What a dumbish post, make the letter even bigger, you don't have any arguments
What do you think it takes for the WTA to be in same respect level as ATP
- Thread starter Elektra
- Start date
What a dumbish post, make the letter even bigger, you don't have any arguments
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
I demolished the terms of the question, so beyond that my work is done here.
Men don't work more than women and they are both deserving our equal respect.
Men don't work more than women and they are both deserving our equal respect.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Well, I did watch a lot more women's tennis in the decades past, so I think that it is fair to say that I have no specific limitations in that regard.
I also used to watch some Halep etc matches before those players started also screaming on the top of their lungs, so clearly, it is the same perception that allows me to watch some matches, and not others, of the same players no less.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
I don't prefer women's tennis, but it commands my equal respect.
I hear men grunting and women screaming, and dislike both equally.
I hear men grunting and women screaming, and dislike both equally.
Well, I did watch a lot more women's tennis in the decades past, so I think that it is fair to say that I have no specific limitations in that regard.
I also used to watch some Halep etc matches before those players started also screaming on the top of their lungs, so clearly, it is the same perception that allows me to watch some matches, and not others, of the same players no less.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
If I perceive the grunting/screaming to be a gamesmanship, I respect the player less, irrespective of who does it, but if the comparison runs in the lines of WTA vs ATP it is clear where the bigger/more frequent offenders are.
However I am not putting all women or all men under the same umbrella, despite of the framework within which we discuss the issues here.
you're totally dumb, aren't you? where's on GS women play Bo5?
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
You may perceive it as gamesmanship, but they don't penalise it as such beyond I think one or two instances.
If I perceive the grunting/screaming to be a gamesmanship, I respect the player less, irrespective of who does it, but if the comparison runs in the lines of WTA vs ATP it is clear where the bigger/more frequent offenders are.
However I am not putting all women or all men under the same umbrella, despite of the framework within which we discuss the issues here.
D
Deleted member 756486
Guest
Men play BO5 sets and women play BO3. The men work more.
Watching Nadal/Thiem after that Serena borefest just reinforces my belief that men should be payed more at slams.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
We are talking about ATP and WTA, not slams, but for most of the history of slams men and women were paid equally ... nothing ... and now they are again.
The slams are organised traditionally, and do as they please, so neither the male nor female tours can change this so you are talking nonsense to think this is a 'work-related' issue.
The slams are organised traditionally, and do as they please, so neither the male nor female tours can change this so you are talking nonsense to think this is a 'work-related' issue.
D
Deleted member 756486
Guest
The pay is and should be equal at non slam events because the same amount of sets are played.
It’s really that simple for me.
It’s really that simple for me.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Men don't play BO5 outside of slams and do so at slams because it is tradition. It has nothing to do with work or pay.
They are not working and they are not getting paid. There are no other employers out there putting on alternative slams.
They are not working and they are not getting paid. There are no other employers out there putting on alternative slams.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Simple-minded, yes, but simple is inappropriate here.
These matters are governed by tradition at slams and by what organisers want.
They don't want to change and as they own the property they don't have to.
So you blathering on about equal sets is irrelevant.
It's not an employment issue.
At non-slam events, men and women are not paid the same.
They are paid according to what the respective tours can raise.
So the pay here is nothing to do with sets worked.
These matters are governed by tradition at slams and by what organisers want.
They don't want to change and as they own the property they don't have to.
So you blathering on about equal sets is irrelevant.
It's not an employment issue.
At non-slam events, men and women are not paid the same.
They are paid according to what the respective tours can raise.
So the pay here is nothing to do with sets worked.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
What "they" do doesn't in any way or form change the reality of what it is, so I will go with my understanding.
Respect is not something that "they" define.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Your perception doesn't change, but if the people who can levy a penalty don't perceive it then it is their perception that creates the reality that will be recorded.
What "they" do doesn't in any way or form change the reality of what it is, so I will go with my understanding.
Respect is not something that "they" define.
WarrenMP
Professional
It might just be me, but the WTA first strike tennis strategy is getting boring. I just wish more WTA players are able to crack that code with a different more intense style. I was happy when Suarez Navarro beat Sharapova. It was a different style that came on top. I can watch those types of matches all day.
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
Indeed. I'm all for respecting the WTA and compensating them more than sufficiently, but look at the epics Nadal has played at Wimbledon and the US Open this year and it's clear that something's wrong if that earns him equal money to round upon round of uneventful 6-4 6-2 routine wins on the women's side.
At other events both the ATP and WTA use three sets, so equal pay is easier to justify.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I think that that line is exhausted as far as determining how much respect there is.
Maybe you consider how a non- tennis fan perceives the whole situation, but that is why there is a difference in the opinions of the tennis community vs non-tennis community.
It is a difference of how/based on what one forms his opinions.
If your contention here is that the mass/non-tennis opinion is the dominant one, well, duh.
We are on a tennis forum.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
They are advertising tennis with commercials featuring grunting males and screaming females.
TV associates noise with excitement, whether we like it or not, and that's probably why they've never really cracked down on noisy players.
TV associates noise with excitement, whether we like it or not, and that's probably why they've never really cracked down on noisy players.
I think that that line is exhausted as far as determining how much respect there is.
Maybe you consider how a non- tennis fan perceives the whole situation, but that is why there is a difference in the opinions of the tennis community vs non-tennis community.
It is a difference of how/based on what one forms his opinions.
If your contention here is that the mass/non-tennis opinion is the dominant one, well, duh.
We are on a tennis forum.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
ATP and WTA players are not paid equally outside of slams even though they play the same sets.
There is no connection between the length of the match and the prize money on offer.
Your argument would lead to differential 'pay' between exciting male players and dull ones, so that's an original proposition!
There is no connection between the length of the match and the prize money on offer.
Your argument would lead to differential 'pay' between exciting male players and dull ones, so that's an original proposition!
Tennis_Hands
Banned
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
My view of this whole issue has been pretty consistent the whole way through:
1. Start from a principle of equal pay for equal work. That is fair. So that would mean I think the ATP and WTA players should ideally be paid equally outside the slams. I realise they are not. In slams, pay the women 3/5 as much as the men, or make both tours play the same number of sets.
2. Factor in viewership/revenue/value produced. So if the guys are bringing in twice the revenue, that should be reflected in their compensation somehow. Not necessarily double, but I don't think ignoring this is fair on them either.
3. At the end of the day it's a matter for the slams if they wish to pay both tours the same, for PR or whatever reason. I'm just saying what I'd probably do and I acknowledge that my views would likely differ in some way if I was actually put in charge of these things tomorrow.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Holding serve is a good place to start.
It could worse: a few Granddaddies beating up on two generations of total losers, including a hyped, so-called "next generation" AKA the still running Can't Win A Major Legion (Thiem, Isner, Nishikori, Kyrgios, Dimitrov, Simon, Pospisil, Tomic, Querry, et al) who are arguably the worst, least successful men's generation in Open ERa history.
The women do not have that problem, as they have a number of active players who have won majors. Since 2010:
- Schiavone - FO - 2010
- Clijsters - USO 2010 & AO 2011
- Li Na - FO 2011 & AO 2014
- Kvitova - Wimbledon 2011 & 2014
- Stosur - USO 2011
- Sharapova - FO 2012 & FO 2014
- Azarenka - AO 2012 & 2013
- Bartoli - Wimbledon 2013
- Pennetta - USO 2015
- Kerber - AO 2016, USO 2016 & Wimbledon 2018
- Muguruza - FO 2016 & Wimbledon 2017
- Ostapenko - FO 2017
- Stephens - USO 2017
- Wozniacki - AO 2018
- Halep - FO 2018
Ann
Hall of Fame
And if the ATP game at the slam only goes 3 sets than they should only get paid 60% or if the game is stopped in the first set because of a retirement, they get < 20%. Sounds harsh but if you say so.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I am talking about the game, and you are talking about achievements, so we are not on the same page.
If I wanted to be on your page, however, I would have asked you just how many of those listed would have won those Majors, if there were three Serena Williamses at the same time, and upping their game sometimes at the same time, and sometimes in different times, while being of different age, so that they represent different challenge to overcome?
I bet that that number would have been severely reduced, reaching maybe even less than that on the ATP.
So, going back to what you quoted, what I said is objective observation of direct comparison, while yours deals with different scenarios, while failing to give the context they create.
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Ann
Hall of Fame
Spoke about #1 just above but for #2, if you start paying based on viewership, then everyone will get paid less than Federer and Nadal. AND you're going to start seeing more absurd play and games played for entertainment only, skill be damned.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
No one is getting paid and there is no employment relationship.
The principle that applies is prize money is accorded at the fiat of the organisers.
The organisers pay as little as possible commensurate with enhancing the prestige of their event.
The principle that applies is prize money is accorded at the fiat of the organisers.
The organisers pay as little as possible commensurate with enhancing the prestige of their event.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
That is the direction in which the sport is moving.
BTW, re the argument about differentiating between players with different levels and the analogy with the WTA/ATP comparison: a tour with Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray couldn't exist, so the players on the respective levels are equally important, which warrants the equal pay for all in every round.
An ATP tour can exist on its own, so equal pay is not warranted, because women "contribute".
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Interesting that you disagree about the footwork and hands. I guess since there is no concrete measure we will just disagree. I'd be interested in the general opinion to see which of us more people agree with.
Nadal is a solid bet to play one point for you, there is hardly anything Murray does better. I like Nadal's backhand better so really all I would give Murray is volleys.
J
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Depends on how that one point is played.
Is the player serving? If so, I'll take someone like Isner or Fed over Rafa.
Returning, Rafa would be a good pick going off return stats, but again that depends on the surface. First week Wimbledon, maybe not. Clay, Rafa is a no-brainer.
I also wouldn't pick Rafa to play a TB; I'd again take Fed or Kyrgios even, assuming NK knows he's playing for my life.
BO5, Nadal or Djokovic are the best bets. Djokovic is the safer choice if the three surfaces are randomised, but Nadal is not a bad choice--if you got clay, you have a 99% of living. Probably somewhere like 85% chance of winning anywhere else.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I made a quick timeline of how those Majors you mention correlate with Serena's age.
Year/Majors won by contenders/Serena's age
2010/2/28
2011/4/29
2012/2/30
2013/2/31
2014/3/32
2015/1/33
2016/2/34
2017/3/35
2018/2 until now/36
So, apart from the odd years for specific reasons (2011, 2017 and 2018), it looks like nobody has been able to displace Serena, despite of her advancing age.
If the field was highly competitive on a high level, surely, some of the ladies should have reached more respectable Majors figures, especially considering that some of those highly competitive players actually vacated their places by retirement (Li Na, Penetta, Bartoli), or never held any special significance outside of a single Major run (Bartoli comes to mind, although she had another good run at Wimbledon before).
Instead we see Williams holding comfortably her place, with the only real signs of strong competition to her being ladies that used their advantage to outhit her with sheer power (which can or cannot be attributed to age, depending on what you consider happened in those encounters).
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
And if you need a WTA player you take Serena every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
J
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I made a quick timeline of how those Majors you mention correlate with Serena's age.
Year/Majors won by contenders/Serena's age
2010/2/28
2011/4/29
2012/2/30
2013/2/31
2014/3/32
2015/1/33
2016/2/34
2017/3/35
2018/2 until now/36
So, apart from the odd years for specific reasons (2011, 2017 and 2018), it looks like nobody has been able to displace Serena, despite of her advancing age.
Here are the figures for Federer's age from his 28 year onwards and how many Majors were won by one of Nadal/Djokovic as contenders:
2010/3/28
2011/4/29
2012/2/30
2013/3/31
2014/2/32
2015/3/33
2016/2/34
2017/2/35
2018/2 until now/36-37
So, 21 Majors won by contenders on the WTA in those years, and 23 Majors won by ATG contenders on the ATP.
Seems pretty consistent with what I was saying in my previous post about the significance of having two other ATGs on the ATP.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Most of the history of slams men and women were not paid equally. Or maybe you sterted to watch slams after 2000? So point your "talking nonsense" to yourself.
Ann
Hall of Fame
Consider it done, you're pretty much everything I hate in a person but still I'll miss you when you're gone.
When you call weak males out on their misogyny, racism, homophobia or overall nastiness they sure do get their panties in a twist. Have you cream-puffs considered hormone replacement therapy?
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Tennis is mostly based on traditions, it's so simple and natural, if you don't know this then you're just wrong person to this game.
Ann
Hall of Fame
Stop shaving the pits, look how well it works for Nadal.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
There wa no 'pay' in the pre-Open era so men and women were equal ... so I was correct and you are, of course, wrong again.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Look how many likes you are getting from someone who had you on ignore!
Thank God for me!
J
Ann
Hall of Fame
No, don't do that. I'm glad you said it because it's a recurring theme when discussing the pay scale. I for one would love to see women's matches go to 5 sets but I have a sinking feeling the push is going to be to make all matches go to 3 sets, which just isn't the same.You’ve got me there.
I’m just gonna stick to talking about actual tennis and being a bit of a meme lord from time to time.
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You have very common stupid men's logic that you're always right and others wrong. Low intellect or no at all. I did not talk about pre-open, you had it only in your damage brains.
I did not mention pre 1968.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Open era sterted long before 2000's if you don't know.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
My mistake, I thought when you said most of the history of slams you meant most of the history of slams not most of the history of slams since 1968.
J
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