1st serve vs 2nd serve pronation problem

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

Ok guys, need some help, my 1st serve has reached a pretty decent level where im satisfied with it, of course im going to keep improving it, don't get me wrong, but its the one shot that is my biggest weapon, so currently my priorities are other things, but I will still work on it alot in the summer by target practice etc..

Anyway, my biggest priority currently (considering im starting to play leagues and tournaments in summer) is getting my 2nd serve in check, before a ton of match play makes my technique ingrained too much, so I have a good technical fundation to build on.

Was just wondering what you guys think I need to improve with my kick serve, its not consistent at all yet, I need to make it consistent so I can hit 99 out of 100 and that they are quality ones.

I was focusing specially on letting the ball drop lower like J011y suggested a while ago, but im not sure if its right or it should be even lower.

It does seem to kick to the right, but something is not right, I feel like, it seems too have not enough brush maybe and too much drive perhaps.

Also one big issue I see that I want to fix, is pronation, im pronating on my 1st serve after contact, but on the kick im not at all, and all good servers do, what do you think is causing this? Pronation on the 1st serve, bu lack of pronation on the 2nd serve?

Anyway im open to all suggestions about what to try, and also how to fix my pronation problem and if I should go step by step im willing to do that for sake of fixing it and really building a good kick serve.

Here are the videos comparing my 1st and 2nd serve, my 1st serve was slice down the T, and my 2nd serve was kick (or at least an attempt to hit kick lol... well I do feel its kind of a kick as it kicks right, but idk seems like too much drive and not enough spin, maybe some sort of aggressive kick).

@nytennisaddict @J011yroger @rogerroger917 @S&V-not_dead_yet @mad dog1 @BallBag @IowaGuy @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @ChaelAZ @mcs1970 @Keendog @Dan R @bitcoinoperated @SystemicAnomaly

Btw @rogerroger917 I know ur not really into watching alot of vids lately but watch the 1st serve one at least, its short, look how much better im moving my weight INTO the ball, remember how I used to move it completely left and lose balance?

baby steps.. still a long way to go but its much better than it was

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
Ok guys, need some help, my 1st serve has reached a pretty decent level where im satisfied with it, of course im going to keep improving it, don't get me wrong, but its the one shot that is my biggest weapon, so currently my priorities are other things, but I will still work on it alot in the summer by target practice etc..

Anyway, my biggest priority currently (considering im starting to play leagues and tournaments in summer) is getting my 2nd serve in check, before a ton of match play makes my technique ingrained too much, so I have a good technical fundation to build on.

Was just wondering what you guys think I need to improve with my kick serve, its not consistent at all yet, I need to make it consistent so I can hit 99 out of 100 and that they are quality ones.

I was focusing specially on letting the ball drop lower like J011y suggested a while ago, but im not sure if its right or it should be even lower.

It does seem to kick to the right, but something is not right, I feel like, it seems too have not enough brush maybe and too much drive perhaps.

Also one big issue I see that I want to fix, is pronation, im pronating on my 1st serve after contact, but on the kick im not at all, and all good servers do, what do you think is causing this? Pronation on the 1st serve, bu lack of pronation on the 2nd serve?

Anyway im open to all suggestions about what to try, and also how to fix my pronation problem and if I should go step by step im willing to do that for sake of fixing it and really building a good kick serve.

Here are the videos comparing my 1st and 2nd serve, my 1st serve was slice down the T, and my 2nd serve was kick (or at least an attempt to hit kick lol... well I do feel its kind of a kick as it kicks right, but idk seems like too much drive and not enough spin, maybe some sort of aggressive kick).

@nytennisaddict @J011yroger @rogerroger917 @S&V-not_dead_yet @mad dog1 @BallBag @IowaGuy @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @ChaelAZ @mcs1970 @Keendog @Dan R @bitcoinoperated @SystemicAnomaly

Btw @rogerroger917 I know ur not really into watching alot of vids lately but watch the 1st serve one at least, its short, look how much better im moving my weight INTO the ball, remember how I used to move it completely left and lose balance? baby steps.. still a long way to go but its much better than it was

Your kick serve swing path is still more or less in line with your target. To get more spin and less drive, the swing path needs to point away from your target and more parallel to the BL. It's counter-intuitive to swing in that direction because we're accustomed to swinging towards where we want the ball to go [baseball, hockey, golf [well, I brush the golf ball too but that's called bad golf], etc.].

Watch Salzy demonstrate: at 6:20, he starts talking about swing path.

Deleted member 23235 · Jan 20, 2019

imo all the fundamentals are there.. beyond my ability to point out anything significant.

but regarding the brush, i’d just recommend experimenting with different contact positions (lol, an erratic toss might do that automatically for you)... sometimes just goofing around with serves leads me to an aha (like when I was trying to hit as much side spin as possible), or challenging a buddy to a serve contest (HORSE in basketball if anyone knows it)... so we will hit kick/slice from the back fence, in one leg, etc,...

and you’ll get a sense of varying amounts of brush, and it’s affect on the ball. sometimes you don’t want too much kick because it slows down the serve overall too much. or vice versa, if it’s too predictable, you need to kick it more. there are some folks (typically tall 2hbh) where i’m better off not hitting the kick at all, and slice it low (but % suffers)

then do explosive leg workouts, etc, to help with rhs (can never have too much!)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

nytennisaddict said:
imo all the fundamentals are there.. beyond my ability to point out anything significant.

but regarding the brush, i’d just recommend experimenting with different contact positions (lol, an erratic toss might do that automatically for you)... sometimes just goofing around with serves leads me to an aha (like when I was trying to hit as much side spin as possible), or challenging a buddy to a serve contest (HORSE in basketball if anyone knows it)... so we will hit kick/slice from the back fence, in one leg, etc,...

and you’ll get a sense of varying amounts of brush, and it’s affect on the ball. sometimes you don’t want too much kick because it slows down the serve overall too much. or vice versa, if it’s too predictable, you need to kick it more. there are some folks (typically tall 2hbh) where i’m better off not hitting the kick at all, and slice it low (but % suffers)

then do explosive leg workouts, etc, to help with rhs (can never have too much!)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yea im experimenting more low contact.. more high.., more sideways, different swingpaths, and yes sometimes i get a rly cool brushy spinny kick but cant rly lock onto it, but i just started focusing on this and im playing rarely, but rly wanna get it down till summer

the biggest thing i dont get id why im not pronating on the kick

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Your kick serve swing path is still more or less in line with your target. To get more spin and less drive, the swing path needs to point away from your target and more parallel to the BL. It's counter-intuitive to swing in that direction because we're accustomed to swinging towards where we want the ball to go [baseball, hockey, golf [well, I brush the golf ball too but that's called bad golf], etc.].

Watch Salzy demonstrate: at 6:20, he starts talking about swing path.

When i was watching my vid i though i was hitting enough sideways but after this vid i have to evaluate that again lol

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
When i was watching my vid i though i was hitting enough sideways but after this vid i have to evaluate that again lol

Compare your swing path to Salzy's; big difference.

Here's another drill that's way less dynamic and therefore much easier to execute:

https://www.essentialtennis.com/ultimate-kick-serve-drill-tennis-lesson/

Notice when he rolls the ball up and over his hand, the swing path is completely NOT in the direction that the ball is moving in. Also, notice that the mistake he points out is I think what you're doing: the swing path is still mostly towards the target.

Think of it like a windshield wiper: it moves parallel to the window and perpendicular to the direction the car is pointed. That's a reasonably analogy to the kick serve swing path.

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Compare your swing path to Salzy's; big difference.

Here's another drill that's way less dynamic and therefore much easier to execute:

https://www.essentialtennis.com/ultimate-kick-serve-drill-tennis-lesson/

Notice when he rolls the ball up and over his hand, the swing path is completely NOT in the direction that the ball is moving in. Also, notice that the mistake he points out is I think what you're doing: the swing path is still mostly towards the target.

Think of it like a windshield wiper: it moves parallel to the window and perpendicular to the direction the car is pointed. That's a reasonably analogy to the kick serve swing path.

Yes ur right, now it makes sense why the ball has so much drive and not enough brush.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
Yes ur right, now it makes sense why the ball has so much drive and not enough brush.

it's interesting that I never thought about these mechanics; my high school coach probably said "swing like this" and I just copied him. it wasn't until I joined this forum and started watching videos that I realized I was actually doing it more or less correctly [with a lot of refinements still to be achieved].

Which is why good players don't necessarily make for good coaches: the good player can execute but can he explain?

IowaGuy · Jan 20, 2019

What grip are you using?

IowaGuy · Jan 20, 2019

Rafter: one of the best kick serves of all time:

Kevo · Jan 20, 2019

Yo @FiReFTW, you know what I always say right?

Toss is the BOSS!

That rafter series from @IowaGuy (TY) saves me from having to describe it in words, but get that toss overhead and not so far in front. You really need to be swinging more up with the racquet.

Chas Tennis · Jan 20, 2019

Before impact.____________Impact____________________Frame after impact. Blue line is maximum height of racket. Red line indicates a shadow of the elbow area.

I believe that the racket does not rise from before impact to after impact. It looks lower than the blue line one frame after impact. Improve video to show more clearly the necessary rise in the racket during impact.

I have posted the racket position before, during and after impact for the kick serve including the larger racket face angle closed at impact.

If these photos disappear just look at the video - the frame before, during and after impact. For single frame use the "," and "." keys.

The red line indicates shadows at the elbow. Instead of shadows a piece of tape on the upper arm can indicate ISR directly. Enough ISR before impact?

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

IowaGuy said:
What grip are you using?

Continental for all my serves.

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

Chas Tennis said:
Before impact.____________Impact____________________Frame after impact. Blue line is maximum height of racket. Red line indicates a shadow of the elbow area.

I believe that the racket does not rise from before impact to after impact. It looks lower than the blue line one frame after impact. Improve video to show more clearly the necessary rise in the racket during impact.

I have posted the racket position before, during and after impact for the kick serve including the larger racket face angle closed at impact.

If these photos disappear just look at the video - the frame before, during and after impact. For single frame use the "," and "." keys.

The red line indicates shadows at the elbow. Instead of shadows a piece of tape on the upper arm can indicate ISR directly. Enough ISR before impact?

Toss seems like its fine and over the head @Kevo ? But seems like what Chas said that my racquet doesn't rise much is correct, Rafter contact point seems lower, I mean the racquet is lower when he contacts the ball, so I should let the ball drop lower assuming thts correct.

Kevo · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
Toss seems like its fine and over the head @Kevo ? But seems like what Chas said that my racquet doesn't rise much is correct, Rafter contact point seems lower, I mean the racquet is lower when he contacts the ball, so I should let the ball drop lower assuming thts correct.

It's too far into the court I think. It looks like you are stretching forward a good bit at contact. I think there are a couple of other things you might want to look at, but I'd wait on those things until the ball is in a better position. They might end up fine after the contact point is in a better location.

mad dog1 · Jan 20, 2019

Kevo said:
It's too far into the court I think. It looks like you are stretching forward a good bit at contact. I think there are a couple of other things you might want to look at, but I'd wait on those things until the ball is in a better position. They might end up fine after the contact point is in a better location.

You are correct because @FiReFTW 2nd serves are more like 1st serves.

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

Yeah that makes sense, you guys are right, I did try to toss it into the court a bit, because I looked at some side motions of kick serves and noticed that they seem to also toss it into the court, but I might have been exagerating it I guess.

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

Can't wait to try all these things out the next time im on court, and experimenting a bit, finding a good balance of this all and taking everything into consideration.

Luckily I still have almost 4 months to put it all together.

mad dog1 · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
Yeah that makes sense, you guys are right, I did try to toss it into the court a bit, because I looked at some side motions of kick serves and noticed that they seem to also toss it into the court, but I might have been exagerating it I guess.

If you were looking at pro kick serves, they do toss more into the court than rec players because they explode up and into the court more than rec players.

But if you compare a pro’s 1st serve vs kick serve, they don’t toss nearly as far into the court on their kick serve.

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

mad dog1 said:
If you were looking at pro kick serves, they do toss more into the court than rec players because they explode up and into the court more than rec players.

But if you compare a pro’s 1st serve vs kick serve, they don’t toss nearly as far into the court on their kick serve.

It looks pretty similar here tho, which is odd, they must throw the 1st serve further in, must be some coincidence or maybe some angle differences here

FiReFTW · Jan 20, 2019

It seems like an EXTREMELY into the court toss for a kick serve

mad dog1 · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
It seems like an EXTREMELY into the court toss for a kick serve

As usual you’re focusing on the wrong details. His toss is over his head. Look at where the ball is in relation to the position of his head. That’s what allows you to brush up the back of the ball. If it’s not over your head, you can’t brush up the back of the ball.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
When i was watching my vid i though i was hitting enough sideways but after this vid i have to evaluate that again lol

Compare your swing path to Salzy's; big difference.

Here's another drill that's way less dynamic and so much easier to execute:

https://www.essentialtennis.com/ultimate-kick-serve-drill-tennis-lesson/

Notice the mistake he points out of people trying to roll the ball over the hand towards the direction of the target instead of upwards and, continuing on that arc, parallel to the BL.

Think of it like windshield wiper, which moves perpendicular to the plane of the glass and parallel to the window.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 20, 2019

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Think of it like windshield wiper, which moves perpendicular to the plane of the glass and parallel to the window.

Another analogy: spinning a basketball on your finger. How do you impart momentum to the ball so it spins? You have to brush the ball tangentially. Trying to use a direct force path will result in the ball toppling off of your finger.

Chas Tennis · Jan 20, 2019

FiReFTW said:
It seems like an EXTREMELY into the court toss for a kick serve

Chas Tennis said:
....................................................................
..................................................................................................................................
I have posted the racket position before, during and after impact for the kick serve including the larger racket face angle closed at impact.
...........................................................................................................

The Federer "second serve" is probably a kick serve and shows: "......the larger racket face angle closed at impact."

Cross and Lindsay in their book Technical Tennis discuss how the racket meets the ball to get topspin, sidespin and gyrospin as for the kick serve. To first contact the top half of the ball the racket has to be closed at first contact. I believe that if you do not get that closed angle you would get a top spin serve.

It takes careful camera placement and clear high speed video to see how closed the racket is at impact. About 15 degrees closed is an estimate. More references and videos on the closed racket for the kick serve are needed because if you don't have that it may be impossible to get a kick serve.

Curious · Jan 20, 2019

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Think of it like windshield wiper, which moves perpendicular to the plane of the glass and parallel to the window.

But let’s not forget that that plane still needs to be angled forward. Otherwise the ball will go nowhere you intended!

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 20, 2019

Curious said:
But let’s not forget that that plane still needs to be angled forward. Otherwise the ball will go nowhere you intended!

it was an analogy, designed to get people to think about the motion of something isn't necessarily aligned with where the main body is heading. I would think if someone has a problem hitting a kick, it's more likely due to the swing path being too direct rather than too indirect, as both Salzy and Westermann demonstrated.

Curious · Jan 20, 2019

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
it was an analogy, designed to get people to think about the motion of something isn't necessarily aligned with where the main body is heading. I would think if someone has a problem hitting a kick, it's more likely due to the swing path being too direct rather than too indirect, as both Salzy and Westermann demonstrated.

I was one of those on the other end of the spectrum trying to swing far too much sideways until I fixed it adding the forward motion along with the windshield wiping to the side as you described. Now it’s fast and penetrating as well as kicking rather than nice and slow but with topspin as it was in the past.

JohnYandell · Jan 20, 2019

Side view video pls.

Kevo · Jan 21, 2019

FiReFTW said:
It looks pretty similar here tho, which is odd, they must throw the 1st serve further in, must be some coincidence or maybe some angle differences here

Well, in actuality the thing that really matters is how the racquet approaches and contacts the ball. So the main thing you need to achieve is a proper racquet path. Some guys will be able to throw the ball in farther, and maybe you will be able to do that as well, but firstly you need to make sure you can achieve the proper racquet approach to the ball. The easiest way to do that on a kick serve, IMO, is to toss the ball more directly over your head or even slightly behind.

Go to 32 seconds and advance frame by frame. My attempt to embed with the time set didn't work.

Also if you look at that top video frame by frame right around where you took that grab, you'll see Fed's arm almost straight up, and his hand is only a racquet length from the ball with the ball pretty much above his nose. The racquet is at about 90 degrees to his arm. So in the next two frames to contact he rotates the frame into the inside of the ball and chops up that inside edge, then hits the ball, and then finishes with the Full Pronate™.

Those couple of frames are where the magic happens, but you to be just behind the ball with the hand to get the right angle of attack on the ball. I think you are just overextended right before contact and aren't getting that snap up to the inside edge of the ball.

But, yeah, a side angle would probably be helpful.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Jan 21, 2019

Trying too hard to cut it - results in little to no pronation. Ball toss is too high (by about 6 inches) - racket to arm angle is too big and generates less topspin. Swing is too in line with the target - results in a sliced kick.

On the ad side, put out a kick serve toss and try to hit a flat-ish serve into the side fence before it crosses the net (you might want to lower your toss first). The goal is to hit through the ball using a swing parallel to the baseline and pronation. That's that the swing path should feel like, you should feel like you're going parallel to the baseline. Next, swing up into contact with the same feeling - you should now be swinging up the left side of the ball and along the baseline to your right. You should also notice that now you're pronating on every kick serve (or the instructions somehow weren't clear enough and you've got and appendage stuck in a fan).

FiReFTW · Jan 21, 2019

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
Trying too hard to cut it - results in little to no pronation. Ball toss is too high (by about 6 inches) - racket to arm angle is too big and generates less topspin. Swing is too in line with the target - results in a sliced kick.

On the ad side, put out a kick serve toss and try to hit a flat-ish serve into the side fence before it crosses the net (you might want to lower your toss first). The goal is to hit through the ball using a swing parallel to the baseline and pronation. That's that the swing path should feel like, you should feel like you're going parallel to the baseline. Next, swing up into contact with the same feeling - you should now be swinging up the left side of the ball and along the baseline to your right. You should also notice that now you're pronating on every kick serve (or the instructions somehow weren't clear enough and you've got and appendage stuck in a fan).

Thats quite an interesting way to look at it, will try it out for sure next weekend. Will report back.

ONgame · Jan 21, 2019

Did not read entire thread. Only watched videos.

Proper serves (like yours, very good serves) - Imagine standing sideways, toss and pronate. You will notice pronation never has anything to do with adding spin. Pronation just hits the ball into the court. The swing path gives the ball its spin.
To me, your first and second serve flight paths look very similar.
My take on kick serve is if you want it to bounce higher/kick, you give it more arc and more height, a ball coming down at a steeper angle would kick higher.

Chas Tennis · Jan 21, 2019

Kevo said:
......................... The easiest way to do that on a kick serve, IMO, is to toss the ball more directly over your head or even slightly behind.

Go to 32 seconds and advance frame by frame. My attempt to embed with the time set didn't work.

...........................................................

The advice "to toss the ball more directly over your head or even slightly behind" is very often given for the kick serve on the internet and it is repeated in many posts. It is completely wrong and misleading. If you look at the Federer video, you can see why. The ball is impacted more over the head than the other type serves, that's true. But the head moves forward between toss release and impact, as all high speed videos show. The toss is to a spot well in front of the head and then the head is moved forward to under that spot. Watch the Federer video and look at his head position when the toss is released and his head position at impact.

Some kick serves, probably effective at the rec level, can probably be hit without much forward body motion. But they are not the technique being used at the high level.

Chas Tennis · Jan 21, 2019

Looking at the slice serve, a shadow at the elbow shows that internal shoulder rotation occurs before impact. Compare the red lines for the kick serve without much movement to the shadows seen in the slice serve. The shadow is on the forearm and close to the elbow for the slice serve.

To avoid misinterpretations of elbow shadows with motion blur taken with indoor lighting, high speed videos in direct sunlight would show elbow shadows much better.

Keendog · Jan 21, 2019

Chas Tennis said:
The advice "to toss the ball more directly over your head or even slightly behind" is very often given for the kick serve on the internet and it is repeated in many posts. It is completely wrong and misleading. If you look at the Federer video, you can see why. The ball is impacted more over the head than the other type serves, that's true. But the head moves forward between toss release and impact, as all high speed videos show. The toss is to a spot well in front of the head and then the head is moved forward to under that spot. Watch the Federer video and look at his head position when the toss is released and his head position at impact.

Some kick serves, probably effective at the rec level, can probably be hit without much forward body motion. But they are not the technique being used at the high level.

I think that is unique to federer though to disguise his serve. I think others may be a better example to look at when learning the serve. Tsitsipas, Stosur, Wawrinka all seem to throw it over their head more, and Jeff Salzentein mentions it in his video. Wawrinka is prbably a good example to look at as his motion is very simple. So I don't think it is right to find one pro that doesn't do something and say it is wrong.

Keendog · Jan 21, 2019

Exhibit A. Kick serve on right, flat serve left. He has not moved his body to the right more with the same toss on kick serve as you claim, in fact opposite is true.

Keendog · Jan 21, 2019

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
You should also notice that now you're pronating on every kick serve (or the instructions somehow weren't clear enough and you've got and appendage stuck in a fan).

FiReFTW said:
Thats quite an interesting way to look at it, will try it out for sure next weekend. Will report back.

Hopefully not the appendage in a fan part...

Chas Tennis · Jan 21, 2019

Keendog said:
I think that is unique to federer though to disguise his serve. I think others may be a better example to look at when learning the serve. Tsitsipas, Stosur, Wawrinka all seem to do that, and Jeff Salzentein mentions it in his video. Wawrinka is prbably a good example to look at as his motion is very simple. So I don't think it is right to find one pro that doesn't do something and say it is wrong.

The "serve doctor" mentions if you bend knees to lean back more it opens space for you to add different spin to, so I think if you don't have a lot of knee bend then you may have to change the toss more.

I try to stick to issues that can be resolved by frames of clear high speed videos, in a very short time. Can you supply a video of an ATP server that keeps his head about the same location from toss release to impact. The main motion is forward and therefore a side camera view shows that direction best.

Keendog · Jan 21, 2019

Chas Tennis said:
I try to stick to issues that can be resolved by frames of clear high speed videos, in a very short time. Can you supply a video of an ATP server that keeps his head about the same location from toss release to impact. The main motion is forward and therefore a side camera view shows that direction best.

Sorry but your semantic bio motions is not going to help fireftw here. As we say in these parts, I've called bull on your post and posted a wawrinka photo but I'm gonna leave it there to not derail OP's thread. If you believe the kick serve toss advice given herein is inaccurate maybe start a new thread on that topic??

Chas Tennis · Jan 21, 2019

Evidence of head moving forward between the toss release and impact.

Keendog · Jan 21, 2019

Chas Tennis said:
Evidence of head moving forward between the toss release and impact.

Chas when people say "toss the ball over your head more", they mean to the left in your photo, not to the bottom of the photo... They say that because if you look at this guy's head when tossing, it is looking right, hence over his head is to the left. Doesn't mean the toss won't go into the court a bit.

Your photos prove the point in fact.

Chas Tennis · Jan 21, 2019

You say things to communicate. How will the player hearing "Toss the ball over your head" know that it means "to the left in your photo" and also that the head moves forward almost 3 feet, without seeing this special Toly/Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead photograph, which happens to be the best photograph in the entire world to illustrate this truth?

Keendog said:
I think that is unique to federer though to disguise his serve. I think others may be a better example to look at when learning the serve. Tsitsipas, Stosur, Wawrinka all seem to throw it over their head more, and Jeff Salzentein mentions it in his video. Wawrinka is prbably a good example to look at as his motion is very simple. So I don't think it is right to find one pro that doesn't do something and say it is wrong.

Do you still think what you say here "I think that is unique to federer though to disguise his serve........." still makes sense if the meaning of "Toss the ball over your head' really morphs in meaning to 'Toss the ball to the left and three feet forward'?

'Toss the ball and then move forward so that you impact the ball about over your head.' is not so simple, but it is true. It should be clarified with pictures or videos.

Keendog · Jan 21, 2019

Chas Tennis said:
You say things to communicate. How will the player hearing "Toss the ball over your head" know that it means "to the left in your photo" and also that the head moves forward almost 3 feet, without seeing this special Toly/Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead photograph, which happens to be the best photograph in the entire world to illustrate this truth?

Do you still think what you say here "I think that is unique to federer though to disguise his serve........." still makes sense if the meaning of "Toss the ball over your head' really morphs in meaning to 'Toss the ball to the left and three feet forward'?

'Toss the ball and then move forward so that you impact the ball about over your head.' is not so simple, but it is true. It should be clarified with pictures or videos.

Eh you're posts are all the same I'm engaging the ignore

Kevo · Jan 22, 2019

Chas Tennis said:
The advice "to toss the ball more directly over your head or even slightly behind" is very often given for the kick serve on the internet and it is repeated in many posts. It is completely wrong and misleading.

Nah, it's neither wrong or misleading. Statements are made in a context and directed at some audience. My statement was not made in an exacting way and moreover I also qualified it by stating that "Well, in actuality the thing that really matters is how the racquet approaches and contacts the ball. So the main thing you need to achieve is a proper racquet path. Some guys will be able to throw the ball in farther, and maybe you will be able to do that as well, but firstly you need to make sure you can achieve the proper racquet approach to the ball."

You conveniently cut that out of my quote.

So no, it's not wrong and it's not misleading. People can figure out for themselves quite easily that if they toss the ball over their head and hit a decent kick that if they lean into the court more they will need to move their toss as well. I mean good grief Chas, give people some credit.

r2473 · Jan 22, 2019

Kevo said:
Go to 32 seconds and advance frame by frame.

That position is key. Fed's racquet is pointing straight down already and his hand is still above his head.

Even when you know how to do this, it is pretty darn hard to get the racquet in that position so early. I try to get it in that position by the time my hand is at eye level.

It's quite a eureka moment when you "get it". And I'd say very few rec tennis players ever do. It's nearly impossible to explain. But like anything, once you get it, you wonder what took you so long. It's not really hard. But it's so different than what you think it would be. At least is was for me. Looking back, some of the advice I was given as I was trying to get it makes perfect sense now. But at the time, I didn't understand at all.

r2473 · Jan 22, 2019

Kevo said:
Well, in actuality the thing that really matters is how the racquet approaches and contacts the ball. So the main thing you need to achieve is a proper racquet path. Some guys will be able to throw the ball in farther, and maybe you will be able to do that as well, but firstly you need to make sure you can achieve the proper racquet approach to the ball. The easiest way to do that on a kick serve, IMO, is to toss the ball more directly over your head or even slightly behind.

Go to 32 seconds and advance frame by frame. My attempt to embed with the time set didn't work.

Also if you look at that top video frame by frame right around where you took that grab, you'll see Fed's arm almost straight up, and his hand is only a racquet length from the ball with the ball pretty much above his nose. The racquet is at about 90 degrees to his arm. So in the next two frames to contact he rotates the frame into the inside of the ball and chops up that inside edge, then hits the ball, and then finishes with the Full Pronate™.

Those couple of frames are where the magic happens, but you to be just behind the ball with the hand to get the right angle of attack on the ball. I think you are just overextended right before contact and aren't getting that snap up to the inside edge of the ball.

But, yeah, a side angle would probably be helpful.

You really can't explain it any better than this.

But if you don't already know what Kevo is saying, I don't think you'll understand it.

mad dog1 · Jan 22, 2019

Keendog said:
Chas when people say "toss the ball over your head more", they mean to the left in your photo, not to the bottom of the photo... They say that because if you look at this guy's head when tossing, it is looking right, hence over his head is to the left. Doesn't mean the toss won't go into the court a bit.

Your photos prove the point in fact.

Yup. For kick serve, you toss the ball over where your head will be at the point you hit the ball. For rec players who don’t launch their bodies into the court it might be at the baseline over their heads whereas for pros, it might be a lot farther into the court.

But high speed video required...

Hmgraphite1 · Jan 22, 2019

Can really see fed pronating through parallel to the baseline

Pete Player · Jan 23, 2019

I shuffled the thread thru at quite a speed, so could have missed if it was mentioned, but no-one seems to talk about the rhs at all.

It is all about the impact position and such, which is fine and apropriate, but a really solid kick serve has if not the same, close the same rhs as a flat screamer at 120 mph flat at the top level.

Most rec ”kick-serves” are hit with way less speed than a flat effort and the result is a lame side- or topspin serve, if not a darted ball at the service box with some side spin on it.

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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer

1st serve vs 2nd serve pronation problem

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