Safin vs Wawrinka - who is the better player?

abmk · Oct 6, 2017

People need to remember Safin reached #1 in 00.
Stan was never capable of that kind of consistency.

Safin has 5 masters (1 Canada, 1 Madrid, 3 Paris) to 1 for Stan(Monte Carlo 14)

Safin beat Sampras in Canada 00, Scud in a great final in Paris 00, dominated Hewitt in Paris 02 final, beat agassi convincingly in madrid 04 and dominated nalby in the final there, beat Hewitt in Paris 04 QF.

Druss · Oct 6, 2017

heninfan99 said:
Safin had the highest peak play I've ever seen but it was only for a match. Yes, the 2000 US Open Final.

They are close but the edge in mental strength is the decider for me and I pick The Stanimal. Let's be real, he sent Djokovic into hiatus and buckled Nadal.

Tell me, which was Stanimal's best match? How do you think it would have panned out had he faced Safin of USO F 2000?

mike danny · Oct 6, 2017

Druss said:
Tell me, which was Stanimal's best match? How do you think it would have panned out had he faced Safin of USO F 2000?

It has to be FO 2015 final.

Druss · Oct 6, 2017

Fabresque said:
Safin has a better backhand than Wawrinka? Ok. Wawrinka has a better forehand than Safin? Now this is going too far.

You’re entitled to an opinion but come on, this seems like a complete reversal.

Safin's peak BH is better than Djokovic's! It's not an opinion, it's a fact! It lacks consistency hence why overall people would sooner chose Djoker's BH, which I can understand.

The FH was the hardest to pick, I was even tempted to call it a parity. Safin's FH was extremely erratic, and Wawa's FH was quite solid between 2013-16. Either way you look at it, could swing both ways, but overall it's close.

2nd Serve Ace · Oct 6, 2017

Sabratha said:
And today we have world beaters like Zverev and Thiem deep within the top 10, lmao!

Peak Safin wouldn't touch Thiem on a Clay court!

Safin vs Zverev indoors would be entertaining, at least.

4 top 10 players are out of tennis, currently.

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Druss · Oct 6, 2017

mike danny said:
Would Wawrinka have won Safin's slams? That's the question.

I can't see Wawrinka winning USO 2000 or AO 2005. He's not going past Sampras and Federer.
Safin def wouldn't have won RG 2015, but peak Safin would take AO '14 and USO '16 quite easily.

Deleted member 307496 · Oct 6, 2017

2nd Serve Ace said:
Peak Safin wouldn't touch Thiem on a Clay court!

But beat Kuerten as a kid, OK lmao.

2nd Serve Ace said:
Safin vs Zverev indoors would be entertaining, at least.

Are you serious? Safin was a beast indoors.

Druss · Oct 6, 2017

Mainad said:
Stan beat Federer in the quarter-finals of RG in straight sets on his way to winning the title, and also beat him in the final of Monte-Carlo, the same year he won the AO.

Do you really think Federer on clay in 2014/15 was the same as say back in 2006-09?

George Turner · Oct 6, 2017

Safin had a higher peak, world no.1. Unfortunately his peak was very short.

2000 Safin vs Sampras at the US open was one of the greatest performances you'll see, no version of Sampras would have beaten him that day (except maybe the Sampras who played Agassi in 1999 Wimbledon)

That match eclipses the Stanimal even at his best. Stanimal at 2015 French still loses to Prime Nadal there.

2nd Serve Ace · Oct 6, 2017

Sabratha said:
But beat Kuerten as a kid, OK lmao.

Are you serious? Safin was a beast indoors.

#1 Just proves my point: WEAK ERA!!! Stan would destroy all three, and has.

#2 Ok, why couldn't he win the 2000 finals to be YE #1 if he was so good? If Safin had come through, I likely would change my vote

George Turner · Oct 6, 2017

2nd Serve Ace said:
#1 Just proves my point: WEAK ERA!!! Stan would destroy all three, and has.

#2 Ok, why couldn't he win the 2000 finals to be YE #1 if he was so good?

Guga Kuerten won that tournament. When Kuerten wins a indoor tournament you know strange things happened in that tournament.

The other answer to your question is because beast mode Safin didn't show very often.

Deleted member 307496 · Oct 6, 2017

2nd Serve Ace said:
#1 Just proves my point: WEAK ERA!!! Stan would destroy all three, and has.

1) How can you even talk about a supposed "weak era" when Federer at 36 is able to be No. 2 in the world coupled with the consensus being that 2017 is the worst year in Men's tennis with 2016 not far behind?

2) There's no way Wawrinka destroys Kuerten if he struggles with Andy Murray on clay. That's almost insane. Kuerten is a 3 time FO winner and destroyed (actually did) Fed there in 2004 when he was a shell of himself there after multiple surgeries.

2nd Serve Ace said:
#2 Ok, why couldn't he win the 2000 finals to be YE #1 if he was so good?

Maybe because in 2000 Agassi and Sampras were still top players? Kuerten was also in impeccable form, beating Sampras and Agassi there (IIRC) and ended up winning the title.

Deleted member 307496 · Oct 6, 2017

George Turner said:
Guga Kuerten won that tournament. When Kuerten wins a indoor tournament you know strange things happened in that tournament.

The other answer to your question is because beast mode Safin didn't show very often.

If that's what you're saying about Kuerten's level at that YEC then it's clear you never watched that tournament.

Can't declare something as weak without watching it and look at who he went through.

He was just destined for the 2000 YE No. 1.

2nd Serve Ace · Oct 6, 2017

Sabratha said:
If that's what you're saying about Kuerten's level at that YEC then it's clear you never watched that tournament.

Can't declare something as weak without watching it and look at who he went through.

He was just destined for the 2000 YE No. 1.

Yes, I have watched it. Guga was an earlier adopter of Poly and it showed versus the old guard! So why isn't this thread Guga vs Stan?

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Deleted member 307496 · Oct 6, 2017

2nd Serve Ace said:
Yes, I have watched it. Guga was an earlier adopter of Poly and it showed versus the old guard! So why isn't this thread Guga vs Stan?

Because Kuerten is better than Stan...

Same number of majors but Kuerten is more accomplished in other areas.

You could actually almost make a case for Kuerten being equal with Murray.

mike danny · Oct 6, 2017

Sabratha said:
Because Kuerten is better than Stan...

Same number of majors but Kuerten is more accomplished in other areas.

You could actually almost make a case for Kuerten being equal with Murray.

Hmmm, Stan has won slams at 3 different venues. Guga doesn't even have a QF outside RG.

Although he was no.1 so that is something he has over Stan.

But Murray is better than Guga by every possible metric.

2nd Serve Ace · Oct 6, 2017

George Turner said:
Guga Kuerten won that tournament. When Kuerten wins a indoor tournament you know strange things happened in that tournament.

The other answer to your question is because beast mode Safin didn't show very often.

Safin's win against Federer in the SF was amazing, just a phenomenal tie break comeback. But honestly, Sampras was really weak in that USO final and then again in 2001 versus Hewitt. (Sampras equipment is obsolete by this time).

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Deleted member 307496 · Oct 6, 2017

mike danny said:
Hmmm, Stan has won slams at 3 different venues. Guga doesn't even have a QF outside RG.

Although he was no.1 so that is something he has over Stan.

But Murray is better than Guga by every possible metric.

Yeah but Kuerten also has 3 of the same major - Stan has never defended a slam and after winning in 2000 Kuerten defended his title in 2001.

Kuerten has that YEC that puts him above Stan too IMO.

I was reaching a bit but I think Kuerten is certainly above Stan.

Deleted member 307496 · Oct 6, 2017

2nd Serve Ace said:
Safin's win against Federer in the SF was amazing, just a phenomenal tie break comeback. But honestly, Sampras was really weak in that USO final and then again in 2001 versus Hewitt. (Sampras equipment is obsolete by this time).

Hewitt didn't even use poly until 2005 himself lmao...

Druss · Oct 6, 2017

2nd Serve Ace said:
But honestly, Sampras was really weak in that USO final and then again in 2001 versus Hewitt. (Sampras equipment is obsolete by this time).

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Sampras actually had a solid campaign at the USO 2000, coming from a 7th Wimbledon title just a few weeks prior, dropping only 1 set en-route to the final IIRC. He was just hapless, had no answer to the young Safin's GOATing performance. Period!

I could never forget that match, I was in awe of the young Russian's performance and I would have sworn that this young lad was going to dominate tennis for the next decade. Sadly it didn't happen. Even commentators and former ATGs praised that performance as one of the greatest ever.

heninfan99 · Oct 6, 2017

Druss said:
Tell me, which was Stanimal's best match? How do you think it would have panned out had he faced Safin of USO F 2000?

Well that's the thing. Stan did it for more than a match. Knocked Berdych, Djokster and Nadal iirc to get his first slam

His RG final against Djokster certainly holds up on its own.

Meles · Oct 6, 2017

TennisSprout said:
Well, Safin was a threat to everyone including Federer when he was on fire while Wawrinka never ever challenged a peak/prime Federer. Wawrinka might have 3 slams mainly because of his good match up with Djokovic, while Safin won 2 of his majors beating 2 candidates of GOAT.

I vote for Safin, although I will always appreciate Wawrinka's winning over Djokovic at 2015 FO final, which had kept Djokovic from winning a CYGS and kept some of his fanboys at bay.

This. Safin wins hands down for his accomplishments.

Of course throw Wawrinka back in time and he'd probably beat Safin handily as the game has changed quite a bit.

2nd Serve Ace · Oct 6, 2017

Sabratha said:
Hewitt didn't even use poly until 2005 himself lmao...

Well your talking an almost Continental FH vs a strong SW FH. All the surfaces are being slowed down plus the air is taken out of the ball at Wimbledon.

Just a different game imho.

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masao · Oct 6, 2017

TennisSprout said:
Well, Safin was a threat to everyone including Federer when he was on fire while Wawrinka never ever challenged a peak/prime Federer. Wawrinka might have 3 slams mainly because of his good match up with Djokovic, while Safin won 2 of his majors beating 2 candidates of GOAT.

I vote for Safin, although I will always appreciate Wawrinka's winning over Djokovic at 2015 FO final, which had kept Djokovic from winning a CYGS and kept some of his fanboys at bay.

Wawrinka is better player than Federer on Plexicushion. Cuz Wawrinka defeats Djokovic while Federer never ever Challenged a peak Djokovic on Plexicushion.

masao · Oct 6, 2017

US open final in the 2000 is not special performance. Hewitt in the 2001 USO final was worse than his loss to Safin the year before. Safin just whomped him. Hewitt took advantage of Sampras' sluggishness and passed him and dipped it low left and right

TennisSprout · Oct 6, 2017

masao said:
Wawrinka is better player than Federer on Plexicushion. Cuz Wawrinka defeats Djokovic while Federer never ever Challenged a peak Djokovic on Plexicushion.

Well, the fact Wawrinka defeated a peak Djokovic at AO proved nothing but that he was a better match up with Djokovic than Federer on Plexicushion. Let's not forget Wawrinka lost to a 35-year-old Federer this year on Plexicushion.

Arti · Oct 6, 2017

Safin had higher peak during his grand slam runs and his matches against Federer in the Year End Tour Finals, however Wawrinka is better overall as he is more mentally stable.

masao · Oct 6, 2017

TennisSprout said:
Well, the fact Wawrinka defeated a peak Djokovic at AO proved nothing but that he was a better match up with Djokovic than Federer on Plexicushion. Let's not forget Wawrinka lost to a 35-year-old Federer this year on Plexicushion.

Federer 1-3 Nadal
0-3 Djokovic

Wawrinka 1-0 Nadal
1-2 Djokovic

Not match up.Wawrinka better player than Federer on Plexicushion

TennisSprout · Oct 6, 2017

masao said:
Federer 1-3 Nadal
0-3 Djokovic

Wawrinka 1-0 Nadal
1-2 Djokovic

Not match up.Wawrinka better player than Federer on Plexicushion

My point was that Wawrinka never challenged Federer even though he did well on Plexicushion for the past few years.

Arti · Oct 6, 2017

TennisSprout said:
My point was that Wawrinka never challenged Federer even though he did well on Plexicushion for the past few years.

But then thats like saying Federer is not a great player because Nadal owned him on clay.

TennisSprout · Oct 6, 2017

Arti said:
But then thats like saying Federer is not a great player because Nadal owned him on clay.

I never said Wawrinka was not a great player. He was a great player, just not as good as Federer even in his god mode while a hot Safin could seriously challenge Federer.

Arti · Oct 6, 2017

TennisSprout said:
I never said Wawrinka was not a great player. He was a great player, just not as good as Federer even in his god mode while a hot Safin could seriously challenge Federer.

I feel like comparing them to other players, especially Roger, is off topic. The discussion is who is better in their peak form and I believe the answer is Safin, however Safin was too mentally unstable therefore Wawrinka is the better player overall.

AngryBirds · Oct 7, 2017

Druss said:
Wawrinka and Safin are similar in some ways. Both have incredible high peak levels, high enough to challenge peak/prime Federer, Nadal or Djokovic. Both are unpredictable/inconsistent, beating ATGs to win a slam one tournament, only to lose to challenger level players the next, frustrating as a fan of either. Both have Open Era Top 3 GOAT BHs (1 DHBH/1 SHBH), as well as similar career win/loss %. Both won similar number of ATP titles (15/16), and also made 4 slam finals and winning Davis Cup. Wawrinka won one more slam, but Safin makes it up with 4 more Masters titles, so achievement-wise, it's very similar.

Who has the better:

Serve - Safin
FH - Wawrinka
BH - Safin
Volleys - Safin
Overheads - Safin
Movement/footwork - Wawrinka (clay), Safin (HC), parity (grass)
Mental strength - Wawrinka

Some of their best tournaments:
Safin - A0 '05, Paris Bercy '02 (I think), USO '00, AO '02 (how he lost that final is tennis' biggest mystery) and WTF '04 (lost a tight SF to Fed which included a massive TB - had his chances to close out the 2nd set then it's anyone's guess who'll win in the 3rd - Hewitt would have been toast in the final either way).

Wawa - AO '14, RG '15, MC '14 and AO '13 (had his chances to close it out vs Djoker but choked, could have won the whole thing had he won that match).

Putting bias aside, I have to go with Safin as the greater of the two. Just watch the USO final 2000 how he dismantled Sampras, or any of his GOATing matches and you'll know were i'm coming from.

What are your thoughts?

Since when has Stanimal ever challenged Nadal? Stanimal mode was on this year at RG and look what Nadal did to him.

Deleted member 716271 · Oct 7, 2017

I voted Safin after reading OP but the way the thread title reads "who is the better player", I would have voted Wawrinka.

Safin wins peak by a hair I think although the AO 05 level is a tad overrated imo, I think his peak beats out Wawa's by a whisker. Wawa's clearly had a better overall career though.

NoleFam · Oct 7, 2017

125downthemiddle said:
I voted Safin after reading OP but the way the thread title reads "who is the better player", I would have voted Wawrinka.

Safin wins peak by a hair I think although the AO 05 level is a tad overrated imo, I think his peak beats out Wawa's by a whisker. Wawa's clearly had a better overall career though.

I think Safin has the higher peak level also, just by a bit. I think Safin has the ability to beat anybody past or present when he is on and I can't exactly say the same for Wawrinka. I do think Wawrinka is slightly overrated thanks to Djokovic failing to beat him in big matches that he probably should have won. However, I would have loved to see AO 2005 Safin versus AO 2014 Wawrinka. That would be a crazy match.

mike danny · Oct 7, 2017

masao said:
Federer 1-3 Nadal
0-3 Djokovic

Wawrinka 1-0 Nadal
1-2 Djokovic

Not match up.Wawrinka better player than Federer on Plexicushion

Then you will be shocked to discover that Federer is 2-0 vs Wawrinka on Plexicusion and has 2 titles on it to Stan's 1.

Druss · Oct 7, 2017

AngryBirds said:
Since when has Stanimal ever challenged Nadal? Stanimal mode was on this year at RG and look what Nadal did to him.

Stanimal did not show up at RG this year, sorry to tell you. He did however show up at AO'14, and we all know what happened there.

lud · Oct 7, 2017

Wawrinka.

tennisplayer1993 · Oct 7, 2017

heninfan99 said:
Safin had the highest peak play I've ever seen but it was only for a match. Yes, the 2000 US Open Final.

They are close but the edge in mental strength is the decider for me and I pick The Stanimal. Let's be real, he sent Djokovic into hiatus and buckled Nadal.

I was actually surprised how hard Safin could hit his serve. Didn't he hit 135 a few times during this match too?? Honestly the only major limitation I felt he had at times was his footwork and how to use his big framed 6'4'' body into points. I felt he had that issue often in 2000. He really underperformed form 2001-2002. He did resurge at times in early 2004 and early 2005 but then fell off a lot.

I often felt his forehand was underrated too. The 2000 Safin could hit it cleanly pretty darn hard.

His passing shots were ridiculous too. He definitely hit some groundstrokes over 100 mph that day. I still remember how much a long term tennis fan I knew raved about his performance that day.

Also an 05 Safin vs. 14 Wawrinka on the mid 2000s surface would have been one hell of a match. I still think 05 Safin vs. Federer is one of the best matches ever at the AO.

H_Richardson · Oct 7, 2017

Stan on clay and slow hard, Safin everywhere else. Probably Safin overall but it's pretty tight.

heninfan99 · Oct 7, 2017

tennisplayer1993 said:
I was actually surprised how hard Safin could hit his serve. Didn't he hit 135 a few times during this match too?? Honestly the only major limitation I felt he had at times was his footwork and how to use his big framed 6'4'' body into points. I felt he had that issue often in 2000. He really underperformed form 2001-2002. He did resurge at times in early 2004 and early 2005 but then fell off a lot.

I often felt his forehand was underrated too. The 2000 Safin could hit it cleanly pretty darn hard.

His passing shots were ridiculous too. He definitely hit some groundstrokes over 100 mph that day. I still remember how much a long term tennis fan I knew raved about his performance that day.

Also an 05 Safin vs. 14 Wawrinka on the mid 2000s surface would have been one hell of a match. I still think 05 Safin vs. Federer is one of the best matches ever at the AO.

Yeah, Safin was an amazing player.

crazyups · Oct 7, 2017

Stan was the french open finalist besides his 3 slams.

ojo rojo · Oct 8, 2017

Mazz Retic · Oct 8, 2017

delete

H_Richardson · Oct 8, 2017

Rod Laver said:
Safin even on grass? I know he made a SF but still..

He's the best of a bad bunch I suppose. Stan hasn't set the world alight either on grass.

Mazz Retic · Oct 8, 2017

H_Richardson said:
He's the best of a bad bunch I suppose. Stan hasn't set the world alight either on grass.

I agree although I was impressed by his 2014 run. I think he would have beaten Federer at Wimbledon had he not been injured mid match and had he made it to the final vs djokovic who knows. Of course all speculation.

aceh40 · Oct 8, 2017

Sport said:
Safin was only 9 weeks as #1. Juan Carlos Ferrero was also 8 weeks as #1 and nobody considers him better than Wawrinka. I'm sorry but 9 weeks as #1 is definetely not as relevant as a Grand Slam. 3>2.

Safin was the best player in the world, albeit for a short period of time. Wawrinka was never the best player in the world. Not even close.

Someone said above that the years when Safin, Ferrero and Hewitt were number one were a weak era. That is BS. There was no one (or 4) dominating player. But tennis was at very high level.

The fact is that Federer owned every player born between 1976 and 1987 with the exception of Nadal. So, players like Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, Ferrero etc. did not stand a chance after 2003.

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aceh40 · Oct 8, 2017

Druss said:
Wawrinka and Safin are similar in some ways. Both have incredible high peak levels, high enough to challenge peak/prime Federer, Nadal or Djokovic. Both are unpredictable/inconsistent, beating ATGs to win a slam one tournament, only to lose to challenger level players the next, frustrating as a fan of either. Both have Open Era Top 3 GOAT BHs (1 DHBH/1 SHBH), as well as similar career win/loss %. Both won similar number of ATP titles (15/16), and also made 4 slam finals and winning Davis Cup. Wawrinka won one more slam, but Safin makes it up with 4 more Masters titles, so achievement-wise, it's very similar.

Who has the better:

Serve - Safin
FH - Wawrinka
BH - Safin
Volleys - Safin
Overheads - Safin
Movement/footwork - Wawrinka (clay), Safin (HC), parity (grass)
Mental strength - Wawrinka

Some of their best tournaments:
Safin - A0 '05, Paris Bercy '02 (I think), USO '00, AO '02 (how he lost that final is tennis' biggest mystery) and WTF '04 (lost a tight SF to Fed which included a massive TB - had his chances to close out the 2nd set then it's anyone's guess who'll win in the 3rd - Hewitt would have been toast in the final either way).

Wawa - AO '14, RG '15, MC '14 and AO '13 (had his chances to close it out vs Djoker but choked, could have won the whole thing had he won that match).

Putting bias aside, I have to go with Safin as the greater of the two. Just watch the USO final 2000 how he dismantled Sampras, or any of his GOATing matches and you'll know were i'm coming from.

What are your thoughts?

Safin definitely had a lot more talent and potential. He was on par with Agassi, Federer and Nadal in terms of potential. He was simply more serious about vodka then tennis in order to be a consistently dominant player. In that regard he is more similar to Mark Philipousis (but more successful) .

Wawrinka resembles Rafter - a top 20 player who figured out how to beat the top players later in his career and made it to 4 slam finals.

I was very impressed how Rafter defeated Sampras at the US Open after Sampras had said that the difference between the two of them was 11 slams.

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H_Richardson · Oct 8, 2017

Rod Laver said:
I agree although I was impressed by his 2014 run. I think he would have beaten Federer at Wimbledon had he not been injured mid match and had he made it to the final vs djokovic who knows. Of course all speculation.

He had a good chance to beat Federer but I think Djoker takes him out fairly easily if he does make the final.

SafinSucks · Oct 8, 2017

Definitely Stanislas Wawrinka.

Safin vs Wawrinka - who is the better player?

god mode Safin vs Stanimal...who had the higher peak play?

Safin

Wawrinka

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