Bigservesofthands classification of the various stroke styles that have evolved or likely to evolve
- Thread starter bigservesofthands
- Start date
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Do you really think BSSH would make a return even if Fed served right to his forehand. Would be a really, really big deal if he makes Fed hit anything other than the easiest of first volleys (don't think Fed would waste his time at the baseline; hope serve & volley is not cheating as per the BSSH rules of tennis).
The purpose of pomo is 1st strike off any ball. He claims he can hit winners off anything. He has ballet toe protectors to prove it. I don't get it. But that is what he actually said. Something to do with torque of the big toe.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
coolschreiber
Hall of Fame
How will Fedr serve to PoPo? He's on a different planet. Is interplanetary travel possible now?
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Strokes (bio-mechanical improvement and their understanding) have in the past lagged improvements in the equipment that precipitated them in the first place. Not just in tennis but in all of sport.
I plan to change the order of things a bit.
Gentlepeople, Post-post-modern (PoPoMo) has arrived!
PoPoMo has arrived before equipment (materials, manufacturing processes, racquets, string beds ....) that can showcase it in its full glory have made their debuts.
The good thing about PoPoMo is that it can for most part be stacked up on PoMo providing (multiplicative in a few cases and additive in most cases) improvements to it. I call this unbeatable combination Po2Mo.
PoPoMo can also be used standalone to provide extremely offensive options where none had existed before (like when there is no time to setup for PoMo) or to neutralize PoMo.
Here are a few exercises you can do (thanks to Rick Smith Jr) to get ready and be in shape for PoPoMo when I decide to finally unveil it.
Be careful! It took Rick over 15 years and two Tommy Johns to get here (90+ mph)
But as this guy shows with dedication you can master PoPoMo type movements at any age.
Your ceiling might be one celery stick but that is good enough to hit through most of the tennis population, especially if you add a bit of PoMo to it.
I will clarify the biomechanics of PoPoMo in later posts.
I plan to change the order of things a bit.
Gentlepeople, Post-post-modern (PoPoMo) has arrived!
PoPoMo has arrived before equipment (materials, manufacturing processes, racquets, string beds ....) that can showcase it in its full glory have made their debuts.
The good thing about PoPoMo is that it can for most part be stacked up on PoMo providing (multiplicative in a few cases and additive in most cases) improvements to it. I call this unbeatable combination Po2Mo.
PoPoMo can also be used standalone to provide extremely offensive options where none had existed before (like when there is no time to setup for PoMo) or to neutralize PoMo.
Here are a few exercises you can do (thanks to Rick Smith Jr) to get ready and be in shape for PoPoMo when I decide to finally unveil it.
Be careful! It took Rick over 15 years and two Tommy Johns to get here (90+ mph)
But as this guy shows with dedication you can master PoPoMo type movements at any age.
Your ceiling might be one celery stick but that is good enough to hit through most of the tennis population, especially if you add a bit of PoMo to it.
I will clarify the biomechanics of PoPoMo in later posts.
D
Deleted member 754093
Guest
Subscribed
Saul Goode
Semi-Pro
Oh boy
Mainsacross
Semi-Pro
Has Clay Season got you down?
Have no fear,
Pomo is here:
A long-lost clown
To turn that frown upside down.
POMO POMO POMO POMO!
Just in time for the dog days of summer,
To erase the memory of Zverev v Kohlshreiber,
And your favorite players losing to Rafa
(What a bummer).
POMO POMO POMO POMO!
Have no fear,
Pomo is here:
A long-lost clown
To turn that frown upside down.
POMO POMO POMO POMO!
Just in time for the dog days of summer,
To erase the memory of Zverev v Kohlshreiber,
And your favorite players losing to Rafa
(What a bummer).
POMO POMO POMO POMO!
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Will there be special POMO training cards?Strokes (bio-mechanical improvement and their understanding) have in the past lagged improvements in the equipment that precipitated them in the first place. Not just in tennis but in all of sport.
I plan to change the order of things a bit.
Gentlepeople, Post-post-modern (PoPoMo) has arrived!
PoPoMo has arrived before equipment (materials, manufacturing processes, racquets, string beds ....) that can showcase it in its full glory have made their debuts.
The good thing about PoPoMo is that it can for most part be stacked up on PoMo providing (multiplicative in a few cases and additive in most cases) improvements to it. I call this unbeatable combination Po2Mo.
PoPoMo can also be used standalone to provide extremely offensive options where none had existed before (like when there is no time to setup for PoMo) or to neutralize PoMo.
Here are a few exercises you can do (thanks to Rick Smith Jr) to get ready and be in shape for PoPoMo when I decide to finally unveil it.
Be careful! It took Rick over 15 years and two Tommy Johns to get here (90+ mph)
But as this guy shows with dedication you can master PoPoMo type movements at any age.
Your ceiling might be one celery stick but that is good enough to hit through most of the tennis population, especially if you add a bit of PoMo to it.
I will clarify the biomechanics of PoPoMo in later posts.
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
I believe in POMO. People thought >65 sq in racket face, 2hbh, graphite, etc. were all useless gimmicks.
POMO will revolutionize tennis more than poly strings.
I've already bought stock in POMO and POMOcoin.
POMO will revolutionize tennis more than poly strings.
I've already bought stock in POMO and POMOcoin.
Mainsacross
Semi-Pro
Wouldn't it be nice
If they married
The oversize racquet,
And the abbreviated swing?
PoMo happens
When annotation
And schematic diagram
Overrun the text,
And the madmen
Take over
The tennis asylum.
Don't drop that racquet head
For the love of God!
Don't swing that racquet back
You followers of the old!
Your God is dead and on the brier
And yet you worship at his altar.
I am shipwrecked Columbus
On the rock of Gibraltar,
But I can see the New World,
From my perch.
No backswing
No topspin
No front foot
No back foot
This is the new tennis of the mind
It played solely in my head
(Sorry, I can't play you on a local court,
I have been banned for life
For shooting the tennis Zapruder film.
Let's meet instead on the Astral Plane
And hypothesize the perfect game)
If they married
The oversize racquet,
And the abbreviated swing?
PoMo happens
When annotation
And schematic diagram
Overrun the text,
And the madmen
Take over
The tennis asylum.
Don't drop that racquet head
For the love of God!
Don't swing that racquet back
You followers of the old!
Your God is dead and on the brier
And yet you worship at his altar.
I am shipwrecked Columbus
On the rock of Gibraltar,
But I can see the New World,
From my perch.
No backswing
No topspin
No front foot
No back foot
This is the new tennis of the mind
It played solely in my head
(Sorry, I can't play you on a local court,
I have been banned for life
For shooting the tennis Zapruder film.
Let's meet instead on the Astral Plane
And hypothesize the perfect game)
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
OP, I think that you were the first poster to mention adding an extra stretch shorten cycle (SSC) to your serve. I think I have noticed that in Roddick's serving technique.
Since then I have noticed especially in the forehand what I think are additional SSCs being added. There is a lot of variety in the forehand.
Do you notice extra SSCs in the forehands of some players such as Jack Sock?
Since then I have noticed especially in the forehand what I think are additional SSCs being added. There is a lot of variety in the forehand.
Do you notice extra SSCs in the forehands of some players such as Jack Sock?
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
What was the added SSC?
In terms of the serve, I am inclined to think that very little has changed in terms of technique since Pancho Gonzales' serve from 50+ years ago. If there was a more optimal technique it would have been discovered through trial and error from the million high level servers performing that motion in the last half century...
Possibly a different story with forehand as equipment might more into play; but pros can serve 130mph+ with old wooden racquets.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
There is the important ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle for the serve that has been much discussed. There are several separate components of the ESR part. To begin most servers cause ESR by bringing the forearm and racket up and back apparently actively using the muscles that do ESR. (then followed by leg thrust, shoulder-over-shoulder and trunk twist, etc. as described by Elliott et al). See Sampras.
Roddick at the beginning looks to me as if he added a quick forceful downward acceleration just before starting the ESR that brings the forearm and racket back up. I believe that would give an extra stretch to the ESR muscles at the beginning. I saw it very distinctly on one serve video but don't have that video now. Compare the motion and forces used by Roddick just before he starts the ESR, sort of a quick down-up with more force.
Gonzales learned to serve when the rule was that one foot had to remain on the ground (rule change 1962?) until the ball was struck. I have not seen him jump. So the serve has changed a lot since Gonzales's technique. Pat Dougherty explains the effect of the rule change on serving in a video. "Your serve technique doing more harm than good"
Last edited:
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
It is interesting to note that even after the rule change,Gonzales stuck with the grounded serve.
We have seen the demos with high level servers like Florian serving ~100mph from his knees compared to his ~110mph lift-off serve.
I conclude the lift off adds about 10% pace and magnifies the ESR/ISR component and other contributors but the basic technique is the same.
Last edited:
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
So, you think Roddick could serve ~135MPH from his knees???
I saw 6'4" Struff serve 136 MPH courtside this past summer. It sounded like a large firecracker going off. I don't think Roddick could achieve that from his knees
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Nice! That stuck a chord!
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
You did more for PoMo than most on this forum. You actually tried it out on the court like I had asked.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
This is a DIY forum. The Costco 12 pack work well.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Very much so. More and more footage is coming out in the public domain. Good high definition stuff, in slow motion and super slow motion. The shirt less ones are even better.
You were the one who pointed me in the direction of looking for bicep wiggles. Now I don't just see bicep wiggles but wiggles of various muscle groups as well that gives very good indication of the timing of the SSC loads and releases. You can actual see the wiggles in opposite directions spaced in time.
I not only notice multiple stacked SSCs (ones that occur in series) but ones that occur in parallel as well especially in martial arts feats. One SSC can help build the one that comes next or it could be happen in parallel aiding the overall cause of the reason for the SSC to happen in the first place. In tennis, calf raises, knee flexes, hip snaps, ab crunches, wrist snaps, scissor kicks .... So not just ISR/ESR.
There is some much more potential to improve strokes. The limits I don't think is in increasing the power potential. It is more in preventing injury. High performance humans might need tendons and ligament grafts and external bracing. All these are grey areas now.
D
Deleted member 754093
Guest
Can the technique be applied to mandolin shredding?
Doc Hollidae
Hall of Fame
Strokes (bio-mechanical improvement and their understanding) have in the past lagged improvements in the equipment that precipitated them in the first place. Not just in tennis but in all of sport.
I plan to change the order of things a bit.
Gentlepeople, Post-post-modern (PoPoMo) has arrived!
PoPoMo has arrived before equipment (materials, manufacturing processes, racquets, string beds ....) that can showcase it in its full glory have made their debuts.
The good thing about PoPoMo is that it can for most part be stacked up on PoMo providing (multiplicative in a few cases and additive in most cases) improvements to it. I call this unbeatable combination Po2Mo.
PoPoMo can also be used standalone to provide extremely offensive options where none had existed before (like when there is no time to setup for PoMo) or to neutralize PoMo.
Here are a few exercises you can do (thanks to Rick Smith Jr) to get ready and be in shape for PoPoMo when I decide to finally unveil it.
Be careful! It took Rick over 15 years and two Tommy Johns to get here (90+ mph)
But as this guy shows with dedication you can master PoPoMo type movements at any age.
Your ceiling might be one celery stick but that is good enough to hit through most of the tennis population, especially if you add a bit of PoMo to it.
I will clarify the biomechanics of PoPoMo in later posts.
New Serving method? Or forehand slice?
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
To make this a success you will need more than one off ball machine vids. Actual live person play will be needed.Strokes (bio-mechanical improvement and their understanding) have in the past lagged improvements in the equipment that precipitated them in the first place. Not just in tennis but in all of sport.
I plan to change the order of things a bit.
Gentlepeople, Post-post-modern (PoPoMo) has arrived!
PoPoMo has arrived before equipment (materials, manufacturing processes, racquets, string beds ....) that can showcase it in its full glory have made their debuts.
The good thing about PoPoMo is that it can for most part be stacked up on PoMo providing (multiplicative in a few cases and additive in most cases) improvements to it. I call this unbeatable combination Po2Mo.
PoPoMo can also be used standalone to provide extremely offensive options where none had existed before (like when there is no time to setup for PoMo) or to neutralize PoMo.
Here are a few exercises you can do (thanks to Rick Smith Jr) to get ready and be in shape for PoPoMo when I decide to finally unveil it.
Be careful! It took Rick over 15 years and two Tommy Johns to get here (90+ mph)
But as this guy shows with dedication you can master PoPoMo type movements at any age.
Your ceiling might be one celery stick but that is good enough to hit through most of the tennis population, especially if you add a bit of PoMo to it.
I will clarify the biomechanics of PoPoMo in later posts.
Saul Goode
Semi-Pro
Now you’re just being absurd. Grey areas? You know nothing about tennis.
Doc Hollidae
Hall of Fame
FTFY
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
I think if you hit with a say 20 sq inch racket with 30 inch length that is a solid paddle you will hit the ball much faster. You will lose less of the energy on the hit because of the solid rebound. ? Does this make sense? Like a baseball bat. Small 20 sq inch head so less air resistance. Full paddle face at 90 sq inch too much air resistance. 120mph fhs.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Indeed! The eureka moment came while playing a very fast version of "Blackberry Blossom" on the mandolin. Properly timed, closed loops of stacked stretch shorten cycles that reinforce each other are the basis of fast effortless shredding on the mandolin. It takes a decent amount of force to pick the thick doubled metal strings of a mandolin. Super slow motion video of a master picker was what opened my eyes to the possibilities.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
As I mentioned before it is a complete family of stroke making. Can be applied to all tennis strokes. Can be stacked on top of classical, modern or post-modern in an additive or multiplicative manner (in terms of effect) in most cases.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Tiger Woods has LASIK enhanced 20/15 vision. Mark Maguire used special contacts to correct to 20/10. Baseball pitchers now get Tommy John surgeries at the start of their careers and not to prolong their careers like before using materials better than what their bodies actually made. The weakest link in all pitching sports including in tennis (Djoker can attest to that) is the ulnar collateral ligament which frays and gives way with repeated high speed throws. The very high end IOLs for cataract and artificial knees for the worn out ones are already better than what people are born with. We will soon have means to project augmented reality on to our retinas which will tell us exactly what the incoming ball is doing and where you need to hit it and at what face angle for optimal results (and if we close the loop it will guide our body in doing it). There is nothing absurd about the points I am making.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Here are the rules governing tennis rackets https://www.itftennis.com/technical/publications/rules/rackets/appendix-ii.aspx. Can't do what you are suggesting.
What I am doing however is interesting experiments like replacing the handle of a stiff racquet and string bed that I like with a flexible signal whip handle. Has a learning curve to control but quite an impressive jump in RHS.
Doc Hollidae
Hall of Fame
Can't wait. Welcome back to TTW. It hasn't been the same without you.
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Where can get bionic implants to facilitate pomo technique?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Thread on mandolin picking speed.
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-58698.html
"Son of "How to Increase Picking Speed""
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/...on-of-quot-How-to-increase-picking-speed-quot
Can you locate the link to the super slow motion video?
------------------------------------------------
Sometimes I shake my hand as fast as it will oscillate, the fingers are a blur. Is that nearly pure stretch shorten cycles (SSCs) repeating themselves? What determines the amplitude of the oscillation?
Could Actin & Myosin lock the muscle fiber lengths and determine the amplitude of muscle oscillations from the Titin? I don't believe that shaking the hand can have much to do with approaching the end of the range of motion, reflex reactions... ? .....maybe sometimes.
Last edited:
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
There is not very much slow motion footage of mandolin fast picking techniques in the public domain. I have some personal recordings that I made which I don't have permission to share.
In the public domain I have learnt a lot from Troy Grady's work
A very good introduction to the bio-mechanics of picking here
The actual series from where I first saw stacked SSCs in action
starting at 0:47 which gives you a taste. You have to go to his site and sign up to download slow motion videos.
I study Chris Thile's technique a lot for the mandolin, especially his guillotine stroke technique. Here is a good video that provides good close up high definition shots.
It may sound counter intuitive but to get speed you need to go to end to range of motion when you pick.
On a related note, Chris is a big Roger Federer fan and mentions him often on his show on NPR
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Great videos!
The motions at 0:47 in the second video look like sequential SSCs, oscillations with very small controlled amplitudes (the muscle fiber lengths are oscillating somehow). These particular motions don't look near the ends of the ranges of motion. ?
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Glad you are able to see stacked SSCs. The console with sensor measurements (more in full series) provides more evidence.
I will answer your range of motion observation cryptically at this point. I don't want to give too much away.
One of the discoveries that I made was that I could deliberately control certain ranges of motion (either directly or indirectly using other muscle groups). Pushing against this shortened range of motion as though the full range was available provided the same benefit (in terms of speed) of a non-impinged SSC but it an even shorter amount of time (similar to what I believe is happening in the picking video in question). This is one (of the about half a dozen or so) principles on which PoMo is based. PoPoMo adds half a dozen more.
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Have you played any tournaments yet?
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Come on rog. No tournament will assume the liability...
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
I have mentioned the timeline of acquisition of various techniques before.
Maybe you are confusing the wrist laid back low bouncing serve or the buggy whip serve with a PoMo serve. They are very different techniques.
The PoMo serve has not been publicly unveiled. No public footage of it exists.
If TTW brings back my original (30K+ view) thread (which had a lot of context) I might release a sneak peak (after removing the distinctive early part of the stroke). Another option is (as I mentioned in the original thread) to get Tiafoe, Sock, Kyrgios, Khachanov or Edmund to hit a few forehands after pointing the racquet tip to the ground (rather than at the ball) while getting as much active ISR pre-pre-stretch as they can and report how that feels.
Yes one can hit massive kicks with PoMo.
BTW PoPoMo is Feb '18
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
That is a good summary.
However the PoPoMo part is based on old information that I posted based on my conjecture from that time (see my first posts in this thread).
As it turns out PoPoMo is turning out to be a far more useful addition to stroke making than Modern or PoMo were which were more in place replacement techniques to what came before them. PoPoMo is turning out of the additive in that you can tack it on to whatever style you play. It can also be used standalone to neutralize PoMo as you (and I) have mentioned. Its ability to neutralize PoMo comes from being able to generate standalone PoPoMo strokes with very little or no preparation. PoMo's effectiveness comes from being able hit hard and heavy winners in very flat trajectories which takes times away from the opponent. Reaction times available to a 110 mph deep flat shot is comparable to a 150 mph serve into the service box. It broke the wrist of an opponent recently reducing my option to play with people even further. So I am now very conservative about who I consider fit enough to handle that pace. Trying to block back PoMo is not very effective given the 2000 rpm+ spin in addition to the pace. It is hard to generate the RHS needed to neutralize the spin in the small reaction time available against a PoMo stroke. This is where standalone PoPoMo come in. But if a PoMo exponent learns PoPoMo and stacks them together then the resulting stroke has no known counter.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Wander
Hall of Fame
Not only is PoMo unbeatable, it can win matches with a single stroke if the opponent is foolish enough to try to return a PoMo stroke. I certainly understand your reluctance to reveal all the PoMo and PoPoMo strokes to the general public now. Great power, great responsibility and all that.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
Hello,
Hope things are going well for you in Vegas. I am glad you improved your serve. That will remove the one glaring weakness in your game.
No hard feeling from my side either.
PTC has been a steadily worsening experience for me. I don't go there much anymore. They don't seem know what to do with somebody with such a lop sided game like mine. My only convenient option there is a ball machine. They have drastically reduced times when I can use one. I used to be able to bring people to play there for free. Now they are charging court fees for my guests so that option is gone too. Anyways I am a much better singles player now (I barely played any singles when we had our hit) and am now used to the singles play patterns and court geometry.
Life/work has kept me very busy. So the little time I have for exercise and tennis I have spent it on developing tennis weapons. Hopefully I will find a convenient venue where I can fully open up the envelope of the weapons in real match play. It takes a little time to calibrate my weapons against a particular persons style of play. The pattern seems to be that people play me and tolerate my initial errors as long as they are winning then stop playing me once I get a measure of their game in singles. I have had three or four good singles partners who stuck with me and enjoyed my style of play. Only one is left now and the other two had to move due to their jobs. The only option to play doubles is in Beaverton or Vancouver and traffic and commutes make that pretty hard.
Drop me a line if you are in Portland and maybe we can hit.
My second serve needs much work.
Yes the traffic in Portland is insane and very hard to go anywhere !!!
Vegas has superior weather and food but the people in Oregon are far more normal and nice
I hear the vagrant population is exploding there
Similar threads
