Those are the second serves.
Average serve speed of "in" serves by level...
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stapletonj
Hall of Fame
the question was AVERAGE serve speeds. much lower than our one out of ten, wow did you see that one, practice serve.
at the rec level, better players know they are not goign to win very many points at all trying to over power the receiver on the serve.
all they need or want to do is have plenty of consistency, and enough pace to keep the receiver from being able to "tee off" on it
(and that last part is important!). But the best way to win a point with your serve is placement and spin.
A serve that is to the receivers backhand, that has some topspin and even a little sidespin is far more likely to win you the point
without even having to strike the ball again than an attempt to blast a flat monster past them.
Sure the fat monster serve might get the courtside honeys ooohing and ahhhing, (or perhaps that's why many guys really play?, deep down?.... nahh)
But holding up the trophy or at least getting to the next round feels better in the long run.
at the rec level, better players know they are not goign to win very many points at all trying to over power the receiver on the serve.
all they need or want to do is have plenty of consistency, and enough pace to keep the receiver from being able to "tee off" on it
(and that last part is important!). But the best way to win a point with your serve is placement and spin.
A serve that is to the receivers backhand, that has some topspin and even a little sidespin is far more likely to win you the point
without even having to strike the ball again than an attempt to blast a flat monster past them.
Sure the fat monster serve might get the courtside honeys ooohing and ahhhing, (or perhaps that's why many guys really play?, deep down?.... nahh)
But holding up the trophy or at least getting to the next round feels better in the long run.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
Unfortunately I don't. But it looks something like this. Notice how far forward the front foot lands compared to those two 4.5 players. Of course you can't get any power jumping straight up and down with your front foot landing behind the baseline. It looks like they never learned how to serve.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think he issue is not that 1st serve speeds alter much from 3.0-4.0. It's just consistency and placement that changes. I've played lots of 3.0's, 3.5's and 4.0's the last few years and the first serve speed is near identical. It's just the 3.0's never get it in. The 3.5's get it in but always to the same spot. The 4.0's get it in more frequently and varied locations. At 4.5 the speed starts to ramp up as more spin is added to get a faster ball down into the service box. The 5.0's have a solid mix of pace and placement and they frequently ace me or get winners with second serves.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
gonna pose a different angle...
the average IN serve speed is probably higher, the LOWER in NTRP you are.
ie. the athletic 3.0 with frying pan serve, can probably blast 100+... but it never goes in (maybe 5%), and we're only counting when it does go in...
meanwhile the average 4.5 knows that placement and % are more important than raw speed, so they tend to hit say a 80mph heavy spin (3.0-low4.0 don't have technique to hit spin regularly) serve into the corners (which goes in say 65% of the time), and maybe intentionally hit a "slow ball" (ie. maybe a kicker) as a first serve changeup... so the avg of IN serves is like 75mph
(ie. like when roddick dropped his avg first serve speed from 150 to 130, to add more spin)
discuss!
the average IN serve speed is probably higher, the LOWER in NTRP you are.
ie. the athletic 3.0 with frying pan serve, can probably blast 100+... but it never goes in (maybe 5%), and we're only counting when it does go in...
meanwhile the average 4.5 knows that placement and % are more important than raw speed, so they tend to hit say a 80mph heavy spin (3.0-low4.0 don't have technique to hit spin regularly) serve into the corners (which goes in say 65% of the time), and maybe intentionally hit a "slow ball" (ie. maybe a kicker) as a first serve changeup... so the avg of IN serves is like 75mph
(ie. like when roddick dropped his avg first serve speed from 150 to 130, to add more spin)
discuss!
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Nashvegas
Guest
Good point. Isner as we speak is hitting first serves under 120 and kicking them wide to devastating effect.
You almost have to throw out the 3.0 frying panners. Poor analogy, but it's like analyzing average shooting range for basketball players, where beginners only take 30-foot shots because they get their shots blocked otherwise. If you only average their made baskets they appear to have great range.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Think that's kinda what I said a post higher but less eloquently.
I rarely can tell the difference between a 3.0 and a 4.0 by how hard they hit their first serve. I can tell by a) how often they hit their first serve in and b) by where that first serve goes. Consistency and placement trump speed as you can only hit a flat serve so fast before it sails long and virtually all males can hit that speed pretty easily. The 100 mph + serves have to be hit with some topspin and that requires higher level technique than what you'll see from intermediates.
OrangePower
Legend
Interesting observation.
So perhaps a better metric would be, if out serves are counted as 0mph, what is the average 1st serve speed per level?
For example, if a typical 4.5 serves 1st serve at 80mph and gets 50% in, then the 'average' across all attempted 1st serves would be 40mph.
What would be the number for other levels?
That would be an interesting stat to figure out.
eelhc
Hall of Fame
LOL.. I know many guys who routinely hit 100MPH serves...... out. None of them understand the concept that there is no such thing as a true flat serve. The ball has to be struck something like 13ft high to zip to the very far corner. So they think they can actually hit their frying pan serve flat and in the box. As a result, the "good" serves are actually a timing accident.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Can you record a video your serve? If you have a somewhat recent mobile phone, it can probably record 240fps or higher.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
I'm not recording and posting a video of my serve just because some triggered poster on TT desperately wants my serve to be worse than I say it is. If it makes you feel better, just assume it is.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Haha. I'm not "triggered". Was just curious to see, but I understand why some people may be hesitant to post video of them playing tennis because there are some posters that are very critical of every video they see and a bit harsh in their criticisms.
A lot of people try to copy a pro serve or stroke and sometimes it helps.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i think this comment supports my theory that lower NTRP == higher serve speed
those guys in the vid are really spinning the ball in well (though tank top guy is serving bigger, it's still a heavily sliced serve), taking alot from it's pace, but improving consistency and placement.
@WhiskeyEE do you serve flat or spin your first serve in?
but @WhiskeyEE is right about the strength/athleticism - can't train your way into throwing a 90mph fastball (or serving a 150mph serve)... either you have the genetics or you don't.
navigator
Hall of Fame
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
A few points:
(1) Few posters who have boasted about some aspect of their game have ever been able to back it up with proof. Happens occasionally but it's rare. There's a lot of BS that floats around here, so in the absence of proof... you're just another dude in front of a keyboard. Which you're ok with, so that's good.
(2) I don't think folks want your serve to be worse than you say it is. But they're keenly aware of (1) above. If you were to post it and it's the felonious chupacabra you claim it to be, a lot of folks who will note it as so. So, perhaps you're projecting a bit here.
(3) People here love to see video of other posters playing, not so much because they want to be critical (although sometimes that's the case) but rather they like to put a game/face with the otherwise anonymous poster. It's really just curiosity for the most part as far as I can tell.
Anyhow, I think you have the right attitude that you don't care what the posters think, and they'll continue to not believe you, which you're ok with. So, it's all good.
It does beg a question though... Why bother posting any claim that you're not going to back up? It's not going to be believed, so... it's completely pointless, really. But, hey, to each their own.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
The reason I was critical of the servers in that video is because I think the OP is demonstrating his own insecurity with this thread. He doesn't want to believe that other rec players can serve hard because he can't. Truth is, I have spent a lot of time practising my serve. Countess hours until I was happy with it.
Many people who have seen me practising my serve have asked me if I'm pro. I don't actually serve like a pro, but, since very few rec players ever learn how to serve properly (or have the physical ability to for that matter), my serve really stands out.
I'm also critical of players with relatively poor serves because I assume they have been too lazy to develop the shot properly. Those 4.5 players are making fundamental mistakes that can be corrected with a fuzzy yellow balls tutorial.
i think this comment supports my theory that lower NTRP == higher serve speed
those guys in the vid are really spinning the ball in well (though tank top guy is serving bigger, it's still a heavily sliced serve), taking alot from it's pace, but improving consistency and placement.
@WhiskeyEE do you serve flat or spin your first serve in?
but @WhiskeyEE is right about the strength/athleticism - can't train your way into throwing a 90mph fastball (or serving a 150mph serve)... either you have the genetics or you don't.
Fairly flat, but there is naturally quite a bit of topspin since I toss somewhere between my head and shoulder. If I toss it far enough to the right to hit a knuckle ball serve with no spin, I can't land it in.
Like I said, I was more responding to the obvious insecurity of the OP. I put a lot of time into developing my serve and I know that other rec players have relatively poor serves (compared to the rest of their game) because it's the toughest stroke to learn and they don't put any time into learning it. Some coaches are even too overweight to serve properly (don't really get off the ground). It's ridiculous.
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onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
btw, I don't consider 100mph to be some magical, unattainable speed. At the junior program I played in as a teen, one day the head pro brought a radar run to the group workout. I think out of 25-30 kids and a couple instructors about 6 or 7 hit about 100 and got it in. just a a couple attempts each. The level ranged from kids who only played in weekly clases and on their high school team to tournament playing kids to high school state champ. I hit it around 103-105 and was 5'3" or so at the time.
I have noticed, though, that kids who didn't grow up learning a throwing motion struggled to get as much velocity unless they used a super pancake-style all or nothing flat serve technique. The state champ kid hit it about 115 but he could hit that velocity with consistency and placement.
A bodybuilder who doesn't play tennis at all also tried it and he pancaked a serve in at 100mph.
I have noticed, though, that kids who didn't grow up learning a throwing motion struggled to get as much velocity unless they used a super pancake-style all or nothing flat serve technique. The state champ kid hit it about 115 but he could hit that velocity with consistency and placement.
A bodybuilder who doesn't play tennis at all also tried it and he pancaked a serve in at 100mph.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
At the 2014 US Open...
Serena Williams average serve speed - 108 mph
Richard Gasquet average serve speed 104 mph
Kei Nishikori average serve speed - 108 mph
I guess these players would probably struggle to hold serve in some of the 4.0 and 4.5 leagues that the people in this thread play in. It's brutal out there. Would love to see all these 4.0s that can out serve Gasquet. Lol.
There are plenty of ATP pros who average in the low 100s. This makes me quite skeptical of these local USTA after work players who all supposedly also post an average similar to the ATP tour.
Serena Williams average serve speed - 108 mph
Richard Gasquet average serve speed 104 mph
Kei Nishikori average serve speed - 108 mph
I guess these players would probably struggle to hold serve in some of the 4.0 and 4.5 leagues that the people in this thread play in. It's brutal out there. Would love to see all these 4.0s that can out serve Gasquet. Lol.
There are plenty of ATP pros who average in the low 100s. This makes me quite skeptical of these local USTA after work players who all supposedly also post an average similar to the ATP tour.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
This is ttw, if you type it,... it must be true.
Honestly, folks talk about first serve speed, like guys talk about their 1rep bench press max...
Doesn't matter if the serve never goes it, it's all about that one time. Good for water cooler talk after the match (especially if you lost)
I've been "gunned" at 106 before (in my 20's?), but who cares, it never goes in
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Exactly this. I play with Jr's and high school players and the majority serve around 70mph and a good number in the 80mph range. Many of the tops boys or young men serve 90's, with the top players hitting 100. I have a radar gun and we have all kinds of fun with it. We broke it out for the juniors team tennis finals and average for boys and girls was around 70mph. Top player hit 110mph, but was hitting 100's consistently. Mind you, this is gunned behind them and some will argue velocity loss, etc.
That said, since coming back to tennis I went with the 3.5 team and I'd guestimate most guys are mid 60's average with our top guys around high 70's on first serves.
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Nashvegas
Guest
Many more people could hit 100 mph with accuracy if they worked on it. It isn't about muscling up. You have a ton of leverage to utilize if you have good form and stay loose. It's about letting the racket build momentum more than it's about strength and effort.
Some people minimize double faults by taking off pace and settling into a motion that doesn't vary much between 1st and 2nd serves. Makes consistency easier without having to practice much, but also leads to a conclusion that 100 mph is a speed reserved for the pros. Well, if you don't practice it, then it certainly is.
Some people minimize double faults by taking off pace and settling into a motion that doesn't vary much between 1st and 2nd serves. Makes consistency easier without having to practice much, but also leads to a conclusion that 100 mph is a speed reserved for the pros. Well, if you don't practice it, then it certainly is.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
It depends on your skill level. In the beginning, I could hit harder if I consciously tried to stay loose. Now, that isn't the case. What loosening up does is encourages you to begin the motion with the legs and end with the arm. Not to mention letting the elbow joint flex and engaging the triceps. Many people who try max effort serves use primarily the shoulder joint. But, if you have the proper mechanics down, more effort will give you more pace.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think a 100 mph "average" serve is a myth in rec leagues. At least below the 4.5 level. I've been playing in a club with over 1000 playing members for the last 2 years and can count on one hand the number of serves I've faced that looked anywhere near as fast as a pro's second serve. Admittedly I play in the pacific northwest with wet cool sea-level air. That tends to take a bit off the ball compared to when i head down to the desert. But still, I think there is a difference between fluking off a 100 mph serve when someone points a radar camera at you and averaging 100 mph.
navigator
Hall of Fame
It. Is. Delusional.
I've seen a *few* guys in 4.5 tournaments that could crack the occasional 110mph serve, but the *average* was probably in the low-90s. And this is at the far right end of the distribution, obviously.
navigator
Hall of Fame
Do you not see the irony here... a guy who won't post the video of his serve (despite boasting about its potency and his athleticism) labeling the OP as insecure about his serve? Pot, meet kettle.
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Nashvegas
Guest
In fairness, not many who've posted here, unless I've lost track, have suggested that 100 mph is a rec average. I agree with you that's nowhere close to right. I think more guys could hit that hard, but it's not the current state.
navigator
Hall of Fame
Yes, just like more guys could play 5.0 tennis if they were willing to commit more time, effort, (money?) etc to their game. But very few have the time or inclination for that kind of dedication to a non-remunerative hobby. It's just not worth it.
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Nashvegas
Guest
Not really "just like". You don't have to be a 5.0 player to serve that hard. You could spend a few weeks working on your serve and get there.
navigator
Hall of Fame
Then you should teach this guy your method: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/serving-is-becoming-masochistic-to-me.597992/
He's been working on his serve for what seems like forever. Perhaps you're both in Vegas (I believe he is)? Would be a great test case.
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Nashvegas
Guest
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Poor old @dgold44. That guy hasn't been working on that serve for years. Maybe next year is the time!
I just want a basic kick serve that kicks up 7 feet and bounces to the side fence !!!
God is a mentally sick man
Highly unlikely !!!
Next year I will be lying half dead in a dirty casino drinking White Russians
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Worse fates have been met.
justinmadison
Semi-Pro
I have a radar gun which I brought to one of our 4.5 practices.
After everyone had a go at it they all declared it must be "reading low"
I have what is considered "a big server" for our group. I could barely break 90. That is my hit it as hard as you can server. Not an actual match server.
My son plays D1 tennis and can hit it 110 - 115. If he hits a body server I just try to deflect it without getting hurt. If he hits one of the corners I just blink as it goes by.
4.5's hitting 100+ ... maybe it happens somewhere ... I guess. (but I doubt it)
I personally think good 4.5's hit 80 or 85 average 1st serves tops ( if anything I think this estimate is on the high side)
After everyone had a go at it they all declared it must be "reading low"
I have what is considered "a big server" for our group. I could barely break 90. That is my hit it as hard as you can server. Not an actual match server.
My son plays D1 tennis and can hit it 110 - 115. If he hits a body server I just try to deflect it without getting hurt. If he hits one of the corners I just blink as it goes by.
4.5's hitting 100+ ... maybe it happens somewhere ... I guess. (but I doubt it)
I personally think good 4.5's hit 80 or 85 average 1st serves tops ( if anything I think this estimate is on the high side)
toby55555
Hall of Fame
Yes 90-100 looks right.
toby55555
Hall of Fame
As you may know the speed guns at tournaments measure the speed just after leaving the racket. You can add at least 10% to a radar gun positioned at the net.I have a radar gun which I brought to one of our 4.5 practices.
After everyone had a go at it they all declared it must be "reading low"
I have what is considered "a big server" for our group. I could barely break 90. That is my hit it as hard as you can server. Not an actual match server.
My son plays D1 tennis and can hit it 110 - 115. If he hits a body server I just try to deflect it without getting hurt. If he hits one of the corners I just blink as it goes by.
4.5's hitting 100+ ... maybe it happens somewhere ... I guess. (but I doubt it)
I personally think good 4.5's hit 80 or 85 average 1st serves tops ( if anything I think this estimate is on the high side)
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Nah man. Federer is hitting 95 mph second serves tonight. You're saying those guys are hitting Federer's second serve in that video? Nah.
toby55555
Hall of Fame
Pros put a lot more 'work' on the ball.
eelhc
Hall of Fame
Like I've said... there are many guys ho consistently hit their frying pan first serve in the 3 digit range...... out. followed by a just get it in 2nd serve. Sort of funny and painful to watch. Let's see... There is...
- Hit the back curtain serve (or over the fence outdoors)
- The get it in the center of the wrong wrong box serve
- Ping pong serve - bounce on their side of the court and bounce on the opponents side of the court
- The contort the body to "chase the toss" serve (often in a foot fault)
- The hit it in the next court over serve
- The plunk your doubles partner serve (bonus if you can bounce it off your doubles partner and hit the side/back curtain... yep... seen it happen)
- The plunk your opponents net man serve
What I have come to notice is the better players don't think of first or second serve but rather flat, spin, kick, twist and generally use the higher percentage serve as their second. But like a good pitcher, they'll move the ball and change the spin.
- I've been the head the ball bounced off of before hitting the side curtain.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
I remember that feeling when I was teaching myself to hit a kick serve. I didn't have a coach and I just couldn't make progress for a while. I remember how liberating it felt to be able to just swing at the ball and not worry about what I was doing wrong.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
I wouldn't consider being blunt a sign of insecurity. I value my privacy and so I'm not posting a video on this forum. Get over it.
navigator
Hall of Fame
Most people value their privacy - that's common. What you value in this case is your anonymity. They're two different concepts.
But don't sweat it, man. Lots of folks here like to talk up their game and criticize others' games while providing zero evidence regarding the former. So you've got plenty of company.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
You have a very poor understanding of people if you think anyone would record and post a video just because you doubt their claims on an internet forum. Rofl. Get a life.
navigator
Hall of Fame
That's a strawman argument as I've already noted that the vast majority of folks like you never post anything - video or otherwise. So, clearly, I'm fully aware of the anonymity you seek to maintain - it's the norm. I don't expect you to post any evidence of your tennis ability (or lack thereof). Ever. That's about as clear as I can be on the issue.
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