MTO's have to go!

Robert F · Sep 10, 2020

What a great match tonight between Serena and Vika. Serena played some of her best tennis in years especially in the first set. Impressive that Vika turned it around.

The only disappointment was the MTO. No clear ankle roll. Thank goodness Vika kept her cool and rode it out well.

They either have to get rid of MTO's--meaning either play injured or default the match. Or they have to have stronger restrictions or benefits for the opponent sitting on the sidelines.

I say consider the following (maybe not all but something):
1.) Get penalized a game if you take an MTO. Then take as many MTOs as you want in a match just lose a game PER MTO.
2.) Opponent may hit with coach/hitting partner during the MTO.
3.) Based on injury trainer could medically disqualify player to prevent long term damage.
4.) MTO's can only be taken before you serve. So if you strain something you have to wait until your serve.

I'm just tired of MTOs being used to cool off opponents.

ND-13 · Sep 10, 2020

Surprised umpire allowed a MTO at a 40-40 point. That was clearly to derail momentum.

A rookie would have crumbled but Vika is an experienced cookie.

Raul_SJ · Sep 10, 2020

Must give the benefit of the doubt to the injured player.

Raul_SJ · Sep 10, 2020

ND-13 said:
Surprised umpire allowed a MTO at a 40-40 point. That was clearly to derail momentum.

A rookie would have crumbled but Vika is an experienced cookie.

That was rather suspicious. Don't think I've ever seen an MTO at Deuce.
What kind of jackassery was Serena trying to pull there?

SinneGOAT · Sep 10, 2020

I think we should keep them because what if they actually are injured? Perhaps make the rules for what constitutes a mto stricter?

MeatTornado · Sep 10, 2020

ND-13 said:
Surprised umpire allowed a MTO at a 40-40 point. That was clearly to derail momentum.

A rookie would have crumbled but Vika is an experienced cookie.

The fact that it was on her own service game is probably why. That's a really dumb time to take a tactical MTO.

dahcovixx · Sep 10, 2020

MeatTornado said:
The fact that it was on her own service game is probably why. That's a really dumb time to take a tactical MTO.

She was up 40-0 on her serve

MeatTornado · Sep 10, 2020

SinneGOAT said:
I think we should keep them because what if they actually are injured? Perhaps make the rules for what constitutes a mto stricter?

Tonight was actually an example of an MTO I like, same with Novak the other day. Something goes wrong on the court (an awkward fall, rolling an ankle, pulling something, etc) and the player immediately stops play to call the trainer because they need to get patched up.

That's what the rule was made for. It wasn't made for someone coming into the match a little sore and after an hour of play they're feeling worse so they stop play to get a massage for 6 minutes to loosen up. That's not an on-court injury.

ND-13 · Sep 10, 2020

MeatTornado said:
The fact that it was on her own service game is probably why. That's a really dumb time to take a tactical MTO.

Serena knew that was a HUGE HUGE point to come, given Azarenka came from 0-40 to win the nexr 3 points.

No better time to take an MTO (okay may be Azarenka serving at 5-3 could have been equally good)

Aussie Darcy · Sep 10, 2020

Didn’t Djokovic literally do this the same day as the default?

Lleytonstation · Sep 10, 2020

MeatTornado said:
Tonight was actually an example of an MTO I like, same with Novak the other day. Something goes wrong, on the court (an awkward fall, rolling an ankle, pulling something, etc) and the player immediately stops play to call the trainer because they need to get patched up.

That's what the rule was made for. It wasn't made for someone coming into the match a little sore and after an hour of play they're feeling worse so they stop play to get a massage for 6 minutes to loosen up. That's not an on-court injury.

Rule should be simple. You get 2 free MTO's but only on your serve or if the injury happens during a point.

After that it is a game penalty.

The only issue with this is determining the injury during a point, I guess you could fake it.

Lleytonstation · Sep 10, 2020

Aussie Darcy said:
Didn’t Djokovic literally do this the same day as the default?

Yes. If it is an immediate injury it should be fine. As @MeatTornado said, that is what the MTO is for.

Aussie Darcy · Sep 10, 2020

Lleytonstation said:
Yes. If it is an immediate injury it should be fine. As @MeatTornado said, that is what the MTO is for.

Well there’s your problem. Nobody knows for sure if it is or isn’t an immediate injury. I was watching and I agree it didn’t look like it but who are we to judge whether or not Someone is in pain? Imagine a player asking for it, being denied and then having done serious damage and it impacting their career?

Too hard to change.

ND-13 · Sep 10, 2020

Every player does it. Serena did it again.

But when the opponent wins ultimately it feels there is some divine intervention.

Lleytonstation · Sep 10, 2020

Aussie Darcy said:
Well there’s your problem. Nobody knows for sure if it is or isn’t an immediate injury. I was watching and I agree it didn’t look like it but who are we to judge whether or not Someone is in pain? Imagine a player asking for it, being denied and then having done serious damage and it impacting their career?

Too hard to change.

Okay then make it 2 MTO's anytime you want and any after that is a game.

Fedinkum · Sep 10, 2020

I view MTO differently these days. I think they might as well give players the proper break between sets. Remove MTO and give all players a proper longer break So they can go harder with better standards of tennis. Right now, MTO is BS.

r2473 · Sep 10, 2020

Only allow honest people to play tennis

Lleytonstation · Sep 10, 2020

Fedinkum said:
I view MTO differently these days. I think they might as well give players the proper break between sets. Remove MTO and give all players a proper longer break So they can go harder with better standards of tennis. Right now, MTO is BS.

This would not stop players from wanting to use MTO's.

dahcovixx · Sep 10, 2020

ND-13 said:
Serena knew that was a HUGE HUGE point to come, given Azarenka came from 0-40 to win the nexr 3 points.

No better time to take an MTO (okay may be Azarenka serving at 5-3 could have been equally good)

The chair never established serena was actually injured, she showed no signs of an ankle injury. Should of had to play at least a point to establish.

Only bad falls and obvious injuries should be given a MTO during a non change over.

Pablo was denied one last night at 5-0 on the change over in the 4th.

The chair needs to be questioned in this one, serena lost 3 points in a row and was visibly tired.

Arak · Sep 10, 2020

Serena was totally gassed and took the MTO just to catch her breath and regain composure.

Tennis_Hands · Sep 10, 2020

I have proposed an easy fix to that:

First MTO > forfeit your next service game
Second MTO > forfeit the next set
Third MTO > forfeit the match

If a player steps on court, he is fit to play. If he needs three MTO, that clearly isn't the case, and if he needs three MTO's and then goes on to win the match, he is clearly faking the severity of the problem to begin with.

Unfortunately, MTO's have become part of the disruptive tactics and if there is cheating it is apparently good for the show, and so no one wants to remove that.

Deleted member 770618 · Sep 10, 2020

I like when players use MTOs tactically. It's another layer to the game. It's another adversity the opposing player has to overcome.

Tennisfan339 · Sep 10, 2020

One MTO per match should be allowed. A number of reasons can cause it. Injury, drop in blood pressure, fainting, sudden need to vomit,...every players deserve the benefit of the doubt. Maybe Serena was faking today, maybe not. Who knows? You can't be 100% sure.

I agree about the match. high level like always with these 2. Very happy for Azarenka.

Lleytonstation · Sep 10, 2020

Tennis_Hands said:
I have proposed an easy fix to that:

First MTO > forfeit your next service game
Second MTO > forfeit the next set
Third MTO > forfeit the match

If a player steps on court, he is fit to play. If he needs three MTO, that clearly isn't the case, and if he needs three MTO's and then goes on to win the match, he is clearly faking the severity of the problem to begin with.

Unfortunately, MTO's have become part of the disruptive tactics and if there is cheating it is apparently good for the show, and so no one wants to remove that.

Always believed staying fit and healthy is part of the competition of sports.

junior74 · Sep 10, 2020

r2473 said:
Only allow honest people to play tennis

Honest and uninjured

r2473 · Sep 10, 2020

junior74 said:
Honest and uninjured

That would help too

Tennis_Hands · Sep 10, 2020

Lleytonstation said:
Always believed staying fit and healthy is part of the competition of sports.

It is, which is why I factor in the attitude towards "injuries" in the idea of competitiveness/mental strength. Most professional athletes deal with some sort of injury almost all the time. The way they carry themselves through those as well as their ability to stay on the top of their health issues is to me part of their competitiveness. If a player needs constant breaks to relieve himself from mental or physical pressure, he clearly isn't as mentally strong as someone, who carries on day in day out.

AnOctorokForDinner · Sep 10, 2020

What I would like to see...

No MTO during a game. Want to take one, forfeit the game.
Only take MTOs before your service game. Want to take one before the opponent's service game, forfeit it so your serve would come up next anyway.
One MTO per set. Want to take another, forfeit your next service game, and the opponent's next service game too in order for play to resume with you serving, so two games are forfeited.

Tshooter · Sep 10, 2020

Robert F said:
...Or they have to have stronger restrictions or benefits for the opponent sitting on the sidelines.

I say consider the following (maybe not all but something):
1.) Get penalized a game if you take an MTO. Then take as many MTOs as you want in a match just lose a game PER MTO.
2.) Opponent may hit with coach/hitting partner during the MTO.
3.) Based on injury trainer could medically disqualify player to prevent long term damage.
4.) MTO's can only be taken before you serve. So if you strain something you have to wait until your serve.

I'm just tired of MTOs being used to cool off opponents.

Your proposed fixes are interesting and worth considering but I’m not sure MTO reform will be a priority for the PTPA. Some players have won 17 Majors strategically using the MTO.

Bender · Sep 10, 2020

MeatTornado said:
The rule...wasn't made for someone coming into the match a little sore and after an hour of play they're feeling worse so they stop play to get a massage for 6 minutes to loosen up. That's not an on-court injury.

Nishikori:

mcs1970 · Sep 10, 2020

Have to keep them, but award that game to the opposing player if in middle of it or next game if during changeovers. Second MTO maybe 3 games. 3rd 5. It is not fair to your opponent regardless of whether you are faking it or not. So some meaningful reward should be given.

beard · Sep 10, 2020

I don't like abusing MTO but there is little that can be done... This is not Ancient Rome, live or die... Tennis is not sport like football or basketball, where trainer can replace player while doctor examines player...

Imagine there is rule, play or leave, how many matches would be stopped because players would think it's dangerous injure, just to realise it wasn't that bad just 5 or 10 minutes later... Or player continues playing just to get hurt even more because he didn't want to quit...

I haven't even heard players being to critical toward other players using MTO, it's too sensitive subject, and no one knows when he will need MTO...

Tennis_Hands · Sep 10, 2020

mcs1970 said:
Have to keep them, but award that game to the opposing player if in middle of it or next game if during changeovers. Second MTO maybe 3 games. 3rd 5. It is not fair to your opponent regardless of whether you are faking it or not. So some meaningful reward should be given.

IMO, the very idea of losing considerable ground, if one opts for a MTO, will weed out all those instances, where the players take it on a whim, and certainly those where they are trying to disrupt their opponent's game. One have to be very bold to know that he loses a big chunk of the potential initiative that he would get from playing on his opponent's mind, and do it regardless.

Tshooter · Sep 10, 2020

beard said:
I don't like abusing MTO but there is little that can be done...

Before throwing up your hands consider considering what OP asked you to consider.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/mtos-have-to-go.678586/post-14593544

beard · Sep 10, 2020

mcs1970 said:
Have to keep them, but award that game to the opposing player if in middle of it or next game if during changeovers. Second MTO maybe 3 games. 3rd 5. It is not fair to your opponent regardless of whether you are faking it or not. So some meaningful reward should be given.

Not fair to punish injured player... We should not assume player if faking by default...

Players do many on court things to disrupt opponent... This might be just one way of many and opponent should knows that and don't let him being distracted...

It's dangerous to touch this sensitive field, injuries... Better do something about other way of distraction players do...

beard · Sep 10, 2020

Tshooter said:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/mtos-have-to-go.678586/post-14593544

I don't understand what you wanted to say... MTOs won't go and I explained why...

Kozzy · Sep 10, 2020

I thought it was a BS MTO as well. But, it's hard to come up with a rule that would really stop it. Maybe you can take them whenever you want, but then you start your next service game at 0-30? That could be fun. And, at this point, pros should expect it, and have probably done it themselves (remember Azarenka herself at the AO way back when - she took an MTO for back pain that was way more about her nerves).

Tennis_Hands · Sep 10, 2020

Kozzy said:
I thought it was a BS MTO as well. But, it's hard to come up with a rule that would really stop it. Maybe you can take them whenever you want, but then you start your next service game at 0-30? That could be fun. And, at this point, pros should expect it, and have probably done it themselves (remember Azarenka herself at the AO way back when - she took an MTO for back pain that was way more about her nerves).

It is not hard at all. All one needs to do is incorporate in the rule a direct tradeoff for taking a MTO, so that those thinking about taking one are discouraged to do it for anything less than a serious issue.

The reason why it isn't done is spectacle.

Tshooter · Sep 10, 2020

beard said:
I don't understand what ~~you~~ OP wanted to say... MTOs won't go and I explained why...

(Edits added)

The OP was written in a very approachable manner IMO. In any case, I “explained“ why they won’t go in my reply to the OP.

mcs1970 · Sep 10, 2020

beard said:
Not fair to punish injured player... We should not assume player if faking by default...

Players do many on court things to disrupt opponent... This might be just one way of many and opponent should knows that and don't let him being distracted...

It's dangerous to touch this sensitive field, injuries... Better do something about other way of distraction players do...

No. I clearly mentioned whether one is faking or not, it is unfair to their opponent. It’s not that I don’t feel sorry if a player is genuinely hurt.

PeoplesChamp · Sep 10, 2020

beard said:
Not fair to punish injured player... We should not assume player if faking by default...

Players do many on court things to disrupt opponent... This might be just one way of many and opponent should knows that and don't let him being distracted...

It's dangerous to touch this sensitive field, injuries... Better do something about other way of distraction players do...

It's not necessarily about being distracted. Before matches and after rain delays there's a warm up period. Players have to get their timing down. Get their mind and body on the same page. No amount of mental focus can replace being out there and playing on time in the flow.

tonylg · Sep 10, 2020

Tennis_Hands said:
I have proposed an easy fix to that:

First MTO > forfeit your next service game
Second MTO > forfeit the next set
Third MTO > forfeit the match

If a player steps on court, he is fit to play. If he needs three MTO, that clearly isn't the case, and if he needs three MTO's and then goes on to win the match, he is clearly faking the severity of the problem to begin with.

Unfortunately, MTO's have become part of the disruptive tactics and if there is cheating it is apparently good for the show, and so no one wants to remove that.

I completely agree with this. It means an injured players can take an MTO rather than default, but the cost associated would prevent players from using the them as comfort and tactical breaks .. which is exactly what is happening now.

beard · Sep 10, 2020

PeoplesChamp said:
It's not necessarily about being distracted. Before matches and after rain delays there's a warm up period. Players have to get their timing down. Get their mind and body on the same page. No amount of mental focus can replace being out there and playing on time in the flow.

Ok, I agree non injured player can hit or something, its ok to change as rule.

beard · Sep 10, 2020

Tshooter said:
(Edits added)

The OP was written in a very approachable manner IMO. In any case, I “explained“ why they won’t go in my reply to the OP.

Ok, after edit I understand what you ment...
Of OP proposals only no 2 is reasonable, other wont happen 100%...

coolboarder · Sep 10, 2020

I agree that MTO is abused just to cool off opponents but rather than a game penalty, why not just give them 30-love in their service game when they resume the play after MTO. I do not mean love-30, I mean 30-love on the opponents' service game. A game penalty seems excessive but if you relieve the pressure off by rewarding your opponent a 30-love on their service game, he has to win two points rather than 4 points before moving on. If you are injured 30-30 or 40-40, just give your opponent the game and get the MTO treatment without any penalty on next service game.

They could easily make some MTO adjustment rule when there is clear injury. Players could easily fake their injury similar to a dive in soccer if they are desperate to shift the momentum. It is players' responsibility not to injure themselves by overextend their limits. Taping rolled ankles or knees, back rub seems to be most common treatment during the MTO. Arm, back, and leg rubs for a MTO is not the proper reason to get the treatment. Just request the taping ankles or knees is the reasonable or putting on band-aid for blisters. IT should be narrowed the scope of MTO.

PCB got a MTO and it seemed to give him a lift for 5th set on a Shapoalov's QF match. This shouldn't have been happening. Players lie about their injury when it is possible that cramp got to him. Cramp treatment is not a part of MTO so if any stiffness in the muscle from any part of the body shouldn't have been treated. Any stiffness in the hip, back, leg or arm is the cause of players at their limit and seek some relief from the muscle pressure shouldn't be allowed.

canta_Brian · Sep 10, 2020

MTO at end change only? You either battle through or forfeit any points required to get to ends.

not a huge penalty but enough to keep everyone honest maybe.

oldmanfan · Sep 10, 2020

beard said:
Not fair to punish injured player... We should not assume player if faking by default...

Players do many on court things to disrupt opponent... This might be just one way of many and opponent should knows that and don't let him being distracted...

It's dangerous to touch this sensitive field, injuries... Better do something about other way of distraction players do...

This is sports. Being fitter is part of your advantage.
If you are less fit than your opponent, there should be consequences. The current MTO rule, even if the MTO was for REAL injuries, actually punishes the healthy player (i.e. no immediate benefit in that moment) bc (s)he would lose his/her physical advantage once the injured player returns fitter, with nothing to show for it (i.e. zero points/games/sets advantage).

bbasher said:
I like when players use MTOs tactically. It's another layer to the game. It's another adversity the opposing player has to overcome.

This is sports. Being fitter is part of your advantage.
If you are less fit than your opponent, there should be consequences. The current MTO rule, even if the MTO was for REAL injuries, actually punishes the healthy player (i.e. no immediate benefit in that moment) bc (s)he would lose his/her physical advantage once the injured player returns fitter, with nothing to show for it (i.e. zero points/games/sets advantage).

Tennisfan339 said:
One MTO per match should be allowed. A number of reasons can cause it. Injury, drop in blood pressure, fainting, sudden need to vomit,...every players deserve the benefit of the doubt. Maybe Serena was faking today, maybe not. Who knows? You can't be 100% sure.

I agree about the match. high level like always with these 2. Very happy for Azarenka.

Sure, they can take a MTO, but there should be an advantage given to the opponent.
This is sports. Being fitter is part of your advantage.
If you are less fit than your opponent, there should be consequences. The current MTO rule, even if the MTO was for REAL injuries, actually punishes the healthy player (i.e. no immediate benefit in that moment) bc (s)he would lose his/her physical advantage once the injured player returns fitter, with nothing to show for it (i.e. zero points/games/sets advantage).

Tennis_Hands said:
I have proposed an easy fix to that:

First MTO > forfeit your next service game
Second MTO > forfeit the next set
Third MTO > forfeit the match

If a player steps on court, he is fit to play. If he needs three MTO, that clearly isn't the case, and if he needs three MTO's and then goes on to win the match, he is clearly faking the severity of the problem to begin with.

Unfortunately, MTO's have become part of the disruptive tactics and if there is cheating it is apparently good for the show, and so no one wants to remove that.

+++ one MILLION times!
That rewards the the healthier/fitter player while giving the injured player a chance to tend to their ailment. Also, this way, players can't game the rule without consequences, negatively affecting the fitter player.

You're hurt? You need an MTO? Sure, pay for it. It's only games/sets right?
The current approach to the MTO rule is a joke, and actually punishes the fitter player (i.e. it screws up their momentum/etc. and THEY are the fitter player!).

beard · Sep 10, 2020

mcs1970 said:
No. I clearly mentioned whether one is faking or not, it is unfair to their opponent. It’s not that I don’t feel sorry if a player is genuinely hurt.

No, this would lead to many matches canceled to injuries with no reason if players overestimate injury, and many players hurt them even more if they are stubborn to play further...
Injuries and health are sensitive and dangerous to mess with... Wont happen... Players them self wont allow that to happen, they are not gladiators...

Tennis_Hands · Sep 10, 2020

coolboarder said:
I agree that MTO is abused just to cool off opponents but rather than a game penalty, why not just give them 30-love in their service game when they resume the play after MTO. I do not mean love-30, I mean 30-love on the opponents' service game. A game penalty seems excessive but if you relieve the pressure off by rewarding your opponent a 30-love on their service game, he has to win two points rather than 4 points before moving on. If you are injured 30-30 or 40-40, just give your opponent the game and get the MTO treatment without any penalty on next service game.

They could easily make some MTO adjustment rule when there is clear injury. Players could easily fake their injury similar to a dive in soccer if they are desperate to shift the momentum. It is players' responsibility not to injure themselves by overextend their limits. Taping rolled ankles or knees, back rub seems to be most common treatment during the MTO. Arm, back, and leg rubs for a MTO is not the proper reason to get the treatment. Just request the taping ankles or knees is the reasonable or putting on band-aid for blisters. IT should be narrowed the scope of MTO.

PCB got a MTO and it seemed to give him a lift for 5th set on a Shapoalov's QF match. This shouldn't have been happening. Players lie about their injury when it is possible that cramp got to him. Cramp treatment is not a part of MTO so if any stiffness in the muscle from any part of the body shouldn't have been treated. Any stiffness in the hip, back, leg or arm is the cause of players at their limit and seek some relief from the muscle pressure shouldn't be allowed.

Why is it "excessive"?

You do realise that a person taking a MTO (and especially as the things stand now even in your opponent's service game) is trying to disrupt their opponent's momentum. Getting on serve even with 0-30 deficit still gives them enough hope to take advantage of the said disruption, as by definition they have better chances to hold in their service games. IF they automatically lose their service game and their opponent has the chance to pounce by continuing serving I really doubt that the strategical MTOs will pay off. Some still may try to use them, if they are desperate, but it is definitely past the point of equilibrium and in the territory of the diminishing returns.

TheGhostOfAgassi · Sep 10, 2020

I think if you take MTO you should lose a full game.
MTO is being used for massages and getting energy drinks, it has become ridiculous.

MTO's have to go!

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