My shot tolerance is horrible.

Hunter Rice

New User
Usually in tournaments, I either win the whole thing, or lose to a pusher. The reason that I lose to them is because I have absolutely no shot tolerance. Do you guys have any tips on not always going for big angles, or beating pushers?

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FiReFTW

Legend
You miss alot against them? Slow pace and junk balls are usually more problematic then balls with pace, easier to misshit.
 

Hunter Rice

New User
You miss alot against them? Slow pace and junk balls are usually more problematic then balls with pace, easier to misshit.
Yes, usually when I play people who put more pace on the ball I can win most points against them, but when I play someone without any pace, I tend to hit more balls wide than usual. If I slow down my strokes and just hit it over, they can out it me.
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
what's shot tolerance?

why big angle? aim 2ft inside the line, and watch them run from side to side, and enjoy.
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
Yes, usually when I play people who put more pace on the ball I can win most points against them, but when I play someone without any pace, I tend to hit more balls wide than usual. If I slow down my strokes and just hit it over, they can out it me.

sounds like a flaw in the shot.. should be easier to hit a slower incoming ball to the target.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
sounds like a flaw in the shot.. should be easier to hit a slower incoming ball to the target.

Thats not true at all, when the ball has pace its easier (unless we are talking about people who are up against a pace and spin far beyond that they are used to), its much easier to overhit slow no pace balls because you have to put all your energy and pace into them, while a fast ball already has alot of pace itself.
My coach and me were having a big discussion about this recently, all her junior players play extremely well against usual fast balls, but when faced with balls with zero pace they start to struggle and make more errors.
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
Thats not true at all, when the ball has pace its easier (unless we are talking about people who are up against a pace and spin far beyond that they are used to), its much easier to overhit slow no pace balls because you have to put all your energy and pace into them, while a fast ball already has alot of pace itself.
My coach and me were having a big discussion about this recently, all her junior players play extremely well against usual fast balls, but when faced with balls with zero pace they start to struggle and make more errors.

by this logic, in a match you should just throw up paceless junk and let the other guy miss?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
by this logic, in a match you should just throw up paceless junk and let the other guy miss?

Thats what good pushers do and you would be suprized how effective they can be, up till quite a high level where players start to get better at dealing with no pace balls.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Usually in tournaments, I either win the whole thing, or lose to a pusher. The reason that I lose to them is because I have absolutely no shot tolerance. Do you guys have any tips on not always going for big angles, or beating pushers?

First off, your analysis may be slightly flawed: if you had zero shot tolerance, how are you winning tournaments? The only possible way is to have a huge serve that can't be returned and Agassi-like returns. Assuming this is not the case, you're winning because your opponents all tend to play the same style as you but you are better at it. You don't have zero shot tolerance but a high enough shot tolerance that it suffices to beat the competition.

The pusher is a completely different animal: his main game plan is to hit high % shots [which often means little spin or pace] in the fat part of the court and to allow you the opportunity to make the first mistake. Since most points end in an error anyway, the odds are on his side against those with low shot tolerance. Trying to beat this type of player solely by trying to achieve a higher shot tolerance is probably a losing battle [although a higher shot tolerance will serve you well in general].

For example, I wouldn't bother trying to run faster than Usain Bolt: no matter what I do to my technique, I'm not going to beat him at his own game. To win, I have to change the terms of engagement: turn it into something other than a mere foot race. Let's say he's a terrible juggler and I change the race rules to state that one must continually juggle as one is moving. I'd win the race.

Back to the pusher, the way to improve is to stop playing his game: don't go for winners just because the ball is slow and sitting up for you. Continue to hit intelligently aggressively but to large targets: don't aim for lines. Aim 5' inside the line to give yourself plenty of margin. As you improve, your targets can shrink. But against the pusher, keep your targets large. Eventually, he'll cough up a short ball that you can put away. This is where your shot tolerance will pay off.

For me, a better strategy against the pusher is to go back to the Usain Bolt analogy: how do I change the rules of engagement? By either coming to the net or getting him to come to the net. Both are yanking him out of his CZ [comfort zone] and making him hit shots he doesn't like hitting. As long as his discomfort goes up more than yours, it's a potentially winning strategy.

If you come to the net, he will have to attempt a passing shot: if he hits the same high % shot as if you were on the baseline, you can attack that with a volley: hitting a winner with a volley when you're mere feet from the net is much easier than with a ground stroke from 39' away from the net. So he instead has to be more aggressive with his shot, something he hates to do. The result is that his error rate will go up big time.

One caveat: beware the lob because it's coming.

If you force him to the net [for example, by hitting shots so short that it's not wise to retreat because he'd be out of balance], now you can make him volley or hit OHs; again, he likely isn't comfortable doing this.

In either case, you've shifted the advantage to you. Yes, neither style may be to your liking. But it's better than trying to beat Usain Bolt in a footrace.
 

Dragy

Legend
I tend to hit more balls wide than usual.
What’s your mindset against such balls? Put it away? Have you considered building up pressure during a couple of hits? Like try FH and BH corners to see if one of the sides is usually shorter. Then go with (1) hitting a good shot just to that side, not at the line, (2) step in a tad and hit a good shot to the other/same side, again not very close to the lines, (3) once got an even shorter/comfortable ball - approach DTL and finish at net. Approach may be a deep 1st volley, if he gives you deep floater.
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
Thats what good pushers do and you would be suprized how effective they can be, up till quite a high level where players start to get better at dealing with no pace balls.

so now you are saying you are not high level yet, or that junior player of yours is still low level..... well we all know that don't we, from countless 'i can't beat pusher' threads here?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
so now you are saying you are not high level yet, or that junior player of yours is still low level..... well we all know that don't we, from countless 'i can't beat pusher' threads here?

He has been playing less than two years you ignoramus.

J
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
He has been playing less than two years you ignoramus.

J

who FiReFTW? how would I know... I already played 3.5 hours today with another 1.5 to come later... unlike you guys just hang around the forum and talk tennis.

from his 'me vs. Fed' picture post you'd assume he puts himself in the 'high level' category.

and I tell ya, do 5 hours a day and several days in a row, your brain will beg you, please, find the most efficient way to play this damn game, otherwise it's too much suffering for the body.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
who FiReFTW? how would I know... I already played 3.5 hours today with another 1.5 to come later... unlike you guys just hang around the forum and talk tennis.

from his 'me vs. Fed' picture post you'd assume he puts himself in the 'high level' category.

Take a video of your next 1.5 hours and post it.

That would make me happy.

J
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Usually in tournaments, I either win the whole thing, or lose to a pusher. The reason that I lose to them is because I have absolutely no shot tolerance. Do you guys have any tips on not always going for big angles, or beating pushers?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Hmm. People can have poor shot tolerance against big hitters too but maybe this video will help.
I suspect you have to be patient for the right ball to attack and not over-hit the finishing shot. As usual its about using footwork and to rob the pusher of time.
 
Last edited:

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
To add to this, delete your argument because it is not helping this forum at all.

If there weren't arguments, there wouldn't be any forum.

You should be thankful for people like us who keep this place going.

You want help? Post relevant information, your level, UTR, what tournaments you win, coaching situation, weekly training, etc.

You want to know how to get shot tolerance? Hit a lot of balls with people better or more consistent than you and put a premium on not missing, work on your legs, take note of what balls you miss and drill them specifically.

Can I go back to arguing with this guy who can't coach or play now your magesty, supreme decision maker on who can post what?

J
 

Hunter Rice

New User
First off, your analysis may be slightly flawed: if you had zero shot tolerance, how are you winning tournaments? The only possible way is to have a huge serve that can't be returned and Agassi-like returns. Assuming this is not the case, you're winning because your opponents all tend to play the same style as you but you are better at it. You don't have zero shot tolerance but a high enough shot tolerance that it suffices to beat the competition.

The pusher is a completely different animal: his main game plan is to hit high % shots [which often means little spin or pace] in the fat part of the court and to allow you the opportunity to make the first mistake. Since most points end in an error anyway, the odds are on his side against those with low shot tolerance. Trying to beat this type of player solely by trying to achieve a higher shot tolerance is probably a losing battle [although a higher shot tolerance will serve you well in general].

For example, I wouldn't bother trying to run faster than Usain Bolt: no matter what I do to my technique, I'm not going to beat him at his own game. To win, I have to change the terms of engagement: turn it into something other than a mere foot race. Let's say he's a terrible juggler and I change the race rules to state that one must continually juggle as one is moving. I'd win the race.

Back to the pusher, the way to improve is to stop playing his game: don't go for winners just because the ball is slow and sitting up for you. Continue to hit intelligently aggressively but to large targets: don't aim for lines. Aim 5' inside the line to give yourself plenty of margin. As you improve, your targets can shrink. But against the pusher, keep your targets large. Eventually, he'll cough up a short ball that you can put away. This is where your shot tolerance will pay off.

For me, a better strategy against the pusher is to go back to the Usain Bolt analogy: how do I change the rules of engagement? By either coming to the net or getting him to come to the net. Both are yanking him out of his CZ [comfort zone] and making him hit shots he doesn't like hitting. As long as his discomfort goes up more than yours, it's a potentially winning strategy.

If you come to the net, he will have to attempt a passing shot: if he hits the same high % shot as if you were on the baseline, you can attack that with a volley: hitting a winner with a volley when you're mere feet from the net is much easier than with a ground stroke from 39' away from the net. So he instead has to be more aggressive with his shot, something he hates to do. The result is that his error rate will go up big time.

One caveat: beware the lob because it's coming.

If you force him to the net [for example, by hitting shots so short that it's not wise to retreat because he'd be out of balance], now you can make him volley or hit OHs; again, he likely isn't comfortable doing this.

In either case, you've shifted the advantage to you. Yes, neither style may be to your liking. But it's better than trying to beat Usain Bolt in a footrace.

You're correct, I worded that very weirdly. I have pretty good shot tolerance, but not against pushers.

I remember reading about the strategy you recommended to me in Brad Gilbert's book, "Winning Ugly". My only probelp with this is that I can't hit a decent approach shot without any pace, plus the guy im talking about is really good at the net.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
You're correct, I worded that very weirdly. I have pretty good shot tolerance, but not against pushers.

I remember reading about the strategy you recommended to me in Brad Gilbert's book, "Winning Ugly". My only probelp with this is that I can't hit a decent approach shot without any pace,

So at least you know what you have to practice: have someone hit paceless shots to you and get better at your approaches.

Also, you do you define "decent"? As a net attacker, I define it as a shot where my opponent doesn't have an easy passing shot opportunity. He might still pass me but it won't be a gimme. Maybe your criteria for "decent" is too strict: it's better to get the approach in and give your opponent the chance to make an error than try for too much and make the error yourself. If you're getting passed more than half of the time, then you have to have more aggressive approaches. But if you're making errors on half of them, you'll never know if a more conservative approach would have been adequate.

plus the guy im talking about is really good at the net.

I wouldn't call him a pusher, then. No pusher I've ever run into is good at the net.

So given that he's good at the net, the "bring him into the net" strategy is a bad idea. You'll have to either develop your shot-making with large targets and/or get better at your approaches.
 

Hunter Rice

New User
If there weren't arguments, there wouldn't be any forum.

You should be thankful for people like us who keep this place going.

You want help? Post relevant information, your level, UTR, what tournaments you win, coaching situation, weekly training, etc.

J

Relevant information like not arguing about who's the better player in a thread about beating pushers
 

Hunter Rice

New User
So at least you know what you have to practice: have someone hit paceless shots to you and get better at your approaches.

Also, you do you define "decent"? As a net attacker, I define it as a shot where my opponent doesn't have an easy passing shot opportunity. He might still pass me but it won't be a gimme. Maybe your criteria for "decent" is too strict: it's better to get the approach in and give your opponent the chance to make an error than try for too much and make the error yourself. If you're getting passed more than half of the time, then you have to have more aggressive approaches. But if you're making errors on half of them, you'll never know if a more conservative approach would have been adequate.



I wouldn't call him a pusher, then. No pusher I've ever run into is good at the net.

So given that he's good at the net, the "bring him into the net" strategy is a bad idea. You'll have to either develop your shot-making with large targets and/or get better at your approaches.
Thankyou, I'll practice approach shots without any pace so that I can better come to the net against him.
 

Keendog

Professional
Hi Hunter,

How is your slice? Slice is an effective shot as it is usually easier to land in, doesn't have to be hit hard and keeps low. If it bounces really low then the pusher opponent will have to hit up on it and if they can't generate a lot of pace then that might give you a volley to put away. Now might be a good time to round out all your other strokes, slices, drop shots and volleys. You probably enjoy hitting hard from the baseline more but you won't get too far without rounding out your game so it kinda has to be done.
 

kramer woodie

Professional
Usually in tournaments, I either win the whole thing, or lose to a pusher. The reason that I lose to them is because I have absolutely no shot tolerance. Do you guys have any tips on not always going for big angles, or beating pushers?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Hunter Rice

The type of player you describe, commonly called a pusher, can also be labeled a grinder! Now if their a grinder/pusher type, their type of
play is to become a human wall. Every thing you hit to them is going to be returned, period. You have to accept that fact and learn to be
patient. The grinder/pusher is intent on being patient and staying in the point, to give you a chance to become impatient and hit an unforced
error.

So you have to be very patient and look for the opportunity to hit a high percentage winner. This does not mean go for power and risk hitting close to the lines. Stay within yourself (your ability level) and do not try to crush the ball. Really focus on correct technique and
contact point. Don't rush. Be patient.

Make a pusher move, side to side/forward and back, but only attempt winners if you can get a short ball up in the court that lands within
3 feet of the service court line. This is where high percentages work in your favor. Please remember this one important thing: if you get
a short ball you do not have to hit the ball 78 feet, your closer to the net and don't need as much power. You need smooth controlled
placement.

Also, please remember this: when you make your opponent move...you create angles for you opponent to hit...therefore you must
be prepared to move also. With approach shots, don't hit them slow, hit them with rally pace or slightly faster.

With a grinder/pusher tennis become a mental game like chess! You have to stay in the game a long time being patient looking for an
opportunity to win off the opponents mistake.

Aloha
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
I think a lot of people here r actually playing the pushinator. I went down to this guy 75 last week was famous for his moonballs. The problem is he also has really good defence, solid net game, drop shots and a very solid two handed backhand. I tried moonballing back, long short game, power hitting and sliced overheads. So there are plenty of people who like to push but have a whole lot more in reserve
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Yes, usually when I play people who put more pace on the ball I can win most points against them, but when I play someone without any pace, I tend to hit more balls wide than usual. If I slow down my strokes and just hit it over, they can out it me.

From your description, when you play against someone who bashes or puts pace on the ball, you and he are competing on who's worse less on hitting out. You will come out ahead if you bash less balls out.

But when you compete with someone who intends to keep the ball in, you're actually competing on who's better at tennis. It takes actual skills and athleticism to keep the ball in.

Think about it, any two guys (regardless of level) can bash the ball out and you still have a winner at the end. You might call that tennis, but really, no hitting skill or any running is really needed. But nobody considers tennis without some valid hitting and movement. Numerous threads here say so. :)
 

styksnstryngs

Professional
The only tip that I can personally say worked for me is to outwork them in practice so you just become straight up better than them. Those soft balls start to look like easy putaways because they are.
 

zaph

Professional
I am a defensive player, bit more of a counter puncher, because I can generate pace when I want to, but I also have high enough shot tolerance to trouble weaker big hitting players at my club.

You are wasting your time trying to blast the ball through a player like me, if I can get a racket to it, it will be heading back. Your pace will often be self defeating, it narrows the angles you can hit and makes it easier to reach. Even if I haven't got time for a topspin shot, I can block it, half volley it or squash shot it. After all it doesn't matter where I put it, you will go for another massive winner and you will miss eventually.

The key to being steady is to hit within yourself, I rarely ever bother to hit at full power, unless I have a big scoreboard advantage and feel like messing around. Instead of trying to blast the ball through the pusher, use your superior spin and power to control the rally. Keep them on their weaker wing and wait for a ball that is easy to attack. Normally something a bit shorter.

Don't blast this when you get it, go for a short angle, use your higher court position to your advantage. Most important, assume it will come back and be ready at the net to volley anything the pusher sends back.

Defensive players like myself love opponents who hit above their ability level, we just have to wait for you to blowup. Hit within yourself and player smarter tennis.
 
you know it means thread starter

you guys shouldnt scare away decent new people with your pissing contests.

Exchange numbers and go samba dancing instead. ;)

I've been on message boards and forums since I could plug up a 14.4 modem, and I was asking myself what TS meant. Now that you've said it, it does seem vaguely familiar - and I'm questioning if I already knew that or not. Regardless, I'd pay money to see Jolly perform the samba.
 

Dan R

Professional
Usually in tournaments, I either win the whole thing, or lose to a pusher. The reason that I lose to them is because I have absolutely no shot tolerance. Do you guys have any tips on not always going for big angles, or beating pushers?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Instead of trying to pound to ball into the corner, when you get the mid court sitter just angle it off the court. The idea is to have the ball bounce in the service box and the next bounce would be outside the doubles alley. If they get it they will be hitting on the run playing a ball that's at their ankles, step in and volley that ball into the open court. Pusher's don't usually like to come forward it's not their thing.
 
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