The Meaninglessness of Life, it doesn't really matter?

MTChong said:

I think one key point you're missing is that there is a sort of self-prescribed morality and ethics system in an existentialist point of view.

People are driven by their self-interests and as such, there will be lots of conflicting interests. However, nobody wants to die as they want to gain as much power and the such as possible. Therefore, though they are totally free to do whatever they want, they will only do things that they feel others should also be able to do. It's similar to the neighbor principle: in existentialism, because you take full responsibility for all of your actions, by choosing what you do for yourself, you are choosing for all men. By lying, you say it's okay for everyone to lie to you. By killing, you are proclaiming it's okay to murder left and right.

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Oh god no, I'm a nihilist, not an existentialist, I lay no claim to morality, there is only conceivably subjective morality affecting the one, which is to me invalid. Who are you to say nobody wants to die. THAT IS A PLAIN AS DAY FALSITY. Many, many, many people want to die. You are presupposing that people should put value on their decisions, since they have meaning. They do not, it means nothing. To say I am choosing for all men is ignorant. I believe in complete freedom, to die, to live, to choose. IT IS NOT OKAY to kill and it is NOT NOT OKAY ok to kill. Your last sentence seems to be an effort to reduce my argument to absurdity (reductio ad absurdum). But it is not absurd to say that killing is ok, because it means as much as not killing, nothing.

armand said:

There's nothing like committing a crime. Taking some important rule and spitting in its face, doing something most would not dare to. That makes you feel alive. And powerful in some way. You start to look at the world through different eyes somehow and wonder how would you be thought of if they knew this dark secret.

You feel good to be alive because you are free and you could easily not be. You are a survivor.

[note: crimes should be only done against faceless, money grubby corporations which do no good in making the Earth a better place]

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Being alive is simply breathing and thus bring oxygen to your organs. It all means nothing. Feeling alive is meaningless, not feeling alive is meaningless.

I can see where you are coming from

I think alot of people have questions about life and its meanings.

But I think ur belief of the meaningless of life is based on things that we have no idea about

You don't think God exists and we're just made up of atoms

You then must think that human conciousness is just random electrical

signals inside the brain.

You also believe that the Sun will blow up and earth will cease to exist, and everything we ever did will go to waste

But the question is how do you know?

How do you know we're just made up of atoms, but not breathes of life from god?

How do you know the Big Bang was not created by God?

How do you know maybe we actually have souls? and consciousness and morality is actually a basic instinct instilled upon humanity by God?

I am definitely not saying I believe all those.

Personally, I am also a practicing Catholic with lots of doubts.

But, the thing is we have no idea about the world around us.

So why are you making judgements that life is meaningless?

Do what you think is right

We all have no idea what we are doing in this world.

Whenever we die we will know everything, maybe not.

The question of life is not "What is my purpose of Life"

It's "What should I do with my life"

Dude, are u a healthy person?If so, u should thank your lucky stars.Others have it worse then u.Quit crying, find a purpose in life.Life can be a ***** but u gotta live life as it is.How old are u?Married?Kids?

Federererererer said:

and I wouldn't, because it doesn't make me happy, all I care about is being happy, but in theory, crimes are just events in a futile existence

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Define happy.

Fine.

If you think everything is meaningless, then there is absolutely no point for you to be on these forums anymore. Why even argue your point, because whatever you say is meaningless.

You don't need your computer anymore, because it is meaningless to even own one. You don't need your room anymore, because why would you need one if your existence is meaningless. You don't need to stay with your family anymore, just move out. You don't need any friends anymore because, to you, every person's existence is apparently meaningless. You don't need to eat or sleep anymore, because whatever you eat will become nothing, and what’s the point of sleeping anyways. You don't need any laws, assistance from anyone, help from anyone - you should just leave and live your meaningless life alone instead of trying to go into some forum which you took the time to register and post 18+ threads and try to force your "meaningless" ideals on and argue post after post thinking you will make a "difference".

Leave now.

The rest of us have people we care about, other more important things to do, then to argue with you and your "meaningless" ideals.

Collectively, in the grand scheme of things, humans have zero meaning in the universe.

But that doesn't mean we can't have fun and get laid once in a while.

Federererererer said:

You are blind. MORALITY IS INVALID, read Nietzsche, don't take my word for it. No one should say what is right and wrong, because no one has the authority to do so.

ARGUMENT ONE OF WHY MORALITY IS CRAP:
We are all a bunch of atoms joined together, no one is anymore capable than anyone else of judging the world. We are all the same, NO ONE HAS THE AUTHORITY TO SAY WHAT ANOTHER CAN OR CAN'T DO. Its silly, logic says so.

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Do you really think that logic is all there is to life? Perhaps you need to have a child that you love dearly before you decide to dispose of all of civilization and morality.

Since you like Nietzche...

Nietzsche said:

What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil.

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Federererererer said:

ARGUMENT TWO OF WHY MORALITY IS CRAP:
Morality is based upon what is good and bad, which is stupid and invalid. Everything we do brings the same end, nothing, WE HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE UNIVERSE OR TIME, our attempts at change are futile. Therefore, logic says, ramming a car into a tree is no more good or bad than eating a lolly pop, IT MEANS NOTHING, so therefore, THERE IS NO GOOD OR BAD, just event A and event B. Don't fall victim to religious and political rhetoric. FREE YOURSELF. THE WORLD IS STRIPPING YOU OF YOUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!

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Wow, you really are confused.

Nietzsche said:

The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.

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Objective morality may not exist, but that isn't necessary for life to have meaning. God isn't necessary for life to have meaning.

Let me ask you, even if a moral God exists, can't I disagree with what he calls moral. God's existence doesn't make my life any more or less important. It's up to me what is important. And to me, it's my family, the people I care about, and justice in the world. We create meaning and live with it.

Aren't you basically saying that without God, nothing matters. If so, you need to study a bit about humanism. I can assure you that Nietzsche didn't agree.

Federererererer said:

You are blind. MORALITY IS INVALID, read Nietzsche, don't take my word for it. No one should say what is right and wrong, because no one has the authority to do so.

ARGUMENT ONE OF WHY MORALITY IS CRAP:
We are all a bunch of atoms joined together, no one is anymore capable than anyone else of judging the world. We are all the same, NO ONE HAS THE AUTHORITY TO SAY WHAT ANOTHER CAN OR CAN'T DO. Its silly, logic says so.

ARGUMENT TWO OF WHY MORALITY IS CRAP:
Morality is based upon what is good and bad, which is stupid and invalid. Everything we do brings the same end, nothing, WE HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE UNIVERSE OR TIME, our attempts at change are futile. Therefore, logic says, ramming a car into a tree is no more good or bad than eating a lolly pop, IT MEANS NOTHING, so therefore, THERE IS NO GOOD OR BAD, just event A and event B. Don't fall victim to religious and political rhetoric. FREE YOURSELF. THE WORLD IS STRIPPING YOU OF YOUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!

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If it wasn't for morality, humans would be endangered or extinct right now. The only way to accept the way life and the universe are, is to live it while focusing on RIGHT NOW, and not worry about the future. Worry about enjoying your short time here on earth, and the only way that will be possible is to follow a moral code, otherwise you will end up in prison or killed. Treat others how you want to be treated and your life will be more enjoyable with the least amount of problems. Thats really the best way to live your life, giving the circumstances.

Federererererer said:

side comments other than what I asked of nihilism and the futility of life, where they tried to define me and what I am

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Nobody here cares enough to try to "define" you. You're coming off as extremely self-centered here. Maybe a little less shoe-gazing would help.

Federererererer said:

Here is my answer to that and to several other comments. I have read more nihilist/existential books than anyone here I think (maybe not, but probably). Sartre, Camus, Kundera, Nietzsche, Turgenev and several others. (I recommend "The Dark Side: Thoughts on the Futility of Life by Pratt). I have kissed a girl, and have a big family, BUT THIS DOES NOT STOP ME FROM SEEING THE TRUTH. Life is pointless, SEVERAL ASTRO PHYSICISTS all concur that the sun will one day "die" and engulf the Earth and destroy it, effectively removing the existence of human life, if an asteroid or super-volcano hadn't done the job already. If you religious folk want to deny evolution and the big bang and such and want to believe that the Earth was created by magic go on ahead, it means nothing, do what makes you happy. But I don't think anyone here can deny that any logical look at existence leads to the fact that no one has any clout on anything in this universe. I would think that EVERYONE HERE has to admit that this life we live means nothing, and as such (in response to the guy I quoted) WHO IS TO SAY WHAT IS GOOD AND NOT GOOD, when every act means nothing in the end and brings the same outcome......nothing. The only "good" if it can be called that, is doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that makes you happy (i.g. tennis) and place little emphasis on "good or bad" since that is subjective, and not objective. There are no objective morals. "MAKING THE WORLD BETTER"???? It will all end anyway, no matter what, so there is no better or worse.

Living my way is the way to go, because it absolutely frees you from all contraints and allows you to do whatever you want, even believe in God. It doesn't matter, accept it.

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Hmm, " place little emphasis on good or bad/subjective." - that's what Stalin said as he killed...how many peasants ? You don't have to be religious to see the difference between good and evil, even the writers of the 'Constitution' weren't all biblisists (s?) but saw the " Ten Commandments" as a way to hold society together, I mean if morality was all relative and the majority of the populace held that view, we'd start to decay, as we're starting to see now IMO.

Life is short, without meaning or purpouse and, in the end an abyss of nothingness awaits us- but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Value, meaning, purpouse- these are all psycholological constructs, shared delusions.

I also believe that it is better to confront existence as clear-headed as possible, without diluting/distorting the experience with lies, drugs, religions.

Having said that, To give the fact that existence is meaningless, any significance at all, and make choices based on that fact, is, in effect giving meaninglesness, some meaning

When something has no meaning you simply ignore it and go on, you do not react to it in horror and despair and change the direction of your life.

A wealthy man (or say a child actor/star) who loses everything will sometimes commit suicide. And, yet, someone born into poverty, who has lived with nothing all of his life seldom thinks of suicide as an option. In a sense, the one man has lost his illusions and finds it difficult to go on, the other never had anything at all.

The animals in nature do not require meaning or purpous to exist, they simply do. Man's situation is somewhat different only because he is more self-aware and equiped to deal with symbols.

From the time we are children, we begin to learn- without even being taught. We do that because we (unlike most animals) find meaning in sounds and scribbles and actions. Some of us extend this basic learning process and and find "meaning" where there is really just self delusion.

Chuck away the misguided illusions, and we still have self-awareness that distinguishes us from the other species.

And yet, so what? You see things, you are aware, you eat and you sleep, you live in such-and-such a place, you make choices, you go on.

When we speak of freedom, we speak of freedom from self-deception/somnambulism, not freedom from everything else.

B

tennis_nerd22 said:

if we have knowingly sinned many times and are punished, we come back to earth again, most likely as animals.

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Looks like you're going to have a new "leash on life."

I hope I don't return as some weirdos sheep

your nothing but a hedonist trying to use this as an excuse.

I agree with DiabloTS,

To derive any life-philosophy, whatsoever, from meaninglessness, is to make an inherently false assumption. Juvenile thinking.Certainly not an excuse to run amok.

It is interesting, though, that the world view of the nihlist and that of many religons is essencially the same.

Many religions see this life, and the world we live in as bleak, a wasteland, a place of horrors.

For the religous, the "way out" is to accept the secret "meaning/purpous" that is available only to their particular franchise. Doing so, you become "one of them" and will learn the truth after you are dead (very convenient).

Of course, this view devalues life, itself. We suffer holocausts, wars, atrocities, famine, ignorance and inhumanity, because suffering is the gateway for some future reward.

For the true non-believer, nothing excists except this wan, brief light.

If there is anything to be suggested by lack of meaning, it is that this small dollop of life is all there is-- and, therefore, all the more precious for its brevity.

Why are you all thinking that not having meaning is bad. It is good, it is freedom!!!!!!!!!!

From what I've read, true rational nihlism is in recognizing the "homeostatic" flux of any moral or political system. That is, they're not stating that morals or social codes are "meaningless", but that they are only meaningfully exist contextually and match the circumstances of the environment around.

And so as I take it -- nihlism argues that, in a truly dynamic environment in accordance with nature, morals and such are and should be recognized as unstable and "subject to change." Therefore, any rigid structure (i.e. religion) is "evil" because it seeks to take man away from his accordance with nature (which is "freedom"), which causes human misery. Moreover, any humanistic attempt to identify nature is also rejected, since it evitably leads to a rigid, abstract concepts and the dynamic, unknown flux of the material universe.

THAT SAID, most nascent would-be nihlists interpret Nietzsche's dictum as "the only rules worth living are MY rules." That itself isn't true nihlism either, but egoistic, self-centered thinking. What is the meaning of life? Living for me!! I am not my morals. Almost all other existential philosophers, however, blanche from this viewpoint. Many of them, after all, came out of the first world war and were deeply horrified by what men would do to each other for the sake of their own "meaning."

I personally ascribe to the great philosopher Conan --

Mongol: What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!

tennisnerd, please take your religious preaching elsewhere. Trainor pretty much ripped you apart in this thread.

tricky said:

From what I've read, true rational nihlism is in recognizing the "homeostatic" flux of any moral or political system. That is, they're not stating that morals or social codes are "meaningless", but that they are only meaningfully exist contextually and match the circumstances of the environment around.

And so as I take it -- nihlism argues that, in a truly dynamic environment in accordance with nature, morals and such are and should be recognized as unstable and "subject to change." Therefore, any rigid structure (i.e. religion) is "evil" because it seeks to take man away from his accordance with nature (which is "freedom"), which causes human misery. Moreover, any humanistic attempt to identify nature is also rejected, since it evitably leads to a rigid, abstract concepts and the dynamic, unknown flux of the material universe.

THAT SAID, most nascent would-be nihlists interpret Nietzsche's dictum as "the only rules worth living are MY rules." That itself isn't true nihlism either, but egoistic, self-centered thinking. What is the meaning of life? Living for me!! I am not my morals. Almost all other existential philosophers, however, blanche from this viewpoint. Many of them, after all, came out of the first world war and were deeply horrified by what men would do to each other for the sake of their own "meaning."

I personally ascribe to the great philosopher Conan --

Mongol: What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!

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Great post.

just try to be as happy as you can then, that's the whole point of life.

tricky said:

From what I've read, true rational nihlism is in recognizing the "homeostatic" flux of any moral or political system. That is, they're not stating that morals or social codes are "meaningless", but that they are only meaningfully exist contextually and match the circumstances of the environment around.

And so as I take it -- nihlism argues that, in a truly dynamic environment in accordance with nature, morals and such are and should be recognized as unstable and "subject to change." Therefore, any rigid structure (i.e. religion) is "evil" because it seeks to take man away from his accordance with nature (which is "freedom"), which causes human misery. Moreover, any humanistic attempt to identify nature is also rejected, since it evitably leads to a rigid, abstract concepts and the dynamic, unknown flux of the material universe.

THAT SAID, most nascent would-be nihlists interpret Nietzsche's dictum as "the only rules worth living are MY rules." That itself isn't true nihlism either, but egoistic, self-centered thinking. What is the meaning of life? Living for me!! I am not my morals. Almost all other existential philosophers, however, blanche from this viewpoint. Many of them, after all, came out of the first world war and were deeply horrified by what men would do to each other for the sake of their own "meaning."

I personally ascribe to the great philosopher Conan --

Mongol: What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!

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You are free to take nihilism as you want, that said, I hope you are not implying that I am a nascent would-be nihilist who says the "only rules worth living are My rules," because I thought I made it clear that I know even my "rules" are meaningless. It is so easy to refute any comment made against my philosophy, because all I really need to say is, nothing matters. Living is void of meaning, there is one layer of existence.....existence. So much of what you say I agree with, nearly all of it. I guess I can chalk you up as another sympathizer of the philosophy I follow.

Funny your conan philosophy is exactly what Nietzsche would call the "Will to Power."

The Gorilla said:

just try to be as happy as you can then, that's the whole point of life.

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life has no point, but being happy seems to be a logical way of living it

Bagumbawalla said:

I agree with DiabloTS,

To derive any life-philosophy, whatsoever, from meaninglessness, is to make an inherently false assumption. Juvenile thinking.Certainly not an excuse to run amok.

It is interesting, though, that the world view of the nihlist and that of many religons is essencially the same.

Many religions see this life, and the world we live in as bleak, a wasteland, a place of horrors.

For the religous, the "way out" is to accept the secret "meaning/purpous" that is available only to their particular franchise. Doing so, you become "one of them" and will learn the truth after you are dead (very convenient).

Of course, this view devalues life, itself. We suffer holocausts, wars, atrocities, famine, ignorance and inhumanity, because suffering is the gateway for some future reward.

For the true non-believer, nothing excists except this wan, brief light.

If there is anything to be suggested by lack of meaning, it is that this small dollop of life is all there is-- and, therefore, all the more precious for its brevity.

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Inherently false assumption???? Nihilism is based on scientific fact. It is logic. No one can honestly tell me (unless you believe in that Houdini Earth created in seven days crap) that life accomplishes anything.......there by meaning it mind as well have never existed, making it the same as not existing, making it meaningless. "Of course, this view devalues life, itself. We suffer holocausts, wars, atrocities, famine, ignorance and inhumanity, because suffering is the gateway for some future reward." That was all meaningless, the Earth will eventually cease to exist and that will have no bearing on it. Stop dwelling on the past, it meant nothing.

"If there is anything to be suggested by lack of meaning, it is that this small dollop of life is all there is-- and, therefore, all the more precious for its brevity" What ignorance. LIFE IS ALL THERE IS FOR YOU. It is not objectively precious, and has no meaning. The universe is infinite. One hundred quadrillion lightyears away you are not even a thought. It is precious to you sure, but that does not make it precious. Live happily. Believe in your subjective opinions, don't be told what to do, just know it means nothing, AND YOURE FREE.

"Many religions see this life, and the world we live in as bleak, a wasteland, a place of horrors." Whose to say what is bleak, wasteful, and horrible when it changes nothing and means nothing. What ignorance.

Funny your conan philosophy is exactly what Nietzsche would call the "Will to Power."

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Ah, well, I just like the movie. However, many people do view the Conan mythology as an example of the superman ideal. It's possible Robert Howard's argument for an enlightened primitivism probably came out of reading Nietzsche, since it's almost a perfect expression of that philosophy.

The best expression of nihlism to me is I know I believe in nothing but it is my nothing

Nihilism is actually at most odds not with religion (again, utterly incompatible because constructivism is not recognized as a dialectic within nihilism), but with existentialists. Existentialists, in valuing responsibility and the burden of uncertain but necessary beliefs, ultimately values civilization and social structure, an assignment to a belief system with other people, as necessary to confront nature in a commiseration.

Nihilism argues that the despair is really an anxiety of noncommittal; it is existentialism's insistence on still attaching some humanistic framework upon nature, moaning about the Other as if existentialism were her lost son. The Nihilist says all you can do is live in accordance with Nature, and that this cannot be done in relation with other people. Existentialism is a skeptic philosophy; nihilism is a process of contempt. Some nihilists argue that this is really an Enlightment; where you drive off the shacles of of Reason itself in favor of a sensuous, instinctive , in-from-out immediacy.

It is so easy to refute any comment made against my philosophy, because all I really need to say is, nothing matters.

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Therein lies the problem that existentialists have with nihilism. From their point of view, nihilism is not a philosophy, but a rhetorical strategy in order to force the opponent to continue the dialectic recursively until they give up. There is no correct answer to "so what?" except "you and I cannot finish this argument." The ego, the essential awareness of living, is preserved and allowed to proliferate further.

This whole thread is meaningless!

Too much thinkin' and not enough doin'! Get the **** out there and do something instead of just sitting on your arse and staring at the ****en wall.

armand said:

This whole thread is meaningless!

Too much thinkin' and not enough doin'! Get the **** out there and do something instead of just sitting on your arse and staring at the ****en wall.

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LMAO

In other words, Nike is the best philosopher out there: "just do it"

It is interesting that people who are in crisis situations, war, famine, severe poverty, etc. are the least likely to question life's meaning. I mean, it is pretty hard to philosophize when you havent eaten in three days and your belly aches so much that you lie in your own vomit.

Studies suggest that suicides are much much less during war for example, when you are in daily fear for your life, because you dont have time to think about meaning etc. Every action is meaningful then because you are focused, and life has direction, which is pure survival.

How did anything come about? who knows. The argument by religious people is god created it. who created god? stop asking sillly questions you blasphemer, god didnt need to be created

and science? yes a big bang created us. what was there before the big bang. a collapsed universe. and before that? a big bang...HUH???

We may never know, and if atheists are right, we will never know since at death we cease to exist. So what else is there?

Be happy, live, give your own meaning to life. and dont forget to bagel your favorite opponent, and when that happens, say yup that is the meaning of life LOL

Federer...,

You seem to get really worked up about things, that, obviously, have no meaning, value, purpose- including logic, the opinions of others, and your own, which, in theory, are all equally meaningless. I suspect you are an amusing fraud.

Still, this has been fun,

B

Federererererer said:

life has no point, but being happy seems to be a logical way of living it

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It's the reason we do what we do, it's the point of our lives.

I understand what you mean though, I just interpreted it incorrectly.

I don't see why there we have to have been put here purposefully to be happy, or how it impacts our life in any way.

arnz said:

LMAO

In other words, Nike is the best philosopher out there: "just do it"

It is interesting that people who are in crisis situations, war, famine, severe poverty, etc. are the least likely to question life's meaning. I mean, it is pretty hard to philosophize when you havent eaten in three days and your belly aches so much that you lie in your own vomit.

Studies suggest that suicides are much much less during war for example, when you are in daily fear for your life, because you dont have time to think about meaning etc. Every action is meaningful then because you are focused, and life has direction, which is pure survival.

How did anything come about? who knows. The argument by religious people is god created it. who created god? stop asking sillly questions you blasphemer, god didnt need to be created

and science? yes a big bang created us. what was there before the big bang. a collapsed universe. and before that? a big bang...HUH???

We may never know, and if atheists are right, we will never know since at death we cease to exist. So what else is there?

Be happy, live, give your own meaning to life. and dont forget to bagel your favorite opponent, and when that happens, say yup that is the meaning of life LOL

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maybe theuniverse was always here, it didn't ave a beginning.

Federererer what are you trying to say.

angharad said:

The fact that we're here at all is amazing. When you think about all the things that could have happened in the formation of our galaxy or solar system that would have destroyed it before the advent of life, or the fact that life on this planet was able to develop at all despite the odds...that's a pretty big reason to live.

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Wow, I have had other discussions on this and I dont have the energy to debate witha bunch of athiests. But I like what this guy said from what I quoted. If you really think about it, thinking about life itself and how it has developed here, and looking at all the infinite planets and galaxies where scientists know life as we know it cant exist, to me that is one sign pointing to a God. Think how chaotic life could be. Our bodies itself are wonderous works. Im sure you can think of other things, theres so many, but this tells me there was a creator.

There is no meaning to life other than the here and now if you dont accept God. There is eternity if you do. We can debate the existance of God on this thread forever, but it cant be PROVED one way or another. Some people have the BELIEF, other believe differently. So we can choose what we want. Religion is religion, thats man made. God and Jesus have nothing to do with religion. Just because bad people say they are religious and God followers, does not make it true. Dont turn yourself away though from a higher meaning of life because of a bad experience in life this way. Just really think about everything for yourself; this is a good discussion to get people thinking. Really think about yourself and life, and youll come to your own belief about these things, and what you want out of life. Be open minded to the different ideas and beliefs, and judge them. Get ALL the information and dont rely on partial info and bias. Youll discover what you believe to be true.

The Gorilla said:

maybe theuniverse was always here, it didn't ave a beginning.

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You maybe right...but it blows my imagination when somebody says something was alwasy here...

its like me finding food in my kitchen table, and I ask where did it come from? and somebody says, nowhere, the food was always there. I say, thats BS how can the food have always been there.


But in the end, no matter how the food got there, I'll make sure to eat it

DiabloTS said:

Federererer what are you trying to say.

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do whatever you want

ok then do whatever you want, stop *****ing

TonLars said:

Wow, I have had other discussions on this and I dont have the energy to debate witha bunch of athiests. But I like what this guy said from what I quoted. If you really think about it, thinking about life itself and how it has developed here, and looking at all the infinite planets and galaxies where scientists know life as we know it cant exist, to me that is one sign pointing to a God. Think how chaotic life could be. Our bodies itself are wonderous works. Im sure you can think of other things, theres so many, but this tells me there was a creator.

There is no meaning to life other than the here and now if you dont accept God. There is eternity if you do. We can debate the existance of God on this thread forever, but it cant be PROVED one way or another. Some people have the BELIEF, other believe differently. So we can choose what we want. Religion is religion, thats man made. God and Jesus have nothing to do with religion. Just because bad people say they are religious and God followers, does not make it true. Dont turn yourself away though from a higher meaning of life because of a bad experience in life this way. Just really think about everything for yourself; this is a good discussion to get people thinking. Really think about yourself and life, and youll come to your own belief about these things, and what you want out of life. Be open minded to the different ideas and beliefs, and judge them. Get ALL the information and dont rely on partial info and bias. Youll discover what you believe to be true.

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Dude this is random, but whats ur NTRP?

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. People are always so sad for nothing, and it's really annoying to be around. How about you realize that your life isn't as bad as you think it is and live it because despite what you may think every little thing you do in life matters and will affect the life of those around you and your own life. You are truly selfish and have never stopped to consider those around you if you do whatever you want. BTW I am agnostic. If you arent doing this just cause you feel sorry for yourself then you do need professional help.

DiabloTS said:

Dude this is random, but whats ur NTRP?

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lol that is kinda random, but thats ok. Why do you ask? Anyways, Im a 5.5 I guess; just finished some good college tennis and now im trying to play some Futures circuit tournaments and see how that goes before I get a tennis teaching/coaching job somewhere.

so it looks to me like you just came upon some philosophy gold mine and you thought it makes a lot of sense so you are trying to get the rest of us to jump on the bandwagon like you did. well guess what. us atoms will do what we want, and your atoms can do what you want. end of story. dont try to convince us thats so hypocritical you just said that it doesnt matter whatever you try to do its just event A or B so stop.

zapvor said:

so it looks to me like you just came upon some philosophy gold mine and you thought it makes a lot of sense so you are trying to get the rest of us to jump on the bandwagon like you did. well guess what. us atoms will do what we want, and your atoms can do what you want. end of story. dont try to convince us thats so hypocritical you just said that it doesnt matter whatever you try to do its just event A or B so stop.

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what? lol, what are you trying to say and who are you talking to?

TonLars said:

what? lol, what are you trying to say and who are you talking to?

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the original post. not you.

oh ok lol sorry. I was wondering why that would be at me lol. Hopefully the OP was just having a bad day or emo or something. Maybe today he is at Disneyworld

TonLars said:

There is no meaning to life other than the here and now if you dont accept God. There is eternity if you do.

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How do you know what the qualifications are to spend an eternity with God? We can all agree that nobody understands how God can create the universe, but how can so many people understand God's decision-making without hearing it from him firsthand?

Let me ask you this, if a child was raised by atheist parents who taught him his entire life that there was no God, would you still say that he is not going to be with god when he dies, assuming he grows up to be an atheist? Alot of a person's mental development is almost hardwired during their early childhood enough to make it impossible to undo. As an example, I have the belief that most serial killers and pedophiles are not inherently bad people, but people who went through some really traumatic experience(s) as a child that led to their behavior; But most people are too ignorant to believe anything except that the person is evil.

raiden031 said:

How do you know what the qualifications are to spend an eternity with God? We can all agree that nobody understands how God can create the universe, but how can so many people understand God's decision-making without hearing it from him firsthand?

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It says in the Bible very clearly. You must accept that Jesus died for your sins as the way, for you as a sinner, to get into Heaven. He paid the penalty. You must also accept Christ "into your heart" and truly try live for him, and ask forgiveness for your sins. If you want specific verses from the Bible, I can try to give those to you. I do understand what youre saying, and Im with you in some ways. Too many people are caught up in religion, which is man made, and man made rituals and rules. If you study and live by the only form of the word of God that we have been given, then that is all you can do.

raiden031 said:

Let me ask you this, if a child was raised by atheist parents who taught him his entire life that there was no God, would you still say that he is not going to be with god when he dies, assuming he grows up to be an atheist? Alot of a person's mental development is almost hardwired during their early childhood enough to make it impossible to undo. As an example, I have the belief that most serial killers and pedophiles are not inherently bad people, but people who went through some really traumatic experience(s) as a child that led to their behavior; But most people are too ignorant to believe anything except that the person is evil

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It depends on what the child believes when he grows up later and dies. I understand, one definitely is socialized and raised a certain way, but when youre older, you have access to information from all sides and have to make decisions and evaluate everything for yourself and ask questions. Otherwise one can just choose to stubbornly accept what you were simply always told, which is then not truly real or your own belief in that way. It is important to have doubts, and question everything and come to your own beliefs and ideas. Then they are your own and become stronger. It is simply my belief by thinking about various concepts and facts that there must be a God.

Hopefully this thread doesnt turn into an obnoxious debate about atheism vs God... lol. Im no expert, but I am not in the dark, and Im just giving my understanding, belief and point of view to this discussion, and answering your question. Ill be happy to continue answering questions and talking, but I DONT want people to start flaming me and tell me to "stop preaching". Im not intending to preach or necessarily change people's beliefs. Like Ive said, just take all the facts and judge what you believe, and youll come to your own truths.

TonLars said:

It says in the Bible very clearly. You must accept that Jesus died for your sins as the way, for you as a sinner, to get into Heaven. He paid the penalty. You must also accept Christ "into your heart" and truly try live for him, and ask forgiveness for your sins. If you want specific verses from the Bible, I can try to give those to you. I do understand what youre saying, and Im with you in some ways. Too many people are caught up in religion, which is man made, and man made rituals and rules. If you study and live by the only form of the word of God that we have been given, then that is all you can do.



It depends on what the child believes when he grows up later and dies. I understand, one definitely is socialized and raised a certain way, but when youre older, you have access to information from all sides and have to make decisions and evaluate everything for yourself and ask questions. Otherwise one can just choose to stubbornly accept what you were simply always told, which is then not truly real or your own belief in that way. It is important to have doubts, and question everything and come to your own beliefs and ideas. Then they are your own and become stronger. It is simply my belief by thinking about various concepts and facts that there must be a God.

Hopefully this thread doesnt turn into an obnoxious debate about atheism vs God... lol. Im no expert, but I am not in the dark, and Im just giving my understanding, belief and point of view to this discussion, and answering your question. Ill be happy to continue answering questions and talking, but I DONT want people to start flaming me and tell me to "stop preaching". Im not intending to preach or necessarily change people's beliefs. Like Ive said, just take all the facts and judge what you believe, and youll come to your own truths.

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Lets be honest, every piece of scientific data point to there being no God. If anything, the diety that does exist is not the one described by the Bible, Torah, Qur'an, etc. The main point here, is that no matter what the human race does, it can affect nothing in this infinite universe. Therefore, everything we do has the same significance as everything else we could have done. For example, blowing up a building in the long run means the same thing as walking your dog. Granted, the subjective world says the former is far more "stupid" than the latter, but objectively, it means nothing. I am not denying he existence of the subjective psyche/world. All I am saying is that he objective world proves more valid and useful in the infinite, unending existence of time. Free YOURSELF!

Please no flaming of TonLars

I am not addressing anyone in particular, and personally disagree with his views here (since I am not religious). However, considering his tennis credentials now that I looked at them, he is one of the best players on these forums (along with SydneyJim, serveitup911 and Yondan), and the only one of that group who cares to post at a frequency higher than monthly, and on various tennis and non-tennis subject matters. We are collectively fortunate to have him here and should treat his posts with attention and respect.

To the OP - are you emo? It seems that you are, you have no time to lose, burn all your clothes, I'm sure they're emo too. Drop that studded belt, now! You only have one chance to de-emoify you before it's permanent, if it's not already. Nows you're chance, take it!

SoBad said:

I am not addressing anyone in particular, and personally disagree with his views here (since I am not religious). However, considering his tennis credentials now that I looked at them, he is one of the best players on these forums (along with SydneyJim, serveitup911 and Yondan), and the only one of that group who cares to post at a frequency higher than monthly, and on various tennis and non-tennis subject matters. We are collectively fortunate to have him here and should treat his posts with attention and respect.

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haha thanks man, yeah this is touchy ground and I dont want to get in anyones face about this stuff. Yeah I just joined these boards last fall and I have had fun talking on here about various things, mostly about tennis! So yes im just trying to have a discussion so I hope nobody gets upset with me bringing in the other perspective here

TonLars said:

haha thanks man, yeah this is touchy ground and I dont want to get in anyones face about this stuff. Yeah I just joined these boards last fall and I have had fun talking on here about various things, mostly about tennis! So yes im just trying to have a discussion so I hope nobody gets upset with me bringing in the other perspective here

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Dude, don't worry about upsetting people on this forum, some of the ones flaming you have been upset long before you got here, I think Please know that many of us here appreciate hearing on tennis or nontennis from an accomplished player like you. While there are mindless postings and flamings going around at times, there are some good people, ideas, thoughtful discussions going on at times, and I hope you stick around and speak your mind on various matters!

Federererererer said:

Lets be honest, every piece of scientific data point to there being no God.

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Thats not true. Theres definitely no proof one way or the other of Gods existence. I cant prove to you his existence since nobody here has ever seen or heard him, thats true. It is based on a belief which myself and others have came to through indirect means. Please give me an example of science that "proves" God doesnt exist. Many well known and public athiests in debates on this subject have conceded this fact, so you would be onto something new. To cover this in general, there is no reason to think God has nothing to do with science. When creating everything, it wouldnt make sense to me that it was like a work of magic necessarily that had nothing to do with science as we know it. For whatever theories or evidence that is ever found on Earth, it can certainly be plausible that it was a work of God behind it and not the material world alone. Like for the "Big Bang" theory for example, who is to say that when God created, that this Big Bang was not involved with that? Or evolution, who is to say that evolution disagrees with the concept of God? Short term evolution cannot be denied, and theres no reason long term evolution wasnt intended ya know?

Federererererer said:

If anything, the diety that does exist is not the one described by the Bible, Torah, Qur'an, etc. The main point here, is that no matter what the human race does, it can affect nothing in this infinite universe. Therefore, everything we do has the same significance as everything else we could have done. For example, blowing up a building in the long run means the same thing as walking your dog. Granted, the subjective world says the former is far more "stupid" than the latter, but objectively, it means nothing. I am not denying the existence of the subjective psyche/world. All I am saying is that he objective world proves more valid and useful in the infinite, unending existence of time. Free YOURSELF

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Well, this is simply the thinking of a person who doesnt believe in a higher being or God If you do believe in God, and respect his rules and what the Bible says, then this concept is totally different. Because, what you do means everything. One then believes in sin, and understands what it is. And everyone sins, but we can choose to try to abstain from it, denying our temptations and attempting to do what God wants us to do, and because we want to please him. And thats the interesting thing actually... even some people who do not believe in a God, think a little differently than you do here. They say it is important to hold up values, be kind to ones neighbor, and live a good life while they are here on Earth this short time before their existence is completed, etc. But where does this notion of right and wrong come from? Where do morals originate? Do we all have this innate sense of right and wrong? Now, some of you are going to say that this is entirely socialized. Yes, to an extent our parents raise us and tell us specifically how to behave and act. But the way I see it, even very young toddlers and children once they can walk, talk and act for themself a litte more, have a feeling of what is right and wrong to a degree even though some may be selfish or get into mischief at this age. Where does that come from? A better way to think of it is, where did it originally come from? If you say its socialized, well it had to come from somewhere, right? Somewhere down the line, people didnt have a wise and experienced generation to raise them with "values". Maybe this points to creation, and the idea of our first created ancestors, i.e. Adam and Eve? If people truly had had no inherent sense of right and wrong, and sense of what they did actually mattered and that they had to cooperate instead of being selfish and hedonistic, the human race could not have survived I dont think.

Anyways, just think about the whole morals bit and where it comes from, as food for thought