record by itself.

Hats off to Cuevas -- a very under-rated clay guy who always had the tools but hadn't quite put it all together.

 

[tennisaddict]

Feliciano Lopez back in top 20 with a title this week
He is 34 years now And ranked 18.

 

[Fedinkum]

All under 25yrs old players are busy capturing Pikachu...

 

[Chicharito]

Stéphane Robert AGED 36!

Into the SFs in Moscow, might break the top 50 for the first time depending on other players results (projected 48 today). Career high rank of 51 regardless at aged 36!

 

[nadalfan2013]

Things are looking good for Rafa in 2017. I'm loving this new trend.