Losing tension when stringing crosses.

aidanzman73

aidanzman73

New User
Hi guys,

I’m using a gamma progression drop weight machine and every time I’ve strung a racket so far when I get to the crosses they always end up coming off in the range of 38-45lbs. I’ve used Poly, Syn Gut, Natural Gut, Multi and always the same. I’ve also changed the tension to try and adjust it higher than the main but they always come out measuring about the same. It’s not too much of an issue as the rackets still play fine but I just wondered if I’m missing something? Technique for Starting knot on the crosses? Etc
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
How are you measuring cross tension, with a String Meter? Crosses always come out lower than mains and there is a lot of string tension on the crosses you do not get on the mains.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
The crosses have to deal with sliding against the mains when being tensioned, which is why some people string crosses tighter than mains. They're also shorter, which is why some people string them looser than the mains. It really shouldn't be a problem, just find a setup that works for you and be consistent. The numbers don't matter as long as it feels good. If you're consistent, it will be fine. If you're obsessed with numbers, look up Sergetti stringing. I'm not a big believer in it, but a lot of people swear by it.
 
esgee48

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
Since you have a DW/CP, move the cross string down and then back up as you pull tension. This reduces the inter string friction enough so that you can see the DW drop and get closer to ref tension. FWIW, you are after a consistent repeatable string bed DT. Do it the old way and new way and see which one you like better.
 
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J

jim e

Legend
Make sure the cross strings are straight when you tension the string. If you straighten later, the results will be less tension along with inconsistent results depending on the curvature. Before you tension, push that string next to previous tensioned cross string and then pull tension, as this will help you keep it straight.
 
darklore009

darklore009

Hall of Fame
After I weave through the crosses, I usually move the crosses towards the cross that was tensioned before. When you apply tension to the string, the string will almost be straight most of the time and saving you the trouble of having to straightening it later.
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Thorswhisper said:
Would using a cross weaving device reduce the tension loss in the crosses? Ie Stringweaver etc.?
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No. Using a weaving tool may give you a higher tension in the crosses because there is less friction on the mains and crosses when tensioning the crosses. But you can get a higher tension also by simply raising the tension. Once the string is tensioned a given string will have the same tension loss if it was stretched the same distance.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Thorswhisper said:
Would using a cross weaving device reduce the tension loss in the crosses? Ie Stringweaver etc.?
Click to expand...
Potentially. I have not tested it myself, but it could potentially reduce tension loss on the crosses, but also increase tension loss on the mains due to deflecting the strings up/down rather than just letting them lay straight. That's just my thinking from using the product. However, a friend/colleague of mine said he did stringbed stiffness tests at the end of stringing with and without the use of the StringWeaver and they were the same, so I would say overall there is either no or minimal difference.
 
oldcity

oldcity

Rookie
As noted above is the technique I started using some time ago which produced a noticeably firmer string bed for me. (weave a string, push it up against the string you tensioned prior, let it drop down as you pull tension.) If you like the feel now, you might have to adjust your tension down if you start doing this. The other bonus, also mentioned above, is that the strings are straight whern you are done. before my crosses had a bit of a smile that had to be straightened after.
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Big Bagel said:
I see people doing it all the time. I rarely see anybody not doing it other than people just beginning to string.
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Let me make sure we are talking about the same thing. Are you talking about weaving one ahead or pulling the next cross to be tensioned up against the last tensioned string before you weave one ahead?
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Irvin said:
Let me make sure we are talking about the same thing. Are you talking about weaving one ahead or pulling the next cross to be tensioned up against the last tensioned string before you weave one ahead?
Click to expand...
Both. Unless you're using a stiff string like poly, pushing the next string to be tensioned up against the last cross makes weaving much easier. And I see it all the time, outside of stiff strings like a 4G that doesn't want to bend that much that quickly.
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Big Bagel said:
Both. Unless you're using a stiff string like poly, pushing the next string to be tensioned up against the last cross makes weaving much easier. And I see it all the time, outside of stiff strings like a 4G that doesn't want to bend that much that quickly.
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I would disagree with you. If you're using a stiff poly especially it is important to push the next string up against the last tensioned string. Which led me to say I doubt the USRSA has been teaching this technique for the last 30 years.

BUT there is a trick to it. If you're using a stiff string it is important you push the side closest to the last clamp up first. If you don't the string wants to slide down away from the last tensioned string because it is so stiff.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Irvin said:
I would disagree with you. If you're using a stiff poly especially it is important to push the next string up against the last tensioned string. Which led me to say I doubt the USRSA has been teaching this technique for the last 30 years.

BUT there is a trick to it. If you're using a stiff string it is important you push the side closest to the last clamp up first. If you don't the string wants to slide down away from the last tensioned string because it is so stiff.
Click to expand...
The problem is the stiffer the string, the less it wants to bend, and the more likely it is to kink (damage) if you do bend it. It doesn't matter which end you start with, it will still be bending the string the same amount.

Because of this conversation, I realized that my thinking on this began when I was still a very novice stringer. So, I decided to put my thinking to the test today, as I needed to string my racquet anyway. My racquet is a nice and open 16x16 string pattern, so if the string was damaged in this racquet, it most likely would in others as well. I strung it with Solinco Hyper-G 16L, which is on the stiffer side, but not as stiff as the 4G I mentioned earlier.

So here was the test: after I pulled tension and moved the clamp, but before I pulled the last loop of string through the crosses, I pushed the next cross all the way against the cross I just tensioned, which you suggest to make the weaving easier and I do with nylon strings. Then I pulled that section of string out so I could inspect the string to see what condition it was in. It turns out, my thoughts were correct; the string was bent and damaged.

My conclusion: I would never do this on a customer's racquet, because I don't want damaged strings in their racquet. However, at least on my own racquet, I don't mind doing that for the last 3-4 crosses because I know that I'm not going to break strings there, even with slightly damaged strings, as the last few crosses are the only ones that actually get difficult to weave with anyway.

Try it for yourself; with a stiff poly, push the strung but untensioned cross up against the last tensioned cross, but then pull that string out and inspect it. If you wouldn't want string in that condition to start stringing a customer's racquet with, you shouldn't do that to the string as you install it into the frame.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Irvin said:
Try it first then tell me it does not matter.
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Did you not read the rest of my post? I just tried it out. It damaged the string. I tried starting on either side. The issue isn't the string sliding away; the issue is the string bends too much and is damaged when pushed up against the last tensioned cross.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Irvin said:
@Big Bagel you got me on that one I did not go on. Sorry about that. But I have done this many times and never have damaged a string.
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You may just not realize it because you never get to feel the string after you push it against the cross string. Try it out for yourself; push it against the string, and then pull that string out before tensioning it and feel it. You won't notice it unless you actually take it out of the racquet and feel it. With softer strings it's fine because they are soft enough to bend without deforming the string, but stiffer strings don't like it.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Irvin said:
@Big Bagel I assume when you same it damages the string the mains are sawing into the poly crosses creating a groove is that right?
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It doesn't saw into them, it just bends it out of place like when you kink a string. It just becomes a relatively sharp angle that does not return to it's relatively straight state that it was in when you first installed it.
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
@Big Bagel I tried stringing one of my 18 x 19 frames today with a poly string. I actually made a video and I'll edit and post it if you like. Poly string will show a lot more memory if you bend it I agree but I do not think there is any permanent damage to the string by pulling it up. It is nothing like a kink it is just a smooth slight bend.

EDIT: Here is a picture of the string down near the bottom of the frame

4rdzr7.jpg
 
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B

Big Bagel

Professional
Irvin said:
@Big Bagel I tried stringing one of my 18 x 19 frames today with a poly string. I actually made a video and I'll edit and post it if you like. Poly string will show a lot more memory if you bend it I agree but I do not think there is any permanent damage to the string by pulling it up. It is nothing like a kink it is just a smooth slight bend.

EDIT: Here is a picture of the string down near the bottom of the frame

4rdzr7.jpg
Click to expand...
Yes, I don't think it should be an issue, especially since it's the cross, but as long as I'm not in a rush to string, I still don't do it to just in case. Kind of like how I still don't string more than three 3 mains on one side before going to the other side; I've seen people just string one side completely and then go to the other side, and I don't see people having problems with that as long as the frame is mounted correctly, but I'm still not going to do it just in case something does happen, because it potentially could. I wouldn't say anybody is wrong for pushing stiff poly strings like that, because I think I'll start doing it more myself, especially at the end, but I'm still not going to do it most of the time, especially in the middle of the racquet.
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Big Bagel said:
I think I'll start doing it more myself, especially at the end, but I'm still not going to do it most of the time, especially in the middle of the racquet.
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If you do not pull that next string to be tensioned up against the last tensioned string then that next string to be tensioned holds the high main strings down and the low main strings up creating more friction on the one ahead weave which could cause damage to the string while you are weaving.
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
@Big Bagel I just finished stringing a Hyper Hammer Hybrid 5. It’s an 18 x 20 aluminum racket designed for 1 piece so I used an ATW pattern. I used a Yonex Loop on the short side, and crossed over on the 20th cross and back on the top cross. So all odd crosses were strung left to right and all even right to left. All odd crosses are a hard weave especially if you don’t push the even cross up before weave one ahead (the odd cross.) If you do push the even cross up and weave the odd string higher up all crosses are easier weaves.
 
Herb

Herb

Semi-Pro
Rabbit said:
Agree here too. I was shown that long ago.
Click to expand...

I have seen inexperienced stringers train new stringers at pro shops. I have seen new stringers left on their own after 2 or 3 racquets. Had a guy tell me you didn't have to straighten the strings on a constant pull machine. String had about a half inch curve in it midway down the racquet.

A little off topic. A few years ago a former stringer at a specialty store told me that they were instructed not to fan crosses, and to pull them fast to encourage notching. Their theory was by creating weak spots the string would fail quicker and create more and faster repeat business. He said stringing was their bread and butter, so they did everything they could to make sure you needed to string again sooner than later.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Herb said:
I have seen inexperienced stringers train new stringers at pro shops. I have seen new stringers left on their own after 2 or 3 racquets. Had a guy tell me you didn't have to straighten the strings on a constant pull machine. String had about a half inch curve in it midway down the racquet.

A little off topic. A few years ago a former stringer at a specialty store told me that they were instructed not to fan crosses, and to pull them fast to encourage notching. Their theory was by creating weak spots the string would fail quicker and create more and faster repeat business. He said stringing was their bread and butter, so they did everything they could to make sure you needed to string again sooner than later.
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And that's why you should try and take your racquets to a USRSA-certified stringer/technician to get your racquet strung, or just do it yourself.
 
Irvin

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Big Bagel said:
And that's why you should try and take your racquets to a USRSA-certified stringer/technician to get your racquet strung, or just do it yourself.
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I’ve seen a certified MRT double pull all the mains, string all the mains on one side then the other, and string all the mains bottom up on a Head racket. Just because someone knows how a racket should be strung and is certifiable does not mean your racket will be strung correctly.
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Irvin said:
I’ve seen a certified MRT double pull all the mains, string all the mains on one side then the other, and string all the mains bottom up on a Head racket. Just because someone knows how a racket should be strung and is certifiable does not mean your racket will be strung correctly.
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Yes, that is true. But if someone is certified, you at least know that they know how to string properly, which is more than you can say for someone who isn't certified.
 
J

jim e

Legend
Big Bagel said:
And that's why you should try and take your racquets to a USRSA-certified stringer/technician to get your racquet strung, or just do it yourself.
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I am not certified, and have no intentions to be certified as I would not benefit from it. I am a member, and that's it. I started stringing in 1968 before there was a USRSA.
I have enough stringing business, as my free time is limited, as I have a real job, as stringing is a side line for me.
I know proper protocols and string properly. I like the USRSA, and I am a member, as it gives credibility to the craft.

Then you hear things like this post below, so being certified really does not mean all that much as you think.

Steve Huff said:
The USRSA has tried to get stringers to get certified as Certified Technician (CT) and Master Racket Technician (MRT). I think their intent was good, but I think many are certified that really shouldn't be. This happens when large sporting goods stores have a "tester" and the store has an incentive to have "certified" stringers. You end up with people who know how to string a racket, know a little about strings, and know the differences in some rackets getting certified. What makes me think this? A few years ago, the USRSA tried to make it a requirement that you had to work at a tennis shop to become an MRT. Obviously, they heard a lot of flak about it as they backed off quickly. Why would they even propose such a thing. Well, the only ones that seem to have a motive to push this would be sporting goods (or tennis) shops. And, unfortunately, it lessens the value of those certifications for very good stringers like Gaines, Thomas, David and Ed.
Click to expand...
 
B

Big Bagel

Professional
Yes, unfortunately you'll always hear stories like that. You see that with tennis coaching certification as well; there will be testers who are more lenient when testing people the know. Luckily there's still the written aspects to exams that are not graded by the tester, both for USRSA and coaching certifications, but it's very difficult to eliminate that sort of bias without having a centralized location for all the testing to happen, which is very limiting. Like I said, being certified doesn't guarantee you'll get a great string job, but at least you know that they are capable of a good string job. While there are plenty of great stringers that aren't certified, if you don't know them personally, then you know nothing about them, whether they follow proper stringing procedures or not, or whether they even know what proper stringing procedures are at all. With someone who's certified, you at least know that they know what those protocols are; you just have to trust that they are actually implementing them.
 
S

Steve Huff

G.O.A.T.
BB--I've been stringing since 1979, and like Jim, have seen most racket, wood, metal and graphite. I am not certified or an MRT either. I saw cases where place like Sports Authority (and others) claimed all of their stringers were MRTs, then read so many complaints about them, and pictures of poor string jobs by them. Big box stores had a manager who could do the certification, so for a while anyway, certification meant nothing. It meant that your store wanted to be able to say "all of our stringers are MRTs".

I watched Irvin's video. I think it looked like a good way of stringing crosses, especially when using a constant pull machine. With a lockout, it might lock out before the string straightens out. I don't see how it would cause damage to the string. I tried what you said to do (tension it, then pull it completely out). Mine did as Irvin described. It held its memory, stayed in kind of an "S" shape, but I found no sharp edges on the string. I was using Pro Supex Big Ace. I'll try it again in the future with a different string to see if there's any change.
 
ROCKinCourier

ROCKinCourier

Rookie
Herb said:
Agree, I see alot of beginners leave smiley faces. But, I also see it at pro shops and specialty stores. They just do everything as fast as they can.
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And this is why I'm about to buy my own stringing machine -- again. I used to string my own when I was in HS and College. But that was 15-20 years ago. I am tired of paying $15 for labor only for ****ty and inconsistent string jobs by "MRT" folks at a major store here in Houston. I wouldn't mind paying if they cared about their quality of work and did a good job.
 
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