Applying to College is Disheartening

[bobleenov1963]

You ignored my point. He was always projected as a top 10 pick. Saying that he was supposed to go in the 2nd or 3rd round and magically jumped to the first due to networking is a lie

2nd part of my original comment was the more important one, too

No he was not a projected top 10 pick. Otherwise, the NY Giants would have picked him instead of Daniel Jones from Duke. Even his former coach at Ohio State, Urban Meyer, said that Haskins is nowhere ready to be the face of an NFL franchise. He would have fallen further had he not known Dan Snyder.

2nd part of your original comment. You don't have to go to private schools to be successful, admittedly your path to success will be me somewhat easier. There are plenty of good public schools in the US.

 

[RiverRat]

Affluent people don't usually play on public courts. The most affluent and well-connected tennis people I have met have been at a tennis resort here, where I am sometimes invited by the pro shop if they are trying to find a person to match a guest with.

If you have money, you don't want to park your Bentley in a public lot, walk in fine clothes in the evening near a broken-down middle school to get to the courts. You want to be able to go a great restroom, not a dirty public toilet. You want to take a shower afterwards and a massage in the spa. So many reasons.

Not all affluent people drive Bentleys nor do they live in neighborhoods near broken-down middle schools. The two multi-billionaires I'm friends with drive sensible cars and live in sensible neighborhoods and rarely wear fine clothes. One of them brought her friend Henry Louis Gates, Jr. to speak to her NFL team about racial justice, and the other uses his movie streaming fortune to fund research into better use of money to fund public education.You must be mixing with the other billionaires.

Still, I agree that something has to attract the wealthy to public courts so there's landscaping, shaded communal areas, a spray park, a bermuda grass soccer field, an artificial turf soccer field, multiple play areas all within a couple of blocks of multi-million dollar homes. Then there are good, socially minded individuals, who happen to be excellent tennis players as well. There are no security issues on most public tennis courts, as another poster seemed to think. There's nothing ghetto about many public tennis courts and, my guess is, most of the people on this forum have played on public courts. Yet, there are the elitist few who aren't aware of it.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Looking to study business/finance/economics after a lifetime of thinking I'd be doing medicine and pharmacy.

Use this time to re-evaluate that choice. I am not saying it is wrong to choose the former. I am a CPA-equivalent (Actually, I am or will soon officially be an Aus CPA too). I am just saying think carefully why you changed your mind and whether it was something transient or you have solid reasons to think about the former trio.

THEN, assuming you do decide that, yes, it's one of business/finance/economics, zero in on which of these because they are all different. They don't overlap as much as you may think.

An MBA will provide you a general set of tools to manage a business. With the manage part being more important than the business part. It's not going to teach you to come up with brilliant business ideas. But it will give you several frameworks to evaluate those ideas from a marketing/operations/financial and execute them.

Finance could be either high finance like investment banking or derivatives or the general accounting/tax/finance basket. Think about which direction you want to go into. You need to be good at math for high finance. So if you don't fancy math, think about it carefully. And where an MBA makes you a generalist, finance makes you a specialist. Later on in your career too, you will have to choose the work you want to pursue keeping this in mind.

Economics is a separate other field of study. And while it is found useful in some corporate echelons, especially in large banks like HSBC which have their own in house economists, it's much more of an academic oriented field. I said you need to be good at math for finance. For economics, you need to enjoy statistics. You will be leaving behind Alfred Marshall's elegant and frequently non-realistic economic theories pretty soon if you decide to major in it.

As a field of STUDY, you will find a business major the LEAST satisfying and economics maybe the MOST satisfying. But in the short term, a business major from a prestigious institute may fetch you more lucrative assignments.

Think about THAT as well as where your own interests REALLY lie to narrow down your choices. Or maybe you find your interests aren't in either of these or even medicine but something else altogether. Might be a good idea to write down what kind of topics interest you (as opposed to the subjects you study in school). Maybe that would guide you towards what kind of career you would like to pursue.

 

[yossarian]

No he was not a projected top 10 pick. Otherwise, the NY Giants would have picked him instead of Daniel Jones from Duke. Even his former coach at Ohio State, Urban Meyer, said that Haskins is nowhere ready to be the face of an NFL franchise. He would have fallen further had he not known Dan Snyder.

2nd part of your original comment. You don't have to go to private schools to be successful, admittedly your path to success will be me somewhat easier. There are plenty of good public schools in the US.

Daniel Jones was a surprise pick. Haskins was always a projected first rounder. Look it up. I’m done arguing with you

 

[bobleenov1963]

Daniel Jones was a surprise pick. Haskins was always a projected first rounder. Look it up. I’m done arguing with you

Again, you should quit while you're behind: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft...-idea-of-landing-with-the-giants-or-redskins/

"Although Haskins grew up as a Giants fan, he also has some interesting ties to the Redskins. According to Haskins, he wouldn't mind playing for Washington, and that's because he's "pretty good friends" with the son of owner Daniel Snyder."

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Forgive me for being blunt but isn't it rather presumptuous to think you know all about the legal and social apparatus of such yuge territories as Russia and the EU after living in a small part of each only for a handful of years? I do give more credence to your knowledge of British customs, but even here the Scottish Highlands are rather different socially, culturally and economically from Greater London.

I know for a fact that law/policy enforcement in (South) Korea is nowhere near as strict as in the US, and from my limited experience China is in the same (most likely worse) boat. (The one exception in East Asia is Japan.) So when @RiverRat says Italy is similar in that respect I tend to believe him, especially since my Italian friends and colleagues have suggested as much in our conversations. You don't at least with respect to this particular case, and you may well be right. It's still not worth raising a fuss over if you ask me, since you two at least agree that you can't just stay in the country indefinitely without proper documentation.

Isn’t it rather presumptuous to imply that a man who has gone through the immigration process multiple times in multiple countries doesn’t know what he’s talking about?

I question @RiverRat ’s story because it doesn’t add up. He implied that you don’t need a visa, but then said he had to go through a process to get a special stamp to stay in the country longer, which is what a visa is. Then, he said that he got that special permission after entering the country, which doesn’t match anything that I’ve ever seen elsewhere. The countries I have experience with issue such visas outside of their borders precisely to prevent people from moving into their lands without following immigration process beforehand (except for refugees and asylum seekers).

Finally, he said he got that stamp in a consulate, and although it was a bit unclear, it seemed he was saying he was still in Italy at the time. I’ve never seen a country that has a consulate within its own borders, and I don’t recall seeing an Italian consulate when I was in Rome last year. I saw consulates and embassies of other countries in Rome, and I know that Italy has consulates and embassies in other countries. I could be wrong here, but I don’t think there’s an Italian consulate in Italy. Also, I’ve never seen a country that allows foreign consulates to issue its visas. So like I said, his story doesn’t add up to me.

If this was all about some inconsequential thing, then I wouldn’t give a sh*t. But following immigration laws when moving to a foreign country is not an inconsequential thing.

 

[yossarian]

Again, you should quit while you're behind: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft...-idea-of-landing-with-the-giants-or-redskins/

"Although Haskins grew up as a Giants fan, he also has some interesting ties to the Redskins. According to Haskins, he wouldn't mind playing for Washington, and that's because he's "pretty good friends" with the son of owner Daniel Snyder."

Dude, are you serious?

"Of course, unless Washington is willing to trade up, it's highly unlikely that Haskins will end up with the Redskins, who hold the 15th overall pick in the draft. In the six mock drafts we have here at CBSSports.com, none of our writers have Haskins going to Washington, but two of them do envision the Giants landing him with the sixth overall pick."

 

[bobleenov1963]

Not all affluent people drive Bentleys nor do they live in neighborhoods near broken-down middle schools. The two multi-billionaires I'm friends with drive sensible cars and live in sensible neighborhoods and rarely wear fine clothes. One of them brought her friend Henry Louis Gates, Jr. to speak to her NFL team about racial justice, and the other uses his movie streaming fortune to fund research into better use of money to fund public education.You must be mixing with the other billionaires.

Still, I agree that something has to attract the wealthy to public courts so there's landscaping, shaded communal areas, a spray park, a bermuda grass soccer field, an artificial turf soccer field, multiple play areas all within a couple of blocks of multi-million dollar homes. Then there are good, socially minded individuals, who happen to be excellent tennis players as well. There are no security issues on most public tennis courts, as another poster seemed to think. There's nothing ghetto about many public tennis courts and, my guess is, most of the people on this forum have played on public courts. Yet, there are the elitist few who aren't aware of it.

Good for those Billionaires that live in your sensible neighborhoods. Perhaps, you should tell that to Dan Snyder (owner of Washington team), or Steve Case (founder of AOL). Last time I checked, they live in expensive neighborhoods and send their kids to private schools.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Dude, are you serious?

"Of course, unless Washington is willing to trade up, it's highly unlikely that Haskins will end up with the Redskins, who hold the 15th overall pick in the draft. In the six mock drafts we have here at CBSSports.com, none of our writers have Haskins going to Washington, but two of them do envision the Giants landing him with the sixth overall pick."

Dude, I am serious. As bad as Daniel Jones is this year, at least he is not embarrassing the Giants organization with the off-field problems while Haskins has been an embarrassment off the field. Nobody, both inside and outside of football, questions Jones, work ethics and maturity. The same can't be said about Haskins. Football people said he is lazy and not working hard to become a better a player and leader. I guess the Giant knew something so they picked Jones ahead of Haskins. Haskins is a totally embarrassment to my Alma mater Ohio State U.

 

[RiverRat]

@NonP it's not worth the effort. Now the guy calls me a liar. I'll address you. The consulate came to "'Unversita per Stranieri, where I was studying. All of the foreign students in Italy go to this one school in Perugia. All of us would have to show proper credentials before registering for the next semester. This is where the negotiating begins. Italy has a real culture of negotiation that those steeped in its ways understand. Outsiders, who don't know #*it, might think they understand its workings from afar.

He was never a real immigrant, not like the ones I was with who fled revolution or simply a better way of life. He went the corporate and university path, understanding nothing of real life, yet professes he knows more because it "doesn't match anything he has seen elsewhere." I'm not the least bit surprised. There's a lot of life that goes on about which he is ignorant, even after he has been told. As I remember, it was the carabinieri that stamped my passport for an extended stay. It was not a visa, which would have involved more red tape. I tell him it's not a visa, and it blows his small mind. Then he gets his hackles up defending himself, saying he's doing this for the benefit of others when it was clear from the start I said I got my passport stamped to extend my time, simply by showing financial means, which nearly all of the students there did too.

The meek shall inherit the earth, at least show it how to do things. It's not hard to show financial wherewithal. A community pools its resources and puts in a a singular account for a day or so, before moving it to the next account for a day or so, and so on...My time rubbing shoulders with the meek has taught me far more about life, resourcefulness, charity, humanity than rich people or my fancy degrees ever have.

 

[Keizer]

@jangotango

As someone who was in your shoes relatively recently -- I am Class of 2016 and applied to business school this year -- I completely understand how you are feeling. It seems as if there are people out there that do nothing apart from activities that are designed to pad their resume (or LinkedIns, more recently). Unfortunately, this is not going to change. We're currently in a world where it is easier than ever to share your achievements with people who might take note of them and that encourages pageantry. Here's a bit of advice for the long game (especially if you will consider an MBA in the future, given your interest in business/finance):

You're in at UT Austin and it is a great school. I don't know your situation, but I assume you are looking at some aid and will make a decision about where to go to school partially based on financial aid. If you do end up at UT Austin, don't think that it closes the doors to the "prestigious" or "big-ticket" job opportunities in finance or the top business schools in the future. Austin, as a city, is fast becoming a tech hub and access to that ecosystem will hugely improve your job prospects in the near future. However, if you do end up there, think carefully about what you want to do in the future and how you can connect the dots between your freshman self and that reality. Will it be through classes, clubs, through networking with alumni, or through a combination of the three? Make sure to immerse yourself into your activities at school so that you can have meaningful positions and experiences that you can call upon when going through the application processes for companies and eventually for grad school (especially MBA programs). I honestly believe both companies and schools look at what you have had to go through to get to where you are. This is especially true of MBA programs. Think about what you can do to maximize the "distance" you travel between where you are right now and where you will end up in four years, no matter which school you end up matriculating at.

You may not figure these things out immediately -- heck, I am 26 and am going to business school partially to figure stuff out -- but I've learned that trying to be deliberate about your choices is always a good thing. You've still got a long way to go and there are several doors that will open for you. Just try to make sure you're keeping an eye out for them.

Feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions. I studied Economics/Math at college and have seen friends go into several fields that you might be interested in long term.

(P.S. Wharton rejected me twice, for undergrad and MBA, but I think I did, and will do, fine. Don't let that one rejection deter you from putting your best foot forward for the rest of your applications.)

 

[yossarian]

Dude, I am serious. As bad as Daniel Jones is this year, at least he is not embarrassing the Giants organization with the off-field problems while Haskins has been an embarrassment off the field. Nobody, both inside and outside of football, questions Jones, work ethics and maturity. The same can't be said about Haskins. Football people said he is lazy and not working hard to become a better a player and leader. I guess the Giant knew something so they picked Jones ahead of Haskins. Haskins is a totally embarrassment to my Alma mater Ohio State U.

Okay, let me spell this out for you.

you: Haskins was a projected 2nd or 3rd rounder

Me: incorrect

You: totally correct! Here’s an article which says so. Quit while you’re behind!

Me: That article clearly projected Haskins to go to the giants at 6th overall

You: Haskins didn’t work out anyway!

Me: ???? How is that relevant?

Do you not understand that you were wrong?

 

[spaceman_spiff]

@NonP it's not worth the effort. Now the guy calls me a liar. I'll address you. The consulate came to "'Unversita per Stranieri, where I was studying. All of the foreign students in Italy go to this one school in Perugia. All of us would have to show proper credentials before registering for the next semester. This is where the negotiating begins. Italy has a real culture of negotiation that those steeped in its ways understand. Outsiders, who don't know #*it, might think they understand its workings from afar. He was never a real immigrant, like the ones I was with who fled revolution or simply a better way of life. He went the corporate and university path, understanding nothing of real life, yet professes he knows more because it "doesn't match anything he has seen elsewhere." I'm not the least bit surprised. There's a lot of life that goes on about which he is ignorant, even after he has been told. As I remember, it was the carabinieri that stamped my passport for an extended stay. It was not a visa, which would have involved more red tape. I tell him it's not a visa, and it blows his small mind. Then he gets his hackles up defending himself, saying he's doing this for the benefit of others when it was clear from the start I said I got my passport stamped to extend my time, simply by showing financial means, which nearly all of the students there did too.

I didn’t say you’re a liar. I said your story doesn’t add up, and I think it comes down to communication skills. Even this new explanation is inconsistent with what you’ve said before, but at least I can make sense of it now.

A consulate is a building, and a consul is a person. You originally said you went to a consulate, and now you’re saying a consulate came to you (though I’m pretty sure you mean consul), but you’re also saying that it was the police who actually gave you the stamp.

It’s not that I can’t understand that things work differently in different countries, it’s that you did not express yourself clearly to begin with. As I understand it now, you had to prove your student status to immigration officials each term, and local police gave you a temporary residence permit based on that status.

I’m not sure why you think that what you’re describing is dramatically different from, or easier to get than, what other countries refer to as a student visa, but that’s another argument for another day.

 

[bobleenov1963]

@jangotango As someone who was in your shoes relatively recently -- I am Class of 2016 and applied to business school this year -- I completely understand how you are feeling. It seems as if there are people out there that do nothing apart from activities that are designed to pad their resume (or LinkedIns, more recently). Unfortunately, this is not going to change. We're currently in a world where it is easier than ever to share your achievements with people who might take note of them and that encourages pageantry. Here's a bit of advice for the long game (especially if you will consider an MBA in the future, given your interest in business/finance):

I find that people who has MBA with knowledge in Information Technology are very successful. You don't need to be a subject matter expert in technology, just need to understand it enough to manage engineers and technical people. For someone who just graduate with a business degree, you can get Amazon Web Services (AWS) certifications. If you have those AWS certifications, companies will trip over each other to hire you, along with your business degree. AWS certifications will you instant credibility in the IT world. One other thing, avoid student debt at all cost. Best of luck to you bud...

I've been in Austin about ten times in the past two years for IT conferences. I have to say the weather is hot there. I've gone to Ann Richard highway to watch the bat show everytime when I am in Austin.

 

[Keizer]

I find that people who has MBA with knowledge in Information Technology are very successful. You don't need to be a subject matter expert in technology, just need to understand it enough to manage engineers and technical people.

Agreed, this what my father (engineer + MBA) always tells me. I currently have no debt, but think I'll accrue some by the end of the MBA. Should be able to manage, though.

As for Austin, I've only been there once for a music festival, which was awesome. One of my best friends is from there and has several UT friends that have managed to land on their feet nicely post-college -- I am sure OP will as well, should it come to that.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

No he was not a projected top 10 pick.

There's this new web search engine called Google, it's pretty good. You should consider learning to use it.

 

[yossarian]

There's this new web search engine called Google, it's pretty good. You should consider learning to use it.

The article he himself cited projected him at 6. I feel like I’m in the twilight zone

 

[RiverRat]

I didn’t say you’re a liar. I said your story doesn’t add up, and I think it comes down to communication skills. Even this new explanation is inconsistent with what you’ve said before, but at least I can make sense of it now.

A consulate is a building, and a consul is a person. You originally said you went to a consulate, and now you’re saying a consulate came to you (though I’m pretty sure you mean consul), but you’re also saying that it was the police who actually gave you the stamp.

It’s not that I can’t understand that things work differently in different countries, it’s that you did not express yourself clearly to begin with. As I understand it now, you had to prove your student status to immigration officials each term, and local police gave you a temporary residence permit based on that status.

I’m not sure why you think that what you’re describing is dramatically different from, or easier to get than, what other countries refer to as a student visa, but that’s another argument for another day.

Your entire post is filled with misinformation and straight forward lies, probably because you are unable to acknowledge mistakes. Yeah, I'm calling you a liar. You said my story didn't add up and then changed details and order to suit this narrative. Where I'm from that's calling someone a liar and then lying your way out of it. On misinformation, calling the carabinieri local police is like calling the FBI local police. They are federal and act in an immigration capacity. Again, either suited your narrative or simply displayed your ignorance of Italy. I also never said this was an easier process (although uneducated people from the third world seeking a better life follow it), but that was an argument you thought you could win, so you made it. I never even mentioned a "consulate" until after you accused me of being illegal, despite my having clearly stated I had been stamped, not having received a stamp, nor received it from a consulate. All of that came later as I foolishly tried to explain that this was a legal process I had undertaken. I know better than to engage someone as disingenuous as you, but I was foolish. Lesson learned.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Your entire post is filled with misinformation and straight forward lies, probably because you are unable to acknowledge mistakes. Yeah, I'm calling you a liar. You said my story didn't add up and then changed details and order to suit this narrative. Where I'm from that's calling someone a liar and then lying your way out of it. On misinformation, calling the carabinieri local police is like calling the FBI local police. They are federal and act in an immigration capacity. Again, either suited your narrative or simply displayed your ignorance of Italy. I also never said this was an easier process (although uneducated people from the third world seeking a better life follow it), but that was an argument you thought you could win, so you made it. I never even mentioned a "consulate" until after you accused me of being illegal, despite my having clearly stated I had been stamped, not having received a stamp, nor received it from a consulate. All of that came later as I foolishly tried to explain that this was a legal process I had undertaken. I know better than to engage someone as disingenuous as you, but I was foolish. Lesson learned.

To be fair to spliffy there, he's been to countries in the EU, but he's never been to Italia...

Looks like you got your student/tourist visa extended by the Carabinieri and things were done the way many things are done in Italia. Given you had an American passport, it was an easy process, probably other people from other places would have a harder time, Italians are not exactly very... uh... inclusive... to be nice.

And you, man... comparing the Carabinieri to the FBI??? Ma che cazzo fai!!!

 

[RiverRat]

To be fair to spliffy there, he's been to countries in the EU, but he's never been to Italia...

Looks like you got your student/tourist visa extended by the Carabinieri and things were done the way many things are done in Italia. Given you had an American passport, it was an easy process, probably other people from other places would have a harder time, Italians are not exactly very... uh... inclusive... to be nice.

And you, man... comparing the Carabinieri with the FBI??? Ma che cazzo fai!!!

Va fan culo!

 

[NonP]

What better time to consider one's own personality and interests than at the point of college commitment? "Go solo" is defining my suggestion too narrowly. Perhaps one decides they want to end up as entrepreneur, but wants a college degree regardless. At a minimum, that might change the college and degree choice. It might mean working in an industry/trade instead of going to college, and "go solo" later debt free, with accumulated business knowledge WAY more valuable than your college Sociology class. It might mean ... Tango examined his inner being and nothing excites him more than working 60 hours a week for an a..ss..ho!e boss. Like I said ... we are all different. Our head tennis pro studied engineering in college ... later figured out what made him happy was running a tennis club and teaching tennis.

It's common sense that the typical college applicant is not ready to venture out into the real world. Advising him to keep business ownership as a long-term option is fine, but this kid is clearly more interested in how to navigate college life in the short term and that's why I said you were making several leaps with your original advice.

Isn’t it rather presumptuous to imply that a man who has gone through the immigration process multiple times in multiple countries doesn’t know what he’s talking about?

Sorry, this sleight of hand won't let you off the hook. I never said or implied that you don't know what you were talking about and in fact conceded that you might be right on this particular point. I simply said you didn't seem to be considering the possibility that not everyone at every EU member country does everything strictly by the book, and so far you've done nothing to refute it except to say that's not how things were done in your own (self-professedly) extensive experience.

I question @RiverRat ’s story because it doesn’t add up. He implied that you don’t need a visa, but then said he had to go through a process to get a special stamp to stay in the country longer, which is what a visa is. Then, he said that he got that special permission after entering the country, which doesn’t match anything that I’ve ever seen elsewhere. The countries I have experience with issue such visas outside of their borders precisely to prevent people from moving into their lands without following immigration process beforehand (except for refugees and asylum seekers).

Finally, he said he got that stamp in a consulate, and although it was a bit unclear, it seemed he was saying he was still in Italy at the time. I’ve never seen a country that has a consulate within its own borders, and I don’t recall seeing an Italian consulate when I was in Rome last year. I saw consulates and embassies of other countries in Rome, and I know that Italy has consulates and embassies in other countries. I could be wrong here, but I don’t think there’s an Italian consulate in Italy. Also, I’ve never seen a country that allows foreign consulates to issue its visas. So like I said, his story doesn’t add up to me.

Not really interested in this hairsplitting. If this is a hill you're willing to die on take it up with your original sparring partner.

If this was all about some inconsequential thing, then I wouldn’t give a sh*t. But following immigration laws when moving to a foreign country is not an inconsequential thing.

LOL, like you really expected anyone to treat as gospel what a couple of bickering guys say about Italian visa requirements on a tennis forum. You jumped in because you saw a chance to flaunt your immigrant/expat cred, and when @RiverRat contradicted you on how one could take advantage of (allegedly, yes) lax standards in another EU country which seems to have largely escaped your radar you took up the challenge and now find yourself at this silly game of red vs. ruby.

That's all there is to it. Spare us the I-need-to-fight-this-dangerous-falsehood act, puh-lease.

@NonP it's not worth the effort. Now the guy calls me a liar. I'll address you. The consulate came to "'Unversita per Stranieri, where I was studying. All of the foreign students in Italy go to this one school in Perugia. All of us would have to show proper credentials before registering for the next semester. This is where the negotiating begins. Italy has a real culture of negotiation that those steeped in its ways understand. Outsiders, who don't know #*it, might think they understand its workings from afar.

He was never a real immigrant, not like the ones I was with who fled revolution or simply a better way of life. He went the corporate and university path, understanding nothing of real life, yet professes he knows more because it "doesn't match anything he has seen elsewhere." I'm not the least bit surprised. There's a lot of life that goes on about which he is ignorant, even after he has been told. As I remember, it was the carabinieri that stamped my passport for an extended stay. It was not a visa, which would have involved more red tape. I tell him it's not a visa, and it blows his small mind. Then he gets his hackles up defending himself, saying he's doing this for the benefit of others when it was clear from the start I said I got my passport stamped to extend my time, simply by showing financial means, which nearly all of the students there did too.

The meek shall inherit the earth, at least show it how to do things. It's not hard to show financial wherewithal. A community pools its resources and puts in a a singular account for a day or so, before moving it to the next account for a day or so, and so on...My time rubbing shoulders with the meek has taught me far more about life, resourcefulness, charity, humanity than rich people or my fancy degrees ever have.

But you see, our globetrotting friend knows all there is to know about the EU because he's lived in two of its 27 member states and traveled through who knows how many others from time to time. We yokels couldn't possibly compete with his bottomless fountain of knowledge!

 

[sureshs]

Isn’t it rather presumptuous to imply that a man who has gone through the immigration process multiple times in multiple countries doesn’t know what he’s talking about?

I question @RiverRat ’s story because it doesn’t add up. He implied that you don’t need a visa, but then said he had to go through a process to get a special stamp to stay in the country longer, which is what a visa is. Then, he said that he got that special permission after entering the country, which doesn’t match anything that I’ve ever seen elsewhere. The countries I have experience with issue such visas outside of their borders precisely to prevent people from moving into their lands without following immigration process beforehand (except for refugees and asylum seekers).

Finally, he said he got that stamp in a consulate, and although it was a bit unclear, it seemed he was saying he was still in Italy at the time. I’ve never seen a country that has a consulate within its own borders, and I don’t recall seeing an Italian consulate when I was in Rome last year. I saw consulates and embassies of other countries in Rome, and I know that Italy has consulates and embassies in other countries. I could be wrong here, but I don’t think there’s an Italian consulate in Italy. Also, I’ve never seen a country that allows foreign consulates to issue its visas. So like I said, his story doesn’t add up to me.

If this was all about some inconsequential thing, then I wouldn’t give a sh*t. But following immigration laws when moving to a foreign country is not an inconsequential thing.

In India, sometimes you can get what is called "Visa on arrival." It is for those who had to travel for family emergencies on short notice or some such circumstances. The visa is issued at the airport.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Your entire post is filled with misinformation and straight forward lies, probably because you are unable to acknowledge mistakes. Yeah, I'm calling you a liar. You said my story didn't add up and then changed details and order to suit this narrative. Where I'm from that's calling someone a liar and then lying your way out of it. On misinformation, calling the carabinieri local police is like calling the FBI local police. They are federal and act in an immigration capacity. Again, either suited your narrative or simply displayed your ignorance of Italy. I also never said this was an easier process (although uneducated people from the third world seeking a better life follow it), but that was an argument you thought you could win, so you made it. I never even mentioned a "consulate" until after you accused me of being illegal, despite my having clearly stated I had been stamped, not having received a stamp, nor received it from a consulate. All of that came later as I foolishly tried to explain that this was a legal process I had undertaken. I know better than to engage someone as disingenuous as you, but I was foolish. Lesson learned.

You said that just living in a country would better than going there to study. I said that most people don’t have the ability to get the necessary visa/permit to do so if they’re not a student, and then you said

Yeah, this is Italy. Visa, shmisa. It's part of the cultural experience. You stand in a line. Tell them you're enjoying your stay. They say you have to go. You say you want to stay. Show them you have money in your bank account. Praise Garibaldi. After 5 minutes they stamp your passport. This is one of the many things you learn when you go native. It's certainly not for everyone. Americans like certainty.

Now to me, that looks like you’re saying it’s quite easy to get a stamp in your passport after you have already arrived in Italy and have been there long enough for immigration officials to tell you to leave, and that’s when it sounded unbelievable to me, because such an immigration system would be far too easy for anyone to scam.

But now that you’ve offered a clearer explanation of your actual experience, I can see that what you described was actually the process of activating/renewing your student residence permit and did not address my point about getting a visa or residence permit for those who are not students.

But yeah, for those who have the option of enrolling in a postgrad program at a university that will allow them to spend a significant period of time in a country without taking classes and without losing their student status, go for it. For everyone else, the options are going abroad to study or going abroad to work, and getting a visa to do the former is much easier than the latter in my experience.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

To be fair to spliffy there, he's been to countries in the EU, but he's never been to Italia...

Actually, I’ve been there a few time. But you go ahead and keep posting your assumptions. They’re pretty funny.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Actually, I’ve been there a few time. But you go ahead and keep posting your assumptions. They’re pretty funny.

Lighten up, spliffy...

 

[spaceman_spiff]

But you see, our globetrotting friend knows all there is to know about the EU because he's lived in two of its 27 member states and traveled through who knows how many others from time to time. We yokels couldn't possibly compete with his bottomless fountain of knowledge!

I’m not claiming to know everything about every country, but I do know enough to call BS when someone acts like anyone from America can move to an EU country without a visa and then easily sort out their immigration status after they arrive. If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

As it turns out, I was right about Italy. @RiverRat ’s original description of the Italian immigration process only covered renewing his student residence permit and neglected to mention the other requirements that went along with it. Now that he’s offered a more detailed description of the process, it turns out that it’s much more than just the 5-minute cakewalk he originally described.

Anyway, feel free to add more sarcastic remarks. It makes you look really clever.

 

[RiverRat]

Now to me, that looks like you’re saying it’s quite easy to get a stamp in your passport after you have already arrived in Italy and have been there long enough for immigration officials to tell you to leave, and that’s when it sounded unbelievable to me, because such an immigration system would be far too easy for anyone to scam.

But now that you’ve offered a clearer explanation of your actual experience, I can see that what you described was actually the process of activating/renewing your student residence permit and did not address my point about getting a visa or residence permit for those who are not students

Uh, no. I was never there on a student visa, so wrong again. They did not care if I were a student. The university required me to show I was validly in the country to register but the government did not ask me to show I was a student. All they wanted was proof that I had the financial wherewithal to be in the country and not work. I don't know how many times and different ways I have to say it and still you will not understand because you don't understand and keep assuming you do. Then you'll tell me I was unclear and we'll be back here. But this time, so help me God, I'm done.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Uh, no. I was never there on a student visa, so wrong again. They did not care if I were a student. The university required me to show I was validly in the country to register but the government did not ask me to show I was a student. All they wanted was proof that I had the financial wherewithal to be in the country and not work. I don't know how many times and different ways I have to say it and still you will not understand because you don't understand and keep assuming you do. Then you'll tell me I was unclear and we'll be back here. But this time, so help me God, I'm done.

The way this goes is, everyone will be done with this except for spiffy, who will continue posting until everyone else just gives up. And with that, he will win the Internet today!

WELL DONE @spaceman_spiff!!!

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Uh, no. I was never there on a student visa, so wrong again. They did not care if I were a student. The university required me to show I was validly in the country to register but the government did not ask me to show I was a student. All they wanted was proof that I had the financial wherewithal to be in the country and not work. I don't know how many times and different ways I have to say it and still you will not understand because you don't understand and keep assuming you do. Then you'll tell me I was unclear and we'll be back here. But this time, so help me God, I'm done.

I’m just going to post this here and let you argue with the US embassy in Italy rather than with me

https://it.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/visiting-living/

 

[spaceman_spiff]

The way this goes is, everyone will be done with this except for spiffy, who will continue posting until everyone else just gives up. And with that, he will win the Internet today!

WELL DONE @spaceman_spiff!!!

US embassy for the win.

Technical Difficulties

 

[NonP]

I’m not claiming to know everything about every country, but I do know enough to call BS when someone acts like anyone from America can move to an EU country without a visa and then easily sort out their immigration status after they arrive. If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

That's not exactly what @RiverRat said. Why am I getting this sense that you're trying to make the other side's actual statements look worse than they are so you can say you were right after all?

As it turns out, I was right about Italy. @RiverRat ’s original description of the Italian immigration process only covered renewing his student residence permit and neglected to mention the other requirements that went along with it. Now that he’s offered a more detailed description of the process, it turns out that it’s much more than just the 5-minute cakewalk he originally described.

There's my answer. I dig this other sleight of hand of yours in switching from "visa" to "residence permit," but looks like your new BFF has refuted your accusation once again. I'm afraid your claim of victory was premature, my dear globetrotter!

Anyway, feel free to add more sarcastic remarks. It makes you look really clever.

I’m just going to post this here and let you argue with the US embassy in Italy rather than with me https://it.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/visiting-living/

Ah but you see, @RiverRat never disputed Italy's immigration law itself. He simply said Italian authorities cared more about his wallet than about his visa/passport while he was there. That's why I suggested you consider the possibility that certain foreign nationals tend to be trusted above the others in the country, which @Slowtwitcher understands to be the case, but instead of addressing that plausible reality you keep brandishing this by-the-book requirement that any half-awake moron could pull off Google in a nanosecond. Sorry but I don't buy your claim of expertise on this matter and a thousand links to the US Embassy page won't save your azz here!

US embassy for the win.

Technical Difficulties

We already got the message that you wanna claim victory after being called out by at least two posters with firsthand experience. Your problem is that you don't seem to understand there are implicit as well as explicit rules in the real world, which is rather suspect for such a well-traveled cosmopolitan which you claims to be. Maybe less screen time on your next trip will do you some good!

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Ah but you see, @RiverRat never disputed Italy's immigration law itself.

No, he just bragged about how easy it was for him to game the system. And yet, he got really offended when I used the term “illegal” to describe his actions. Maybe he prefers “shady,” “dodgy,” or “questionable.”

Anyway, such actions carry risks of serious problems, and that’s my beef with his posts. Even if I were confident that I could get away with taking those risks myself, I would never advise others to do the same. I wouldn’t even talk about it in front of anyone I might inadvertently encourage, like a teenager looking for advice on college.

 

[RiverRat]

There was nothing "shady, dodgy, or questionable." I was in a country legally and asked if I could stay longer. They said yes, and I stayed. Had they said no, I would have left.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Your problem is that you don't seem to understand there are implicit as well as explicit rules in the real world, which is rather suspect for such a well-traveled cosmopolitan which you claims to be.

I think this is worth a separate reply.

One thing I learned in Russia is that, when you follow official procedures, it leaves you in a much better position when dealing with officials of any kind. On the other hand, when you don’t follow official procedures, it leaves you in a weak position where you’re far more susceptible to the will of individuals.

All it takes is a single official who decides not to play along, and you’re screwed. He/she can easily shut you down, pressure you into paying a bribe, or even throw the book at you if the will is there, and you will have few if any options available, because you are technically in the wrong and the official knows it.

That’s what I understand about implicit and explicit rules. You can easily get caught out if you only follow the former and ignore the latter.

But maybe officials in other countries with lax attitudes toward the law are different. Maybe they never use their power to take advantage of people they find in legally vulnerable positions.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

There was nothing "shady, dodgy, or questionable." I was in a country legally and asked if I could stay longer. They said yes, and I stayed. Had they said no, I would have left.

According to the US embassy in Italy, you didn’t follow official procedures for gaining residency. Just because officials allowed you to get away with it doesn’t mean you followed the law.

 

[tennischef]

@jangotango life seems so make-or-break at your age, especially for those like you who have worked hard and had some successes. Follow your interests where they take you. I went to business school at UVA. It was a great educational experience, followed by twenty loveless years in finance. I now teach elementary school and feel love and joy every day. I also have more time for family and tennis. When I was your age I thought I wanted to do something important. I now realize that whatever I do can be important. If someone teaches tennis with passion and makes the game more accessible and enjoyable to others, I can't imagine anything more important.

You probably got sacked and are trying to justify your new life. Also lol UVA’s business school....

 

[NonP]

No, he just bragged about how easy it was for him to game the system. And yet, he got really offended when I used the term “illegal” to describe his actions. Maybe he prefers “shady,” “dodgy,” or “questionable.”

Anyway, such actions carry risks of serious problems, and that’s my beef with his posts. Even if I were confident that I could get away with taking those risks myself, I would never advise others to do the same. I wouldn’t even talk about it in front of anyone I might inadvertently encourage, like a teenager looking for advice on college.

To me he "bragged" about his experience in Italy no more than you do about your own in continental Europe, Russia, Britain, etc. And it's a decidedly uncharitable reading to say he "game[d] the system" or was trying to "advise others to do the same." Per his account the Italian authorities cared more about his value as a tourist (and an American one at that) than about his immigration status, and again I find it quite believable.

I think this is worth a separate reply.

One thing I learned in Russia is that, when you follow official procedures, it leaves you standing on solid ground when dealing with officials of any kind. On the other hand, when you don’t follow official procedures, it leaves you in a weak position where you’re far more susceptible to the will of individuals.

All it takes is a single official who decides not to play along, and you’re screwed. He/she can easily shut you down, pressure you into paying a bribe, or even throw the book at you if the will is there, and you will have few if any options available, because you and the official both know that you are technically in the wrong.

Or to put it another way, if you’re ever faced with a Moscow policeman who has a sub-machine gun slung over his shoulder and is determined to scare you into paying a bribe, you’ll be glad if you followed official procedures in getting your documents.

(And yes, that is an actual, unexaggerated, firsthand experience of mine.)

Well, Russia is not Italy, which in turn isn't (anecdotally, yes) America or presumably Britain. It's important to follow official procedures everywhere, yes, but it also helps to know when and how to work with or get around (as opposed to "game") the system.

Though you place much trust in your firsthand experiences but not so much in those of others I'll share some of my own. Anyone who's been to Japan should know its drivers are among the most exemplary, disciplined in the world, and chances are you'll be frowned upon if you change lanes there half as much as we do in the US. But not so much in (South) Korea where doing everything by the book in heavy traffic will get you cursed out and honked at in all directions.

I'd certainly recommend following every driving law and custom in Japan, but suggest some flexibility in its neighbor SK even though I'd never sanction anything "illegal." That's how I read @RiverRat's "bragging" about his experience in Italy, and I know I'm not alone.

All of which is a long way of saying, maybe you should chill a bit and acknowledge that rules are protections, not killjoys. Let's make it a Happy 2021!

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Still going...

 

[spaceman_spiff]

@NonP I think you’ll find that a lot of countries take their immigration laws more seriously than their traffic laws. And if you ever encounter an official who isn’t happy that you haven’t followed their immigration laws, then I’m willing to bet the consequences will be much worse than if you get pulled over for changing lanes without signalling.

But hey, in Italy it doesn’t matter apparently. Some guy off the internet ignored official procedures without any consequences, so that’s all we need to know. Apparently, despite what the US embassy says, the real immigration procedure is to show a bank slip to the police and have a 5-minute chat about Garibaldi.

You learn something thing new every day.

 

[NonP]

@NonP I think you’ll find that a lot of countries take their immigration laws more seriously than their traffic laws. And if you ever encounter an official who isn’t happy that you haven’t followed their immigration laws, then I’m willing to bet the consequences will be much worse than if you get pulled over for changing lanes without signalling.

But hey, in Italy it doesn’t matter apparently. Some guy off the internet ignored official procedures without any consequences, so that’s all we need to know. Apparently, despite what the US embassy says, the real immigration procedure is to show a bank slip to the police and have a 5-minute chat about Garibaldi.

You learn something thing new every day.

The point of an analogy isn't to compare the exact parameters of two different examples, but to find a common thread between them. That you fail to acknowledge the obvious parallel here just confirms what I suspected, and your passive-aggressive schtick to try to win the argument (again) clinches it.

Just drop the concerned-observer act and say you'll never admit "some guy on the internet" might be more in tune with how "the real immigration procedure" works (or at least used to work) in Italy. That way you two can declare an impasse and move on.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

The point of an analogy isn't to compare the exact parameters of two different examples, but to find a common thread between them. That you fail to acknowledge the obvious parallel here just confirms what I suspected, and your passive-aggressive schtick to try to win the argument (again) clinches it.

Just drop the concerned-observer act and say you'll never admit "some guy on the internet" might be more in tune with how "the real immigration procedure" works (or at least used to work) in Italy. That way you two can declare an impasse and move on.

I‘m not sure why you can’t believe that an American citizen living abroad might genuinely be concerned when someone goes on a public forum and says it’s ok for Americans to circumvent official immigration procedures in another country. It seems odd to me that your default position is to attack a person arguing in favor of following the law.

Anyway, I don’t think @RiverRat is lying about his personal experience, but I also don’t think it’s a good idea for others to follow his example. It can lead to serious problems, and people should take that into consideration.

Follow the guidelines offered by the US embassy, and you’ll be ok. Try to circumvent official procedures and “work” the system, and you’re taking a risk which could come back and bite you in the ass.

Again, this is the US embassy’s guidance on Italy.

Technical Difficulties

 

[RiverRat]

The

Anyway, I don’t think @RiverRat is lying about his personal experience, but I also don’t think it’s a good idea for others to follow his example. It can lead to serious problems, and people should take that into consideration.

Follow the guidelines offered by the US embassy, and you’ll be ok. Try to circumvent official procedures and “work” the system, and you’re taking a risk which could come back and bite you in the ass.

I appreciate your magnanimity but you are still way off-base. A U.S. embassy posts procedures to help U.S. citizens. It does not make or state Italian law. If one is in a country legally and wishes to extend their stay they should comply with the countries laws. I followed Italy's laws. I appealed to the proper authorities and showed them the requested documentation. I initially posted with a caveat, saying Americans (like you), who are unfamiliar with a nation's laws, might be uncomfortable and you have demonstrated it. It's not uncommon for travelers to find they wish to stay longer in a country once they are there. My advice was to consult the proper authorities, provide the requested documentation, and receive official approval. Since then you have tried to construe my act as improper and cast aspersions on my character as "shady." I just had someone else in this thread say,

You probably got sacked and are trying to justify your new life. Also lol UVA’s business school....

when I was simply advising an OP to follow his dreams and do what makes him happy. You guys are pathetic! Little men, with little minds, and little game.

 

[NonP]

I‘m not sure why you can’t believe that an American citizen living abroad might genuinely be concerned when someone goes on a public forum and says it’s ok for Americans to circumvent official immigration procedures in another country. It seems odd to me that your default position is to attack a person arguing in favor of following the law.

Anyway, I don’t think @RiverRat is lying about his personal experience, but I also don’t think it’s a good idea for others to follow his example. It can lead to serious problems, and people should take that into consideration.

Follow the guidelines offered by the US embassy, and you’ll be ok. Try to circumvent official procedures and “work” the system, and you’re taking a risk which could come back and bite you in the ass.

Again, this is the US embassy’s guidance on Italy.

Technical Difficulties

Look, we'll never see eye to eye on this so let's just get one thing straight: I didn't attack you for arguing in favor of Italy's immigration laws, but for giving @RiverRat next to no benefit of the doubt while all but expecting it on your own end. None of us have suggested anyone break any laws, which is why I'm mystified by your beating on that dead horse which left the barn at least 24 hours ago.

We already know you'll never yield on this. If you refuse to move on at least stop posting that link for the 59383th time as if it proves anything.

when I was simply advising an OP to follow his dreams and do want makes him happy. You guys are pathetic! Little men, with little minds, and little game.

Like I said in that other thread the brat "works" in private equity. Explains everything, really.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Spiffy will post again in 3... 2... 1...

 

[Pmasterfunk]

Spiffy will post again in 3... 2... 1...

C C C C C COMBO BREAKER

 

[spaceman_spiff]

The

I appreciate your magnanimity but you are still way off-base. A U.S. embassy posts procedures to help U.S. citizens. It does not make or state Italian law. If one is in a country legally and wishes to extend their stay they should comply with the countries laws. I followed Italy's laws. I appealed to the proper authorities and showed them the requested documentation. I initially posted with a caveat, saying Americans (like you), who are unfamiliar with a nation's laws, might be uncomfortable and you have demonstrated it. It's not uncommon for travelers to find they wish to stay longer in a country once they are there. My advice was to consult the proper authorities, provide the requested documentation, and receive official approval. Since then you have tried to construe my act as improper and cast aspersions on my character as "shady."

Correct me if I’m wrong anywhere here. From what I gather, you went to Italy to stay there for a year. But, you followed the procedure for a short-term stay when you first entered the country; i.e., you only had your passport and no visa the first time you went through passport control. You then went about getting an extension using the procedure designed for those who need to stay longer than they originally planned, even though you were always planning on staying beyond the 90 days you’re allowed without a visa.

If that’s an accurate summary, unless your trip was so long ago that the rules were completely different than they are now, then it sounds to me like you gamed the system.

Also, your original statement about visas was basically that they are unnecessary for a long-term stay if people just do what you did (show your bank balance and have a 5-minute chat with the police), and your original caveat was “It’s certainly not for everyone. Americans like certainty.” That’s it.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Spiffy will post again in 3... 2... 1...

You failed to account for the time difference between the US and UK.

 

[RiverRat]

I was traveling Europe for an indefinite period. I didn't know how long I would be anywhere. Stop with the accusations. I'm tired of the recriminations. Of course, even if this was explanation enough you're going to say that I was advocating that visas are unnecessary. I wasn't advocating anything. I was explaining that if you were in a country and decide to extend your stay you can--enjoy the brunello, have some wine and cheese, hangout in the piazza with a gelato, and down you come like the archangel of the mattress police, accusing me of corrupting the youth, as was Socrates. Where's my hemlock?

 

[jangotango]

I'm doing final check overs and edits. Thank you all for the tips and tricks, personal anecdotes, and lessons to live life by. It really means a lot to me, and I'm sure anyone else who might need this thread.

Yes, a good bit of this thread got wildly off topic, but hey, communication is the first step to working together, right? And big, true families argue all the time

 

[RiverRat]

Good luck @jangotango and let us know how it all goes. It's an exciting time in your life.