Applying to College is Disheartening

jangotango said:

I've been accepted into UTA, but not my major/McCombs. I have my fingers crossed.

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What business major?
Traditionally, if you’re going to attend in the Fall of 2021, the acceptance into McCombs doesn’t happen until around April. I don’t know how Covid will affect this, but it may.
Also, unless things have changes drastically, you get accepted into the school and then after you pass a benchmark undergrad class (Business Calculus for Accounting & Finance Majors) then you can declare a major.
So don’t be too anxious now.

If I were asked for advice by a young man today, I would say go to a community college for at least two years for engineering prerequisites and then transfer to a state school to graduate with an engineering degree. If you have a scholarship, go to the best school you can manage with the scholarship amount. Otherwise don't bother going to college.

Here’s the truth. You’ll pretty much learn the same thing wherever you’ll go

MeatTornado said:

And there's me with my undergrad from Delaware who spends every waking moment on TTW for no reason.

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Damn, being a backup hit Joe Flacco hard

ChaelAZ said:

I'll just throw in some of my experience as a manager for various industries, from warehousing, to IT, to education now. I have hired directly, or been part of hiring committees for positions from entry level to college presidents. When it comes to education, my thought is that is demonstrates iniitative to complete a broad spectrum of work. It isn't the only way to do that and there is certainly comparable experience. I don't pay too much attention to where a degree is from as long as I can understand who the accrediting authority is and their competencies. Ivy league doesn't give much more creedo to applicants, but I know there are some other intrinsic requirements that can help through those, so might have weight for higher level positions. Having an applicable egree to the current position is probably the most critical. Just things I have seen with degrees and outcomes.

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A prestige degree (aka Ivy League) can certainly open some doors to you, doors that do not open for most.

The only problem with Harvard Alumi, is it usually takes them less than 10 seconds for them to bring Harvard up....every single time.

Rattler said:

A prestige degree (aka Ivy League) can certainly open some doors to you, doors that do not open for most.

The only problem with Harvard Alumi, is it usually takes them less than 10 seconds for them to bring Harvard up....every single time.

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Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. The Harvard grads I've met don't even like wearing college memorabilia, unless it's while attending the Harvard-Yale football game. In my world, no one even knows my wife is a double Harvard grad. I've never heard her mention it once.

boosto23 said:

Thundercloud subs

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I love 40 North. Would go during happy hour only when I visited my brother in Austin. Pizzas and especially the chicken sandwiches are KILLER.

RiverRat said:

The Harvard grads I've met don't even like wearing college memorabilia

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The people who are wearing Harvard apparel I've seen are either tiktok/social media "influencers" trying to look cool and "smart" or actual students because they're getting it for free every once in a while.

RiverRat said:

Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. The Harvard grads I've met don't even like wearing college memorabilia, unless it's while attending the Harvard-Yale football game. In my world, no one even knows my wife is a double Harvard grad. I've never heard her mention it once.

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Then she is definitely an outlier, empirically speaking.

jangotango said:

The people who are wearing Harvard apparel I've seen are either tiktok/social media "influencers" trying to look cool and "smart" or actual students because they're getting it for free every once in a while.

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Not so much wearing anything...just bringing it in casual conversation. Something along the lines of ‘Hello, nice to meet you, did you know I went to Harvard?,’ or ‘Hello again, nice to see you, did I tell you I went to Harvard?’

Rattler said:

Not so much wearing anything...just bringing it in casual conversation. Something along the lines of ‘Hello, nice to meet you, did you know I went to Harvard?,’ or ‘Hello again, nice to see you, did I tell you I went to Harvard?’

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I didn't go to an ivy, a little ivy yes, and you already know I'd be telling everyone where it was if I didn't go insane there and pretty much get disowned by them.

Rattler said:

Not so much wearing anything...just bringing it in casual conversation. Something along the lines of ‘Hello, nice to meet you, did you know I went to Harvard?,’ or ‘Hello again, nice to see you, did I tell you I went to Harvard?’

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Rattler said:

Then she is definitely an outlier, empirically speaking.

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I would have left this alone but you couldn't. My "empirical" (aka, anecdotal) study shows that Texans can't help but mention they're Texans, and not Americans, in less than 10 seconds (see your avatar). Does that mean you are all secessionists, as your current state government implies, or that you're not patriots because your militia groups say they are waiting for the word from Trump to start killing liberals? It's another ugly stereotype that I wouldn't perpetuate, only use as
hyperbole to demonstrate the ridiculousness of your now, repeated, and unfounded statements. There are plenty of schools whose alumni trumpet their presence. To single out Harvard as an extreme example of this is nonsense.

Always amused me watching "Iron Chef America" that one of the judges, Jeffrey Steingarten, who writes a food column for Vogue, was always introduced on the show as "Harvard educated Jeffrey Steingarten" despite being about 70 years old when these episodes were produced. (He graduated Harvard College and Harvard Law, then apparently thought better of it). Made me think that if it's been close to half a century since school and you still feel the need to be introduced that way, you can't feel all that great about what you've been doing since then.

jangotango said:

This is a bit of a rant thread I guess.

I'm a senior in high school finishing up my college applications. Looking to study business/finance/economics after a lifetime of thinking I'd be doing medicine and pharmacy. Hoping to get an ROTC (any branch) scholarship, and even if I don't land one, I'll most likely do it anyways. Applied Early Decision to UPenn Wharton. Easily denied. So far I've only been auto-admitted to UT Austin, but still await confirmation on McCombs and the honors program. Now I'm applying to Cornell, Brown, UVA, NYU, Duke, UChicago, USC, and a few others. Basically the best target schools where ROTC is.

Looking at example essays and wastefully watching the "OMG Reading my *elite university* accepted essays" YouTube videos, I really don't feel cut out for this. These Cornell, UPenn, etc. kids have really molded their lives around what university and career they're in. National FBLA and DECA champs, athletic stars, stupid-rich international kids, the list goes on. A lot of these students deserve a spot where they are going. Some of them have the most remarkable, emotional, determined stories. And when some of the universities I look at have undergrad program class sizes of around 150 people, it's really hard to believe I have a chance.

I play tennis an almost unhealthy amount. I'm a racquet stringer, sometimes. Where I live in Texas the tennis community is really small, and my little "side business" really hasn't taken off the ground despite my efforts. At my relatively unknown public high school, I'm only top five, and even that could change. I have enough credits at the local community college to get an associates degree focusing in... Human Biology. Pretty useless when I'm now a business student. I was really an active member in only one organization in school, HOSA, which is a health science org.

I'm spending my Christmas trying to write these application essays. My family's tree doesn't even have any ornaments on it.

I think the best times of this year has been whenever I'm on the tennis court, my first time at my ROTC detachments Field Training Exercise, and whenever I'm on Talk Tennis.

Thanks for reading. Happy Holidays.

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I'm a UT Austin alum (went there for both undergrad and grad school). It's a great school and depending on your major (business or engineering especially) one of the best in the world. I understand the frustration/disappointment of not getting accepted to your top choice, but as others have pointed out smart and successful people come from anywhere. In my field, most people have graduate degrees and where people attend graduate school has a much bigger impact than undergrad (and even then there are plenty of outliers).

sureshs said:

If it is you and him in the business, how is it a one man business? Unless you are a woman, of course.

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??? Re-read my post! I employ him!

Harry_Wild said:

??? Re-read my post! I employ him!

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you employ a self employed person?

yossarian said:

you employ a self employed person?

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Yes, I am one of his customers! Are you drunk or on drugs?

Harry_Wild said:

Yes, I am one of his customers! Are you drunk or on drugs?

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when I read your comments it certainly feels like it

yossarian said:

when I read your comments it certainly feels like it

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I never even heard of you until now, what up your attack on me?

ollinger said:

I suspect the part about leaving the state and continuing to be beholding would never be found constitutional given the federal government being charged to regulate whatever promotes or interferes with interstate commerce.

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I suspect you are right. At least I hope you are right. At a company in Illinois I worked for I can recall someone in accounting complaining about California and their aggressive tax collecting policies. The company just had a sale man working in the bear state, but California tax authorities was being aggressive in wanting to creatively tax us as much as they felt possible. When I read the above article, the proposed law seemed in line with their past tax collecting money wanting efforts.

RiverRat said:

I would have left this alone but you couldn't. My "empirical" (aka, anecdotal) study shows that Texans can't help but mention they're Texans, and not Americans, in less than 10 seconds (see your avatar). Does that mean you are all secessionists, as your current state government implies, or that you're not patriots because your militia groups say they are waiting for the word from Trump to start killing liberals? It's another ugly stereotype that I wouldn't perpetuate, only use as
hyperbole to demonstrate the ridiculousness of your now, repeated, and unfounded statements. There are plenty of schools whose alumni trumpet their presence. To single out Harvard as an extreme example of this is nonsense.

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Wow, you took it personal, along with a few leaps there. Hahaha

You really should’ve just left it alone, instead shifting the blame on me for your lack of self-control.

The bourgeoisie's obsession with (formal) education and status never fails to fascinate me. Can't think of many other O&E topics (besides the usual partisan nonsense) that would garner this many responses on an Xmas weekend.

Anyhoo:

golden chicken said:

I looked at it from the reverse. I picked a career goal, then chose the school and major that I thought would best lead me to the career goal without leaving me upside down for the next 30 years. A "career in business" is a really vague goal if you are hoping to get into one of these major private schools. What's tuition like, $50k a year now? Can you be reasonably guaranteed the ability to make $75k/year out of the gate, or are you going to have $200k in debt and end up a manager at Burger King for $40k/year and buried by $1000/month student loan payment?

I don't think this is stressed enough to kids looking to make these life-defining decisions, especially now, when the price of tuition is literally double what it was when I went, but your entry level jobs are still paying like $13/hour.

To take on hundreds of thousands in debt without building a valuable skill set along the way that matches or exceeds the debt incurred is the dilemma of so many of my peers.

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LOL, our college tuition may be soaring at an unsustainable rate but let's go easy on the hyperbole. Most undergrads receive assistance of some kind, be it through grants, scholarships, interest-free loans, etc., which is why the average total student debt among recent college graduates stands barely over $30k.

That's still too high, but nowhere near as bad as the forgive-all-student-debt crowd would have you think. I've come around to the idea that limited relief may be ideal/necessary, especially with the pandemic raging for the foreseeable future, but total, complete elimination when it's not accompanied by any feasible plan to fundamentally revamp the system and even its advocates admit the biggest beneficiaries will be upper-middle-class families? F*ck that. If you really wanna help struggling college graduates fight for some form of UBI instead.

Also, as an introvert, my experience being able to say I went to USC didn't really open any extra doors for me because I didn't network with my peers. My wife went to state school and has had just as much professional prestige attached to her bachelor's degree as I have. Universities will try to sell you that going to USC is worth more than UMass, but by itself it is not. Going to USC puts you in touch with more people who are more likely to succeed, perhaps, if you are willing and able to take advantage of that.

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Now this can't be emphasized enough. Like you I've always been something of a hermit and can count on one hand the number of buds from college I still keep in touch with (though only one in the last year or so), and all but one of 'em I met in my very first semester. Graduating from an Ivy would've done next to zilch for someone like me who doesn't care to partake in the all-but-obligatory game of social back-scratching. You really need to ask yourself if you're cut out for that and the cutthroat competition before you choose any elite school with $50k+ tuition (unless, of course, you can secure a free ride).

boosto23 said:

Another McCombs grad chiming in here: if McCombs is the worst option of what you have, then you're very well off. What is posted on the internet is often not a good lens by which we are to view reality through. From fitness, to music, to raising children, and anything in between, what's often presented is doctored, and nuance is rarely addressed. I'd advise you to not compare yourself to what's presented on the internet in an unhealthy way.

It's frustrating to hear our communities around us place so much of our identity on what school we went to, especially now that I'm around 10 years out of college. Yes, Ivy schools provide connections and open doors that might not be available to others from the get-go, however from my experience, your integrity and hard work will be much more valuable and reliable than anything else out there. Cushy, high-rise apartments with prestigious work after graduating from an Ivy is one way to measure success. It's not the only way.

Best of luck out there, and if you do go to Austin, Thundercloud subs is a very underrated place for good food.

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Yes, I still remember one of my college interviews where this non-pretentious Ivy alumnus (yes there are some of those) told me college kids use the same textbooks everywhere and what determines academic success at any school is not intelligence but maturity. Of course he failed to mention in his well-meaning lecture on meritocracy that what really determines success outside the classroom, at least in the public eye, is having the right set of friends (very loosely speaking) in respectable circles where an Ivy degree can indeed come in handy, but like you said that's only if you define success in such narrow terms.

None of these seemingly obvious points will make much sense to the typical college applicant who finds peer pressure all but irresistible, but you could say that's the real benefit of a formal postsecondary education which presumably allows the student to grow for about four years without having to worry about his bank account or an a-hole boss breathing down his neck. I still say it's too big a price to pay, but obviously I'm in a small minority.

Soul said:

I suspect you are right. At least I hope you are right. At a company in Illinois I worked for I can recall someone in accounting complaining about California and their aggressive tax collecting policies. The company just had a sale man working in the bear state, but California tax authorities was being aggressive in wanting to creatively tax us as much as they felt possible. When I read the above article, the proposed law seemed in line with their past tax collecting money wanting efforts.

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California is Exhibit A of why you don't want a one-party monopoly even when the other party is almost irredeemable trash. Its housing situation is flat-out unsustainable, even more so than the nationwide one with student loans, and add to that its income tax rate of 12.3-13.3% (the highest in the US, surprise, surprise) and you've got the unenviable distinction of failure to accommodate the largest homeless population in the country.

Rattler said:

Then she is definitely an outlier, empirically speaking.

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Please add my wife to the list of Harvard grads (MA) who never mention it. When asked what college(s) she attended, she will say "I got my master's from a college in Boston." She really avoids any mention of Harvard, not because she disliked the school but to avoid pretense, which is common. She's not an "outlier" as you say. ("Empirically speaking"? Please cite your evidence, personal experience and anecdotes excluded).

NonP said:

LOL, our college tuition may be soaring at an unsustainable rate but let's go easy on the hyperbole. Most undergrads receive assistance of some kind, be it through grants, scholarships, interest-free loans, etc., which is why the average total student debt among recent college graduates stands barely over $30k.

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30K of student loan is still a lot of money, especially for someone who just graduated. For people of color and minorities, it is much higher than that, more like 60K+

NonP said:

Now this can't be emphasized enough. Like you I've always been something of a hermit and can count on one hand the number of buds from college I still keep in touch with (though only one in the last year or so), and all but one of 'em I met in my very first semester. Graduating from an Ivy would've done next to zilch for someone like me who doesn't care to partake in the all-but-obligatory game of social back-scratching. You really need to ask yourself if you're cut out for that and the cutthroat competition before you choose any elite school with $50k+ tuition (unless, of course, you can secure a free ride)..

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Friends that can help you are those you become close with during your high school years. I am still friends with my HS friends 30 years after high school graduation. I hang out with them at least twice a month, playing golf, tennis, social. I got jjobs, financial advice, and many things from my high school circle of friends. I went to Ohio State and had lot of friends there but I stopped talking to them after graduation and got no help from any of them. A couple of folks at my current and previous work places attended Andover and Exeter Academy said the exact same thing. Two years ago, the company hired one person last year as Senior Vice President in charge of Professional Services, and paid him almost 1M/year. This dude has no qualification to be in charge of Professional Services; however, he got hired because he attended Sidwell Friends school (Obama & Clinton kids attended) and the Executive Vice President (EVP) also attended that school, and that they were soccer teammates at Sidwell.

NonP said:

Yes, I still remember one of my college interviews where this non-pretentious Ivy alumnus (yes there are some of those) told me college kids use the same textbooks everywhere and what determines academic success at any school is not intelligence but maturity. Of course he failed to mention in his well-meaning lecture on meritocracy that what really determines success outside the classroom, at least in the public eye, is having the right set of friends (very loosely speaking) in respectable circles where an Ivy degree can indeed come in handy, but like you said that's only if you define success in such narrow terms.

None of these seemingly obvious points will make much sense to the typical college applicant who finds peer pressure all but irresistible, but you could say that's the real benefit of a formal postsecondary education which presumably allows the student to grow for about four years without having to worry about his bank account or an a-hole boss breathing down his neck. I still say it's too big a price to pay, but obviously I'm in a small minority.

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I've learned in the past few years that you will find lot of opportunities not on the tennis court but on the golf course. You will meet so many successful people on any given day. They are much older, wiser, and can give you so many great advice on life, finance, relationship, etc... The thing about golf is that they will pair you with 3 other people at your tees time and people talk while walking after hitting the ball. My son played golf almost 7 days a week during covid-19 pandemic and met so many wonderful people. One of the people he met while playing golf happened to be a very wealthy alum at the private school where my son recently graduated and he offered my son an internship at his financial consulting company. My daughter met a lady on the golf course who is running a art gallery and she offered to have my daughter art displayed there at no cost. Just prior to the covid-19 pandemic, I myself met a gentleman on the golf course while playing. He advised me to buy both Amazon and Tesla stock. I took his advice and now I am extremely happy with that. You don't need to attend Universities to be financial successful. Just have a degree from a state school and play golf well, that's all you need.

@Soul: The article that you sighted "
A California Plan to Chase Away the Rich, Then Keep Stalking Them A proposed wealth tax would apply for a decade to anyone who spends 60 days in the state in a single year." It is written by a right wing professor Hank Adler from Chapman University. I don't think anyone will take that seriously.

bobleenov1963 said:

You don't need to attend Universities to be financial successful. Just have a degree from a state school and play golf well, that's all you need.

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State schools include Universities.

bobleenov1963 said:

I've learned in the past few years that you will find lot of opportunities not on the tennis court but on the golf course. You will meet so many successful people on any given day.

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No need to change sports because similar connections are made through tennis. Depending upon where you play tennis and where you play golf you are just as likely to meet accomplished older people on the tennis court. Growing up I played tennis with captains of industry, government, politics, academia, and sport. Yes, my first adult mixed-doubles partner is the owner of the Detroit Lions. If you're a junior who is willing to play with everyone from the age of 7 to 18, you will make your way through the entire club membership and learn as much about the world as about tennis.

RiverRat said:

No need to change sports because similar connections are made through tennis. Depending upon where you play tennis and where you play golf you are just as likely to meet accomplished older people on the tennis court. Growing up I played tennis with captains of industry, government, politics, academia, and sport. Yes, my first adult mixed-doubles partner is the owner of the Detroit Lions. If you're a junior who is willing to play with everyone from the age of 7 to 18, you will make your way through the entire club membership and learn as much about the world as about tennis.

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The problem with tennis is that people with connections in government, private industries, finance, are usually belong to an expensive country club, and if you're not part of it, it is hard to get into one. Those people don't usually hang out at public tennis courts. How do I know this? I live in an expensive zip codes in both MD and VA and while there are so many public tennis courts in these two areas, rich people don't hang out at public tennis courts. Those people usually play tennis or golf at either Congressional Country Club, Riverbend, or Chevy Chase.

With golf, it is much different. People, especially older people, like to play at different golf courses, both public and privates, even if they belong to one of these expensive country clubs. The reason is that no golf course is exactly the same. Therefore, as a golfer, even if you coming from a middle class family, you can play at public golf courses, and there are plenty of public golf courses in both Virginia and Maryland, and you have a much higher chance to meet someone who are very successful in their respective industries. The funny thing that you see in golf that you will not see in tennis is that there are 18 holes to play and it usually takes about 3 1/2 hours to complete a round of golf. People walk, or ride carts, in between hitting balls, and they talk. That's where relationship is formed. Not to say that it can not be done with tennis but it is harder. The other thing about golf is that if you're good, don't have to be great, those people will want to play with you again and again. They even invite you to their country club to play with them.

One thing I tell my children is to never turn down any older people who want to play golf with them when they are on the golf course. At tees time, there is a group of 4 random people, some are good golfers but most of them are bad golfers but you're there to improve golf game and also improve your networking skill.

Speaking of golf, both my son and daughter spend two hours on the driving range working on their technique and 1 1/2 hours on the golf course if they play 9 holes or 3 hours if they play 18 holes.

sureshs said:

State schools include Universities.

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In the state of Virginia, there is a program that is called Guaranteed Admission Program (GAP). This program will allow student who achieve 3.5 GPA or higher from a Community College to transfer to any of Virginia 4-years Universities, like UVA, VT, James Madison, etc... This is the best way to save money, bar none. When a student graduates, he/she will have a degree from University of Virginia, Virginia Tech or James Madison.

sovertennis said:

Please add my wife to the list of Harvard grads (MA) who never mention it. When asked what college(s) she attended, she will say "I got my master's from a college in Boston." She really avoids any mention of Harvard, not because she disliked the school but to avoid pretense, which is common. She's not an "outlier" as you say. ("Empirically speaking"? Please cite your evidence, personal experience and anecdotes excluded).

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Definition of empirically

: in an empirical manner : with a basis in or reliance on information obtained through observation, experiment, or experience

bobleenov1963 said:

In the state of Virginia, there is a program that is called Guaranteed Admission Program (GAP). This program will allow student who achieve 3.5 GPA or higher from a Community College to transfer to any of Virginia 4-years Universities, like UVA, VT, James Madison, etc... This is the best way to save money, bar none. When a student graduates, he/she will have a degree from University of Virginia, Virginia Tech or James Madison.

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Texas has something similar but more robust. IIRC, if you graduate in the top 10% of your high school class you are admitted to any of the public universities. Perhaps the OP is in on that basis. BTW, I live in NOVA. My son has similar interests to your's. He has spent the last two years at the Interlochen Academy. I would have loved for him to have applied to Berklee where his great uncle was a professor. Instead, he's going to Northwestern, planning on being a doctor, but music will always be a part of his life.

bobleenov1963 said:

The problem with tennis is that people with connections in government, private industries, finance, are usually belong to an expensive country club, and if you're not part of it, it is hard to get into one. Those people don't usually hang out at public tennis courts. How do I know this? I live in an expensive zip codes in both MD and VA and while there are so many public tennis courts in these two areas, rich people don't hang out at public tennis courts. Those people usually play tennis or golf at either Congressional Country Club, Riverbend, or Chevy Chase.

With golf, it is much different. People, especially older people, like to play at different golf courses, both public and privates, even if they belong to one of these expensive country clubs. The reason is that no golf course is exactly the same. Therefore, as a golfer, even if you coming from a middle class family, you can play at public golf courses, and there are plenty of public golf courses in both Virginia and Maryland, and you have a much higher chance to meet someone who are very successful in their respective industries. The funny thing that you see in golf that you will not see in tennis is that there are 18 holes to play and it usually takes about 3 1/2 hours to complete a round of golf. People walk, or ride carts, in between hitting balls, and they talk. That's where relationship is formed. Not to say that it can not be done with tennis but it is harder. The other thing about golf is that if you're good, don't have to be great, those people will want to play with you again and again. They even invite you to their country club to play with them.

One thing I tell my children is to never turn down any older people who want to play golf with them when they are on the golf course. At tees time, there is a group of 4 random people, some are good golfers but most of them are bad golfers but you're there to improve golf game and also improve your networking skill.

Speaking of golf, both my son and daughter spend two hours on the driving range working on their technique and 1 1/2 hours on the golf course if they play 9 holes or 3 hours if they play 18 holes.

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BTW, I did not belong to an exclusive country club. I grew up in Ann Arbor, a place my parents chose because it was egalitarian--a place where the children of CEOs of fortune 500 companies went to public school, not private. I just played tennis where the best tennis players played and others wanted to play too. Captains of industry do not play on public tennis courts nor do they play public golf courses, unless the best pro is there. That's how I met all of these people in my life. I'm glad your children are having great experiences with golf, but I assure you tennis can provide an equally rich network.

RiverRat said:

Texas has something similar but more robust. IIRC, if you graduate in the top 10% of your high school class you are admitted to any of the public universities. Perhaps the OP is in on that basis. BTW, I live in NOVA. My son has similar interests to your's. He has spent the last two years at the Interlochen Academy. I would have loved for him to have applied to Berklee where his great uncle was a professor. Instead, he's going to Northwestern, planning on being a doctor, but music will always be a part of his life.

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Great school. I got in for grad school but it was too expensive

Too expensive for me too. I haven't found a way to say no to my children though. In the end, the school can only bleed us for so much.

RiverRat said:

Texas has something similar but more robust. IIRC, if you graduate in the top 10% of your high school class you are admitted to any of the public universities. Perhaps the OP is in on that basis. BTW, I live in NOVA. My son has similar interests to your's. He has spent the last two years at the Interlochen Academy. I would have loved for him to have applied to Berklee where his great uncle was a professor. Instead, he's going to Northwestern, planning on being a doctor, but music will always be a part of his life.

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If you live in NOVA, why would you want to send your kid to Northwestern? 34K/year @UVA versus 76K+/year at NorthWestern (not excluding flying back and forth between Evanston and NOVA). That will save you at least 42K+/year, and over 168K+ over four years). You can hand your kid a 168K check after he graduates from college, and great head start in life.

Since you mentioned that your son is planning on being a doctor, Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU) is an excellent school and it even has the BS/MD program for a cost less than 28K/year. I don't understand why anyone would want to send their kids to an very expensive school. I have a lot of time to think during covid-19 and I told my son that even though I can afford to send him to Berklee school of music, he should think again about going there because it is supper expensive and given my household income, he will not get any financial aid. I told him he should apply again to UVA, VT, JMU and study his music major there. Virginia has so many good schools, there is no need to go anywhere else. I told him I will hand a 160K+ check after he graduates from a state college and he can use it to travel or go to graduate school.

You live in NOVA, pay tax there. Therefore, your son should take advantage of great universities in the state of Virginia.

RiverRat said:

BTW, I did not belong to an exclusive country club. I grew up in Ann Arbor, a place my parents chose because it was egalitarian--a place where the children of CEOs of fortune 500 companies went to public school, not private.

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That might happen in Ann Arbor MI or Columbus Ohio but certainly not here in the Northern Virginia. Just about anyone with money here send their kids to private schools, even when public schools in NOVA is one of the best in the country.

RiverRat said:

I just played tennis where the best tennis players played and others wanted to play too. Captains of industry do not play on public tennis courts nor do they play public golf courses, unless the best pro is there. That's how I met all of these people in my life. I'm glad your children are having great experiences with golf, but I assure you tennis can provide an equally rich network.

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Again, in Northern Virginia and Potomac Maryland, you will see CEOs, CIOs, CFOs playing in public golf courses in additional to Riverbend, Congressional CC, Chevy Chase, Trump International. The reason is that golf is much different than tennis, no golf course is the same, and golf people like playing at different golf course. Public golf courses in both Virginia and Maryland are just as good as private golf courses, it is just that they don't have as much amenities like private golf courses; However, if you go further out to Loundon County, there is a beautiful Raspberry falls golf course that is open to the public. You will find so many "decision makers" on that course at any given time.

How many kids with 11+UTR that are willing to hit with older people of 5 or 6 UTR? They rarely happen. In golf, I have seen very golfers pair with golf "hackers". In tennis It is much harder to have a conversation when both people are playing. It is much easier to do that in golf because a majority of the time in golf, you spend time riding the cart or walking. That's where people talk and strike up relationships.

Yes, both tennis and golf provide rich network; however, golf is so much better at doing that tennis, IMHO.

Raspberry Falls is hardly a "public" course. It's a "user-fee" course, and expensive. If that's your benchmark then one can afford a private tennis club for the same money. I know there are accomplished people on the public tennis courts where I live, decision-makers who don't have to shell out $100 to play on a Saturday afternoon, partners at Jones Day, chiefs of staff, World Bank vice-presidents, Washington Post journalists, and the list goes on. I don't know why you have to insist that golf is a better sport for making connections, but I'm glad you think so. Leaves more tennis courts open for me.

bobleenov1963 said:

If you live in NOVA, why would you want to send your kid to Northwestern? 34K/year @UVA versus 76K+/year at NorthWestern (not excluding flying back and forth between Evanston and NOVA). That will save you at least 42K+/year, and over 168K+ over four years). You can hand your kid a 168K check after he graduates from college, and great head start in life.

Since you mentioned that your son is planning on being a doctor, Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU) is an excellent school and it even has the BS/MD program for a cost less than 28K/year. I don't understand why anyone would want to send their kids to an very expensive school. I have a lot of time to think during covid-19 and I told my son that even though I can afford to send him to Berklee school of music, he should think again about going there because it is supper expensive and given my household income, he will not get any financial aid. I told him he should apply again to UVA, VT, JMU and study his music major there. Virginia has so many good schools, there is no need to go anywhere else. I told him I will hand a 160K+ check after he graduates from a state college and he can use it to travel or go to graduate school.

You live in NOVA, pay tax there. Therefore, your son should take advantage of great universities in the state of Virginia.

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Parent your kids the way you want and I'll parent mine. We have very different views on the value of education and the arts.

bobleenov1963 said:

30K of student loan is still a lot of money, especially for someone who just graduated. For people of color and minorities, it is much higher than that, more like 60K+

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I said in the very next sentence that $30k is still too high a burden for college grads, so I'm not sure why you felt the urge to share this with me.

Friends that can help you are those you become close with during your high school years. I am still friends with my HS friends 30 years after high school graduation. I hang out with them at least twice a month, playing golf, tennis, social. I got jjobs, financial advice, and many things from my high school circle of friends. I went to Ohio State and had lot of friends there but I stopped talking to them after graduation and got no help from any of them. A couple of folks at my current and previous work places attended Andover and Exeter Academy said the exact same thing. Two years ago, the company hired one person last year as Senior Vice President in charge of Professional Services, and paid him almost 1M/year. This dude has no qualification to be in charge of Professional Services; however, he got hired because he attended Sidwell Friends school (Obama & Clinton kids attended) and the Executive Vice President (EVP) also attended that school, and that they were soccer teammates at Sidwell.

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You seem to have this unfortunate tendency to extrapolate universal truths from your own limited experience. I can say no buds from high school remain in my life and I prefer to keep it that way. Unless you think your experience is more valid than mine you should preach this gospel of yours to someone else.

I've learned in the past few years that you will find lot of opportunities not on the tennis court but on the golf course. You will meet so many successful people on any given day. They are much older, wiser, and can give you so many great advice on life, finance, relationship, etc... The thing about golf is that they will pair you with 3 other people at your tees time and people talk while walking after hitting the ball. My son played golf almost 7 days a week during covid-19 pandemic and met so many wonderful people. One of the people he met while playing golf happened to be a very wealthy alum at the private school where my son recently graduated and he offered my son an internship at his financial consulting company. My daughter met a lady on the golf course who is running a art gallery and she offered to have my daughter art displayed there at no cost. Just prior to the covid-19 pandemic, I myself met a gentleman on the golf course while playing. He advised me to buy both Amazon and Tesla stock. I took his advice and now I am extremely happy with that. You don't need to attend Universities to be financial successful. Just have a degree from a state school and play golf well, that's all you need.

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Same here. This advice may be sound for your status-conscious upper-middle-class circles but it'd do nada for a family living in the projects or rural Appalachia, or for weirdos like me who don't care to mingle with such crowds.

Also the pursuit of upward mobility by hobnobbing with the rich and famous is not a value I'd instill in my kids (though I have none), which you would've noticed if you cared to pay attention to what I had to say. But at least you're implicitly undermining your bootstrap philosophy and acknowledging that meritocracy ain't what it's cracked up to be. I can appreciate that, though I'm not sure you do.

NonP said:

I said in the very next sentence that $30k is still too high a burden for college grads, so I'm not sure why you felt the urge to share this with me.



You seem to have this unfortunate tendency to extrapolate universal truths from your own limited experience. I can say no buds from high school remain in my life and I prefer to keep it that way. Unless you think your experience is more valid than mine you should preach this gospel of yours to someone else.



Same here. This advice may be sound for your status-conscious upper-middle-class circles but it'd do nada for a family living in the projects or rural Appalachia, or for weirdos like me who don't care to mingle with such crowds.

Also the pursuit of upward mobility by hobnobbing with the rich and famous is not a value I'd instill in my kids (though I have none), which you would've noticed if you cared to pay attention to what I had to say. But at least you're implicitly undermining your bootstrap philosophy and acknowledging that meritocracy ain't what it's cracked up to be. I can appreciate that, though I'm not sure you do.

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That guy wasn't being disrespectful to you... read what he wrote and then read how you replied to him.

FRV4 said:

That guy wasn't being disrespectful to you... read what he wrote and then read how you replied to him.

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LOL, I wasn't exactly being disrespectful either. That's just how I talk except in a business setting (and often not even that). Y'all should know by now I'm not one to mince words.

Plus he and I had something of a row on a related topic earlier this year. He should know where I stand on this, though apparently he didn't.

NonP said:

LOL, I wasn't exactly being disrespectful either. That's just how I talk except in a business setting (and often not even that). Y'all should know by now I'm not one to mince words.

Plus he and I had something of a row on a related topic earlier this year. He should know where I stand on this, though apparently he didn't.

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Fair enough, to each their own.

RiverRat said:

Raspberry Falls is hardly a "public" course. It's a "user-fee" course, and expensive. If that's your benchmark than one can afford a private tennis club for the same money.

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I find that wealthy people either don't realize how wealthy they are, or intentionally pretend they aren't, I can't say. I am by no reasonable metric poor, but some of the stuff I've read here is out insanely of touch with the plebeian lifestyle:

• Buying a house in central America is pretty easy and for 300k you get something real nice
• Paying 100k per year for a child trying to make it pro for a few years
• Find a "cheap" country club to play golf

I'll have to look for it (and admittedly probably won't) but I listened to a podcast that talked about gifted kids from poor areas getting full scholarships in fancy universities, and even though they were immensely talented, the cultural gap was too great for many of them to even finish their degrees.

Pmasterfunk said:

I find that wealthy people either don't realize how wealthy they are, or intentionally pretend they aren't, I can't say. I am by no reasonable metric poor, but some of the stuff I've read here is out insanely of touch with the plebeian lifestyle:

• Buying a house in central America is pretty easy and for 300k you get something real nice
• Paying 100k per year for a child trying to make it pro for a few years
• Find a "cheap" country club to play golf

I'll have to look for it (and admittedly probably won't) but I listened to a podcast that talked about gifted kids from poor areas getting full scholarships in fancy universities, and even though they were immensely talented, the cultural gap was too great for many of them to even finish their degrees.

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This is basically what happened with me. Classes were fine but the culture of academia (like working in a lab or what not) was too much for me. They expect you to be real confident and outgoing, which I just wasn’t. They eventually started to think I was dumb or not interested, when really I just couldn’t break out of my shell. No doubt in my mind I became a worse person going to the school that I did.

bobleenov1963 said:

In the state of Virginia, there is a program that is called Guaranteed Admission Program (GAP). This program will allow student who achieve 3.5 GPA or higher from a Community College to transfer to any of Virginia 4-years Universities, like UVA, VT, James Madison, etc... This is the best way to save money, bar none. When a student graduates, he/she will have a degree from University of Virginia, Virginia Tech or James Madison.

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Same in CA and several other states.

It does seem to be the best way to save money, but there is a caveat. The "transfer" students sometimes end up spending a year more than the nominal 2 years.

Not to mention that there is a lot of pressure in the 2 years of community college to achieve that GPA on those students who are counting on transfering.

Look kid, don't stress yourself out. I studied law and political science in hopes of going to law school and becoming a lawyer but I never ended up taking that route, and I'm enjoying my life quite a lot nowadays; hoping to enter entrepreneurship in 2021 after a couple years of planning. In fact, I know many people who's careers had nothing to do with what they studied in their undergrad.

Go for something you like, enjoy your youth years (I know it's tough right now for a variety of uncontrollable reasons), and be open to different experiences. Btw, I'm only 30 so to most people on this forum, I'm still a youth to them just like OP, but based on my own experiences that's the advice I'd give to college aged students.

FRV4 said:

This is basically what happened with me. Classes were fine but the culture of academia (like working in a lab or what not) was too much for me. They expect you to be real confident and outgoing, which I just wasn’t. They eventually started to think I was dumb or not interested, when really I just couldn’t break out of my shell. No doubt in my mind I became a worse person going to the school that I did.

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Unfortunately, your story is all too common. It's important for universities to provide mentors and have advisors who are more than just a rubber stamp on registration day. Some do a better job than others and specific cultures suit different sorts of students. As an older guy I have learned to recognize cultures where I feel comfortable and am less likely to attribute my discomfort to my own shortcomings. But students aren't at that stage in their lives, and institutions can really harm those who they are supposed to be helping. It seems like you are back on your feet and pursuing an interest with this community and sharing your experiences, which you make valuable.

When I was 18 I went to the U.S. Air Force Academy for what I jokingly refer to as 9 fun-filled months. It wasn't what I thought it would be and tortured me at a vulnerable time in my life. Now, I can log it as a unique experience without passing any judgment on myself or the academy. That kind of disappointment and disillusionment is just not something that typical 18 year-olds, like I was, are equipped to put into perspective. Nothing like another 40 years to actually learn from the experience.

RiverRat said:

Unfortunately, your story is all too common. It's important for universities to provide mentors and have advisors who are more than just a rubber stamp on registration day. Some do a better job than others and specific cultures suit different sorts of students. As an older guy I have learned to recognize cultures where I feel comfortable and am less likely to attribute my discomfort to my own shortcomings. But students aren't at that stage in their lives and institutions can really harm those who they are supposed to be helping. It seems like you are back on your feet and pursuing an interest with this community and sharing your experiences, which you make valuable.

When I was 18 I went to the U.S. Air Force Academy for what I jokingly refer to as 9 fun-filled months. It wasn't what I thought it would be and tortured me at a vulnerable time in my life. Now, I can log it as a unique experience without passing any judgment on myself or the academy. That kind of disappointment and disillusionment is just not something that typical 18 year-olds, like I was, are equipped to put into perspective. Nothing like another 40 years to actually learn from the experience.

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Honestly, I think part of it was just me. I have this mentality of never having confidence until I'm close to top dog. Well at a good school, it became basically impossible for me to be top in anything besides the classroom, which is an almost useless skill. The school I went to sucks in retrospect, but I can't blame them for making me unemployable, that's on me.

FRV4 said:

Honestly, I think part of it was just me. I have this mentality of never having confidence until I'm close to top dog. Well at a good school, it became basically impossible for me to be top in anything besides the classroom, which is an almost useless skill. The school I went to sucks in retrospect, but I can't blame them for making me unemployable, that's on me.

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It all rolls into who we become. Just know there are a lot of "its" in life, but none of them are us. You are already making sense of this "it" in your life. You are already separating "it" from who you are, so you're already way more mature than I, when I was young.

sureshs said:

Same in CA and several other states.

It does seem to be the best way to save money, but there is a caveat. The "transfer" students sometimes end up spending a year more than the nominal 2 years.

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I don't think that is accurate. If you plan ahead and stick to the game plan, you can get an AA degree at the community and then transfer to a 4 years college, you can finish that in 4 years. Every majors has all the courses spell out in the requirements. It is not rocket science.

sureshs said:

Not to mention that there is a lot of pressure in the 2 years of community college to achieve that GPA on those students who are counting on transfering

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If you can not get at least 3.5GPA at a community college, maybe college is not for you. Community college is just as easy as high school. Almost 60% of people at community college are either working full time or part time. If you're a full time student at a community college and your goal is to transfer to either UCLA (in CA) or UVA (in VA), and that you treat community more than a full time job, you will be in the top 1% of the student at your community college. That will allow you to transfer to either UCLA or UVA.

Students who are attending community college and working either full time or part time, they can not compete with you. They have to spend time working while you're using that time to study. That's the fact.

Curious if you applied to Rice ? Great school, much more affordable that some of the Ivy's and you could stay in state. By the way if you end up at UT, they have a great club team and there is a lot of tennis locally.

Tennis might be considered nerdy in high school, but once you reach college, the nice thing is that it is easy to meet a large number of athletic and feminine women whether you play club or intramural tennis at college. This is true after college also if you join a good tennis club - much better for dating athletic women than other sports like baseball, football, hockey etc. where high school likely marks the end of your athletic exploits unless you are good enough to be on a full-ride athletic scholarship.