High Level Serve vs Waiter's Tray: Hand Path Difference

[Chas Tennis]

Roughly 50% of tennis players at the recreational level, say players in the NTRP 3.0 to 4.5 level, use a Waiter's Tray serving technique. Probably most that use the Waiter's Tray don't know that they do. A much smaller percentage use a technique that is like the high level serving technique used in the ATP.

Changing from a Waiter's Tray technique to a high level serving technique is believed to be very difficult after a Waiter's Tray serve has been used for a number of years.

One issue that might be an important is the path of the hitting hand.

The purpose of this thread is to compare the path of the hitting hand for Waiter's Tray Serves and High Level Serves. And especially to assemble some high speed videos that show the differences in the hand paths.

We need players with:

1) with Waiter's Tray serves
2) with high speed video camera

The difference in hand paths may be an important factor for the difficulty in rebuilding a serve once a Waiter's Tray serve is ingrained.

The next post will have some general information on the Waiter's Tray serve and will be updated.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Waiter's Tray Information (I will add links) -

1) Please supply other terms that mean the same serving technique as Waiter's Tray. A reference or picture would be useful.

2) Hi-Techtennis description that helps distinguish the Waiter's Tray technique from the high level serve.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

3) Pat Dougherty "Hammer that Serve"

Dougherty discusses the Waiter's Tray serve as Hammer That Serve. He also discusses the high level serve as the "advanced serve".

High Level Serve Information:

These are rare overhead views of tennis serves in Fuzzy Yellow Balls videos. Toly made composite pictures of these videos. This view shows the hands forward and side motion best. Look at the path of the hand in these high level serves. While we can't get the overhead view the hand path is what we'd like to understand in the Waiter's Tray serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

How to take video of the Waiter's Tray serve:

1) Frame Rate: 60 - 240 fps, 50 fps or above in many countries.

2) Shutter Speed: most cameras have automatic exposure control and direct sunlight is ideal. If your camera has a manual shutter speed adjustment 1/1000 sec or faster is very good. The position of the hand as it move forward is important.

3) Camera View Behind: Place the camera behind the server and look along the ball's trajectory as best you can. The behind camera view shows the up-down and side-to-side path of the hand best, but not the forward motion. Seeing the ball bounce is a plus.

4) Camera View from Side: The camera view from the side of the trajectory is very good for showing the up-down and forward motion of the hand.

High level serves are much easier to find than the elusive WT. If you want to search and find some other high level serves from the same camera behind view, #3, please post.

 

[Raul_SJ]

The purpose of this thread is to compare the path of the hitting hand for Waiter's Tray Serves and High Level Serves. And especially to assemble some high speed videos that show the differences in the hand paths.

We need players with:

1) with Waiter's Tray serves

I would be particularly interested in the more subtle WT of intermediate players rather than the blatant beginner's WT with minimal ESR/ISR.

1. Beginner's WT Serve: This is typically characterized by forehand grip and minimal ESR/ISR. These are very common at the 3.0-3.5 level.

2. Intermediate WT Serve: This is typically characterized by 4.0 and higher level players who are using a Continental grip and are incorporating ESR/ISR and hitting 90mph first serves, but still do not quite exhibit the characteristics found in high level serves with racket approach that is head on rather than face on.​

 

[LeeD]

Simple difference.
Waiter's Tray, the racket is pulled back and down at the start of the swing, or the trophy position.
Loop swing serve, the racket is pointing at the sky above the player's head at the start of the loop swing, or trophy position.
The racket pointing at the sky gives a 360 degree loop swing.
The racket pointing down at the ground gives only 180 degree linear swing.
And of course, shades of gray, in between sky and the ground is where most waiter's tray serves start their swing from.
Do not lay the wrist back. The loop swing does it for you.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I would be particularly interested in the more subtle WT of intermediate players rather than the blatant beginner's WT with minimal ESR/ISR.

1. Beginner's WT Serve: This is typically characterized by forehand grip and minimal ESR/ISR. These are very common at the 3.0-3.5 level.

2. Intermediate WT Serve: This is typically characterized by 4.0 and higher level players who are using a Continental grip and are incorporating ESR/ISR and hitting 90mph first serves, but still do not quite exhibit the characteristics found in high level serves with racket approach that is head on rather than face on.​

For this thread let's keep it simple and get the hand path corresponding to the HiTechtennis webpage picture linked above.

If you want the hand path of Bigservesofthands serve type WT/ISR Type #23 hybrid just look at the BSSH and Lisicki video.

 

[LeeD]

Is the path of the hand different?
Or is the difference the twisting loop motion of the hand on a high level serve, vs the direct motion of the hand from takeback to impact of the WT?

 

[Raul_SJ]

For this thread let's keep it simple and get the hand path corresponding to the HiTechtennis webpage picture linked above.

WT from from the hi-tech site. It looks like he's using forehand grip?...And laying the wrist back and opening up the face early. What are we trying to ascertain with regard to the "hand path" to these types of players? Using the proper grip and employing ESR/ISR almost always resolves much of the WT issue for these players...

 

[Chas Tennis]

Is the path of the hand different?
Or is the difference the twisting loop motion of the hand on a high level serve, vs the direct motion of the hand from takeback to impact of the WT?

See picture I added to post #2.

The final path to impact the ball goes to the right on a high level serve.

It is not the same for the WT. Looking for video evidence on this subject.

(I wanted to start the thread with 3 posts instead of one long post. I should have composed each post in Word.)

 

[Chas Tennis]

What are we trying to ascertain with regard to the "hand path" to these types of players? Using the proper grip and employing ESR/ISR almost always resolves much of the WT issue for these players...

The hand goes more toward the ball in the direction of the trajectory for a WT. Rather than discuss this with words, let's go after targeted videos to answer the question. Read the first three posts that will be updated with more information. See the picture I added to post #2.

Your gif of the Bigservesofthands & Lisicki video is what we want to see in videos - but that serve is not a typical WT. Also, the camera is not well aligned for Lisicki.

For a high level serve, the hand travels to the right at 45+/- d. or so for a flat serve.

For a Waiter's Tray serve, the hand travels to the right at ? degrees for a flat serve.

Let's make some videos.

 

[LeeD]

The hand goes more toward the ball in the direction of the trajectory for a WT. Rather than discuss this with words, let's go after targeted videos to answer the question. Read the first three posts that will be updated with more information. See the picture I added to post #2. Your gif of the Bigservesofthands video is what we want to see in videos - but that serve is not a typical WT.

For a high level serve the hand travels to the right at 45+/- d. or so for a flat serve.

For a Waiter's Tray serve the hand travels to the right at ? degrees for a flat serve.

Let's make some videos.

I question your statement of "45 degees (right or left, depending on player) + or - some amount.
That angle could include some higher level waiter's tray serves.
Video is not final proof, but more just THAT example of use.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I question your statement of "45 degees (right or left, depending on player) + or - some amount.
That angle could include some higher level waiter's tray serves.
Video is not final proof, but more just THAT example of use.

Off topic......

 

[LeeD]

No, YOU are off topic.
To pretend you are an expert just because you looked at a few videos.

 

[Fintft]

Simple difference.
Waiter's Tray, the racket is pulled back and down at the start of the swing, or the trophy position.
Loop swing serve, the racket is pointing at the sky above the player's head at the start of the loop swing, or trophy position.
The racket pointing at the sky gives a 360 degree loop swing.
The racket pointing down at the ground gives only 180 degree linear swing.
And of course, shades of gray, in between sky and the ground is where most waiter's tray serves start their swing from.
Do not lay the wrist back. The loop swing does it for you.

I think this is a nice simplification of the differences.

 

[GuyClinch]

Don't think hand path is that relevant or useful.. ESR or elbow path is more what we should look at..

Waiter's tray gets minimal ESR and the elbow path is straight and forward..

I really think this guys compilation is really useful for seeing various ways of how not to to serve..

He even has slow motion - and best of all its not just a teaching pro imitating how amateurs serve - its real amateurs. The only decent server really in here is #9. Everyone else has their elbow staying on level and going forward - or too little ESR/ISR - and various other issues like horrendous use of legs - foot faults and so on. Heh.

A good serve should feature elbow moving up and out - and lots of ESR.. Sadly most people are not flexible enough for this - and sorry LeeD - it does matter.

Not saying its my own idea or anything - but if you manage to move your elbow up and out like Roddick does - you cannot have a waiters serve IMHO..

But even Federer doesn't have Roddick like flexibility so the movement is less dramatic..

 

[bigservesofthands]

Don't think hand path is that relevant or useful.. ESR or elbow path is more what we should look at..

Waiter's tray gets minimal ESR and the elbow path is straight and forward..

A good serve should feature elbow moving up and out - and lots of ESR.. Sadly most people are not flexible enough for this - and sorry LeeD - it does matter.

Not saying its my own idea or anything - but if you manage to move your elbow up and out like Roddick does - you cannot have a waiters serve IMHO..

But even Federer doesn't have Roddick like flexibility so the movement is less dramatic..

Yes looking at elbow path or ESR is the way to go.

But I don't fully agree with the analysis in that video. Not everybody does exaggerated up and down. Some get the ESR stretch through a much bigger rotational component and not very much shoulder over shoulder up down component and have fairly horizontal swing loops and serve nearly as big as Roddick. For instance Wawrinka

or Lopez

Kyrgios doesn't have a lot of up down either

What matters I think is the amount of ESR angle that you get when compared to the plane of your body. 15 to 20 degrees past vertical seems to be the norm. Most the amateur servers don't even seem to attempt to get to vertical let alone past vertical.

My serve without leg drive is mostly core rotation and front leg push off powered like a base ball pitcher. So the maximum ESR happens much later in the swing loop like in a pitching motion. That is why I don't think racquet drops need to straight up and down they can be extended out like mine. But studying the motion of the elbow and the ESR angle does give one an idea of the amount of ESR get stored before the extension starts. As you can see I get comparable ESR stretches to these high level servers.

I am also able to do a more traditional up/down motion with more shoulder over shoulder motion now that lets me attack more the box on first serves, rather than mostly aiming close to the service lines that I had to do before with the more horizontal motion. But I do throw in this motion serves as a change up from time to time. The low bouncing high pace really throws people off.

 

[bigservesofthands]

This makes the ESR angle comparison even more clear

Kyrgios maybe has 10 degrees more ESR stretch than me when the butt cap drive towards the ball starts for both of us.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The last part of the hand path is what the OP would like to understand.

Using a protractor, the hitting hand has a path relative to the baseline of -

1) Slice 50°

2) Flat 52°

3) Kick 30°

This Bigservesofthands serve has a much more direct final path to the ball. Click bottom right to expand.

What is needed are videos of Waiter's Tray serves.

 

[bigservesofthands]

The last part of the hand path is what the OP would like to understand.

Using a protractor, the hitting hand has a path relative to the baseline of -

1) Slice 50°

2) Flat 52°

3) Kick 30°

This Bigservesofthands serve has a much more direct final path to the ball. Click bottom right to expand.

What is needed are videos of Waiter's Tray serves.

It appears to me that high level servers hit with more top spin on flats than me. You can see that Lisicki's serve bounces higher than mine even though mine gets there faster. So the angled approach suggests an attempt at top spin. I guess I exaggerate everything. Mostly straight on for flats and my current kicks are nearly a parallel swing path to the baseline with an angle of approach closer to 80 degrees.

 

[dunlop_fort_knox]

Roughly 50% of tennis players at the recreational level, say players in the NTRP 3.0 to 4.5 level, use a Waiter's Tray serving technique. Probably most that use the Waiter's Tray don't know that they do. A much smaller percentage use a technique that is like the high level serving technique used in the ATP.

Changing from a Waiter's Tray technique to a high level serving technique is believed to be very difficult after a Waiter's Tray serve has been used for a number of years.

One issue that might be an important is the path of the hitting hand.

The purpose of this thread is to compare the path of the hitting hand for Waiter's Tray Serves and High Level Serves. And especially to assemble some high speed videos that show the differences in the hand paths.

We need players with:

1) with Waiter's Tray serves
2) with high speed video camera

The difference in hand paths may be an important factor for the difficulty in rebuilding a serve once a Waiter's Tray serve is ingrained.

The next post will have some general information on the Waiter's Tray serve and will be updated.

biggest problem for those with WT serve motion is the raquet comes up too soon into so called trophy position. take a look a kyrgios serve. the tip of hoop is actually pointed straight down when he has tossing arm extended.

 

[GuyClinch]

biggest problem for those with WT serve motion is the raquet comes up too soon into so called trophy position. take a look a kyrgios serve. the tip of hoop is actually pointed straight down when he has tossing arm extended.

That's a common difference - not the biggest problem. You can serve just fine starting in the trophy position.. It won't be your best serve - but that doesn't make it a waiter's tray..



A guy like BSH uses more of an early pronation - still gets ESR and still uses a kind of throwing motion where he elbow gets up some..not a good model if we want to understand waiter's tray.


Here is another waiters serve example..

Go to 2:31 in this video..to save your eyes..

This is very close to what the serve doctor calls the 'long arm" serve for obvious reasons. Notice lack of ESR and how the elbow is moving mostly forward and not up..
It's a little different from the kind of bent arm waiter's tray serve in which you get this 'drop' with the racquet pointing straight back..

In tennis there are lots of ways to do things wrong - but only a few ways to do it right.

I do suppose that if you could get aerial views of a waiters tray serve whether the bent arm shovel or the long arm (like in video shown above) the hand path would be more direct - but I don't think that's a key to fixing/changing waiter tray serves.

Very typical 3.5 women here IMHO - good video. Looks approx. like an unathletic 3.0 man.

 

[Chas Tennis]

For example only -

I estimate that I've analyzed 50+ poster's serves with Waiter's Tray. These WT serves have many different camera viewing angles.

This one is interesting but it is useless for this thread because the camera was not aligned well enough to look along the ball's trajectory. I think that we may be seeing how this server with a Waiter's Tray serve is hitting a slice. (Video no longer available.)

1) before impact______2) just after impact__________3) ball moving away to left on trajectory.

How much more or less does the hand move to the right for a WT compared to the high level serve?

The tree branches in the background give a useful reference for the hand motion. The wrist stays the same side-to-side relative to the tree branches in the background. I believe that the wrist is moving directly away from the camera, but can't say how directly toward the ball it is moving.

From this behind camera view, in frame #2, just after impact, the forearm-to-racket angle of this serve is about 175° (180° is straight). Probably at impact the high level serve has a smaller forearm-to-wrist angle than the WT? 155°? Does that forearm-to-racket angle account for the hand path tracking more to the right for the high level serve? The type of serve is important for comparisons.

This is a Toly composite picture. It shows the hand path and the trajectory.

Forearm-to-racket angle at impact as shown by the behind camera view, 150°.

But there are no videos, 60 fps & above, of Waiter's Tray serves with the camera viewing from behind looking along the trajectory.