Prince Original Graphite ( POG ) Mid and OS versions

Sanglier · Mar 8, 2018

graycrait said:
Sanglier, do have any idea of how many different models/brands and for how long Grafalloy produced rackets?

Based on different combinations of grommets, grip lengths, butt caps, text decals, I have counted at least 17 cosmetic (and not-purely-cosmetic) variants of the one-stripe POG, made by 3 US contractors plus Kunnan. There "may" have been a couple more feature combinations, but so far I have not seen them on the 110 model, so I can't say for sure whether they exist or not. For instance, I have seen 1982 copy-righted text box decals on the "Boron", but not yet on the POG 110.

Grafalloy was the main POG producer between late 1979 and 1983, during which it also contracted for Wilson and (briefly) Pro Group. Prince actually acquired Grafalloy in 1983, but decided to discontinue the racquet production operation there and have everything made in Taiwan from then on, coinciding (or perhaps it's not a pure coincidence) with Wilson's decision to move their production to St Vincent.

Edit: I read your question again, and realized that only the second paragraph of my answer actually applies to what you were asking. The POGs and Wilsons accounted for the vast majority of Grafalloy's racquet production output. Basically, all non-braided Wilson graphite frames were made by Grafalloy prior to 1983. The sole exception was the Sting Mid, which was made in Taiwan from the get-go.

graycrait · Mar 8, 2018

Sanglier said:
Grafalloy was the main POG producer between late 1979 and 1983,

I hope you writing all this down in some format. Absolutely fascinating.

Sanglier said:
Wilson's decision to move their production to St Vincent.

So, when Wilson went from St Vincent to Taiwan did Wilson yet again go to the Prince producers who had been in Taiwan for some time by then?

Sanglier · Mar 8, 2018

graycrait said:
I hope you writing all this down in some format. Absolutely fascinating.

So, when Wilson went from St Vincent to Taiwan did Wilson yet again go to the Prince producers who had been in Taiwan for some time by then?

I've been "on the verge" of finishing my write-up on the birth of graphite racquets for two years now, as some members here know, mainly focusing on the role of US producers, but kept getting pulled away by other pressing matters. It has become an embarrassment, as quite a few people helped me in the effort materially, with the expectation that I would produce something worthy of their time and assistance. On the plus side, the repeated delays have allowed me to make a few small discoveries, flesh out some details, and correct several significant mistakes, but I need to draw a line under this project and be done with it!

Through the 1980s, I believe Prince relied exclusively on Kunnan to produce their tennis racquets (while Bonny also manufactured for Prince, I've not been able to determine whether they only made badminton racquets for them or if they also produced some of the tennis frames, as they subcontracted for Kunnan as well). Wilson always had multiple contractors and knew how to get the most out of them, going back to the pre-graphite era, when many Wilson wooden frames were produced by Donnay. Even their trademark braided frame had its origin elsewhere. Sanhosun was the first and most prominent graphite frame supplier for Wilson in Taiwan.

By the time Wilson was winding down its operation in St Vincent in 1989, several major Taiwanese makers were already shifting their production to mainland China. People today may feel there is a difference between Taiwanese- and Chinese-made frames, but this is more psychological than material, as all of those early Chinese racquet factories were Taiwanese operations, set up and run by the same people, using the same equipment, and following the same protocol as when production was based on the island. I have not really looked into any of these manufacturers, because the era I am interested in (when graphite racquets were made in the US, specifically in California) came to an anticlimactic end around 1987, when the last surviving makers here finally said 'no más'!

jxs653 · Mar 11, 2018

Ultra 2 said:
So I just picked these up.. brand spanking new. are these the very first POGs ever made? Doesn’t have the usual sticker i’m used to seeing. Just says made in USA.

Too bad they’re not 90.

They look beautiful. Too bad that you feel too bad they're not 90. Is it just me but as long as POG is concerned I always felt oversize is better than mid.

Ultra 2 · Mar 11, 2018

No, I think it’s a preferential thing.. if I recall there were more people using 110s than the 90s back in the day. I learned tennis with a standard sized racquet so that’s probably why I use the the 90s. That and I was a serve and volley player.

jxs653 · Mar 12, 2018

Of course. I should have used "preferable" instead of "better."

dmcb101 · Mar 30, 2018

Hello all. Just an update, as I posted a long will back with my bumperless single stripe POG OS. I recently acquired an interesting frame in this family, the POG Longbody 107. This essentially is the POG Longbody with a 107 head size. From what I have gathered, this was a Japan only release, but don't quote me on that. It has a bit more pop than my single stripe POG OS as it has that extra 1 inch in length, and the hoop is a bit stiffer than my single stripe.

I also have a prince Michael Chang Longbody OS and compared to that, the POG Longbody 107 is not as powerful, but had better feel. Does anyone else have any experience with this frame?

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Prg3k · Apr 2, 2018

I'm demoing the re-release of the Graphite 107 soon. I have a 1983 single stripe that I love (grew up playing w 107 Radicals) but the grip is too big. I like the whippiness of the Prince compared to the 90's Radicals I used.

dmcb101 · Apr 2, 2018

I found the later versions to be less substantial in the hoop; they need weight. Easy to swing no doubt, but they lack heft especially with the beam width.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Prg3k · Apr 2, 2018

That's interesting. I hope I like the feel of the newer sticks bc I hate the idea of having to piece together a quiver from flea bay.

dmcb101 · Apr 2, 2018

There are tons out there, so they would not be hard to find

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

dnguyen · May 2, 2018

Anyone know the specs for the grommet-less/bumperless POG with one stripe, USA made?

ron schaap · May 9, 2018

Ultra 2 said:
So I just picked these up.. brand spanking new. are these the very first POGs ever made? Doesn’t have the usual sticker i’m used to seeing. Just says made in USA.

Too bad they’re not 90.

if you don't get used to them, than I don't mind if you send them to me.
Honestly, I think it's an ego thing.

tc76 · May 18, 2018

Hi,

I just came across another POG OS that I obviously had to pick up and was wondering if I could get confirmation of the model/origin. It’s a single stripe model, grommetless and bumperless (though the last owner put it some individual grommets at the top and the throat), has no writing or stickers on the sides and has a thinner beam than my other POGs and PCGs.

Also, the grip is a bit shorter than my current PCG, with a tapered top. The buttcap doesn’t have the typical “P”, but instead has a series of numbers in a round circle (perhaps missing a sticker). The numbers are 5811554 and seem to be engraved/lasered by hand.

Based on what I’ve seen elsewhere in the thread, would I be correct in assuming this is a Graffaloy POG1 from circa 1980-1981? And could anyone point me to a post that would have more relevant info about this specific model?

Sanglier · May 18, 2018

tc76 said:
would I be correct in assuming this is a Graffaloy POG1 from circa 1980-1981?

Yes, you would. Your Grafalloy was manufactured in 1981. It once had a laminated butt cap sticker with a golden "P" on a black field. The practice of engraving serial numbers on the butt cap was carried over from Fansteel (which used an enigmatic alpha-numerical system, distinct from the straightforward numbering system adopted by Grafalloy). This labor-intensive step was done away with after the introduction of the raised-P butt cap in late '81.

o3player · Jul 7, 2018

I'm searching for grommets/bumpers for my 5 Pog's mid plusses (93 sqi, 1987 model). It seems that they are very hard to find nowadays. Anyone know where I might be able buy these? I am located in the Netherlands (Europe).

dak95_00 · Jul 8, 2018

Bad news: They’re not manufactured anymore and the only online retailer wants $100/set. You can send klipperusa an email and ask them.

After that, maybe you’ll get lucky and find some old stringer with a stash of grommets.

Your last options are tubing, individual grommets, and head protection tape. I sold me last sets a year or two ago. I highly doubt they’ll ever be produced again.

graycrait · Jul 8, 2018

o3player said:
I'm searching for grommets/bumpers for my 5 Pog's mid plusses (93 sqi, 1987 model).

Like @dak95_00 said tubing, Fittex or cut up old or other grommet sets. I replaced 14 grommets on a recently acquired POG 4 stripe with Fittex individual grommets. Doesn't look weird and didn't take that long. I even put a dab of super glue on each grommet.

coachrick · Jul 8, 2018

graycrait said:
Like @dak95_00 said tubing, Fittex or cut up old or other grommet sets. I replaced 14 grommets on a recently acquired POG 4 stripe with Fittex individual grommets. Doesn't look weird and didn't take that long. I even put a dab of super glue on each grommet.

Would likely need some head protection tape to offset the weight difference, yes? Individual grommets vs bumper guard would be a noticeable change in balance, I reckon.(In the mids that o3player mentioned)

michael valek · Jul 9, 2018

Btw am thinking of letting my 6 tour versions go. Contact me if anyone wants before I put them in classifieds

Plainsman83 · Jul 12, 2018

Thank you everyone for the great information in this thread. I played with the Grafalloy made no grommet version starting in 1981 when I was 16 with a lot of success. I managed to snag two of them for half price at a local sporting goods store back then which was the only way my parents could afford them at the time. They tended to snap once a year in the same place near the throat (I strung them at 80 lbs) but Prince in those days was great about replacing them. When the long grip grommet version came out and I had no more of the no grommet ones it just wasn't the same and I switched with bad results to the first of the Wilson Profiles (biggest mistake of my tennis life).

Anyway, imagine my surprise last night when a friend gave me a no grommet, no bumper, short tapered handle made in the US POG for free since he was giving up tennis due to serious arm problems and it had been sitting under his bed gathering dust. Decent condition, but too small of a grip. I will clean it up, put a new leather grip on it and give it a swing. Can't wait to feel like a teenager again

jxs653 · Jul 13, 2018

Plainsman83 · Jul 21, 2018

I played with the Grafalloy POG I mentioned earlier for the first time this morning. It was immediately comfortable (despite the mystery strings which appear to be of good quality) and I was hitting just like I do with my normal Graphene XT Prestige Pro. I did notice that my slice and flat backhands had a bit more pop, probably due to the bigger head. The only advantage to the newer frames is that you get some more freebies on shots where you are not ideally positioned. I played a set with the POG and one with the Prestige and had no trouble transitioning. Maybe it is due to almost 40 year old muscle memory from using the POG as a teenager. Having now hit with a number of older frames I am convinced that most of time we switch racquets for newer ones because we want to, not because we have to.

sma1001 · Jul 22, 2018

I have just picked up a recent version of the POG OS. My first thought was: that log had a child.

djNEiGht · Aug 15, 2018

Has anyone seen/tried/know of the Esquire Saturn EM717 MP POG?

eman resu · Aug 21, 2018

A few years after selling my beloved POG3, I got myself a POG4, hoping it will be easier to swing.
The former weighted 368g strung with leather and overgrip, 6pts HL. This 4 striped 110 has already reached 338g unstrung (with yonex hisoft grip + yonex overgrip), so my shoulders should better be ready! Balance is 31cm.

I'll report back after I get to play a bit with it.

djNEiGht · Aug 21, 2018

djNEiGht said:
Has anyone seen/tried/know of the Esquire Saturn EM717 MP POG?

***crickets***

djNEiGht · Aug 21, 2018

eman resu said:
A few years after selling my beloved POG3, I got myself a POG4, hoping it will be easier to swing.
The former weighted 368g strung with leather and overgrip, 6pts HL. This 4 striped 110 has already reached 338g unstrung (with yonex hisoft grip + yonex overgrip), so my shoulders should better be ready! Balance is 31cm.

I'll report back after I get to play a bit with it.

This I hope is one I'll have for years to come...granted I think I want to go to a smaller grip.

eman resu · Aug 22, 2018

eman resu said:
A few years after selling my beloved POG3, I got myself a POG4, hoping it will be easier to swing.
The former weighted 368g strung with leather and overgrip, 6pts HL. This 4 striped 110 has already reached 338g unstrung (with yonex hisoft grip + yonex overgrip), so my shoulders should better be ready! Balance is 31cm.

I'll report back after I get to play a bit with it.

wow, didn't see that coming. 363g strung with leather+OG. Basically the same the old POG3 I had (368g). How did you people found those 346g specs?

jonestim · Aug 22, 2018

eman resu said:
How did you people found those 346g specs?

Classic Graphite (2014) version. I have one that I had to ADD lead to in order to get 346 strung.

Sanglier · Aug 22, 2018

djNEiGht said:
Has anyone seen/tried/know of the Esquire Saturn EM717 MP POG?

This is not a POG clone. Esquire was a Korean outfit. They even tried to trademark their brand in the US in the early '90s and were promptly challenged in court (presumably by the magazine publisher, whose logo their faithfully reproduced for some ill-advised reason), forcing them to abandon the effort.

South Korea had its own racquet-production industry, which is largely overlooked today because it was dwarfed by the ones in Taiwan and Japan. While the Taiwanese dominated the OEM market, the Koreans followed the Japanese model and focused on developing their indigenous brands (Hanil, Nassau, Korex, etc.). They were certainly not above incorporating elements of other people's successful designs into their products, but from what I have seen so far, nothing they made in the '80s and '90s can be described as a faithful copy of an existing model from a major vendor. This "Saturn" is no exception.

djNEiGht · Aug 22, 2018

Sanglier said:
This is not a POG clone. Esquire was a Korean outfit. They even tried to trademark their brand in the US in the early '90s and were promptly challenged in court (presumably by the magazine publisher, whose logo their faithfully reproduced for some ill-advised reason), forcing them to abandon the effort.

South Korea had its own racquet-production industry, which is largely overlooked today because it was dwarfed by the ones in Taiwan and Japan. While the Taiwanese dominated the OEM market, the Koreans followed the Japanese model and focused on developing their indigenous brands (Hanil, Nassau, Korex, etc.). They were certainly not above incorporating elements of other people's successful designs into their products, but from what I have seen so far, nothing they made in the '80s and '90s can be described as a faithful copy of an existing model from a major vendor. This "Saturn" is no exception.

thanks for the insight.

eman resu · Aug 23, 2018

jonestim said:
Classic Graphite (2014) version. I have one that I had to ADD lead to in order to get 346 strung.

I wish I had one of those... The PCG100LB I use is customized to 346g strung. The strings snapped during a match today, so I had no choice but to use my new POG OS. It felt like a true 363g oversized racquet, but it was fun. Great plowthrough led to easy power on serves, and it's well balanced, so nothing too absurd for me to use. I missed the extended length on running groundstrokes, however, so I'll stick to the LB as my plan A.

jonestim · Aug 23, 2018

eman resu said:
I wish I had one of those... The PCG100LB I use is customized to 346g strung. The strings snapped during a match today, so I had no choice but to use my new POG OS. It felt like a true 363g oversized racquet, but it was fun. Great plowthrough led to easy power on serves, and it's well balanced, so nothing too absurd for me to use. I missed the extended length on running groundstrokes, however, so I'll stick to the LB as my plan A.

I sold my LBs a couple years ago - and now regret it. I had a matched pair and 5 sets of grommets. Ugh. I was switching back and forth between my LBs, Warriors and Tour 100Ps, so my game was not improving. In order to commit to one racquet for an extended time I sold most of my racquets (including some Diablo Mids that I also wish I had back).

This weekend I pulled out my POG OS after playing a set with my Phantom 93p. The 107 made it easier to get depth and I thought I was hitting better with it. My opponent is was someone I hit with regularly with and we are constantly giving each other feedback on what the other is doing well, and not. He said he would much rather hit against me using the 107 than the 93p. 93p requires me to be more on the gas and hits a ball that he was struggling with. 93p ball drove through the court - a "heavy ball" - and 107 sits up a bit. 93p also ranks up with the LB as one of the best serving racquets I have used.

eman resu · Aug 23, 2018

Some pics of my POGs: 3 Classic Longbodies, a Graphite 110 (POG4) and a pair of Diablos MP as a bonus

graycrait · Aug 27, 2018

I probably sound like a broken record but I am personally convinced that the POG OS is a physical therapy device that allows me to play tennis good enough. I replace the leather grips with light synthetic grip, one over grip, a dampener and Solinco Outlast 16 x PSGD (red) 16 at 58/65lbs. Neither the PK 7G or Head MGRD OS gives me the same level of feel/play, etc. Blade 104 doesn't do it for me either and I have had 3 versions of that one. Sadly it seems everytime I try and go lighter and stiffer I end up with an "arm issue." Yeah, technique, conditioning, etc, etc, but those issues don't crop up for me with the POG. I'm nudging the halfway point between 60 & 70 so I am going to stick with what seems to allow me to play injury free.

WestboroChe · Aug 27, 2018

Hey all,

I am looking at a racquet that is a Prince Graphite Tour Midsize (93). It looks to be a little newer than the classic POGs that we all pine for as it has the power level rating of 600 printed on it. However it still has the overall look of the POG.

So my question is: does anyone here knows if this plays similar to the classic POG mids or is this a case of the company rolling out a product that just tries to use the old name to promote itself?

graycrait · Aug 27, 2018

@WestboroChe,
It this is the racket you are talking about then it plays like any POG Mid 90 (93).

I do think it plays a bit stiffer than a 4-stripe but that may be because of age & use as the 1 & 4 stripes are decades older. Although I suspect material and manufaturing methods might be bit different over the decades, but @Sanglier would be the one to ask.

I have 2 Tours, 2 1-stripes and 4 4-stripe POG Midplus 90/Tour (93). They all play close enough from one to the other I can string them up the same and get "after it" with no issues.

I'm looking forward to obtaining a Phantom 93P and one of the new POG 107s once the used market price hits my wallet price point.

shamaho · Aug 27, 2018

Why? Why? Why? You already know that POG OS works for you...

graycrait said:
@WestboroChe,
It this is the racket you are talking about then it plays like any POG Mid 90 (93).

I do think it plays a bit stiffer than a 4-stripe but that may be because of age & use as the 1 & 4 stripes are decades older. Although I suspect material and manufaturing methods might be bit different over the decades, but @Sanglier would be the one to ask.

I have 2 Tours, 2 1-stripes and 4 4-stripe POG Midplus 90/Tour (93). They all play close enough from one to the other I can string them up the same and get "after it" with no issues.

I'm looking forward to obtaining a Phantom 93P and one of the new POG 107s once the used market price hits my wallet price point.

Sent from my P027 using Tapatalk

graycrait · Aug 27, 2018

shamaho said:
Why? Why? Why? You already know that POG OS works for you...

Somedays I feel like a 50 yr old

That is why I play with the "tiny" headed POG - occassionally.

WestboroChe · Aug 27, 2018

graycrait said:
@WestboroChe,
It this is the racket you are talking about then it plays like any POG Mid 90 (93).

I do think it plays a bit stiffer than a 4-stripe but that may be because of age & use as the 1 & 4 stripes are decades older. Although I suspect material and manufaturing methods might be bit different over the decades, but @Sanglier would be the one to ask.

I have 2 Tours, 2 1-stripes and 4 4-stripe POG Midplus 90/Tour (93). They all play close enough from one to the other I can string them up the same and get "after it" with no issues.

I'm looking forward to obtaining a Phantom 93P and one of the new POG 107s once the used market price hits my wallet price point.

Thanks mate. I think I’m going to buy it.

o3player · Sep 25, 2018

For those who are interested, i'm selling 8 of my POG's, they are in the for sale section.

makinao · Sep 30, 2018

Question. Is there a mod for 4-stripe and recent POGs to make it feel like a grommetless 1-stripe? I've always felt the formers are too muted compared to the latter.

jxs653 · Sep 30, 2018

@makinao. I always felt that the grommetless version has more precise and sharper feel to it than the rest of the bunch and it is because it has thinner beam. And the beam width is impossible to modify. Could be just me though.

makinao · Oct 11, 2018

jxs653 said:
@makinao. I always felt that the grommetless version has more precise and sharper feel to it than the rest of the bunch and it is because it has thinner beam. And the beam width is impossible to modify. Could be just me though.

OK.

Next question. How different is the feel of the 1-stripe WITHOUT grommet strip and head bumper vs the 1-stripe WITH grommet strip and head bumper?

I'm asking because there's someone selling a pair of the latter near me, but the only 1-stripe I've used and love is the former.

graycrait · Oct 21, 2018

As far as 80's Prince Mids I have 6 or so POG 90s, 1 Specturum Comp 90 and 2 Power Pro 90s. I have one Power Flex 90 but that thing is a bit too "noodly" for me. Plus I have a couple of the more recently released POG Mid "Tours." I tossed the Mono in the pic just because I think it plays closer to a mid than an OS even though it is a later vintage. Are there other Prince Mids (90/93) not mentioned that I need to try out besides the new 93P? I am stringing at least one each of the ones I have on hand with Ash Kev/Zyex Pro so I can use them as "fire and forget" rackets where if I don't feel like playing with them they can hang on the wall for 6 months till their next play date. I plan on using the 4 pictured during indoor winter league play with POG OS available when I feel "run down" and need more racket head real estate.

PSC85 · Oct 21, 2018

graycrait said:
As far as 80's Prince Mids I have 6 or so POG 90s, 1 Specturum Comp 90 and 2 Power Pro 90s. I have one Power Flex 90 but that thing is a bit too "noodly" for me. Plus I have a couple of the more recently released POG Mid "Tours." I tossed the Mono in the pic just because I think it plays closer to a mid than an OS even though it is a later vintage. Are there other Prince Mids (90/93) not mentioned that I need to try out besides the new 93P? I am stringing at least one each of the ones I have on hand with Ash Kev/Zyex Pro so I can use them as "fire and forget" rackets where if I don't feel like playing with them they can hang on the wall for 6 months till their next play date. I plan on using the 4 pictured during indoor winter league play with POG OS available when I feel "run down" and need more racket head real estate.

How does the spectrum comp fare against POG of the same hesdsize or just in general?

graycrait · Oct 21, 2018

I know this is going to sound like sacrilege but I think the Spectrum Comp 90 plays "nicer" than both the Power Pro and POG 4 stripe. I may be wrong and often am but the Comp feels in between the POG 90 (stiffer) and the Power Pro 90 (flexier). The rackets weigh (all 4 strung with Ash Kev/Zyex): Comp 344, PP 344, POG 343, Mono - 345.

I had 16 G Tour Bite in both the Power Pro 90 and the Spectrum Comp 90 yesterday and went and hit some serves. I also had along a POG 90 4 striper strung with 16g Ash Kev x 17g Zyex (both fully prestretched with my winch) strung at 65/55. Today I cut out the TB in the two rackets so strung and strung both up with prestretched 16g Ash Kev x 17g Zyex at 65/55. I'll have a better read when I play some 4.0 guys tomorrow night.

The Mono is also strung with Ash Kev x Zyex. My other POG 90s are strung with a variety of stuff: fullbed Origin, Origin/RPM, Outlast/PSGD, Zyex/RPM, and another with Ash Kev x Zyex. My POG OSs are strung with a variety of setups as well including a Spectrum Comp 110 (107). I think I like the 4-stripe POG OS over the Spectrum Comp OS.

BlueB · Oct 21, 2018

Actually I agree, the Comp and Tri-Comp feel better then POG 90. However, they were both heavier and more SW then my 4-stripe POG, and that's the part I didnt like.
I've never had them in OS version.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

PBODY99 · Oct 21, 2018

@PSC85

My Spectrum Comp 90,Yellow pj; worked better for my game than the POG 90 when they were released.
The 93 P I demoed this week was a little under powered for my game as it came with full poly,
Had released a 18 main "90" I think they would have really sold BITD as PSG/df didnot last long for the big hitter in tHAT FRAME.

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