Peak Djokovic vs Peak Federer...... splitting hairs?

MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster

Just watching highlights of this and it makes me wonder. Fed BARELY got by Novak in 2 tiebreaks and finally a break in the 3rd in 2007. We know what happened AO 2008. Djokovic also was beating Nadal in 2007 as well. I have 2 questions.

1. How good was Djokovic in 2007 compared to later on? I think his level is WAY too underrated. The man was already FANTASTIC in 07 and 08, granted he took a dip in 2010.
2. If they were both at their peaks who would win most of the matches? Obviously I like Fed more, but I have no horse in the race. Sway me please.

d4j3qwk-e6e09217-5603-4ba5-a975-b0df281c36a5.gif
 
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demrle

demrle

Professional
MichaelNadal said:

Just watching highlights of this and it makes me wonder. Fed BARELY got by Novak in 2 tiebreaks and finally a break in the 3rd in 2007. We know what happened AO 2008. Djokovic also was beating Nadal in 2007 as well. I have 2 questions.

1. How good was Djokovic in 2007 compared to later on? I think his level is WAY too underrated. The man was already FANTASTIC in 07 and 08, granted he took a dip in 2010.
2. If they were both at their peaks who would win most of the matches? Obviously I like Fed more, but I have no horse in the race. Sway me please.

d4j3qwk-e6e09217-5603-4ba5-a975-b0df281c36a5.gif
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1) He was good in 2007 but he had a bit of a mental blockage against Fed. Plus he couldn't stay at it long enough sometimes cause of his troubles breathing.

2) Fed is flashier but Novak wins more than 50% of the time in that scenario. He's more solid, less weaknesses. Fed's backhand always did him in to some extent, plus mentaly Novak's just a bit stronger.
 
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PerilousPear

PerilousPear

Professional
2007 Djokovic and 2011-onward Djokovic don't belong in the same sentence in terms of level of play. If Djokovic had to play another 5 setter in that tournament, he'd retire from exhaustion.

This was also the last slam peak Fred participated in, until mono Fred took his place for the most part of 2008.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I actually think their 2011 match was a harder hitting contest from the baseline, and more intense. A lot of people use that match to say since Federer had two match points, peak Federer would easily defeat peak Djokovic but tennis doesn't work that way. But yea peak to peak would be splitting hairs and they are close.
 
K-H

K-H

Hall of Fame
Its a weird one and I'll tell you why. Djokovic took it to peak federer a number of times when he was younger. The USO final, djokovic was just getting started in his career and federer at his peak struggled against him. Even in Montreal before that match. Then of course AO 08. Which makes you think, if young djokovic could do that to peak federer, nevermind djokovic at his best.

But then the weird part. When djokovic was at his peak, and federer was no longer at his best, Djokokic struggled against fed many times.
2011 Djokokic was one of the best Djokovic's and he lost at RG to federer. That was like legit one of the best djokovics and he couldn't do anything. In Wimbledon 19, djokovic was getting outplayed for the majority of the match against a 37/38 year old federer. This makes you think, what if federer was younger and a just a little faster, what would've happened then. So it really goes both ways
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
K-H said:
Its a weird one and I'll tell you why. Djokovic took it to peak federer a number of times when he was younger. The USO final, djokovic was just getting started in his career and federer at his peak struggled against him. Even in Montreal before that match. Then of course AO 08. Which makes you think, if young djokovic could do that to peak federer, nevermind djokovic at his best.

But then the weird part. When djokovic was at his peak, and federer was no longer at his best, Djokokic struggled against fed many times.
2011 Djokokic was one of the best Djokovic's and he lost at RG to federer. That was like legit one of the best djokovics and he couldn't do anything. In Wimbledon 19, djokovic was getting outplayed for the majority of the match against a 37/38 year old federer. This makes you think, what if federer was younger and a just a little faster, what would've happened then. So it really goes both ways
Click to expand...

I know, my head hurts lol. I really don't know!
 
demrle

demrle

Professional
K-H said:
Its a weird one and I'll tell you why. Djokovic took it to peak federer a number of times when he was younger. The USO final, djokovic was just getting started in his career and federer at his peak struggled against him. Even in Montreal before that match. Then of course AO 08. Which makes you think, if young djokovic could do that to peak federer, nevermind djokovic at his best.

But then the weird part. When djokovic was at his peak, and federer was no longer at his best, Djokokic struggled against fed many times.
2011 Djokokic was one of the best Djokovic's and he lost at RG to federer. That was like legit one of the best djokovics and he couldn't do anything. In Wimbledon 19, djokovic was getting outplayed for the majority of the match against a 37/38 year old federer. This makes you think, what if federer was younger and a just a little faster, what would've happened then. So it really goes both ways
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RG 2011 is not the best example. Djokovic succumbed to the pressure cause of the media hype and Federer swooped in and beat him. Djokovic was about to break the record for the best start of the season ever and everyone was hyping that and his upcoming clash with Nadal in the final. He looked past Federer like just about everyone else back then did. That match proves very little in the bigger context. Djokovic wins that match four times out of five.
 
S

Sabratha

Banned
demrle said:
RG 2011 is not the best example. Djokovic succumbed to the pressure cause of the media hype and Federer swooped in and beat him. Djokovic was about to break the record for the best start of the season ever and everyone was hyping that and his upcoming clash with Nadal in the final. He looked past Federer like just about everyone else back then did. That match proves very little in the bigger context. Djokovic wins that match four times out of five.
Click to expand...
His win at Wimbledon in 2012 was pretty impressive though.
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
demrle said:
RG 2011 is not the best example. Djokovic succumbed to the pressure cause of the media hype and Federer swooped in and beat him. Djokovic was about to break the record for the best start of the season ever and everyone was hyping that and his upcoming clash with Nadal in the final. He looked past Federer like just about everyone else back then did. That match proves very little in the bigger context. Djokovic wins that match four times out of five.
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Lol. That's worse than Mono excuse. That's exactly why Djokovic was an inch(more like mms) away from losing to Federer in the USO. And lost to him at next WB.

And 2007 USO F is mirror image of 2011 AO SF, Federer had chances to really take 2 out of the three sets. Just like Djokovic in 2007.

The reality is Djokovic played well in RG SF, and apart from that pathetic 2nd set, it was one of his best matches ever in the tournament.

For all talks of Djokovic domination it was 2-3 in slams in 2011-12, and few points away from 3-2.

It was after the RF97 that Djokovic completely pulled away.

Federer -Djokovic is always splitting hairs except on Slow HC like AO and Fast HC like Cincy.
 
demrle

demrle

Professional
ForehandCross said:
Lol. That's worse than Mono excuse. That's exactly why Djokovic was an inch(more like mms) away from losing to Federer in the USO. And lost to him at next WB.
And 2007 USO F is mirror image of 2011 AO SF, Federer had chances to really take 2 out of the three sets. Just like Djokovic in 2007.
The reality is Djokovic played well in RG SF, and apart from that pathetic 2nd set, it was one of his best matches ever in the tournament.
For all talks of Djokovic domination it was 2-3 in slams in 2011-12, and few points away from 3-2.
It was after the RF97 that Djokovic completely pulled away.
Federer -Djokovic is always splitting hairs except on Slow HC like AO and Fast HC like Cincy.
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Sure, you're right. I'm totally delusional. Federer was actually the better player in 2011. Go check the betting odds for the RG SF. Or check the ttw threads from back then. You'll see how everyone was expecting a hair-splitter in that match lmao.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
demrle said:
RG 2011 is not the best example. Djokovic succumbed to the pressure cause of the media hype and Federer swooped in and beat him. Djokovic was about to break the record for the best start of the season ever and everyone was hyping that and his upcoming clash with Nadal in the final. He looked past Federer like just about everyone else back then did. That match proves very little in the bigger context. Djokovic wins that match four times out of five.
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Very objective indeed.
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
demrle said:
Sure, you're right. I'm totally delusional. Federer was actually the better player in 2011. Go check the betting odds for the RG SF. Or check the ttw threads from back then. You'll see how everyone was expecting a hair-splitter in that match lmao.
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What are you even on about?

I speak of apples and you talk of oranges.

Djokovic was the better player the entire season and Federer however played out of his mind at RG and USO and almost took slam h2h lead.

What does it have to do with odds and TTW threads? Have you even seen the RG match? Djokovic was hitting his FH better than he ever has at Chatrier. He was being absolutely a mental giant in 4th set.

If someone says 2007 USO Djokovic only lost due to mental issues-----> @demrle YAYAYYYYYY

If someone says 2011 AO has the similar match progression ----> @dmerle BOOOOOOO

If someone says Federer could have lost 2007 USO F which he infact he won in 3-----> @demrle YAAYYAYYAAAY

If someone says Federer could have gone 2-1 in slams in 2011 Because he was a match point away-------> @demrle rle NOOOO.

If someone says Federer with PS 90 matched Djokovic in slams in 2011-12 Even when stats say so------> @demrle FAKE NEWS.
 
demrle

demrle

Professional
Your post is not "high" enough LOL, make sure the next one is higher. Just make sure not to get a heart attack.

If someone says 2007 USO Djokovic only lost due to mental issues-----> @demrle Babies are generaly weaker mentally and phisically than grown men
If someone says 2011 AO has the similar match progression ----> @dmerle Similar to what? To 2007? Are you sure you're well?
If someone says Federer could have lost 2007 USO F which he infact he won in 3-----> @demrle Anything's possible + you're lying
If someone says Federer could have gone 2-1 in slams in 2011 Because he was a match point away-------> @demrle He could have gone 2-1 but he should have gone 0-3
If someone says Federer with PS 90 matched Djokovic in slams in 2011-12 Even when stats say so------> @demrle He could have played with a badminton racquet if he so wished, his choice - his problem

If anybody says something @ForehandCross doesn't agree with -------> @ForehandCross foam at the mouth + 10 inch long blabber
 
HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
MichaelNadal said:

Just watching highlights of this and it makes me wonder. Fed BARELY got by Novak in 2 tiebreaks and finally a break in the 3rd in 2007. We know what happened AO 2008. Djokovic also was beating Nadal in 2007 as well. I have 2 questions.

1. How good was Djokovic in 2007 compared to later on? I think his level is WAY too underrated. The man was already FANTASTIC in 07 and 08, granted he took a dip in 2010.
2. If they were both at their peaks who would win most of the matches? Obviously I like Fed more, but I have no horse in the race. Sway me please.

d4j3qwk-e6e09217-5603-4ba5-a975-b0df281c36a5.gif
Click to expand...
Peak to peak goes this way imo. I'll count 4 slams, WTF, 9 masters

Slams :-


AO rebound ace :- roger 60-40
AO plexi slow :- nole 60-40
AO plexi fast :- 50-50

RG :- roger 55-45

Wimbledon :- roger 70-30

Uso before 2012 :- roger 60-40
Uso after 2012 :- nole 55-45


WTF :-


WTF Shanghai :- roger 70-30
WTF London :- roger 60-40


Masters :-

Indian wells :- 50-50
Miami :- nole 65-35
Monte carlo :- fed 60-40 (nole has more titles but matchup there favours roger)
Madrid/hamburg :- fed 55-45
Rome :- nole 65-35
Canada :- nole 60-40
Cincinnati :- fed 70-30
Shanghai :- fed 60-40 (nole has more titles but matchup there favours roger)
Paris :- nole 60-40



My definition of peakerer and peakovic are

Peakerer from 2005.
Peakovic from 2011.

Or if we're selectively picking their peaks from tournaments, then I'll go something like this :-

AO :- 2007 roger vs 2011 nole

FO :- 2006 roger vs 2013 nole

Wim :- 2005 roger vs 2015 nole

Uso :- 2006 roger vs 2011 nole

Wtf :- 2003 roger vs 2015 nole
 
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ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
demrle said:
Your post is not "high" enough LOL, make sure the next one is higher. Just make sure not to get a heart attack.

If someone says 2007 USO Djokovic only lost due to mental issues-----> @demrle Babies are generaly weaker mentally and phisically than grown men
If someone says 2011 AO has the similar match progression ----> @dmerle Similar to what? To 2007? Are you sure you're well?

Err what ? Federer had his chances in 1st set, he led 5-2 in the second. So he could be easily be 1-1 or even 2-0 like Djokovic in 2007 ,you sure you remember the match?


If someone says Federer could have lost 2007 USO F which he infact he won in 3-----> @demrle Anything's possible + you're lying

Yes just not when it comes to a match Djokovic won .

If someone says Federer could have gone 2-1 in slams in 2011 Because he was a match point away-------> @demrle

He could have gone 2-1 but he should have gone 0-3
0-3 , Why? because you said so? If he Djokovic really was that much better, he should never have let it go into a position where it could have gone 2-1, it should have been a definitive 3-0. But then he had to fend off M.Ps just to edge the slam h2h .



If someone says Federer with PS 90 matched Djokovic in slams in 2011-12 Even when stats say so------> @demrle

He could have played with a badminton racquet if he so wished, his choice - his problem

I am saying that Djokovic didn't pull away in bo5 till RF 97 Came into play. Which is proven factually in 2011-12 numbers. And remember this is when they didn't meet in WB 2011.


If anybody says something @ForehandCross doesn't agree with -------> @ForehandCross foam at the mouth + 10 inch long blabber

LOL.Ok, "foam at the mouth"? Thats very familiar. you are another MTF import I see.

I can't put my finger on who. Let me ponder for a while.
Click to expand...
 
demrle

demrle

Professional
ForehandCross said:
Your post is not "high" enough LOL, make sure the next one is higher. Just make sure not to get a heart attack.

If someone says 2007 USO Djokovic only lost due to mental issues-----> @demrle Babies are generaly weaker mentally and phisically than grown men
If someone says 2011 AO has the similar match progression ----> @dmerle Similar to what? To 2007? Are you sure you're well?

Err what ? Federer had his chances in 1st set, he led 5-2 in the second. So he could be easily be 1-1 or even 2-0 like Djokovic in 2007 ,you sure you remember the match?


If someone says Federer could have lost 2007 USO F which he infact he won in 3-----> @demrle Anything's possible + you're lying

Yes just not when it comes to a match Djokovic won .

If someone says Federer could have gone 2-1 in slams in 2011 Because he was a match point away-------> @demrle

He could have gone 2-1 but he should have gone 0-3
0-3 , Why? because you said so? If he Djokovic really was that much better, he should never have let it go into a position where it could have gone 2-1, it should have been a definitive 3-0. But then he had to fend off M.Ps.



If someone says Federer with PS 90 matched Djokovic in slams in 2011-12 Even when stats say so------> @demrle

He could have played with a badminton racquet if he so wished, his choice - his problem

I am saying that Djokovic didn't pull away in bo5 till RF 97 Came into play. Which is proven factually in 2011-12 numbers. And remember this is when they didn't meet in WB 2011.


If anybody says something @ForehandCross doesn't agree with -------> @ForehandCross foam at the mouth + 10 inch long blabber

LOL.Ok, "foam at the mouth"? Thats very familiar. you are another MTF import I see.

I can't put my finger on who. Let me ponder for a while.
Click to expand...
You wanna grasp at some straws to prove that Federer was as good (or better lmao) as Djokovic in 2011, be my guest, make people laugh, laughter is good for the health I've heard. Djokovic winning almost everything possible that year and Federer vulturing that RG final and almost the USO one when Djokovic was saturated is an important feather in Federer's cap? Good for him, I think you don't do Federer justice by insisting on that being one of his bigger achievements, but suit yourself.

Oh, I always thought that a player chooses to play with a racquet that gives him the best chance of winning. I guess I was wrong.

BTW, what's MTF?
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
demrle said:
You wanna grasp at some straws to prove that Federer was as good (or better lmao) as Djokovic in 2011, be my guest, make people laugh, laughter is good for the health I've heard. Djokovic winning almost everything possible that year and Federer vulturing that RG final and almost the USO one when Djokovic was saturated is an important feather in Federer's cap? Good for him, I think you don't do Federer justice by insisting on that being one of his bigger achievements, but suit yourself.

Oh, I always thought that a player chooses to play with a racquet that gives him the best chance of winning. I guess I was wrong.

BTW, what's MTF?
Click to expand...


Again apples to oranges.

Where am I saying 2011 Federer > Djokovic? where oh where? All of this started when you put out a lame excuse for 2011 RG loss.

How on earth did it become about who was better in that year? I gave examples of 11-12 slam matches to drive home the point that it was not a fluke.

And yet again calling one of the best matches of the decade a case of vulturing LOL, and giving an excuse for USO too.

Tell me have you joined to give Djokovic fans a bad name?
 
P

pj80

Legend
HetTheGreaterer said:
Peak to peak goes this way imo. I'll count 4 slams, WTF, 9 masters

Slams :-


AO rebound ace :- roger 60-40
AO plexi slow :- nole 60-40
AO plexi fast :- 50-50

RG :- roger 55-45

Wimbledon :- roger 70-30

Uso before 2012 :- roger 60-40
Uso after 2012 :- nole 55-45


WTF :-


WTF Shanghai :- roger 70-30
WTF London :- roger 60-40


Masters :-

Indian wells :- 50-50
Miami :- nole 65-35
Monte carlo :- fed 60-40 (nole has more titles but matchup there favours roger)
Madrid/hamburg :- fed 55-45
Rome :- nole 65-35
Canada :- nole 60-40
Cincinnati :- fed 70-30
Shanghai :- fed 60-40 (nole has more titles but matchup there favours roger)
Paris :- nole 60-40



My definition of peakerer and peakovic are

Peakerer from 2005.
Peakovic from 2011.

Or if we're selectively picking their peaks from tournaments, then I'll go something like this :-

AO :- 2007 roger vs 2011 nole

FO :- 2006 roger vs 2013 nole

Wim :- 2005 roger vs 2015 nole

Uso :- 2006 roger vs 2011 nole

Wtf :- 2003 roger vs 2015 nole
bias much
Click to expand...
 
Subway Tennis

Subway Tennis

Legend
NoleFam said:
I actually think their 2011 match was a harder hitting contest from the baseline, and more intense. A lot of people use that match to say since Federer had two match points, peak Federer would easily defeat peak Djokovic but tennis doesn't work that way. But yea peak to peak would be splitting hairs and they are close.
Click to expand...

Do you have a by-surface comparison where either player puts some distance between the other? Or are they still difficult to separate on that basis as well?
 
demrle

demrle

Professional
ForehandCross said:
Where am I saying 2011 Federer > Djokovic? where oh where? All of this started when you put out a lame excuse for 2011 RG loss.
How on earth did it become about who was better in that year? I gave examples of 11-12 slam matches to drive home the point that it was not a fluke.
Click to expand...
It didn't become anything, it was about who was better in that year from the start, you should pay better attention. Or are you derailing the discussion intentionally? I was answering to the following post initially:
K-H said:
...But then the weird part. When djokovic was at his peak, and federer was no longer at his best, Djokokic struggled against fed many times.
2011 Djokokic was one of the best Djokovic's and he lost at RG to federer. That was like legit one of the best djokovics and he couldn't do anything....
Click to expand...
So I said that RG SF was a bad example to draw conclusions from concerning the relative strength of Federer and peak Djokovic. You believe that match was representative of their forms, so be my guest. Just too bad you can't go back in time and put some money on Federer in that match, cause I'm sure you would have. Or maybe you did?
ForehandCross said:
And yet again calling one of the best matches of the decade a case of vulturing LOL, and giving an excuse for USO too.
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I never said it wasn't a good match, but that by no means mean that Djokovic couldn't and shouldn't have played better. Case of vulturing with the appropriate anticlimax in the final. Ride that hindsight, baby, I'm still putting my money on Djokovic in that match. Excuse for USO? Djokovic won, so I don't need any excuses for you. If you fail to realize the effect of playing in the final of basically every tournament he entered that year prior to USO had on Djokovic, then I can't help you. His dip in form from that USO onwards was as obvious as it was understandable.
ForehandCross said:
Tell me have you joined to give Djokovic fans a bad name?
Click to expand...
You saw right through me, I'm not even a Djokovic fan, just pretending so I could make him and his fans look bad.
 
Biotic

Biotic

Hall of Fame
Too bad Novak wasted most of 2009 and 2010. Post-2011 form should've come sooner.

Fed's form took a dip in 2010 and again in 2013, so all that's left to compare is 2007-2008 and 2011-2012.

I believe peak for peak guarantees many 5-setters. Tennis wins.
 
Towny

Towny

Hall of Fame
Australian Open - 8-6 titles for Novak, 4-1 H2H for Novak. Never really played when both at their best (Baby Novak 2007, Mono Fed 2008, Slightly Post prime Fed 2011, Post prime Fed 2016, Injured and very Post prime Fed 2020). However, Djokovic handled Federer very well when they played and also tended to handle peaking opponents better too (Nadal 2012, Wawrinka 2013) so I would say he has the higher peak.

French Open - 1-1 titles, 1-1 H2H. This is a tough one because and I think you could make arguments either way. I guess the closest thing to a peak for peak matchup would be their 2011 match, which Federer won. However, it was a close match and a small sample size overall. I would say Djokovic has handled Nadal slightly better overall but I think they are pretty much equal in terms of peak.

Wimbledon - 8-5 titles for Fed, 3-1 H2H for Novak. Federer has been historically better at this tournament but Djokovic has generally had the upper hand against him. However, I think the fact that Djokovic's first win against Federer came when Federer was nearly 33 is significant. I know age is apparently meaningless to some posters on TTW but even still, Federer had not made a slam final in 2 years. This wasn't Federer in the middle of his prime. And although Djokovic was going through somewhat of a slam slump, he was still doing much better then Federer. Plus it was a 5 set match. Then you have the 2019 match with both past their prime and really could've gone either way. Only in 2015 did Djokovic get a 4 set win. I'd be inclined to say Federer had the higher peak from everything we've seen, but if you are adamant that 2015 Federer was inexplicably his peakiest version, then you would disagree.

US Open - 5-3 titles for Fed, 3-3 H2H. The way I look at it, Fed wins the first 3 matches dropping only 1 set then has double match points in the next 2. Even in the third match, Federer played Djokovic closer than Djokovic played him in any of the matches Federer won. Plus Federer leads in the title count. I think Federer has the higher peak here.

YEC - 6-5 titles for Fed, 3-3 H2H. Could make an argument either way. Overall, they've played in Djokovic's better years rather than Federer's. Federer has more titles, Djokovic has the 4 in a row. Plus it's difficult to compare the TMC at Houston compared to the indoor tennis in London. I guess it's a toss-up. Maybe lean slightly towards Fed (Federer definitely more consistent overall) but there's very little in it.

Masters- 36-28 titles for Novak, 11-9 H2H for Novak- Overall Djokovic. I'm not going to break them down individually, but not only has he clearly been more consistent, he probably has the higher aggregate peak.

TL;DR:
AO - Djokovic
RG - Equal
Wim - Federer
USO - Federer
YEC - Equal/Slightly Federer
Masters - Djokovic

P.S. I accept my own biases as a Federer fan here. I may be giving Fed more of the benefit of the doubt than he deserves but I tried to be fair
 
D

D.Nalby12

G.O.A.T.
Technically 2007-08 Djokovic wasn't far off his prime level. In fact I'd take 2008 Djokovic over his 2013-14 versions. But mentally he was not there. Also Fedal were too strong to give away SLAMS.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Federer has done better at slams and Djokovic masters at peak level for both i think. I think feel the same way about Nadal and Djokovic as well.
 
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