Fixing the waiter's tray serve

Curious · Dec 18, 2017

I have been pondering on this lately. You know the ugly movement of the racket face looking up the sky rather than moving edge on. I don't know why but it irritates my eyes so much that for example I can't tolerate watching Ferrer's serve more than a few times in a row. Forget about the power, speed etc, it's an esthetic issue for me. I know it's just crazy. Considering that it's like a natural instinct to swing the racket with the face on because in the end you are hitting the ball with the face of the racket, I have been practicing in a way that I am trying to hit the ball with the edge of the racket hence no more need to lead with the racket face during the swing. Once I get used to this I'm thinking of adding the last second pronation to open up the face of the racket towards the contact and voila! the waiter's tray is gone!

Does that make sense and do you think this may work?

Pete Player · Dec 18, 2017

I'd prefer chapters in a post...

Curious · Dec 18, 2017

Pete Player said:
I'd prefer chapters in a post...

It's one chapter to me but yeah it looks a little crowded on a mobile phone screen.

Chas Tennis · Dec 18, 2017

What does Ferrer's serve have to do with the OP?

Pete Player · Dec 18, 2017

I could watch this for hours...

It is not the waiters tray, but the things happening after that trophy position. What an excellent motion in the arm!

Curious · Dec 18, 2017

Pete Player said:
I could watch this for hours...

It is not the waiters tray, but the things happening after that trophy position. What an excellent motion in the arm!

This is the racket path that's esthetic to my eyes, ie edge on all the way without opening up into the sky.

Curious · Dec 18, 2017

Here is another one with 100% edge on racket path all the way.

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 18, 2017

Chas Tennis said:
What does Ferrer's serve have to do with the OP?

Hint of WTE in the racket drop but it does not appear to manifest in his upward swing.

Pete Player · Dec 18, 2017

I can see that, but after the racket reaching the right side of their body again before throwing forward, it's quite the same.

I don't know the precise definition to waiter's tray, but to my biomechanic eye, I do not see Ferrer serving a tray. The forward motion is the key to me.

Would you, @Curious, consider the staggered motion also ugly by the same standards as Ferrer's?

Chas Tennis · Dec 18, 2017

Curious said:
.............Considering that it's like a natural instinct to swing the racket with the face on because in the end you are hitting the ball with the face of the racket, I have been practicing in a way that I am trying to hit the ball with the edge of the racket hence no more need to lead with the racket face during the swing. Once I get used to this I'm thinking of adding the last second pronation to open up the face of the racket towards the contact and voila! the waiter's tray is gone! Does that make sense and do you think this may work?

The WT develops racket head speed with little internal shoulder rotation. One important characteristic of the Waiter's Tray should be that the hand path will be different than for the high level serve. The WT hand path will probably be more toward the ball and more aligned with the ball's trajectory. ? But for the high level serve the hand path is directed considerably to the side of the ball's trajectory. This hand path angle shows up at certain camera angles in videos of the serve. Best is the overhead camera view. But there are not many good videos to see the hand path for the WT serve relative to the ball's trajectory.

Hand path for high level serve. Look at the angle between the hand path and ball trajectory.

I'd like to see the same for a WT.

I think that you have to change the hand path.

There is a myth that lingers because it is said so often. That the racket face turns 'at the last second' before impact. (Of course nearly everything in the entire service motion is in 'the last second' because the entire motion lasts only about a second.) You can turn the racket face just before impact, in the last milliseconds, to get the right alignment to direct the ball and some poster's of their serves have done exactly that. But prior to that time with a WT you have not been adding to racket head speed with ISR. Turning the racket face 'last second' is another technique that aligns the face of the racket, but leaves out the largest single joint contribution to racket head speed, ISR. It is faking a checkpoint ......

It helps when thinking about these issues to use the properly defined terms for the joint motions and clearly understand when what you are reading is, or is not, using the terms as defined. Ambiguous usage of the word 'pronation' hurts communication. Ambiguous usage, ambiguous understanding and what do we have, the same old threads as 10 or 15 years ago.....

Curious · Dec 18, 2017

Pete Player said:
I can see that, but after the racket reaching the right side of their body again before throwing forward, it's quite the same.

I don't know the precise definition to waiter's tray, but to my biomechanic eye, I do not see Ferrer serving a tray. The forward motion is the key to me.

Would you, @Curious, consider the staggered motion also ugly by the same standards as Ferrer's?

I agree, the upward swing is edge on and that's probably what matters. It's a weird esthetic thing as I said before. But in the real waiters tray serve, the racket goes up with its face on during the upward swing. That's the issue I am trying to fix.

Pete Player said:
Would you, @Curious, consider the staggered motion also ugly by the same standards as Ferrer's?

That doesn't bother me somehow.

Curious · Dec 18, 2017

Chas Tennis said:
There is a myth that lingers because it is said so often. That the racket face turns 'at the last second' before impact. (of course nearly everything in the entire service motion is in 'the last second' because the entire motion lasts only about a second.) You can turn the racket face just before impact, in the last milliseconds, to get the right alignment and some poster's of their serves have done exactly that. But prior to that time you have not been adding to racket head speed with ISR. Turning the racket face 'last second' is another technique that aligns the face of the racket but leaves out the largest single joint contribution to racket head speed, ISR. It is faking a checkpoint......
...

I agree. 'Tray' is only one part of the waiter's tray serve and maybe the minor part. The real problem is the lack of throw and being mostly a push type serve using the elbow extension by triceps and wrist flexion at the top of the swing, hence using only small muscles to power the serve. Another way of looking at it is this: A pro can serve with the racket face going up all the way even in the upward swing and hit a powerful serve and a rec player with WT serve can swing the racket edge on and it will still be a poor serve.

Pete Player · Dec 18, 2017

Curious said:
I agree, the upward swing is edge on and that's probably what matters. It's a weird esthetic thing as I said before. But in the real waiters tray serve, the racket goes up with its face on during the upward swing. That's the issue I am trying to fix.

So, my suggestion would be first fix the grip into eastern or semi-western bh and then start to brush the ball on the edge. Then start hitting slice serves as long as you feel comfortable with the motion and the grip without too much pronation. Turning more sideways with the stance would help.

After comfy with the slice serve, move towards more direct stance and fiddle in the pronation of your forearm. Even, if you never learned the pronation properly, a slice serve can really be deadly up till around 4.0, 5.0 even depending on the rest of your game.

willeric · Dec 18, 2017

Chas Tennis said:
The WT develops racket head speed with little internal shoulder rotation.

Those who can hit a high speed WT serve definitely use ISR. I would go as far to say it's the easiest way to use ISR and that's why so many rec tennis players have a WT. If you face the net, and try a WT serve, you can see that you are using ISR. A WT serve is equivalent to throwing a ball directly at the other service box.

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 18, 2017

Curious said:
.. I have been practicing in a way that I am trying to hit the ball with the edge of the racket hence no more need to lead with the racket face during the swing...

Could be of some use. Let us know if it works for YOU. You might also take some old rackets out to the park and perform some ax/hatchet throws. Release the racket "on edge". Try it for spin serve swings (brush UP or brush across) as well as flat serve swings.

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 18, 2017

willeric said:
Those who can hit a high speed WT serve definitely use ISR. I would go as far to say it's the easiest way to use ISR and that's why so many rec tennis players have a WT. If you face the net, and try a WT serve, you can see that you are using ISR. A WT serve is equivalent to throwing a ball directly at the other service box.

Yeah, I would say that ISR is involved in many WT serves. But it appears to be used in a different manner than a proper (no WTE) serve. For the latter, there is both forearm pronation and ISR. For the WT serves you mention, some ISR but little or no pronation.

Dragy · Dec 18, 2017

Pete Player said:
So, my suggestion would be first fix the grip into eastern or semi-western bh and then start to brush the ball on the edge. Then start hitting slice serves as long as you feel comfortable with the motion and the grip without too much pronation. Turning more sideways with the stance would help.

After comfy with the slice serve, move towards more direct stance and fiddle in the pronation of your forearm. Even, if you never learned the pronation properly, a slice serve can really be deadly up till around 4.0, 5.0 even depending on the rest of your game.

Will not closer grip promote even more effort to open up the face? I’d go with hitting mid to extreme slice served with conti grip, which promotes edge-on, supinate forearm upward swing. Then find out how to “release” the swing tad earlier so that ISR flattens our the racquet face before contact - to achieve flatter serve?

Pete Player · Dec 18, 2017

Dragy said:
Will not closer grip promote even more effort to open up the face? I’d go with hitting mid to extreme slice served with conti grip, which promotes edge-on, supinate forearm upward swing. Then find out how to “release” the swing tad earlier so that ISR flattens our the racquet face before contact - to achieve flatter serve?

Yes, that is the idea. Fool ones brains to make an uncoscious move to open the face, while trying to hit without pronation at first.

And that closed grip will take care of the backwards traying by itself.

Dragy · Dec 18, 2017

Pete Player said:
Yes, that is the idea. Fool ones brains to make an uncoscious move to open the face, while trying to hit without pronation at first.

And that closed grip will take care of the backwards traying by itself.

I mean, it will work for someone starting his upward swing freely, without opening face early in worry of not managing to do it in time. If he grips is EBH, racquet will travel up edge on, but he’ll still (or more) try pronate earlier, which will affect stroke/throwing motion fluidity.

Chas Tennis · Dec 18, 2017

willeric said:
Those who can hit a high speed WT serve definitely use ISR. I would go as far to say it's the easiest way to use ISR and that's why so many rec tennis players have a WT. If you face the net, and try a WT serve, you can see that you are using ISR. A WT serve is equivalent to throwing a ball directly at the other service box.

SystemicAnomaly said:
Yeah, I would say that ISR is involved in many WT serves. But it appears to be used in a different manner than a proper (no WTE) serve. For the latter, there is both forearm pronation and ISR. For the WT serves you mention, some ISR but little or no pronation.

I like to define the Waiter's Tray as in the HiTech Tennis webpage Waiter's Tray Error. It's clear and defines the Waiter's Tray at one location of the serve with pictures. (It does not use an undefined word definition such as the racket 'opens up' perhaps not even saying when it 'opens up' during the service motion.)

There are an infinite number of serve techniques. All serves that have the racket face the sky at some point are not the same as in the HiTech Waiter's Tray Error. If the racket faces the sky at some position, with, say, a bent elbow, that is a different technique. Calling it a WT gets confusing. If you have techniques similar to the WT - regarding the racket facing the sky please - provide a video or link showing the technique. Using ISR with a bent elbow is a different technique where the racket may face the sky but there is no Big L position because the elbow is bent.

TomT serve. Racket faces sky. Elbow bent. Uses ISR for forward racket motion. Not a WT. Sounded like pretty good pace.

Use of ISR for forward racket motion.

I believe that Toly made these pictures. (Where are you Toly?)

I would estimate that there are >10X as many WT (HiTech type) serves as there are of any of these somewhat similar serves to the WT. These other techniques such as the Bigservesofthands and TomT serves are relatively rare. The 134 MPH guy is just a blurry video with a blurry racket frame that looks as if it probably faces the sky = get a good high speed video next.

Any links or videos for these techniques?

SinjinCooper · Dec 18, 2017

In that clip, Ferrer's hitting flat serves. It's got to be more square at contact.

Thiem and Rafter are hitting heavy slices and kicks. They've got to be more sideways and glancing.

If the aesthetic blight of square contact is getting to you, hit more spin serves. Turn more sideways, and live like Mac.

Raul_SJ · Dec 18, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
Hint of WTE in the racket drop but it does not appear to manifest in his upward swing.

Not clear on which part of Ferrer's motion OP finds annoying.
Edit: OP seems to be referring to the racquet drop, not after "Big L".

In that case, Ferrer does not exhibit WTE on the way up. Don't think WTE on the way down affects the serve much -- just aesthetic. Far more serious is WTE on swing upwards.

There was a similar issue on the "Help me improve my 120mph serve". thread.

@Chas Tennis says he has examined several top serves and they tend to not open up as early.

This variation of WTE (or sub-optimal technique or whatever you wish to label it) is less of an issue compared to WTE before Big L, but issue still needs to be addressed.

The below will probably benefit by being more edge on. Can't tell conclusively without higher frame rate video. But he says he is getting only 10% in. That percentage will go up if he is more edge on. Bit of a slapping motion after Big L -- racquet head is moving forward and closing but is lacking the concurrent rotational component..

FiReFTW · Dec 18, 2017

Hit the ball with the edge of the racquet, u might not hit a good shot and will frame it bt at least u wont hit with WTE

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 18, 2017

@Curious @Raul_SJ @willeric

Chas Tennis said:
...

TomT serve. Racket faces sky. Elbow bent. Uses ISR for forward racket motion. Not a WT. Sounded like pretty good pace.

Use of ISR for forward racket motion.

What gives? Why has no one objected to this? This is clearly a WTE. The fact that the server gets a good pace and incorporates ISR and some wrist action do not disqualify this as WTE. Am I missing something here? BTW, Hi-TechTennis says:

"An extremely common technial error people make on their first serve is to open up the racket face too soon on the upswing. Andre's position in both frames is known as the "waiter's tray" position because it resembles how a waiter carries a tray on the palm of his hand... "

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/waiter_student.php

Curious · Dec 18, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
@Curious @Raul_SJ @willeric

What gives? Why has no one objected to this? This is clearly a WTE. The fact that the server gets a good pace and incorporates ISR and some wrist action do not disqualify this as WTE. Am I missing something here? BTW, Hi-TechTennis says:

"An extremely common technial error people make on their first serve is to open up the racket face too soon on the upswing. Andre's position in both frames is known as the "waiter's tray" position because it resembles how a waiter carries a tray on the palm of his hand... "

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

I think the first question to be answered is 'why is opening up racket face a bad thing?' The second : Is that the main problem with WT serve?
My answer is: leading the racket face on instead of edge on potentially slows down the swing and the other thing is it lacks the additional benefit of pronation into contact which reduces the power exerted on the ball.
But maybe the main issue is pushing rather than throwing which is another typical feature in WT serve.

Tennisanity · Dec 18, 2017

My guess is that people who have a waiter's tray serve have it because their swing path is incorrect.

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 18, 2017

Curious said:
I think the first question to be answered is 'why is opening up racket face a bad thing?' The second : Is that the main problem with WT serve?
My answer is: leading the racket face on instead of edge on potentially slows down the swing and the other thing is it lacks the additional benefit of pronation into contact which reduces the power exerted on the ball.
But maybe the main issue is pushing rather than throwing which is another typical feature in WT serve.

Opening up the racket face is not the issue. Opening it up EARLY is the problem. Torque or the twisting force applied to the hand/racket does not happen at the proper time. It does not contribute to RHS when it is needed. In order to generate a high RHS w/o this torque, other means must be employed to generate it. I suspect that it puts greater demands on the wrist or, perhaps, the wrist and shoulder.

Would be interesting to see a study on this since elite servers do not employ WT mechanics to generate RHS (for greater ball speed &/or spin).

Raul_SJ · Dec 19, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
@Curious @Raul_SJ @willeric

What gives? Why has no one objected to this? This is clearly a WTE. The fact that the server gets a good pace and incorporates ISR and some wrist action do not disqualify p

I had not read that post. Agree it's WT. Not sure why he chooses to serve with bent elbow. Injury?...

If it is the case that he's using a FH grip, I think WT is inevitable?

My guess is that Chas does not categorize it as WT if sufficient ISR is employed with the unusual bent-arm technique.

SinjinCooper · Dec 19, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
@Curious @Raul_SJ @willeric

What gives? Why has no one objected to this? This is clearly a WTE. The fact that the server gets a good pace and incorporates ISR and some wrist action do not disqualify this as WTE. Am I missing something here? BTW, Hi-TechTennis says:

"An extremely common technial error people make on their first serve is to open up the racket face too soon on the upswing. Andre's position in both frames is known as the "waiter's tray" position because it resembles how a waiter carries a tray on the palm of his hand... "

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/waiter_student.php

Not a waiter's tray.

All serves that open too soon are not waiter's trays. The WT is a fundamentally unsound motion, one important factor in which resembles a waiter holding a tray. But at the center of it all, it is a horribly incorrect throwing motion coupled with a grip that keeps the face open throughout the motion. It's a mechanical issue, poisoning the throwing motion part of the serve. With a WR, that throwing motion is too overhead, and uses the arm and shoulder to power the motion. This means that if you're going to see any ISR at all, you're going to have to force it, which makes it even worse. When you swing this way (reaching overhead), a forehand grip brings the racquet squarely up to the ball, and brings the racquet up to that point in a straight line. It goes from racquet drop, to waiter's tray, to square contact. It has to, because that's how the shoulder moves when you're holding it too overhead instead of using proper throwing mechanics.

THAT'S the waiter's tray error. Not what David Ferrer is doing on his serves. Not what "help my 134 mph serve" guy is doing.

They both have different flaws or inefficiencies, and those issues are not hard to spot, and they're very fixable. But this hyper-fascination with this one problem, when you guys (Chas in particular is at fault here) don't really know what it is, is just going to set people back.

134 mph guy is hitting too forward, and too flat. But is doing it with otherwise excellent mechanics. Those things necessitate square contact, which happens inevitably as a result of a good motion used incorrectly, rather than because the motion itself is inherently flawed. Attempting to fix what a misguided coach perceived as his, "waiter's tray error," would lead him very far astray from the correct fix, which has entirely to do with his contact point and swing path, and nothing whatsoever to do with his motion or mechanics.

Raul_SJ · Dec 19, 2017

Curious said:
I have been pondering on this lately. You know the ugly movement of the racket face looking up the sky rather than moving edge on. I don't know why but it irritates my eyes so much that for example I can't tolerate watching Ferrer's serve more than a few times in a row. Forget about the power, speed etc, it's an esthetic issue for me.

I'm still not clear on which part of Ferrer's motion you find irritating. During the racquet drop?

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 19, 2017

SinjinCooper said:
Not a waiter's tray.

All serves that open too soon are not waiter's trays. The WT is a fundamentally unsound motion, one important factor in which resembles a waiter holding a tray. But at the center of it all, it is a horribly incorrect throwing motion coupled with a grip that keeps the face open throughout the motion. It's a mechanical issue, poisoning the throwing motion part of the serve. With a WR, that throwing motion is too overhead, and uses the arm and shoulder to power the motion. This means that if you're going to see any ISR at all, you're going to have to force it, which makes it even worse. When you swing this way (reaching overhead), a forehand grip brings the racquet squarely up to the ball, and brings the racquet up to that point in a straight line. It goes from racquet drop, to waiter's tray, to square contact. It has to, because that's how the shoulder moves when you're holding it too overhead instead of using proper throwing mechanics.

THAT'S the waiter's tray error. Not what David Ferrer is doing on his serves. Not what "help my 134 mph serve" guy is doing.

They both have different flaws or inefficiencies, and those issues are not hard to spot, and they're very fixable. But this hyper-fascination with this one problem, when you guys (Chas in particular is at fault here) don't really know what it is, is just going to set people back.

134 mph guy is hitting too forward, and too flat. But is doing it with otherwise excellent mechanics. Those things necessitate square contact, which happens inevitably as a result of a good motion used incorrectly, rather than because the motion itself is inherently flawed. Attempting to fix what a misguided coach perceived as his, "waiter's tray error," would lead him very far astray from the correct fix, which has entirely to do with his contact point and swing path, and nothing whatsoever to do with his motion or mechanics.

Look again. I was not referring to the Ferrer serve at all in that post. Was talking about the Tom T serve presented in post #20. There is clearly ISR and wrist actions in that serve with little or no pronation on the upward swing. Racket is not on edge before, during or after the Big L position. There are a number of variations of WTE. This one is pretty common.

Curious · Dec 19, 2017

Raul_SJ said:
I'm still not clear on which part of Ferrer's motion you find irritating. During the racquet drop?

Yes.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 19, 2017

All this serve analysis is a joke.
Really totally useless.
This stuff is not a conscious decision.

Just get a hopper and hit the living **** out of the ball until it starts to go in

Chas Tennis · Dec 21, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
@Curious @Raul_SJ @willeric

What gives? Why has no one objected to this? This is clearly a WTE. The fact that the server gets a good pace and incorporates ISR and some wrist action do not disqualify this as WTE. Am I missing something here? BTW, Hi-TechTennis says:

"An extremely common technial error people make on their first serve is to open up the racket face too soon on the upswing. Andre's position in both frames is known as the "waiter's tray" position because it resembles how a waiter carries a tray on the palm of his hand... "

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/waiter_student.php

These terms are not well defined in many places that I know of. HiTech Tennis addressed the problem of defining the Waiter's Tray. Picture examples were presented. I go with their pictures. They compare servers at the Big L Position. Tom T and Bigservesofthands on the other hand, in my opinion, don't ever get to the Big L Position. Their upper arms don't go up but more to the side, their elbows are bent more, and they use considerable ISR for racket head speed. I believe the number of WT serves that I have seen is more that 10 times the number of serves like TomT's and Bigservesofthands's but I did not keep stats.

If you choose to define WT to include TomT's technique and those like it just provide what you are using. These terms are not widely defined as far as I know. HiTech has the best information that I have found and I vote for it.

A better way to divide would be into serves that don't use much ISR and have racket face to the sky, called Waiter's Tray, and serves with significant ISR and racket face to the sky called miscellaneous techniques. TomT's serve would be a miscellaneous technique.

My estimate of the stats for active tennis players are :
1) 60% Waiter's Tray
2) 30% Miscellaneous Techniques, no names, no descritptions. (I'd include the TomT serve technique there)
3) 20% High Level Serve

I believe Van der Meer estimated about 50% Waiter's Tray but used another name.

You may have a different estimate based on your years of experience with students.

But once identified the point is to understand what is there - a lower performance serving technique - and decide to keep it or change it to a high level technique. Spend no time on the lower performance techniques.

Maybe HiTech Tennis can comment as they have once before.

Raul_SJ · Dec 21, 2017

Chas Tennis said:
A better way to divide would be into serves that don't use much ISR and have racket face to the sky, called Waiter's Tray, and serves with significant ISR and racket face to the sky called miscellaneous techniques. TomT's serve would be a miscellaneous technique.

My estimate of the stats for active tennis players are :
1) 60% Waiter's Tray
2) 30% Miscellaneous Techniques, no names, no descritptions. (I'd include the TomT serve technique there)
3) 20% High Level Serve

It is useful too distinguish between the most common WT error happening at or before Big L, and the subtle WT after Big L found in the 130mph server thread.

The former is far more serious.

Chas Tennis · Dec 21, 2017

When I read carefully the Big L comments on the HiTech Tennis they define the Big L Position as including the racket face facing the side - only for the high level technique. So I guess the Big L is not a good reference checkpoint for the Waiter's Tray even though it also looks like a big inverted L.

I'd like not to spend any time on discussing lower performance serve techniques, but learning what is different might be useful for changing the old technique to a high level technique.

Raul_SJ · Dec 21, 2017

Chas Tennis said:
When I read carefully the Big L comments on the HiTech Tennis they define the Big L Position as including the racket face facing the side - only for the high level technique. So I guess the Big L is not a good reference checkpoint for the Waiter's Tray even though it also looks like a big inverted L.

I'd like not to spend any time on discussing lower performance serve techniques, but learning what is different might be useful for changing the old technique to a high level technique.

The estimate of 20% active servers having high level serve technique may be off.
I do not recall any club player serve posted here for your review as conforming to your definition of high level.

Not clear why the Big L is not a good reference checkpoint for the Waiter's Tray. Most players with WTE cannot get to Big L as in the HiTech Nalbandian pic.

HiTech is a good standard. I would dismiss any serve that does not even attempt a Big L position, such as the TomT bent arm serve. Most rec players attempt to reach a Big L position -- but the racquet face position is often wrong when they reach it.

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 22, 2017

Chas Tennis said:
...

If you choose to define WT to include TomT's technique and those like it just provide what you are using. These terms are not widely defined as far as I know. HiTech has the best information that I have found and I vote for it...

Seems to me that you have changed your view on what constitutes a WTE.

Note that I am not choosing to define WTE to include Tom T's technique. It is WTE by its very nature. Coaches have been talking about WT for decades. I believe that you are misinterpreting what Hi-TechTennis has to say about WTE. Or reading something into it that is not there. They do talk quite a bit about WTE wrt the Big L but I am not see anything on their site that indicates that a WTE serve MUST include a Big L phase. Have I missed something there?

Chas Tennis said:
When I read carefully the Big L comments on the HiTech Tennis they define the Big L Position as including the racket face facing the side - only for the high level technique. So I guess the Big L is not a good reference checkpoint for the Waiter's Tray even though it also looks like a big inverted L.

I'd like not to spend any time on discussing lower performance serve techniques, but learning what is different might be useful for changing the old technique to a high level technique.

The Tom T serve that you presented IS a sub-optimal or lower performance serve technique. WTE serves are manifested in a lot of ways -- with or w/o the Big L phase. This phase is not most important criteria for what constitutes WTE. Its primary characteristic is that racket face is open very early -- for most of the upward swing. Little or no pronation on the upward swing is employed because of this. This is what coaches have been referring to for years/decades.

Are you attempting to make a distinction between a high-level WTE and low-level WTE???

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 22, 2017

What is it called when a player serves the ball with flat face, and actually puts backspin on the ball ?

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 22, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
What is it called when a player serves the ball with flat face, and actually puts backspin on the ball ?

A backspin serve? WTE serves are most commonly flat or hit with some backspin. Not going to see a lot of topspin with WTE. Backspin is imparted by pulling the racket face down (from 12 to 6 o'clock) during the contact phase (includes the time just before and after contact).

Gazelle · Dec 22, 2017

I'm in the process of trying to fix my waiter's tray. I had filmed myself some weeks ago and noticed my wrist started to drop back a lot (no longer aligned with my forearm) and opened up my racketface. So at the moment I grip my racket quite hard to stop that from happening. I know you're supposed to be loose but for now I need it as a temporary measure to fix a bad habit.

Last match I had 4 or 5 aces in two sets, which is a lot for me (normally I average between 0 and 1). Two of them were down the T, where I always never hit aces. Average speed was quite a bit higher too, although my serves are a bit too flattish for my liking.

I'm not sure if I really fixed the waiter's tray, but because of the results I think I must be doing something better. Not sure if this helps the OP, maybe he has a different cause for his WT.

Limpinhitter · Dec 22, 2017

If you serve with a good throwing motion and a proper grip all of this yak about wte becomes moot.

Curious · Dec 22, 2017

Gazelle said:
I had filmed myself some weeks ago and noticed my wrist started to drop back a lot (no longer aligned with my forearm) and opened up my racketface.

Don't worry. Roger does the same.

Stop the video at 0.28.

Gazelle · Dec 22, 2017

Curious said:
Don't worry. Roger does the same.

Ye, the wrist falls back a little bit anyway by being loose, but not too much. And guys like Roger experience a small waiter tray (short moment where racketface is pointing upwards) at some point in their swing. Some have considered this a small technical error and explanation of why Fed doesn't hit faster serves, others say it's just normal to have that. Maybe bigger servers than Roger don't have that, I should check out Roddick or Sampras.

Anyway, what Roger does isn't nearly comparable to what I do. I have a waiter's tray even a blind granny can spot.

Curious · Dec 22, 2017

You can use a splint wrist brace to prevent it though if you're really annoyed by this like me. That bloody wrist won't be able to bend back then.

Gazelle · Dec 22, 2017

Limpinhitter said:
If you serve with a good throwing motion and a proper grip all of this yak about wte becomes moot.

IF

Gazelle · Dec 22, 2017

Curious said:
You can use a splint wrist brace to prevent it though if you're really annoyed by this like me. That bloody wrist won't be able to bend back then.

Can I still hit forehands then?

Curious · Dec 22, 2017

Gazelle said:
Can I still hit forehands then?

Of course but you will need to give up on lag.

Curious · Dec 22, 2017

Seriously, it works. I have tried it. You know what they say, fake it till you make it.

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 22, 2017

Limpinhitter said:
If you serve with a good throwing motion and a proper grip all of this yak about wte becomes moot.

Carter Capps (below) has a very good throwing motion but I'm not sure that a proper grip with this motion would not result in WTE. Ball throwing mechanics are somewhat different than racket throwing mechanics.

does-a-pitchers-foot-still-have-to-be-on-the-rubber-when-releasing-the-ball-if-so-how-can-carter-capps-pitching-be-legal-21815145.jpg

Fixing the waiter's tray serve

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