The "Fun" of Self Rating

kingcheetah · Aug 16, 2016

I'm getting ready to play my first USTA season after doing a few open tournaments and finishing a d3 college career, and yet even though I initially self rated and was given 5.0, and appealed it down to 4.5 a year or so ago, I seemingly have to do it again. I found this out yesterday when I tried to register for the league and was required to self rate again, once again being automatically set at 5.0 because I have d3 experience. Our first match is supposed to be this Thursday, so I'm frantically emailing the section folks trying to see what the options are-- I haven't been required to self rate all season because I was in open events. I wish USTA would integrate with UTR so that I could avoid this step.

kevrol · Aug 16, 2016

Guessing you let your USTA membership lapse and thus it made you self-rate again.

Deleted member 23235 · Aug 16, 2016

Did you appeal it down to 4.5S, then play usta league matches (i don't open tourneys affect rating)?

NumbersGuy · Aug 16, 2016

Simple process. Self-rate 5.0 as required, then file a self-rate appeal which your Section NTRP Coordinator will likely grant. Not uncommon.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Aug 16, 2016

Have you tried finding some 4.5C and 5.0C players to hit against to get a feel for the level? Maybe you fit right into 4.5, maybe 5.0.

Moveforwardalways · Aug 16, 2016

How good of a D3 program? You could be anywhere from 4.0 to 5.0.

mikeler · Aug 16, 2016

D3 is not 5.0, appeal should never be needed right? Did the NTRP rating signup change?

Whatever you do, just play at the NTRP you belong at. Strong competition rewards all, win or lose.

QuadCam · Aug 16, 2016

mikeler said:
D3 is not 5.0, appeal should never be needed right? Did the NTRP rating signup change?

Whatever you do, just play at the NTRP you belong at. Strong competition rewards all, win or lose.

Up to age 26, you are at a minimum reading of 5.0 if you played any d3 college tennis. It's in the rule book.

Moveforwardalways · Aug 17, 2016

A minimum rating of 5.0 for any college tennis (D3 is the lowest division), really limits participation by former college players, since 5.0 leagues are not all that common. While it is certainly not appropriate for guys who played at schools like UCLA or Stanford to show up in your local 4.5 league, is there a better way to do this? I mean, D3 should be able to rate at 4.5 in my opinion.

QuadCam · Aug 17, 2016

I agree. One of my friends finally turned 26 this year and he was able to rate at the 4.5 level..,.. which is his correct level. He played at a small d3 school all throughout his college years. Up until this year, there was no league for him to play in.

QuadCam · Aug 17, 2016

Conversely, i know of a guy who played a year or 2 at the d3 level. He ended up playing usta adult league when he was in his mid 20s. At that time, his local pro told him to join the usta team, etc. He self rated as a 4.0. he was a legit strong 4.0. played the season.... Results confirmed his 4.0 ranking..,. And he earned a computer rated 4.0 ranking. A couple years later, it came up that he had played college tennis ( and at his age should have had a minimum of 4.5 rating) but the USTA was fine with keeping him at his 4.0 rating because he was computer rated.

Go figure.....

kingcheetah · Aug 17, 2016

So update:
1) I know the appeals process-- it's just a pain because I had kept my USTA membership continual for tournaments, but hadn't played any NTRP tournaments so I didn't get a computer ranking, and I assumed since I had appealed before and been successful, the NTRP would still be there 2 years later... as that's what popped up on the site. Instead it made me self rate again, and I couldn't lie on there and say I'd only played HS and then appeal up, because if anyone questioned anything (unlikely, but you never know) I'd be screwed with the USTA.
2) We weren't ranked, in a decent conference (MIAC) but not world beaters. Most of our team is 8-10 UTR, which aligns with 4.5.
3) I was hesitant to appeal at all a couple of years ago, but a strong 4.5 recently beat me pretty solidly, so I don't have any doubts that I'm a good fit for competitive matches at that level.

So assuming the appeal gets granted, it's just a matter of getting league results in there and getting a computer rating. If it gets denied, I'm in a more interesting situation as I'll still be looking for 5.0/open tournaments to play in, and have to get enough in by the end of the calendar year to get a computer rating.

Nacho · Aug 17, 2016

You just a appeal....I had to do it here because there are no 5.0 teams to play on....But it doesn't matter as the thrill of playing in the leagues has worn off, its more of a pain then its worth

Deleted member 23235 · Aug 17, 2016

kingcheetah said:
I couldn't lie on there and say I'd only played HS and then appeal up, because if anyone questioned anything (unlikely, but you never know) I'd be screwed with the USTA.

self rate as low as you'd want to play...
"screwed with the USTA" == you get bumped up
Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission...
<flame on to all you sand bagging police weenies

>

kingcheetah · Aug 17, 2016

Nacho said:
You just a appeal....I had to do it here because there are no 5.0 teams to play on....But it doesn't matter as the thrill of playing in the leagues has worn off, its more of a pain then its worth

That's the other issue, I have other options and limited time-- 17 credits this semester for my MAT, the 4.5 singles league seems like a good option as those guys have been nice to be around, 3.5/4.0/4.5 combo league I only got offered a sub spot due to "an abundance of 4.5s" (I call bull on that one.) I might just stick to playing with the high level juniors, playing tournaments and maybe helping coach my old HS team in the spring. I also still have a bunch of college club volleyball eligibility left, so I might use that... so if leagues become too difficult/dramatic I'll find something enjoyable

Deleted member 23235 · Aug 17, 2016

kingcheetah said:
"an abundance of 4.5s" (I call bull on that one.)

Around me it's true....alot of 4.5's, for too few tri-level combo leagues teams.
But that said, it probably means there are better 4.5's that the capt would prefer to play.

Nacho · Aug 17, 2016

kingcheetah said:
That's the other issue, I have other options and limited time-- 17 credits this semester for my MAT, the 4.5 singles league seems like a good option as those guys have been nice to be around, 3.5/4.0/4.5 combo league I only got offered a sub spot due to "an abundance of 4.5s" (I call bull on that one.) I might just stick to playing with the high level juniors, playing tournaments and maybe helping coach my old HS team in the spring. I also still have a bunch of college club volleyball eligibility left, so I might use that... so if leagues become too difficult/dramatic I'll find something enjoyable

I know the feeling, working on my MFA right now so weekends have become study time and getting out at 8p on Sunday to play a 45 minute singles match no ad isn't very motivating....I really liked the leagues at first because I had just moved to the city and didn't know anyone. I probably just haven't been on very exciting teams recently. I think they're fun when they are social and you can have a few beers afterward....But just to play, I sub, but mostly pass these days. I have to find other ways to play and compete

kingcheetah · Aug 17, 2016

nytennisaddict said:
Around me it's true....alot of 4.5's, for too few tri-level combo leagues teams.
But that said, it probably means there are better 4.5's that the capt would prefer to play.

I think it's more likely that the "social" players won out-- members were polled whether to put teams together with friends or based on decisions by the teaching pros. I haven't played much with the adults, hence not having the connections to be on their radar for a social team, but doubles wise I like my chances against any of them.

Moveforwardalways · Aug 17, 2016

nytennisaddict said:
self rate as low as you'd want to play...
"screwed with the USTA" == you get bumped up
Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission...
<flame on to all you sand bagging police weenies >

Agree. Make a new USTA profile under a slightly different name, don't mention the college tennis, and rate where you want to play. If you are too good for that level, you will soon move up. No big deal.

kingcheetah · Aug 17, 2016

Moveforwardalways said:
Agree. Make a new USTA profile under a slightly different name, don't mention the college tennis, and rate where you want to play. If you are too good for that level, you will soon move up. No big deal.

I'd do that if I weren't already paying for the membership-- which I re-upped in May, and my NTRP was fine then, didn't have to self rate or anything for the open tourneys, then I try to register for a league and all of a sudden the site makes me re-do and appeal again.

schmke · Aug 17, 2016

QuadCam said:
Conversely, i know of a guy who played a year or 2 at the d3 level. He ended up playing usta adult league when he was in his mid 20s. At that time, his local pro told him to join the usta team, etc. He self rated as a 4.0. he was a legit strong 4.0. played the season.... Results confirmed his 4.0 ranking..,. And he earned a computer rated 4.0 ranking. A couple years later, it came up that he had played college tennis ( and at his age should have had a minimum of 4.5 rating) but the USTA was fine with keeping him at his 4.0 rating because he was computer rated.

Go figure.....

I think this is typical, but I have heard of cases where a player with a C rating was DQ'd/promoted due to improper self-rating. In the cases I've seen, the player self-rated way too low and was bumped up at year-end whereas in the case you cite their record did not indicate a bump up and it sounds like several years of history were present which were likely factors in leaving him be.

See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/07/when-is-usta-ntrp-computer-c-rating-not.html and http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/07/another-scenario-where-computer-c-rated.html where I wrote about a few cases I've heard of.

mikeler · Aug 17, 2016

QuadCam said:
Up to age 26, you are at a minimum reading of 5.0 if you played any d3 college tennis. It's in the rule book.

Thanks, I have not looked at the requirements in awhile.

beernutz · Aug 17, 2016

mikeler said:
Thanks, I have not looked at the requirements in awhile.

For your viewing pleasure: http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ExperiencedGuidelines_02142011_V2pdf.pdf

kingcheetah · Aug 18, 2016

Moveforwardalways said:
Agree. Make a new USTA profile under a slightly different name, don't mention the college tennis, and rate where you want to play. If you are too good for that level, you will soon move up. No big deal.

Not worth the cash for one USTA league match, nor the potential one year ban from league if they catch me doing it.

Moveforwardalways · Aug 18, 2016

kingcheetah said:
Not worth the cash for one USTA league match, nor the potential one year ban from league if they catch me doing it.

How would they catch you? This is extremely common in my area. Half the guys registered on teams have slight variations on the spelling of their names, capital letters in weird places, middle names, nicknames, etc, all to get different USTA accounts. It's not uncommon by any means.

OrangePower · Aug 18, 2016

Moveforwardalways said:
How would they catch you? This is extremely common in my area. Half the guys registered on teams have slight variations on the spelling of their names, capital letters in weird places, middle names, nicknames, etc, all to get different USTA accounts. It's not uncommon by any means.

?

If you are aware of players who have multiple USTA accounts, presumably so are many others?
And presumably then it's just a matter of time until some disgruntled captain files a grievance?

I can't see how they would *not* catch you.

Moveforwardalways · Aug 18, 2016

OrangePower said:
?

If you are aware of players who have multiple USTA accounts, presumably so are many others?
And presumably then it's just a matter of time until some disgruntled captain files a grievance?

I can't see how they would *not* catch you.

Then just sign up again. There is no real way to combat this.

Nacho · Aug 18, 2016

schmke said:
I think this is typical, but I have heard of cases where a player with a C rating was DQ'd/promoted due to improper self-rating. In the cases I've seen, the player self-rated way too low and was bumped up at year-end whereas in the case you cite their record did not indicate a bump up and it sounds like several years of history were present which were likely factors in leaving him be.

See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/07/when-is-usta-ntrp-computer-c-rating-not.html and http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/07/another-scenario-where-computer-c-rated.html where I wrote about a few cases I've heard of.

I have a question, opinion based, for you. Do you think that the NTRP system is skewed by people under-rating themselves? So in other words, because there is an overabundance of 3.0-4.0 leagues, people who are 5.0 and 5.5 rate themselves into the 4.5 and 4.0 levels to play casually on a team? Thus, when everyone who is 5.0 is rating themselves as 4.0, they suddenly become the 4.0's and then 4.0 is the new 5.0? In my area there are only 2 5.0 teams, no 5.5, and few 4.5....everything is 4.0 so players who would be 4.5 or 5.0 are in the 4.0, and there is enough of them cannibalising each other that they become the new norm for 4.0?

OrangePower · Aug 18, 2016

Moveforwardalways said:
Then just sign up again. There is no real way to combat this.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Probably I am, because I must be missing something.
So let's say someone signs up under a slightly different name, and starts playing at a level lower than the original name.
With the new sign up, this person ponies up another USTA membership fee.
A couple months later some captain files a grievance, USTA determines that the player is cheating by having a duplicate membership with a lower rating, overturns the players results, and bans the player (both USTA memberships) for a year or whatever.
So you're suggesting the player can just sign up again, using yet another name variation.
Which is correct, but now the player needs to pay USTA membership yet again, and then again the likely outcome is that he gets found out, results overturned, and membership suspended.
So yeah this can go on forever, but each time it's another $50 or whatever membership is these days, and then a few months of playing before being found out, banned again, and results overturned.
Seems kinda pointless?
Unless I'm missing something?

Moveforwardalways · Aug 18, 2016

OrangePower said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Probably I am, because I must be missing something.
So let's say someone signs up under a slightly different name, and starts playing at a level lower than the original name.
With the new sign up, this person ponies up another USTA membership fee.
A couple months later some captain files a grievance, USTA determines that the player is cheating by having a duplicate membership with a lower rating, overturns the players results, and bans the player (both USTA memberships) for a year or whatever.
So you're suggesting the player can just sign up again, using yet another name variation.
Which is correct, but now the player needs to pay USTA membership yet again, and then again the likely outcome is that he gets found out, results overturned, and membership suspended.
So yeah this can go on forever, but each time it's another $50 or whatever membership is these days, and then a few months of playing before being found out, banned again, and results overturned.
Seems kinda pointless?
Unless I'm missing something?

Membership is like $30. Cheaper than a string job. Don't see the impediment there.

If you are in a large city, no one will know the wiser. But yeah, I guess if you are in a small town with only one league, you will get busted.

NumbersGuy · Aug 19, 2016

When people do such things they win, they go to playoffs, to Sectionals, etc. That gets you noticed, and it doesn't take other competitive captains long to figure out (or to be told by little birdies) who you are. It has happened often enough in my city (in the top 5 in the U.S. in population) that people just don't try it much anymore. Upper-end-of-any-rating-level League tennis is a smaller world than you may realize.

Startzel · Aug 19, 2016

Nacho said:
I have a question, opinion based, for you. Do you think that the NTRP system is skewed by people under-rating themselves? So in other words, because there is an overabundance of 3.0-4.0 leagues, people who are 5.0 and 5.5 rate themselves into the 4.5 and 4.0 levels to play casually on a team? Thus, when everyone who is 5.0 is rating themselves as 4.0, they suddenly become the 4.0's and then 4.0 is the new 5.0? In my area there are only 2 5.0 teams, no 5.5, and few 4.5....everything is 4.0 so players who would be 4.5 or 5.0 are in the 4.0, and there is enough of them cannibalising each other that they become the new norm for 4.0?

I don't want to speak for schmke but I think he has more faith in the system that I do.

I think you're right. I play in a small local area so it's largely the same people playing each other and we have one club that dominates the local league through cheating. They just make up scores when playing each other and the league coordinator always comes through their club.

They've really depressed the ratings by constantly playing down. I went to sectionals for the first time this year and I expected to play players a level higher than our ratings. But none of the guys I played would even be able to compete at the next level in my local league.

I would think players that make it past districts and into sectionals should be able to compete at the next level up.

schmke · Aug 19, 2016

Nacho said:
I have a question, opinion based, for you. Do you think that the NTRP system is skewed by people under-rating themselves? So in other words, because there is an overabundance of 3.0-4.0 leagues, people who are 5.0 and 5.5 rate themselves into the 4.5 and 4.0 levels to play casually on a team? Thus, when everyone who is 5.0 is rating themselves as 4.0, they suddenly become the 4.0's and then 4.0 is the new 5.0? In my area there are only 2 5.0 teams, no 5.5, and few 4.5....everything is 4.0 so players who would be 4.5 or 5.0 are in the 4.0, and there is enough of them cannibalising each other that they become the new norm for 4.0?

There may be a slight skewing as a result of this for the reasons you describe. There is also a slight skewing as a result of plus leagues IMHO, as you end up with 5.0s and 5.5s playing 4.0s and 4.5s at times (see http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/06/how-usta-is-inadvertently-bumping-50.html).

Perhaps as a result of this potential skewing, the USTA does periodically make mass adjustments/bump ups to rebalance the levels or try to make corrections to make the levels consistent across sections. I believe one was done in 2010 and then again at 2014 year-end (see http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/12/2014-usta-league-year-end-bump_3.html).

schmke · Aug 19, 2016

Startzel said:
I don't want to speak for schmke but I think he has more faith in the system that I do.

I have a fair amount of trust in the algorithm itself, I believe it works when matches are played fairly. But the algorithm can be manipulated by players throwing matches and if league coordinators are complicit or unwilling to crack down on cheating, the algorithm can only do its part. It is the darn humans that mess the system up

Nacho · Aug 19, 2016

schmke said:
There may be a slight skewing as a result of this for the reasons you describe. There is also a slight skewing as a result of plus leagues IMHO, as you end up with 5.0s and 5.5s playing 4.0s and 4.5s at times (see http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/06/how-usta-is-inadvertently-bumping-50.html).

Perhaps as a result of this potential skewing, the USTA does periodically make mass adjustments/bump ups to rebalance the levels or try to make corrections to make the levels consistent across sections. I believe one was done in 2010 and then again at 2014 year-end (see http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2014/12/2014-usta-league-year-end-bump_3.html).

Cool, I was curious, thanks for answering....I have seen players I thought were 5.0 playing 4.5 and even 4.0, and there are plenty of them that they beat each other enough to make it seem they are in 4.5 or 4.0....All because there are no league teams. Are the tournament performances not attributed to NTRP? Is it just leagues?

schmke · Aug 19, 2016

Nacho said:
Cool, I was curious, thanks for answering....I have seen players I thought were 5.0 playing 4.5 and even 4.0, and there are plenty of them that they beat each other enough to make it seem they are in 4.5 or 4.0....All because there are no league teams. Are the tournament performances not attributed to NTRP? Is it just leagues?

It depends on the section. Some include tournaments in year-end NTRP ratings, some don't. If someone plays only tournaments they will get a "T" rating but that just influences the level they can self-rate at when they go to join a team for league play, it doesn't actually give them a starting rating for league play. See Q40 on my FAQ (http://computerratings.blogspot.com/p/usta-ntrp-faq.html)

Nacho · Aug 19, 2016

Startzel said:
I don't want to speak for schmke but I think he has more faith in the system that I do.

I think you're right. I play in a small local area so it's largely the same people playing each other and we have one club that dominates the local league through cheating. They just make up scores when playing each other and the league coordinator always comes through their club.

They've really depressed the ratings by constantly playing down. I went to sectionals for the first time this year and I expected to play players a level higher than our ratings. But none of the guys I played would even be able to compete at the next level in my local league.

I would think players that make it past districts and into sectionals should be able to compete at the next level up.

Admittedly I self rated at 5.0....then protested so I could get on a 4.5 team as thats the highest I could join, and found myself losing to some guys that were also clearly 5.0. I found out one of them had been rated 4.0, and had bumped up to 4.5, but was a teaching pro and had played top level at a D-II school a year or two before. Another loss was the same thing, a local D-III coach who had just graduated from the team. I begin thinking we were all beating each other, so we were the new 4.5. I tried a flex league a year ago at 4.5, and it was all people clearly either 4.0, or I was 5.0. I won every match but one easily, so there just seemed to be a huge discrepancy in this. I think it can be a good system, but just needs some fine tuning.

Nacho · Aug 19, 2016

schmke said:
It depends on the section. Some include tournaments in year-end NTRP ratings, some don't. If someone plays only tournaments they will get a "T" rating but that just influences the level they can self-rate at when they go to join a team for league play, it doesn't actually give them a starting rating for league play. See Q40 on my FAQ (http://computerratings.blogspot.com/p/usta-ntrp-faq.html)

I see....So if I were to play an NTRP rated tournament, it would go into the rating? But if I just played an open tournament, it wouldn't? Or its just sectional? I will look at your blog, thanks for the info

tennis tom · Aug 19, 2016

WOW, time for me to lawyer-up, I'm going down to 16th & Mish and getting a new birth certificate--I'm gonna' clean-up next year in the 95's--I'm going world. Got a call into Ballco too, could use something extra in the stamina department--some of those old geezers still s & v--maybe I'll slip something into their Geritol while they're in the can changing their Depends. It's been a long time since I've played leagues, gotta' quit smoking this pot-****, a nice cold beer sounds better after a fun match.

Startzel · Aug 19, 2016

schmke said:
I have a fair amount of trust in the algorithm itself, I believe it works when matches are played fairly. But the algorithm can be manipulated by players throwing matches and if league coordinators are complicit or unwilling to crack down on cheating, the algorithm can only do its part. It is the darn humans that mess the system up

True. That is an important distinction

kingcheetah · Aug 20, 2016

So I played the match and we all agreed to post the results once I get my situation resolved. Won 6-7, 6-3, 10-6. I at one point had a 5-2 lead in the first, had a bad lapse, but outside of that was pretty in control of the match.

Side note, apparently our team's best 4.5 is a guy who self rated at 4.0 last year and got DQed

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