Playing as the weaker partner in doubles

KamehamehaBackhand · Dec 7, 2018

I've been playing in a 7.0 mixed league this fall as a 3.5 female partnered with a 3.5 male. While he is a stronger player than I am, it's not unbalanced enough to prompt the opposing team to take the "pick on the woman" strategy. We recently played A 3.0F/4.0M team and won, and afterwards the 4.0 guy asked if I wanted to play in the upcoming 7.5 combo league with him. I've agreed, and am excited for the opportunity to play higher level players but also a bit apprehensive about letting my soon-to-be teammate down.

I've seen a lot of comments in this forum on strategies the stronger player in takes in mixed or combo doubles leagues that they've found good success with. Curious what I can do as the weaker player other than just "not get in the way".

My backhand is much better than my forehand so I usually return on the ad side. However, I've also heard people say it's advantageous to have the stronger player on that side because important game points often end up there. I've been experimenting in a doubles clinic with returning on the deuce side positioning myself more in the alley to get more backhands, so I'm not opposed to playing that side if it'll give us a better chance.

Any thoughts, ideas, or words of wisdom would be welcome

boilerfan · Dec 7, 2018

For me, putting the stronger player on the ad side isn't really about important game points. It is more about being easier to protect the weaker player. The ad-side covers the middle, so that allows the stronger player to cover more than half the court. It also makes it harder on the opponent to pick on the weaker player since they have to hit closer to the deuce sideline to keep it away from the ad player. Also, the ad player can be much more aggressive with their movements since they would be hitting forehands when they attack. If you put the weaker player on the ad-side, the other team just has to hit everything in the middle of the court to gain an advantage. Especially if your backhand is stronger than your forehand.

For strategy, I typically like the weaker partner to mix it up. If you become predictable, it becomes easier to pick on you. Go down the line periodically, throw up some lobs..etc. Also, don't take shots you are uncomfortable with just because you think you should. Ask your partner if they prefer you take some shots or leave them. The one that comes to mind is you hitting a stretching backhand volley and taking away your partners forehand. In regular doubles, the net player takes what they can reach...but when the levels are different, a better strategy might be to let the stronger player hit a forehand instead of the weaker player hitting a stretching backhand volley.

KamehamehaBackhand · Dec 7, 2018

Hm, that's an interesting point about having his forehand for shots down the middle (where most points are played). Not sure I understand why the ad-side covers more than half the court though. I'm a little concerned about my forehand getting picked on in a cross-court exchange, but I guess I need to have some confidence in it and try to hit neutral shots until one of us has the opportunity to change the pattern of play.

Good point on keeping things unpredictable, I will keep that in mind. No problem with letting the backhand volleys go as I'm not much of a poacher...unless it's a mid-high floater. The backhand swing volley is one of my favorite shots

.

kevrol · Dec 7, 2018

Another thing you need to do is not get into an extended cross court rally with the higher rated player. If you're getting pushed wider and wider after 2-3 cross court shots you need to do something different (lob or go up the alley.) The longer you're in that rally as the weaker partner the more advantageous it is for the other team. You may be thinking hey I'm holding my own against this 4.0 but they're really just setting you up for their partner to be able to get an easy winner and keep your partner out of the point.

J011yroger · Dec 7, 2018

KamehamehaBackhand said:
Hm, that's an interesting point about having his forehand for shots down the middle (where most points are played). Not sure I understand why the ad-side covers more than half the court though. I'm a little concerned about my forehand getting picked on in a cross-court exchange, but I guess I need to have some confidence in it and try to hit neutral shots until one of us has the opportunity to change the pattern of play.

Good point on keeping things unpredictable, I will keep that in mind. No problem with letting the backhand volleys go as I'm not much of a poacher...unless it's a mid-high floater. The backhand swing volley is one of my favorite shots .

Ad court covers more court because you have better reach poaching with your forehand and your overhead is in the middle.

J

J011yroger · Dec 7, 2018

In response to the OP. In 9.0 I need 3 things from my 4.0 partner.

1: Return the other girl's serve.
2: Put away floaters in her zip code.
3: Be able to aim her serve to opponent's forehand or backhand.

Anything else is a bonus, anything less makes for a rough night.

J

penpal · Dec 7, 2018

At 7.5 MxD, with a 3.5 woman partner, the things I look for from her are:

Just play solid. I don't need you to be trying to win points, but rather keep us in the point and try not to lose it by going for low percentage shots. Going for a shot every once in awhile is fine, but mostly just play the higher percentage cross-court shot.
Don't get too focused on the male opponent (assuming he's the higher rated of the opponents). I've seen women partners get so focused on trying to hang with the male opponent that they play to him more than they should (e.g., trying to beat him down the line on RoS).
Do what you do best. Don't feel like you have to rush the net if you aren't typically good at that. If I asked you to play with me, as your partner has, I know what to expect. And even if we were thrown together, I understand that you can't be learning new tricks on the fly while playing against players better than you are used to playing against.
Have fun

Cindysphinx · Dec 7, 2018

Interesting question. I'm a 3.5 woman who plays 7.0 mixed and 7.5 mixed combo. It sounds like we're dealing with a lot of the same issues.

I think in general you should play whatever side is most comfortable for you. If you are booting returns on the deuce side, you're not helping so it would be better to play ad. And playing deuce has a big challenge because you have to get your return away from the FH of the opposing net player, and that can be super difficult with an active opponent at net and serves coming up the middle.

That said . . . I find it is better for my male partner to play ad. The main reason is that he can take the smashes and do a better job with them than I can. Also, if they lob me in the deuce court and we switch, he has a running FH or a FH smash. Also helpful is that if I am on deuce, the opponents can usually only beat me DTL with their BH return so I feel less compelled to hug my alley. If I do need to lob the return, I have a safe target DTL over the man's BH.

A couple of things to keep in mind for the future:

If you are trying to avoid FH returns by cheating toward the alley, that isn't going to work well against the serves of 4.0 guys. A longer term project is going to have to be to shore up your FH so you don't get aced up the middle all night. As the owner of a weak FH, I can tell you that you want no part of the anguish my FH causes me.

The other thing that is very important is being able to hit a "good" volley. What's a "good volley" in Mixed? A volley that hits the right spot on the court and doesn't bounce up. It is important to be able to place your volleys because opponents will try to get you to cough up something short or weak that they can then punish. And it is frustrating for your male partner to set up a floater for you at net only to have you push it right back to the opposing guy at the baseline. I think I am generally an OK volleyer, but still I have to constantly remember that placement is super important and I need to *think* and not just try to smack hard volleys.

Lastly, I would say it is important to Get Thyself To The Net, especially if your groundstrokes are as dodgy as mine. That means S&V against the woman, chip and charge against the woman, lob somebody and scurry in. Getting pinned at the baseline against two good volleyers at net is no picnic.

Have fun, and keep us posted on your exploits!!

Cindy -- hoping OnTheLine chimes in because she is experienced with this also

Cindysphinx · Dec 7, 2018

Wait, I thought of one more thing, so indulge me.

I won a super hard mixed match the other night. It was exactly the kind of mixed match I normally lose spectacularly. The 4.0 guy had a *huge* FH -- not necessarily huge pace, although it had plenty of pace, but huge spin. That thing was just moving all over the place. And he was hitting twist serves. Or I think they were twist serves, to the extent that I could see them.

The thing that I did differently in this match is that I took all of my lessons and knowledge and technique and discarded it in the warm up. I just decided to get as many balls back as I could any way I could. I swear, I hacked at his ball the entire match and didn't worry about hitting textbook groundstrokes. But I got a lot of balls back in play deep enough to start the point, and that was enough.

The moral of the story is this: Don't be a hero. Don't think you're going to overpower him. Win ugly if you have to. Do what you gotta do to start the point. The harder he hits, the less hard you hit. If you find yourself overmatch by the pace and spin, just watch the ball as best you can and hack away.

am1899 · Dec 7, 2018

What I look for in a female 3.5 partner for 8.0 mixed:

- Isnt afraid of 4.5 pace
- Puts enough balls in the court to keep us in the match - especially serves and returns
- Is able to put away weak balls at the net
- Wants to win (but doesn’t cheat)
- Is positive and a calming influence

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 7, 2018

KamehamehaBackhand said:
I've been playing in a 7.0 mixed league this fall as a 3.5 female partnered with a 3.5 male. While he is a stronger player than I am, it's not unbalanced enough to prompt the opposing team to take the "pick on the woman" strategy. We recently played A 3.0F/4.0M team and won, and afterwards the 4.0 guy asked if I wanted to play in the upcoming 7.5 combo league with him. I've agreed, and am excited for the opportunity to play higher level players but also a bit apprehensive about letting my soon-to-be teammate down.

I've seen a lot of comments in this forum on strategies the stronger player in takes in mixed or combo doubles leagues that they've found good success with. Curious what I can do as the weaker player other than just "not get in the way".

My backhand is much better than my forehand so I usually return on the ad side. However, I've also heard people say it's advantageous to have the stronger player on that side because important game points often end up there. I've been experimenting in a doubles clinic with returning on the deuce side positioning myself more in the alley to get more backhands, so I'm not opposed to playing that side if it'll give us a better chance.

Any thoughts, ideas, or words of wisdom would be welcome

Just make sure you don't overthink this: the reason the guy asked you to play is because he saw what you can do. If you try to change everything to squeeze out every last advantage, you may end up negating some or all of the reasons he asked you.

Discuss it with him: remember, it's a team effort.

KamehamehaBackhand · Dec 7, 2018

I appreciate all the input from both the perspective of the stronger player (what you look for in your partner) and weaker player (what you try to do or not do). Lots of good advice and things I hadn't thought of.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Just make sure you don't overthink this: the reason the guy asked you to play is because he saw what you can do. If you try to change everything to squeeze out every last advantage, you may end up negating some or all of the reasons he asked you.

Discuss it with him: remember, it's a team effort.

This comment is the one I probably needed to read the most. The other week I played a 7.0 match and started out with a few errors, which made me tighten up, which only of course led to more errors. This mental death spiral continued through the whole (very quick 0-6) first set. Finally managed to calm down and focus to make the second set interesting though we still ended up losing it 4-6.

Everyone has off days, but overthinking and pressuring myself about not letting my team down usually makes things much worse. Honestly I'm probably better off giving this minimal thought and going into it with an easy going attitude... easier said than done

TagUrIt · Dec 7, 2018

I've read what other posters have said and there isn't too much more I could say different. One thing I did want to address is your confidence, when we play against tougher opponents we will usually "sink or swim". Don't sell yourself short as a weak partner or letting your soon to be teammate down. There's nothing wrong with recognizing your skill level, but skill levels can be increased with hard work and practice. If your game wasn't strong, I doubt the 4.0 player would have asked you to be his partner. Go out there have fun and embrace the challenge.

One of the most important things for me in doubles is on the court communication, being supportive of each other and a positive attitude.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 7, 2018

KamehamehaBackhand said:
Honestly I'm probably better off giving this minimal thought and going into it with an easy going attitude...

^^^ This

And you can always make adjustments: you don't have to nail everything 100% from the outset.

Have fun!

OnTheLine · Dec 7, 2018

Cindysphinx said:
Interesting question. I'm a 3.5 woman who plays 7.0 mixed and 7.5 mixed combo. It sounds like we're dealing with a lot of the same issues.

I think in general you should play whatever side is most comfortable for you. If you are booting returns on the deuce side, you're not helping so it would be better to play ad. And playing deuce has a big challenge because you have to get your return away from the FH of the opposing net player, and that can be super difficult with an active opponent at net and serves coming up the middle.

That said . . . I find it is better for my male partner to play ad. The main reason is that he can take the smashes and do a better job with them than I can. Also, if they lob me in the deuce court and we switch, he has a running FH or a FH smash. Also helpful is that if I am on deuce, the opponents can usually only beat me DTL with their BH return so I feel less compelled to hug my alley. If I do need to lob the return, I have a safe target DTL over the man's BH.

A couple of things to keep in mind for the future:

If you are trying to avoid FH returns by cheating toward the alley, that isn't going to work well against the serves of 4.0 guys. A longer term project is going to have to be to shore up your FH so you don't get aced up the middle all night. As the owner of a weak FH, I can tell you that you want no part of the anguish my FH causes me.

The other thing that is very important is being able to hit a "good" volley. What's a "good volley" in Mixed? A volley that hits the right spot on the court and doesn't bounce up. It is important to be able to place your volleys because opponents will try to get you to cough up something short or weak that they can then punish. And it is frustrating for your male partner to set up a floater for you at net only to have you push it right back to the opposing guy at the baseline. I think I am generally an OK volleyer, but still I have to constantly remember that placement is super important and I need to *think* and not just try to smack hard volleys.

Lastly, I would say it is important to Get Thyself To The Net, especially if your groundstrokes are as dodgy as mine. That means S&V against the woman, chip and charge against the woman, lob somebody and scurry in. Getting pinned at the baseline against two good volleyers at net is no picnic.

Have fun, and keep us posted on your exploits!!

Cindy -- hoping OnTheLine chimes in because she is experienced with this also

You rang?

Yes I have some thoughts!
As a 3.5 female playing 8.0 and 7.5 ... I’ve been there.

There have been some great suggestions already and the one I will definitely repeat is: Play Your Shots.

You likely know your strengths and weaknesses... play to your strengths, if you have a solid lob, use it. (I don’t), if you can drill a backhand do it. Be confident at net.

The number 1 skill to have is a solid block for ROS at least in my mind. Your job is not to send back a winner on return of serve but to very rarely miss, even against a good 1st serve.

Cc rallies against opposing male. Hang in there, it is your stronger partners job to find his poach on these. Trying to mix up a dtl or lob can be more risky than simply returning back cross court.

Depth is your friend and the main goal with every ground stroke. Especially return of the females serve ... send it back deep and you likely have set up your partner for a volley or poach.

Avoid serves wide particularly on deuce. That can take your partner out of the point. Serve to the T or to the body as often as possible... again it sets up your partner

Don’t step on the court without believing that you belong there. Don’t consider yourself simply the weaker player ... you’re a player with some skills and you have a job to do.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ft.S · Dec 7, 2018

Cindysphinx said:
I won a super hard mixed match the other night. It was exactly the kind of mixed match I normally lose spectacularly. The 4.0 guy had a *huge* FH -- not necessarily huge pace, although it had plenty of pace, but huge spin. That thing was just moving all over the place. And he was hitting twist serves. Or I think they were twist serves, to the extent that I could see them.

The moral of the story is this: Don't be a hero. Don't think you're going to overpower him. Win ugly if you have to. Do what you gotta do to start the point. The harder he hits, the less hard you hit. If you find yourself overmatch by the pace and spin, just watch the ball as best you can and hack away.

That was such a great match to watch Cindy, it brought us the win we needed that night

Cindy certainly makes great points. My expectations in MXD teams are (1) have a net game, don’t be afraid of the ball, (2) court positioning/coverage; I really get annoyed with any partners who swears no one will pass him/her in the alley and opens up the middle of the court.

Nashvegas · Dec 8, 2018

Cindysphinx said:
Interesting question. I'm a 3.5 woman who plays 7.0 mixed and 7.5 mixed combo. It sounds like we're dealing with a lot of the same issues.

I think in general you should play whatever side is most comfortable for you. If you are booting returns on the deuce side, you're not helping so it would be better to play ad. And playing deuce has a big challenge because you have to get your return away from the FH of the opposing net player, and that can be super difficult with an active opponent at net and serves coming up the middle.

That said . . . I find it is better for my male partner to play ad. The main reason is that he can take the smashes and do a better job with them than I can. Also, if they lob me in the deuce court and we switch, he has a running FH or a FH smash. Also helpful is that if I am on deuce, the opponents can usually only beat me DTL with their BH return so I feel less compelled to hug my alley. If I do need to lob the return, I have a safe target DTL over the man's BH.

A couple of things to keep in mind for the future:

If you are trying to avoid FH returns by cheating toward the alley, that isn't going to work well against the serves of 4.0 guys. A longer term project is going to have to be to shore up your FH so you don't get aced up the middle all night. As the owner of a weak FH, I can tell you that you want no part of the anguish my FH causes me.

The other thing that is very important is being able to hit a "good" volley. What's a "good volley" in Mixed? A volley that hits the right spot on the court and doesn't bounce up. It is important to be able to place your volleys because opponents will try to get you to cough up something short or weak that they can then punish. And it is frustrating for your male partner to set up a floater for you at net only to have you push it right back to the opposing guy at the baseline. I think I am generally an OK volleyer, but still I have to constantly remember that placement is super important and I need to *think* and not just try to smack hard volleys.

Lastly, I would say it is important to Get Thyself To The Net, especially if your groundstrokes are as dodgy as mine. That means S&V against the woman, chip and charge against the woman, lob somebody and scurry in. Getting pinned at the baseline against two good volleyers at net is no picnic.

Have fun, and keep us posted on your exploits!!

Cindy -- hoping OnTheLine chimes in because she is experienced with this also

Small correction to her post... Cindy’s a 4.0 currently sandbagging at 3.5.

Just kidding! Bringing back the legend of Startzel. I know we all miss him.

In all seriousness, as most recently evidenced by this and your follow up posts, I appreciate the cerebral nature of your game. Neat to see how you came up with such a modification to your approach on the fly based on the opponent’s strengths, not to mention that it worked out well.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 8, 2018

Ft.S said:
That was such a great match to watch Cindy, it brought us the win we needed that night

Cindy certainly makes great points. My expectations in MXD teams are (1) have a net game, don’t be afraid of the ball, (2) court positioning/coverage; I really get annoyed with any partners who swears no one will pass him/her in the alley and opens up the middle of the court.

What's even more annoying is when they end up getting passed in the alley anyway!

I've had a few partners like that. It's not like I can ask the captain to change the lineup at the last minute so I try to use it as an opportunity to work on my coverage; sometimes it works...sometimes, not so much.

Cindysphinx · Dec 8, 2018

Ft.S said:
That was such a great match to watch Cindy, it brought us the win we needed that night

Cindy certainly makes great points. My expectations in MXD teams are (1) have a net game, don’t be afraid of the ball, (2) court positioning/coverage; I really get annoyed with any partners who swears no one will pass him/her in the alley and opens up the middle of the court.

Ah, yes. There are two kinds of male partners. There are the ones who want you to hug your alley, and there are the ones who want you to cover some court for the love of God.

The funny thing about that last match is that the opposing guy was playing ad. When my partner served to him, he didn't go down my alley. He whipped it close to me up the middle. My 4.0 partner either couldn't reach it at all, or he would hit something weak and we were unable to hold his serve (even though he is a very solid player). We discussed this, and I asked if I should move toward the center or something. But he felt like these balls were coming to his FH and felt comfortable covering them. I felt weird about it all night. When we went to the tiebreak, I decided I had to try to cover a bit more court, so I moved over a touch. That adjustment was one of several things that helped us pull out the win, but it was a decision I made unilaterally.

I say this because it is difficult for me (or really any person who is the weaker player) to feel empowered to make decisions. My partner during that match is an angel -- encouraging, fun, respectful -- and still I didn't feel like I should, you know, have ideas.

Zman · Dec 8, 2018

Cindysphinx said:
Ah, yes. There are two kinds of male partners. There are the ones who want you to hug your alley, and there are the ones who want you to cover some court for the love of God.

Well said. My biggest gripe when playing mixed with a lower-rated partner is when my partner tries to cover for me because I've run outside the doubles alley for a shot. I'm fast enough to recover and still cover most of the doubles court in such situations, and one of the few things I can't cover is my partner's doubles alley, which she leaves wide open by needlessly covering for me. But some 3.5 women insist on continuing to move this way in the name of proper tennis; of course, it is proper tennis at the instant I'm off the court, but they don't appreciate that a fast 4.5 man recovers position more quickly than their usual 3.5 women partners, so that they need to go back to their usual position quickly as well.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 8, 2018

Zman said:
Well said. My biggest gripe when playing mixed with a lower-rated partner is when my partner tries to cover for me because I've run outside the doubles alley for a shot. I'm fast enough to recover and still cover most of the doubles court in such situations, and one of the few things I can't cover is my partner's doubles alley, which she leaves wide open by needlessly covering for me. But some 3.5 women insist on continuing to move this way in the name of proper tennis; of course, it is proper tennis at the instant I'm off the court, but they don't appreciate that a fast 4.5 man recovers position more quickly than their usual 3.5 women partners, so that they need to go back to their usual position quickly as well.

You can't really blame them because they're reacting based on hundreds of previous reps. They don't have time to think of NOT doing it because you're quicker than their regular partner.

Now, if they keep doing it over and over, that means they're not paying attention so it's up to you to mention something.

J011yroger · Dec 8, 2018

Zman said:
Well said. My biggest gripe when playing mixed with a lower-rated partner is when my partner tries to cover for me because I've run outside the doubles alley for a shot. I'm fast enough to recover and still cover most of the doubles court in such situations, and one of the few things I can't cover is my partner's doubles alley, which she leaves wide open by needlessly covering for me. But some 3.5 women insist on continuing to move this way in the name of proper tennis; of course, it is proper tennis at the instant I'm off the court, but they don't appreciate that a fast 4.5 man recovers position more quickly than their usual 3.5 women partners, so that they need to go back to their usual position quickly as well.

Where are you hitting the ball that your opponent can go down the opposite alley?!

J

Cindysphinx · Dec 8, 2018

And remember, fellas . . . We cannot see you when you are scrambling or recovering. And um . . . some of you go mute during points and won't call balls. If you don't want your female partner to shift when you get pulled wide, you're going to have to say something during the point (e.g. "I'm here" or "Stay").

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 8, 2018

Cindysphinx said:
And remember, fellas . . . We cannot see you when you are scrambling or recovering. And um . . . some of you go mute during points and won't call balls. If you don't want your female partner to shift when you get pulled wide, you're going to have to say something during the point (e.g. "I'm here" or "Stay").

All the woman has to do is glance over her shoulder to see where her partner is.

I wouldn't think to yell "stay" because that implies a play in the middle [ie a short-circuited poach]. If I'm pulled out wide, I certainly don't expect my partner to switch sides.

Ultimately, it's a judgment call: the one who hasn't gotten pulled out wide has to judge how much more court to cover to help out the partner at the risk of opening up the alley. The better the player, the better the judgment. I would say that the woman should shift over enough so that she's getting passed half of the time down the alley and half of the time in the middle. If she's only getting passed down the alley, she moved too far. If she's only getting passed down the middle [and her partner isn't recovering quickly enough], she didn't move far enough.

OnTheLine · Dec 8, 2018

J011yroger said:
Where are you hitting the ball that your opponent can go down the opposite alley?!

J

Precisely the right question.

If my partner is pulled off the court wide, I am covering to the middle period. There is no good reason partner should hit a wide and short cross court shot that would leave my alley a target.

If I don't cover the middle ... well that is the easy shot for the opponents who can now drive a mack truck through it.

If partner hits a cross court shot deep, I am following that shot and shifting and now alley is covered and there is plenty of time for the shift.

If partner hits cross court short ... well, doesn't matter where I am, if opponents hit anything it should be a winner .... sending it there is poor shot selection.

KamehamehaBackhand · Dec 10, 2018

Had an interesting match last night (still 7.0 mixed, 7.5 combo mixed doesn't start until January). 3.5M new partner and I up against a 4.0M/3.0F team. The 4.0 guy was recently bumped down from 4.5 and is a part-time teaching pro. This was line 3 of 3 mind you... I think they normally play line 1 or 2 but he had tweaked his ankle the day before (though no noticable lack of mobility from what I could see).

They won 5-7, 6-2, 6-4. We couldn't come close to touching his service games - 1st was a flat serve, probably the fastest I've been up against (finally got one back in play in the last point of the match), 2nd was a kick serve (I was able to get about 50% of these in play but he would serve and volley so they would win the point most of the time anyway).

We really needed to break her serve every time but only did 75% of the time. I won most of my points returning on the ad-side by hitting hard and deep backhands or a little shorter but angled away from her partner looking to poach. My partner sent a lot of his returns long... I guess trying to do too much with her weak serve.

What she did well as the weaker player on their team - didn't try to go for much but was very solid both at net and back by just keeping the ball in play as much as possible.

Overall very happy with how I played, despite a few key points where I made technical or tactical errors. The only thing I feel I could have done much differently would have been to be more aggressive at the net. I did well when they hit in my direction but only went for a couple volleys outside of the obligatory ones. This was especially true since my partner was a bit erratic at the baseline (he was really solid at net though, putting most balls away confidently).

Chatting with the teaching pro opponent after the match, he told me I could be a solid 4.0 if I improved a couple aspects of my game - thinking he says this to everyone trying to get people to hire him for lessons

.

KamehamehaBackhand · Feb 14, 2019

Overdue for an update, as we're now well into the combo mixed 7.5 season. There have been 4 matches, and I've gotten to play in 3 of them which I'm very happy with considering there are 23(!) players registered on our roster.

We've won all 3 matches, though they've all been close and at some point in the match felt like they could have gone the other way. All three have been against a 4.0F/3.5M team (I've been matched with a 4.0M each time since I'm a 3.5F). The first two, I was playing with the guy who recruited me for the team. He's a lefty with a great serve and forehand. He's returned on the ad-side so far in order get the advantage on cross-court rallies. I also prefer returning on the ad-side since my backhand is much stronger than my forehand, but have deferred to him since his forehand is stronger than my backhand.

I've been very happy with my ability to hit solid returns and stay in baseline rallies with either the 4.0F or 3.5M opponent, though I'm curious if this trend will continue when we come up against a 4.0M/3.5F team. I go to a lot of co-ed drills which tend to be mostly 3.0-4.0 guys trying to hit as hard as they can, so that's definitely been good practice for handling pace. The guy on the second team we played, instead of saying 'nice match' at the end, said 'I can't play with flat balls' (we had won 6-4, 6-2). Granted, the game balls did deteriorate quickly, but we're all in the same boat there. Arguably it's most disadvantageous to the person who hits with the most pace (in this case, my partner) since flatter balls loose a lot more pace on the bounce. Maybe he was just mad a girl didn't have a problem returning his serve and hanging with him in a rally

.

At net and serving is where I've struggled a bit more and am hoping to improve over the course of the season. In our first match I dumped the first few volleys that came to me in the net, so I was instructed by my partner to "get right up to the net and cover the alley; I've got the middle". Can't say I blame him. I volley alright in drills/clinics, but struggle with it in matches. A) I never seem to be able to pull the trigger and poach so I only volley balls hit to me or obvious sitters and B) I make errors because I seem to panic and don't position myself right or over- or under-hit. It's not like it's every volley but definitely a higher percentage of errors than in practice.

Keys on serve are pretty simple: increase 1st serve percentage, work on placement, and work on adding some kick to my second serve so it's not so easy to direct wherever they want. I estimate I've been holding serve about half of the time, which sounds bad but given that on paper I'm the weakest player out of the 4 on the court isn't terrible.

Overall I think I've played a little better with each successive match, and I'm not sure what I was nervous about as it doesn't seem that different than 7.0 mixed (duh). The last match I played with a right-hander and though he said he usually returned on the ad-side was open to letting me return on that side since I feel it's my stronger side. Returns felt really good, and I also volleyed better overall (though still some dumb errors). We won 7-5, 6-4.

MRfStop · Feb 14, 2019

KamehamehaBackhand said:
I've been playing in a 7.0 mixed league this fall as a 3.5 female partnered with a 3.5 male. While he is a stronger player than I am, it's not unbalanced enough to prompt the opposing team to take the "pick on the woman" strategy. We recently played A 3.0F/4.0M team and won, and afterwards the 4.0 guy asked if I wanted to play in the upcoming 7.5 combo league with him. I've agreed, and am excited for the opportunity to play higher level players but also a bit apprehensive about letting my soon-to-be teammate down.

I've seen a lot of comments in this forum on strategies the stronger player in takes in mixed or combo doubles leagues that they've found good success with. Curious what I can do as the weaker player other than just "not get in the way".

My backhand is much better than my forehand so I usually return on the ad side. However, I've also heard people say it's advantageous to have the stronger player on that side because important game points often end up there. I've been experimenting in a doubles clinic with returning on the deuce side positioning myself more in the alley to get more backhands, so I'm not opposed to playing that side if it'll give us a better chance.

Any thoughts, ideas, or words of wisdom would be welcome

Since its a combo league you're going to play people that are the same level as you and maybe not the same. When you're playing with a stronger player just play your game. Don't feel like you have to play above your ability. Let them do their thing and you do yours. Just be ready to get hit at and hit to every point.

blakesq · Feb 14, 2019

There are two ways I approach this: 1. Put the best returner on the deuce side, because the deuce side gets more serves than the ad side. or, 2. put the person with the better backhand return on the ad side. I usually go with the 1st approach. However, if the ad side person cannot make enough returns or we know he has a weak backhand return, then we may use the 2nd approach.

Dartagnan64 · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
And it is frustrating for your male partner to set up a floater for you at net only to have you push it right back to the opposing guy at the baseline.

You have no clue how true this is. I don't have an overpowering serve so I have to work hard on placement and moving the returner around to set up weak returns, so when I get one, all I ask is my partner to put that ball away either with pace or angles.

KamehamehaBackhand · Feb 14, 2019

blakesq said:
There are two ways I approach this: 1. Put the best returner on the deuce side, because the deuce side gets more serves than the ad side. or, 2. put the person with the better backhand return on the ad side. I usually go with the 1st approach. However, if the ad side person cannot make enough returns or we know he has a weak backhand return, then we may use the 2nd approach.

I think there are a lot more than 2 ways to approach the returner side strategy - just scroll up in this thread to see a few more.

The primary thought for me and a lot of people is who returns serve better on which side. I've also heard right handers say that they like returning on the ad side so that when they're at net they have their forehand volley in the middle for poaching, which is something I hadn't thought about myself since I'm a terrible poacher. I'd argue that won't even come into play until the returner gets the serve into play. For the last match when I was playing with the right hander with this mindset, it comes down to this: would he have put away enough more points at the net to make up for the points we would have lost due to my poorer returns on the deuce side? Obviously hard to say for sure without playing one set on one side and the other flipped, but I feel it would have come out even and our match score would have been similar had we played him returning on the ad side.

Dartagnan64 · Feb 14, 2019

KamehamehaBackhand said:
We've won all 3 matches, though they've all been close and at some point in the match felt like they could have gone the other way. All three have been against a 4.0F/3.5M team (I've been matched with a 4.0M each time since I'm a 3.5F). The first two, I was playing with the guy who recruited me for the team. He's a lefty with a great serve and forehand. He's returned on the ad-side so far in order get the advantage on cross-court rallies. I also prefer returning on the ad-side since my backhand is much stronger than my forehand, but have deferred to him since his forehand is stronger than my backhand.

Never been a fan of the BH's to the middle set up in doubles when you have a lefty partner. I will hit hard down the middle all day against that setup since its low risk for me and its unlikely you'll make me pay. If you have both BH's out wide I have to hit wider angles at you with more risks. And now I'm not worried about your net person poaching when your team is returning so all I have to do is hit deep down the middle and come in to avoid your "CC rally" advantage.

But I agree with deferring to the stronger player for choice. But if I'm facing your team I'm licking my chops when we are serving. Balls down the middle all day.

Cindysphinx · Feb 14, 2019

KamehamehaBackhand said:
Overdue for an update, as we're now well into the combo mixed 7.5 season. There have been 4 matches, and I've gotten to play in 3 of them which I'm very happy with considering there are 23(!) players registered on our roster.

We've won all 3 matches, though they've all been close and at some point in the match felt like they could have gone the other way. All three have been against a 4.0F/3.5M team (I've been matched with a 4.0M each time since I'm a 3.5F). The first two, I was playing with the guy who recruited me for the team. He's a lefty with a great serve and forehand. He's returned on the ad-side so far in order get the advantage on cross-court rallies. I also prefer returning on the ad-side since my backhand is much stronger than my forehand, but have deferred to him since his forehand is stronger than my backhand.

I've been very happy with my ability to hit solid returns and stay in baseline rallies with either the 4.0F or 3.5M opponent, though I'm curious if this trend will continue when we come up against a 4.0M/3.5F team. I go to a lot of co-ed drills which tend to be mostly 3.0-4.0 guys trying to hit as hard as they can, so that's definitely been good practice for handling pace. The guy on the second team we played, instead of saying 'nice match' at the end, said 'I can't play with flat balls' (we had won 6-4, 6-2). Granted, the game balls did deteriorate quickly, but we're all in the same boat there. Arguably it's most disadvantageous to the person who hits with the most pace (in this case, my partner) since flatter balls loose a lot more pace on the bounce. Maybe he was just mad a girl didn't have a problem returning his serve and hanging with him in a rally .

At net and serving is where I've struggled a bit more and am hoping to improve over the course of the season. In our first match I dumped the first few volleys that came to me in the net, so I was instructed by my partner to "get right up to the net and cover the alley; I've got the middle". Can't say I blame him. I volley alright in drills/clinics, but struggle with it in matches. A) I never seem to be able to pull the trigger and poach so I only volley balls hit to me or obvious sitters and B) I make errors because I seem to panic and don't position myself right or over- or under-hit. It's not like it's every volley but definitely a higher percentage of errors than in practice.

Keys on serve are pretty simple: increase 1st serve percentage, work on placement, and work on adding some kick to my second serve so it's not so easy to direct wherever they want. I estimate I've been holding serve about half of the time, which sounds bad but given that on paper I'm the weakest player out of the 4 on the court isn't terrible.

Overall I think I've played a little better with each successive match, and I'm not sure what I was nervous about as it doesn't seem that different than 7.0 mixed (duh). The last match I played with a right-hander and though he said he usually returned on the ad-side was open to letting me return on that side since I feel it's my stronger side. Returns felt really good, and I also volleyed better overall (though still some dumb errors). We won 7-5, 6-4.

Thank you for coming back to post an update. It is so fun to hear how things work out in light of all of the advice.

I would say . . . don't be too hard on yourself about your net play and poaching. When I play mixed, I am not thinking of poaching. The men's balls have more pace and spin than I am used to, so I am more likely to miss or hit something weak. In ladies 3.5, a weak poach can still win you the point, but in mixed it is not a smart move.

Regarding panicking . . . well, yeah. The ball is coming hot and hard. It is natural to feel like you need to be farther from the net to have more time to volley. So it is an adjustment -- you do need to stay right up there because backing up just makes you a more inviting target.

So how can you be effective at net in mixed? When I am at net while the guys slug it out at the baseline, I try try try to split step whenever the opposing guy is hitting. The split step has to be on your toes -- if the ball comes to your way you have to be ready to move forward into it, even if only a little bit. Falling backward or being on your heels will send it long. And of course when it is time to put away a floater or pick off an easy middle ball, you have to move forward on the diagonal.

That said, you have to pay attention to what is going on with your partner. Is he covering the court nicely, or is he puffing and panting and making mistakes? Is he getting pinned at the baseline with two opponents at net? If so, then you might have to find a way to get more active at net.

Regarding serving . . . I'm not sure. I used to have a baby kick serve, but it wasn't much use in mixed because it did not kick high enough to bother the guy. For him, it was just a sad sitter. Given how much of a challenge it can be to make an appreciable improvement in your serve, it might pay bigger dividends to focus on defending your serve as it is. In other words, place your serve and then put your attention on making sure you are balanced and not floating in no-man's land for no real reason. If you can play that first groundstroke well enough, you can set your partner up with a deep drive that he can poach off of more readily than he can off of your slightly improved serve.

I know, I know. Telling someone not to bother with improving the serve is blasphemy around here. But if OP is feeling like her volleys are letting her down, working on that is probably a better use of time and energy than trying to develop a kick serve or getting a few mphs out of her current serve at the expense of accuracy.

KamehamehaBackhand · Feb 14, 2019

Dartagnan64 said:
Never been a fan of the BH's to the middle set up in doubles when you have a lefty partner. I will hit hard down the middle all day against that setup since its low risk for me and its unlikely you'll make me pay. If you have both BH's out wide I have to hit wider angles at you with more risks. And now I'm not worried about your net person poaching when your team is returning so all I have to do is hit deep down the middle and come in to avoid your "CC rally" advantage.

But I agree with deferring to the stronger player for choice. But if I'm facing your team I'm licking my chops when we are serving. Balls down the middle all day.

I mean... that makes sense if both of your opponents prefer their forehands. When I was playing with my lefty partner and returning on the deuce side, the 4.0F in both matches consistently served out wide targeting my forehand, despite my standing mostly in the alley trying to bait a serve down the middle to my backhand. I was impressed at their ability to place it so consistently, and I think it was the right call as I was pretty miserable having to hit a higher percentage of forehands all night and their guy at the net was certainly happy to have those weaker responses to poach.

J011yroger · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Thank you for coming back to post an update. It is so fun to hear how things work out in light of all of the advice.

I would say . . . don't be too hard on yourself about your net play and poaching. When I play mixed, I am not thinking of poaching. The men's balls have more pace and spin than I am used to, so I am more likely to miss or hit something weak. In ladies 3.5, a weak poach can still win you the point, but in mixed it is not a smart move.

Regarding panicking . . . well, yeah. The ball is coming hot and hard. It is natural to feel like you need to be farther from the net to have more time to volley. So it is an adjustment -- you do need to stay right up there because backing up just makes you a more inviting target.

So how can you be effective at net in mixed? When I am at net while the guys slug it out at the baseline, I try try try to split step whenever the opposing guy is hitting. The split step has to be on your toes -- if the ball comes to your way you have to be ready to move forward into it, even if only a little bit. Falling backward or being on your heels will send it long. And of course when it is time to put away a floater or pick off an easy middle ball, you have to move forward on the diagonal.

That said, you have to pay attention to what is going on with your partner. Is he covering the court nicely, or is he puffing and panting and making mistakes? Is he getting pinned at the baseline with two opponents at net? If so, then you might have to find a way to get more active at net.

Regarding serving . . . I'm not sure. I used to have a baby kick serve, but it wasn't much use in mixed because it did not kick high enough to bother the guy. For him, it was just a sad sitter. Given how much of a challenge it can be to make an appreciable improvement in your serve, it might pay bigger dividends to focus on defending your serve as it is. In other words, place your serve and then put your attention on making sure you are balanced and not floating in no-man's land for no real reason. If you can play that first groundstroke well enough, you can set your partner up with a deep drive that he can poach off of more readily than he can off of your slightly improved serve.

I know, I know. Telling someone not to bother with improving the serve is blasphemy around here. But if OP is feeling like her volleys are letting her down, working on that is probably a better use of time and energy than trying to develop a kick serve or getting a few mphs out of her current serve at the expense of accuracy.

+1 on not being hard on yourself at net. Guys make each other eat balls all the time.

If they hit a good shot they are allowed to win the point, just like you. Focus on the ones that you can make.

J

KamehamehaBackhand · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Thank you for coming back to post an update. It is so fun to hear how things work out in light of all of the advice.

I would say . . . don't be too hard on yourself about your net play and poaching. When I play mixed, I am not thinking of poaching. The men's balls have more pace and spin than I am used to, so I am more likely to miss or hit something weak. In ladies 3.5, a weak poach can still win you the point, but in mixed it is not a smart move.

Regarding panicking . . . well, yeah. The ball is coming hot and hard. It is natural to feel like you need to be farther from the net to have more time to volley. So it is an adjustment -- you do need to stay right up there because backing up just makes you a more inviting target.

So how can you be effective at net in mixed? When I am at net while the guys slug it out at the baseline, I try try try to split step whenever the opposing guy is hitting. The split step has to be on your toes -- if the ball comes to your way you have to be ready to move forward into it, even if only a little bit. Falling backward or being on your heels will send it long. And of course when it is time to put away a floater or pick off an easy middle ball, you have to move forward on the diagonal.

That said, you have to pay attention to what is going on with your partner. Is he covering the court nicely, or is he puffing and panting and making mistakes? Is he getting pinned at the baseline with two opponents at net? If so, then you might have to find a way to get more active at net.

Regarding serving . . . I'm not sure. I used to have a baby kick serve, but it wasn't much use in mixed because it did not kick high enough to bother the guy. For him, it was just a sad sitter. Given how much of a challenge it can be to make an appreciable improvement in your serve, it might pay bigger dividends to focus on defending your serve as it is. In other words, place your serve and then put your attention on making sure you are balanced and not floating in no-man's land for no real reason. If you can play that first groundstroke well enough, you can set your partner up with a deep drive that he can poach off of more readily than he can off of your slightly improved serve.

I know, I know. Telling someone not to bother with improving the serve is blasphemy around here. But if OP is feeling like her volleys are letting her down, working on that is probably a better use of time and energy than trying to develop a kick serve or getting a few mphs out of her current serve at the expense of accuracy.

Absolutely agree on your poaching comment. I am giving myself a pass on it for mixed for precisely the reasons you mentioned. I'm in a trilevel (3.5 women's doubles line) league too, and in the 1 match I've gotten to play so far it was glaringly obvious that I need to work on being more of a presence at the net. We still won, but I want to be more help to my partner on her serve game.

On serve, you're probably right that I'm not going to make much progress in improving, especially during winter season where it's hard to get much serving practice in at all. My first serve is faster than the average 3.5F, but it's also lower % than average. Biggest problem is probably my inconsistent toss, which I have a bad habit of chasing. It often goes in anyway and doesn't work half bad at this level because they're not expecting it to go in. I sometimes just give up and take a lot off my 1st serve just to get the % up, but that doesn't give my partner many opportunities for a weak return like a real 1st serve would. At the end of the day I think working on placement regardless of pace and spin will yield the most dividends.

sureshs · Feb 14, 2019

KamehamehaBackhand said:
Absolutely agree on your poaching comment. I am giving myself a pass on it for mixed for precisely the reasons you mentioned. I'm in a trilevel (3.5 women's doubles line) league too, and in the 1 match I've gotten to play so far it was glaringly obvious that I need to work on being more of a presence at the net. We still won, but I want to be more help to my partner on her serve game.

On serve, you're probably right that I'm not going to make much progress in improving, especially during winter season where it's hard to get much serving practice in at all. My first serve is faster than the average 3.5F, but it's also lower % than average. Biggest problem is probably my inconsistent toss, which I have a bad habit of chasing. It often goes in anyway and doesn't work half bad at this level because they're not expecting it to go in. I sometimes just give up and take a lot off my 1st serve just to get the % up, but that doesn't give my partner many opportunities for a weak return like a real 1st serve would. At the end of the day I think working on placement regardless of pace and spin will yield the most dividends.

Why do I get the impression you are from Hawaii?

KamehamehaBackhand · Feb 14, 2019

sureshs said:
Why do I get the impression you are from Hawaii?

Lol, I can see where you could get that impression from my screen name if you've never seen Dragonball Z. I'm from Wisconsin, so about as far from Hawaiian climate as you can get

sureshs · Feb 14, 2019

KamehamehaBackhand said:
Lol, I can see where you could get that impression from my screen name if you've never seen Dragonball Z. I'm from Wisconsin, so about as far from Hawaiian climate as you can get

I don't watch many movies or play computer games.

Cindysphinx · Feb 14, 2019

KamehamehaBackhand said:
Biggest problem is probably my inconsistent toss, which I have a bad habit of chasing. It often goes in anyway and doesn't work half bad at this level because they're not expecting it to go in. I sometimes just give up and take a lot off my 1st serve just to get the % up, but that doesn't give my partner many opportunities for a weak return like a real 1st serve would. At the end of the day I think working on placement regardless of pace and spin will yield the most dividends.

Hey, I struggle with the toss also. I am also a Toss Catcher, sometimes having to toss repeatedly to get one I can hit.

Simona Halep seems to have solved my tossing problem.

See, I was watching her serve at the Australian Open. And I noticed that she does something my coach told me about long ago. She reaches up high and strong with her tossing arm.

I started doing that -- really reaching for the stars with my left arm -- and it has transformed my serve. If I make sure I reach my tossing arm/hand up as high as it will go, the effect is that the toss *has* to go straight up above the hand and high enough. A bonus is that I can see up my arm, like it is a gun sight, and if the toss is off I can see that clearly. If it is too low, that is evident because the ball goes below my hand before I have a chance to swing. It also gets my shoulders aligned better, and it prevents me from dropping my tossing arm down prematurely. The best part is that reaching for the stars doesn't mess with your timing or mechanics at all.

I am serving more consistently than I ever have. When the weather warms, I'm going to work on placement and leg drive, and I am expecting some really good results.

OnTheLine · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Hey, I struggle with the toss also. I am also a Toss Catcher, sometimes having to toss repeatedly to get one I can hit.

Simona Halep seems to have solved my tossing problem.

See, I was watching her serve at the Australian Open. And I noticed that she does something my coach told me about long ago. She reaches up high and strong with her tossing arm.

I started doing that -- really reaching for the stars with my left arm -- and it has transformed my serve. If I make sure I reach my tossing arm/hand up as high as it will go, the effect is that the toss *has* to go straight up above the hand and high enough. A bonus is that I can see up my arm, like it is a gun sight, and if the toss is off I can see that clearly. If it is too low, that is evident because the ball goes below my hand before I have a chance to swing. It also gets my shoulders aligned better, and it prevents me from dropping my tossing arm down prematurely. The best part is that reaching for the stars doesn't mess with your timing or mechanics at all.

I am serving more consistently than I ever have. When the weather warms, I'm going to work on placement and leg drive, and I am expecting some really good results.

Funny you mention this ... I have a good serve and never have deconstructed it as to why, its just always been good ... also not much of a toss catcher.

After a match the other week opponent said to me that she was so impressed with how high I toss the ball and how my arm stays up and straight .... had ever ever thought about it before. I then started thinking about it while hitting some practice serves .... arm dropped, shoulder dropped and it all went bad. I couldn't get it out of my head for a spell ... now I seem back to normal ... normal is having a good 1st serve without thinking about it.

Dartagnan64 · Feb 14, 2019

KamehamehaBackhand said:
I mean... that makes sense if both of your opponents prefer their forehands. When I was playing with my lefty partner and returning on the deuce side, the 4.0F in both matches consistently served out wide targeting my forehand, despite my standing mostly in the alley trying to bait a serve down the middle to my backhand. I was impressed at their ability to place it so consistently, and I think it was the right call as I was pretty miserable having to hit a higher percentage of forehands all night and their guy at the net was certainly happy to have those weaker responses to poach.

Very few players before 4.5 can make someone pay targeting their BH. Even those that prefer their BH are not going to rip dipping winners at the net guy. And I've found its rarely a bad move to hit low and hard over the net to anyone's BH volley.

Of course my problem is that it often takes me a set to realize one of the opponents is a lefty.

I think in your situation, you will be carried in your matches because a) lefty serves are wicked and b) the important points come to ad side

KamehamehaBackhand · Feb 14, 2019

Dartagnan64 said:
Very few players before 4.5 can make someone pay targeting their BH. Even those that prefer their BH are not going to rip dipping winners at the net guy. And I've found its rarely a bad move to hit low and hard over the net to anyone's BH volley.

Of course my problem is that it often takes me a set to realize one of the opponents is a lefty.

I think in your situation, you will be carried in your matches because a) lefty serves are wicked and b) the important points come to ad side

Haha, I think it goes without saying that the 4.0M player is carrying the 3.5F, lefty or not. And I wasn't trying to imply that I'm ripping tons of BH winners or anything, just consistently hard and deep groundstrokes that sometimes put us in an advantageous position in the point.

Cindysphinx · Feb 14, 2019

I'll add that many women have stronger BHs than FHs.

And in my case, my BH volley is stronger than my FH volley, partly because I play deuce court so much. My 2HBH groundstroke has always had more sound mechanics than my idiot FH that lets me down all the time. Fortunately, many players assume the BH is weaker and hit to me there, never bothering to trigger the error machine that is my FH.

J011yroger · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
I'll add that many women have stronger BHs than FHs.

And in my case, my BH volley is stronger than my FH volley, partly because I play deuce court so much. My 2HBH groundstroke has always had more sound mechanics than my idiot FH that lets me down all the time. Fortunately, many players assume the BH is weaker and hit to me there, never bothering to trigger the error machine that is my FH.

I don't know if this is you but lots of players have solid backhands and forehands that are more dangerous but also more error prone.

If I'm better than them I hit to the steady side. If I'm worse I hit to the erratic side.

J

Dartagnan64 · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
I'll add that many women have stronger BHs than FHs.

And in my case, my BH volley is stronger than my FH volley, partly because I play deuce court so much. My 2HBH groundstroke has always had more sound mechanics than my idiot FH that lets me down all the time. Fortunately, many players assume the BH is weaker and hit to me there, never bothering to trigger the error machine that is my FH.

I've seen women that have more consistent BH's than FH's but I've not seen a woman with a "strong" BH if by that you mean "intimidatingly powerful so I'm not prone to poach it". I've also not seen too many 3.5 players with a stretch BH volley worth anything. So the secret with 2 BH's in the middle is bisecting the middle between players so that they have to reach. Very hard to get force on that volley. Best they do is usually a framed drop volley.

Admittedly very few men have a worrisome BH in the 3.5-4.0 range and most will angle slice returns or lob to that side. At least some women will hit flat with some pace from that side.

Cindysphinx · Feb 14, 2019

By "strong" BH, I mean a BH that has enough power and weight that a typical 3.5 guy won't try to poach it.

This doesn't strike me as a big ask, really. Like, the other night I played a crazy fast male 3.5 opponent, with me returning from the deuce side. He didn't poach my ball at all, although he tried a lot. The reason is that his partner's serve was not that strong, so I could receive from closer to the service line and take it on the rise with my BH crosscourt. And when he left early, I could lob it over his BH. Because I was standing in so tight, I hit a fair number of slice BH returns, and he couldn't reach those either. Your experience may be different, but I don't see my female 3.5 mixed teammates struggling to keep their BH returns away from the net player off of the opposing woman's serve.

Regarding whether people can hit "stretch" BH volleys . . . I don't understand the question. I shouldn't be stretching to defend a passing shot hit up the middle if I am positioned properly. I mean, if someone hits an amazing passing shot up the middle, of course I could make an error. But I don't see how covering the middle with your BH means you have to "stretch" in typical circumstances. If you are "stretching" to hit volleys, you're doing it wrong and are having a footwork problem, right?

That said, I do agree that hitting a passing shot up the middle is a great play if you have two at net, especially if you are in the middle. I don't think that is because they do or do not have BHs in the middle. I think it is because that moment of hesitation due to indecision about whose ball it is can work to your benefit, and it also provides them less angle for them to work with.

Dartagnan64 · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
By "strong" BH, I mean a BH that has enough power and weight that a typical 3.5 guy won't try to poach it.

This doesn't strike me as a big ask, really. Like, the other night I played a crazy fast male 3.5 opponent, with me returning from the deuce side. He didn't poach my ball at all, although he tried a lot. The reason is that his partner's serve was not that strong, so I could receive from closer to the service line and take it on the rise with my BH crosscourt. And when he left early, I could lob it over his BH. Because I was standing in so tight, I hit a fair number of slice BH returns, and he couldn't reach those either. Your experience may be different, but I don't see my female 3.5 mixed teammates struggling to keep their BH returns away from the net player off of the opposing woman's serve.

Regarding whether people can hit "stretch" BH volleys . . . I don't understand the question. I shouldn't be stretching to defend a passing shot hit up the middle if I am positioned properly. I mean, if someone hits an amazing passing shot up the middle, of course I could make an error. But I don't see how covering the middle with your BH means you have to "stretch" in typical circumstances. If you are "stretching" to hit volleys, you're doing it wrong and are having a footwork problem, right?

That said, I do agree that hitting a passing shot up the middle is a great play if you have two at net, especially if you are in the middle. I don't think that is because they do or do not have BHs in the middle. I think it is because that mom
ent of hesitation due to indecision about whose ball it is can work to your benefit, and it also provides them less angle for them to work with.

People rarely properly position to guard the middle because they are scared of getting beat down the alleys and worried about being too close to their partner. There is always a decent gap and its probably the greatest secret weapon in rec doubles. I get a ton of points just going down the middle. Hesitancy, bad postioning, low net height all work in may favour. Add a couple BH's there and I'm happy.

If someone hits the ball down that gap and my partner misses it with her backhand I've saved a number of points with a stretched out flick FH. My FH backing her up means she never has to really reach for a BH volley. Similarly if she hits her serve to your BH I'm far more comfortable stretching out to go after it with a FH. As the male player in mixed I just always want to have my FH in the middle. Poaches, overheads, midcourt half volley saves, backing up my partner, hitting inside in FH RoS DTL winners. All so much easier with a FH in the middle.

But I agree its a lot harder to poach off my wife's serve if you are close to the service line and taking it early with an angled shot. That's usually how opponents defeat me at the net.

Cindysphinx · Feb 14, 2019

Yes, I understand. As I said earlier, I generally prefer my RH male partner to play ad so that he can cover more court with his FH. I was mostly taking issue with the assumptions that players have weaker BH groundstrokes or BH volleys.

In other words, when I am playing ladies and not mixed, I don't worry about having 2FHs or 2 BHs in the middle. It all comes down to who is comfortable doing what. Since I am more comfortable than many of my partners with my BH volley, I play a lot of deuce.

The irony is that a lot of people tell me they want to play the deuce side because they "like their FH." I never understood that -- the BH is the important shot if you're playing deuce, IMHO.

J011yroger · Feb 14, 2019

Cindysphinx said:
Yes, I understand. As I said earlier, I generally prefer my RH male partner to play ad so that he can cover more court with his FH. I was mostly taking issue with the assumptions that players have weaker BH groundstrokes or BH volleys.

In other words, when I am playing ladies and not mixed, I don't worry about having 2FHs or 2 BHs in the middle. It all comes down to who is comfortable doing what. Since I am more comfortable than many of my partners with my BH volley, I play a lot of deuce.

The irony is that a lot of people tell me they want to play the deuce side because they "like their FH." I never understood that -- the BH is the important shot if you're playing deuce, IMHO.

Are we overlooking the players who are wholly unable to serve to the BH?

J

Playing as the weaker partner in doubles

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