Applying to College is Disheartening

[yossarian]

Honestly, I think part of it was just me. I have this mentality of never having confidence until I'm close to top dog. Well at a good school, it became basically impossible for me to be top in anything besides the classroom, which is an almost useless skill. The school I went to sucks in retrospect, but I can't blame them for making me unemployable, that's on me.

What did you major in?

 

[FRV4]

What did you major in?

Biochem. I'm not interested in going down that path anymore though. I was only doing it for medical school, but started suffering from mental problems my junior year so thought better of it.

 

[DSH]

 

[Pmasterfunk]

This is basically what happened with me. Classes were fine but the culture of academia (like working in a lab or what not) was too much for me. They expect you to be real confident and outgoing, which I just wasn’t. They eventually started to think I was dumb or not interested, when really I just couldn’t break out of my shell. No doubt in my mind I became a worse person going to the school that I did.

Navigating the social aspects of university can be challenging, and a lot of the social norms and functions don't appeal to everyone.

I also think the "networking" aspect of university may be more specific to the US. I don't remember having many opportunities to "rub shoulders" with corporate bigwigs and/or famous alumni, it was just a place to learn and prepare students for a career.

 

[FRV4]

Navigating the social aspects of university can be challenging, and a lot of the social norms and functions don't appeal to everyone.

I also think the "networking" aspect of university may be more specific to the US. I don't remember having many opportunities to "rub shoulders" with corporate bigwigs and/or famous alumni, it was just a place to learn and prepare students for a career.

I don’t think the term “networking” is used that narrowly. I think of it just as making friends who will be willing to help you out if the situation arises, such as recommending you for a position when they are asked if they know anybody. Same thing with professors. They get called by former students sometimes to see if they know anyone worth hiring.

 

[the green god]

Go to a state college, party your azz off, save $100,000, get a decent job and start out way ahead of most of your peers.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

No, and I don't think I'll be able to satisfy residency demands. I'm not too interested in international offerings anyways. A lot of US universities offer study abroad programs (NYU requires it for business/econ I'm pretty sure), and I think that'd be a much better choice.

I highly recommend doing a study abroad program, especially if you can go for a full school year. It gives you a better understanding not only of the outside world but also of America itself. It also teaches you how to adapt to new environments and get along with people from very different backgrounds, which is very useful.

My other advice is to focus heavily on your communication skills, especially composition, regardless of which school you attend or which major you go for. The ability to express yourself clearly is a skill that will make it easier to get ahead in the business world.

 

[sureshs]

I don't think that is accurate. If you plan ahead and stick to the game plan, you can get an AA degree at the community and then transfer to a 4 years college, you can finish that in 4 years. Every majors has all the courses spell out in the requirements. It is not rocket science.



If you can not get at least 3.5GPA at a community college, maybe college is not for you. Community college is just as easy as high school. Almost 60% of people at community college are either working full time or part time. If you're a full time student at a community college and your goal is to transfer to either UCLA (in CA) or UVA (in VA), and that you treat community more than a full time job, you will be in the top 1% of the student at your community college. That will allow you to transfer to either UCLA or UVA.

Students who are attending community college and working either full time or part time, they can not compete with you. They have to spend time working while you're using that time to study. That's the fact.

Yes, the major requirements are spelt out, but some transfer students find it difficult to finish the remaining courses in 2 years. It has to do with prerequisites and course offerings not matching the semester/quarter timeline. Sometimes, there is also a cultural shock issue, because the student is now often facing a more academically talented peer group and more demanding Professors. That is why Universities have special counsellors for transfer students.

Re: getting 3.5 GPA, all students I know who went the 2+2 route managed it, but it is not good to put your career on the line based on a GPA. I don't think community colleges allow retaking of courses to improve grades, and even if they did, that would take more time.

If you argue that if you don't get a 3.5 GPA in community college, then college is not for you, then that is similar to saying if you cannot get a 3.2 GPA in 4 year college, then maybe you should not have gone to college. Yet there are so many who get less than that and have great lives.

Being forced to maintain a high GPA is not good for mental health.

 

[bobleenov1963]

I highly recommend doing a study abroad program, especially if you can go for a full school year. It gives you a better understanding not only of the outside world but also of America itself. It also teaches you how to adapt to new environments and get along with people from very different backgrounds, which is very useful.

My other advice is to focus heavily on your communication skills, especially composition, regardless of which school you attend or which major you go for. The ability to express yourself clearly is a skill that will make it easier to get ahead in the business world.

Everyone needs to listen to this dude, @spaceman_spiff. What he said is absolutely true, especially about "focus heavily on your communication skills, especially composition and The ability to express yourself". That is so much more important than your technical skill.

I don’t think the term “networking” is used that narrowly. I think of it just as making friends who will be willing to help you out if the situation arises, such as recommending you for a position when they are asked if they know anybody. Same thing with professors. They get called by former students sometimes to see if they know anyone worth hiring.

"networking" is very important. I have been working for the almost 30 years and have gone through 9 different employers. Not once I had to apply for a job. All of the jobs I got were based on I know someone at the company. Even with my first job out of college, I got that job because I knew someone at the company and that person vouched for me. Next thing I knew, I was hired as a computer programmer for a salary of 33k/year in 1990.

The world is full of "it is not how much you know but who you know".

 

[Harry_Wild]

The school you graduated from only matters in your 1st couple of jobs but after that, it your performance, personality and likability for promotions and changing companies for next level opportunities in management. The higher you move up the ladder, it more political, you have to form mentors and allies within in the company and outside too.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Yes, the major requirements are spelt out, but some transfer students find it difficult to finish the remaining courses in 2 years. It has to do with prerequisites and course offerings not matching the semester/quarter timeline. Sometimes, there is also a cultural shock issue, because the student is now often facing a more academically talented peer group and more demanding Professors. That is why Universities have special counsellors for transfer students..

Point taken. Like I said, if you're disciplined and set a goal for yourself, it CAN BE done. I think of Community College like a Challenger circuit while 4 years colleges like UCLA or UVA is an ATP tour.

If you argue that if you don't get a 3.5 GPA in community college, then college is not for you, then that is similar to saying if you cannot get a 3.2 GPA in 4 year college, then maybe you should not have gone to college. Yet there are so many who get less than that and have great lives.

I took classes at community college in my high school senior year and the classes at community college are just as easy as high school classes. If you can't get a 3.5GPA from a community college, perhaps UCLA/UVA is not the right place for you. Assuming you spend at least 8 hours of studying time outside of the classroom, it is impossible not to get a 3.5GPA from community college.

Getting a 3.2 GPA from UCLA is different than a 3.2 GPA at a community college. You can't compare that. Of course, it is harder at UCLA than community college.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@jangotango ... looks like you got a lot of good advice here. I will mention something that I didn't see discussed ... maybe @clout did. Work for someone vs work for yourself (own business). Obviously you always work for someone ... employer or customer.

When I joined a tennis club ... around age 30 ... I met a lot of successful/wealthy members that owned their own businesses. Everything from Veterinarians, construction companies, oil and gas, etc. One of the wealthiest owned his business, the building with his name on it, and never went to college. No doubt there is a high failure rate with small business startups, and trade offs between 8-5 vs living at your business at least during early days. But I ran into these guys when they were successful, and the reward was much flexibility with their time. If they wanted to play golf on a weekday, they did.

I should have at least asked that question when I was starting out. Also ... I second the advice on picking something that won't be outsourced ... or replaced by technology.

Good luck

 

[Harry_Wild]

...trade offs between 8-5 vs living at your business at least during early days. But I ran into these guys when they were successful, and the reward was much flexibility with their time. If they wanted to play golf on a weekday, they did.

As with any business startup, you have to build the business from scratch and it usually yourself only at the start. If you are successful in your business, you can start other businesses with much less work because you know the steps already and can hire experts to do the steps that you had to do yourself. Managing a business after it is successful takes much less time because you just make decisions and usually not involve with the daily operations of the business other then to wine and dine big clients and ask for their business.

 

[bobleenov1963]

As with any business startup, you have to build the business from scratch and it usually yourself only at the start. If you are successful in your business, you can start other businesses with much less work because you know the steps already and can hire experts to do the steps that you had to do yourself. Managing a business after it is successful takes much less time because you just make decisions and usually not involve with the daily operations of the business other then to wine and dine big clients and ask for their business.

It takes a special person to start a successful business. It is a very hard thing to do. According to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, about 20% of U.S. small businesses fail within the first year. By the end of their fifth year, roughly 50% have faltered. After 10 years, only around a third of businesses have survived. It takes many years and countless hours to have a profitable business. It is very similar like watching Novak Djokovic spank Nadal at the 2019 AO final and he made it look easy. People forget that Djokovic put in countless hours of training to get there. Running a business is no different

I had an IT consulting business twenty years ago and after doing it for three years, I gave it up. There are so many things to running a business beside doing IT work and I am just not the person to do that. I sold the business to another company and broke even on the deal. I was very lucky because many did not.

 

[sureshs]

I second the advice on picking something that won't be outsourced ... or replaced by technology.

Hopefully not everyone will follow your advice, because then no one will enter technology. That would only mean that the rest of the world will overtake.

 

[RiverRat]

I highly recommend doing a study abroad program, especially if you can go for a full school year. It gives you a better understanding not only of the outside world but also of America itself. It also teaches you how to adapt to new environments and get along with people from very different backgrounds, which is very useful.

I'm not vouching for any study abroad program but want to echo that living abroad really provides a great deal of perspective for understanding America. I would think that much of the experience would be muted were one tethered to an American university program with all of those other Americans though. I lived in Italy for a year after college at a university designed to bring Africans, Middle-Easterners, Greeks, Asians, and others together and teach us enough Italian and Italian history (very important to Italians) before matriculating into the free university. I roomed with an Italian law student and avoided other Americans like the plague. It was a life-changing experience but I wouldn't have wanted to be distracted by college education, in addition to learning the language and the culture.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hopefully not everyone will follow your advice, because then no one will enter technology. That would only mean that the rest of the world will overtake.

No worries ... even our dog doesn't listen to me. btw ... if we are this angry on top we will be a very dangerous #2.

 

[Harry_Wild]

It is very similar like watching Novak Djokovic spank Nadal at the 2019 AO final and he made it look easy.

Rafa 2020 French Open 1st set 6-0 against Joker!

 

[NonP]

Are you jokers actually trying to give advice the OP could use or just regurgitating your (mostly uninteresting) life story? I understand some level of narcissism and nostalgia is unavoidable in this kind of thread, but still.

Two cases in point:

@jangotango ... looks like you got a lot of good advice here. I will mention something that I didn't see discussed ... maybe @clout did. Work for someone vs work for yourself (own business). Obviously you always work for someone ... employer or customer.

When I joined a tennis club ... around age 30 ... I met a lot of successful/wealthy members that owned their own businesses. Everything from Veterinarians, construction companies, oil and gas, etc. One of the wealthiest owned his business, the building with his name on it, and never went to college. No doubt there is a high failure rate with small business startups, and trade offs between 8-5 vs living at your business at least during early days. But I ran into these guys when they were successful, and the reward was much flexibility with their time. If they wanted to play golf on a weekday, they did.

I should have at least asked that question when I was starting out. Also ... I second the advice on picking something that won't be outsourced ... or replaced by technology.

Good luck

The OP is a teen gnashing his teeth about college applications and you're telling him to think about starting his own business? Talk about skipping the basics.

Entrepreneurship is indeed the best if not the only way to strike it rich if you don't come from an elite background, but you can't just assume that is the long-term goal of any prospective, current or former business major. I'm proof negative of that - just wanted to be able to pay my bills and save a little for retirement, never gave a hoot about being rich. A far more important concern for me was and remains having enough time left over for more serious pursuits.

It takes a special person to start a successful business. It is a very hard thing to do. According to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, about 20% of U.S. small businesses fail within the first year. By the end of their fifth year, roughly 50% have faltered. After 10 years, only around a third of businesses have survived. It takes many years and countless hours to have a profitable business. It is very similar like watching Novak Djokovic spank Nadal at the 2019 AO final and he made it look easy. People forget that Djokovic put in countless hours of training to get there. Running a business is no different

I had an IT consulting business twenty years ago and after doing it for three years, I gave it up. There are so many things to running a business beside doing IT work and I am just not the person to do that. I sold the business to another company and broke even on the deal. I was very lucky because many did not.

LOL, there you go again, assuming your upper-middle-class background somehow applies to everyone else. Well I've got some news for you: any small business that survives 10 years or more is almost by definition a success. Hell, I've got at least 2-3 clients who've been in business for just about that long with well over $1 million in revenue but would still like to sell or delegate their business sooner rather than later so they could start a new one or even (semi-)retire early. I guarantee you they will not consider their businesses failures when that time comes.

As someone who's spent most of his career as a freelancer myself and helped dozens of others get started I can say running a business isn't that complicated. Time-consuming at first, yes (actually make that all-consuming), but if you're still standing by the end of your 2nd year or so chances are you've got it made already. You just need to know what to take on yourself and what to outsource, and try not to cut corners unless absolutely necessary.

It takes an almost special talent to twist a 80% rate of survival and a 50% rate of success into commonplace failures just because the actual narrative doesn't jibe with your own, but you seem to have it. Maybe try to understand that not earning a six-figure salary isn't such a bad thing or that not every business expects to make a killing in the first three years if ever?

 

[spaceman_spiff]

I'm not vouching for any study abroad program but want to echo that living abroad really provides a great deal of perspective for understanding America. I would think that much of the experience would be muted were one tethered to an American university program with all of those other Americans though. I lived in Italy for a year after college at a university designed to bring Africans, Middle-Easterners, Greeks, Asians, and others together and teach us enough Italian and Italian history (very important to Italians) before matriculating into the free university. I roomed with an Italian law student and avoided other Americans like the plague. It was a life-changing experience but I wouldn't have wanted to be distracted by college education, in addition to learning the language and the culture.

Not everyone has the ability to get the necessary visa/permit to live abroad if they’re not a student, so it’s not a realistic option for a lot of people. Getting a student visa for a study abroad program is much more accessible.

Also, even when you go abroad with other students from your university, you still end up meeting people from other places who broaden your horizons. And even if you somehow don’t, just spending time in another country is more educational than spending another semester/year on campus.

 

[RiverRat]

Yeah, this is Italy. Visa, shmisa. It's part of the cultural experience. You stand in a line. Tell them you're enjoying your stay. They say you have to go. You say you want to stay. Show them you have money in your bank account. Praise Garibaldi. After 5 minutes they stamp your passport. This is one of the many things you learn when you go native. It's certainly not for everyone. Americans like certainty.

Not everyone has the ability to get the necessary visa/permit to live abroad if they’re not a student, so it’s not a realistic option for a lot of people. Getting a student visa for a study abroad program is much more accessible.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Yeah, this is Italy. Visa, shmisa. It's part of the cultural experience. You stand in a line. Tell them you're enjoying your stay. They say you have to go. You say you want to stay. Show them you have money in your bank account. Praise Garibaldi. After 5 minutes they stamp your passport. This is one of the many things you learn when you go native. It's certainly not for everyone. Americans like certainty.

Also, most Americans don’t like the idea of being an illegal immigrant.

I had a friend who overstayed his visa in college and just decided to live in Copenhagen for a year. I visited while he was there (I was studying in Helsinki at the time), and even as a poor student myself, I didn’t really envy his life as an illegal immigrant.

Eventually, his mother threatened to drag him back home herself if he didn’t come back and finish his degree due to the amount of debt she took on to help him pay for his education.

 

[RiverRat]

Are you jokers actually trying to give advice the OP could use or just regurgitating your (mostly uninteresting) life story? I understand some level of narcissism and nostalgia is unavoidable in this kind of thread, but still.

Although you didn't call me out, I'm guilty of waxing nostalgic. I hope the OP realizes from all that has been said by many that there are many paths, and all of them are fruitful. The mere fact that he is "gnashing his teeth" shows he has, no doubt, what it takes. I can almost recall having this exact conversation with a 48 year old when I was 23, leaving college and getting ready to start my working life.

I share your revulsion at some of the privilege on this forum, masquerading as good ole American gumption. I grew up in a single parent family receiving free lunches and other forms of government aid. I'm not going to go into details but I know that none of this was because of any shortcoming on my mother's part. Still, our lack of privilege pales in comparison to what others in the world face. That was another incredible benefit to living abroad amongst others with truly uncertain futures.

 

[RiverRat]

Also, most Americans don’t like the idea of being an illegal immigrant.

I was never illegal.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

I was never illegal.

If you stayed for over 90 days within a 6 month period without a visa, then you were.

 

[RiverRat]

If you stayed for over 90 days within a 6 month period without a visa, then you were.

I went to the consulate and got my passport stamped. I wasn't. Countries have this thing called sovereignty. They decide who is legal and illegal, not you.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

I went to the consulate and got my passport stamped. I wasn't. Countries have this thing called sovereignty. They decide who is legal and illegal, not you.

The laws in the EU state that US citizens can stay up to 90 days within a 6 month period without a visa. If you went to an Italian consulate and got a stamp in your passport that said you could stay longer, then you got yourself some sort of visa.

 

[RiverRat]

American assurance. You know better. They were there. I was there. You weren't. Yet, you sit behind your keyboard and tell us what happened. I won't be responding to your next, self-assured, uninformed, predictable response.

 

[NonP]

Also, most Americans don’t like the idea of being an illegal immigrant.

I had a friend who overstayed his visa in college and just decided to live in Copenhagen for a year. I visited while he was there (I was studying in Helsinki at the time), and even as a poor student myself, I didn’t really envy his life as an illegal immigrant.

Eventually, his mother threatened to drag him back home herself if he didn’t come back and finish his degree due to the amount of debt she took on to help him pay for his education.

First off, "illegal immigrant" has been considered offensive for years now. Use "undocumented immigrant" or, better yet, "foreign national" instead.

Second, I'm not sure why you're getting hung up on @RiverRat's or anyone's immigration status, especially when the person is no longer staying in the foreign territory.

And third, I'm glad you've enjoyed your time/life abroad but you also seem to have this tendency to speak for all expats whose experience may not mirror your own. Maybe consider the possibility that you may not know everything about the immigrant experience before mouthing off?

Although you didn't call me out, I'm guilty of waxing nostalgic. I hope the OP realizes from all that has been said by many that there are many paths, and all of them are fruitful. The mere fact that he is "gnashing his teeth" shows he has, no doubt, what it takes. I can almost recall having this exact conversation with a 48 year old when I was 23, leaving college and getting ready to start my working life.

I share your revulsion at some of the privilege on this forum, masquerading as good ole American gumption. I grew up in a single parent family receiving free lunches and other forms of government aid. I'm not going to go into details but I know that none of this was because of any shortcoming on my mother's part. Still, our lack of privilege pales in comparison to what others in the world face. That was another incredible benefit to living abroad amongst others with truly uncertain futures.

The OP should discard most of the "advice" dispensed here (aka reminiscing to oneself about good/bad experiences without checking to see if others would be interested). In reality life always throws us curveballs and almost never turns out the way you expect. Just be realistic about your chances, and know your strengths and weaknesses. As long as he keeps that in mind an average teen like him should be fine.

And yeah, this kind of thread tends to become a bad parody of overprivileged tennis households that have no clue how removed their social standing is from the world's average middle class. I mean to think hitting a country club to rub shoulders with high society would be practical for anyone but the already connected, LOL. I actually live in NOVA myself and shudder to think what this increasingly blue, liberal cohort really believes about the poor and the working class.

 

[FRV4]

First off, "illegal immigrant" has been considered offensive for years now. Use "undocumented immigrant" or, better yet, "foreign national" instead.

Second, I'm not sure why you're getting hung up on @RiverRat's or anyone's immigration status, especially when the person is no longer staying in the foreign territory.

And third, I'm glad you've enjoyed your time/life abroad but you also seem to have this tendency to speak for all expats whose experience may not mirror your own. Maybe consider the possibility that you may not know everything about the immigrant experience before mouthing off?



The OP should discard most of the "advice" dispensed here (aka reminiscing to oneself about good/bad experiences without checking to see if others would be interested). In reality life always throws us curveballs and almost never turns out the way you expect. Just be realistic about your chances, and know your strengths and weaknesses. As long as he keeps that in mind an average teen like him should be fine.

And yeah, this kind of thread tends to become a bad parody of overprivileged tennis households that have no clue how removed their social standing is from the world's average middle class. I mean to think hitting a country club to rub shoulders with high society would be practical for anyone but the already connected, LOL. I actually live in NOVA myself and shudder to think what this increasingly blue, liberal cohort really believes about the poor and the working class.

We are just conversing with another

Edit: Should’ve quoted your post before this one. I’m on my phone and don’t know how to change it easily

 

[spaceman_spiff]

American assurance. You know better. They were there. I was there. You weren't. Yet, you sit behind your keyboard and tell us what happened. I won't be responding to your next, self-assured, uninformed, predictable response.

I’m just using simple logic combined with my own experience of living in two EU countries and visiting several more over the past 20 years.

You said that you went to a consulate and they put a stamp in your passport that allowed you to legally stay longer than the standard 90-day allowance. By definition such a stamp would either be some sort of visa or a residence permit (called indefinite leave to remain in the UK).

Regardless of what you want to call it, you had to go get permission from the Italian government to stay in the country for more than 90 days, and you did that by showing that you have enough money to support yourself for an extended period presumably without working (going there to work would require a work visa). That goes back to my original point about it not being an option for a lot of people, because not everyone has that much money saved up.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

First off, "illegal immigrant" has been considered offensive for years now. Use "undocumented immigrant" or, better yet, "foreign national" instead.

Second, I'm not sure why you're getting hung up on @RiverRat's or anyone's immigration status, especially when the person is no longer staying in the foreign territory.

And third, I'm glad you've enjoyed your time/life abroad but you also seem to have this tendency to speak for all expats whose experience may not mirror your own. Maybe consider the possibility that you may not know everything about the immigrant experience before mouthing off?

Yes, I know it’s a derogatory term. I’m using it to make a point.

@RiverRat suggested that you could easily live in a place like Italy without getting a visa. I just want to make it clear to anyone who isn’t familiar with EU immigration laws that this isn’t the case for American citizens. If you stay for more than 90 days without getting permission (e.g., a visa), then that would mean you are breaking their immigration laws. I used the term “illegal immigrant,” because I know what kind of images that would conjure up for Americans and would hopefully make people think twice before doing it.

As it turns out, @RiverRat did get permission. He doesn’t want to call it a visa, but he did go through the process of getting some sort of official documentation stating that he had the right to stay for more than 90 days. I just don’t want others mistakenly thinking that they can go to Europe and stay as long as they like without doing the same.

Finally, I never claimed to know everything about the immigrant experience. But, I have experience going abroad as a student (spending 3 semesters in Helsinki and St. Petersburg), a short-term expat (2 years working in Moscow), and long-term immigrant (coming up on 15 years in England next week). I’ve also had a close personal friend from my hometown who spent time in France, Germany, and Denmark and have known a number of other Americans living in the places I’ve lived.

I’m just trying to share some of what I’ve learned and clarify anything that seems misleading.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Raspberry Falls is hardly a "public" course. It's a "user-fee" course, and expensive.

Raspberry is listed on its website as accessible to the public to play there. Whether you can afford it is another issue. I play there multiple times even though I am not a member there.

If that's your benchmark then one can afford a private tennis club for the same money. I know there are accomplished people on the public tennis courts where I live, decision-makers who don't have to shell out $100 to play on a Saturday afternoon, partners at Jones Day, chiefs of staff, World Bank vice-presidents, Washington Post journalists, and the list goes on. I don't know why you have to insist that golf is a better sport for making connections, but I'm glad you think so. Leaves more tennis courts open for me.

You said you live in NOVA and I don't know where you live. I live in Potomac MD and my sisters live in Langley VA. I have not seen any accomplished people on public tennis courts in the past twenty years at Potomac or Langley, even though public tennis courts here in both Fairfax and Montgomery counties are just as good as private tennis courts. Accomplished people don't play on public tennis courts for a variety reasons but it mainly has to do with personal security. Maybe those accomplished people are not as "accomplished" as you think they are

Hell, I've got at least 2-3 clients who've been in business for just about that long with well over $1 million in revenue but would still like to sell or delegate their business sooner rather than later so they could start a new one or even (semi-)retire early. I guarantee you they will not consider their businesses failures when that time comes.

As someone who's spent most of his career as a freelancer myself and helped dozens of others get started I can say running a business isn't that complicated. Time-consuming at first, yes (actually make that all-consuming), but if you're still standing by the end of your 2nd year or so chances are you've got it made already. You just need to know what to take on yourself and what to outsource, and try not to cut corners unless absolutely necessary.

It takes an almost special talent to twist a 80% rate of survival and a 50% rate of success into commonplace failures just because the actual narrative doesn't jibe with your own, but you seem to have it. Maybe try to understand that not earning a six-figure salary isn't such a bad thing or that not every business expects to make a killing in the first three years if ever?

1M in revenue is not that much when you have to pay the vendors, rent office space, worker comp, health/dental insurance, taxes, 401K matching. this is very true especially in IT consulting. That's why running a profitable business is very difficult. You must be "high" if you think running a profitable business is easy.

I share your revulsion at some of the privilege on this forum, masquerading as good ole American gumption. I grew up in a single parent family receiving free lunches and other forms of government aid. I'm not going to go into details but I know that none of this was because of any shortcoming on my mother's part. Still, our lack of privilege pales in comparison to what others in the world face. That was another incredible benefit to living abroad amongst others with truly uncertain futures.

What is wrong with privilege? You grew up in a single parent home and I grew up in a two parents home, so what?

And yeah, this kind of thread tends to become a bad parody of overprivileged tennis households that have no clue how removed their social standing is from the world's average middle class. I mean to think hitting a country club to rub shoulders with high society would be practical for anyone but the already connected, LOL. I actually live in NOVA myself and shudder to think what this increasingly blue, liberal cohort really believes about the poor and the working class.

You have no idea how capitalism work, don't you? If you work hard with your tennis or golf game and become good at it, you will get invited to play at country to rub shoulders with high society. Wealthy people will find you and they will give you what you want. There are lot of kids from middle class or lower middle class families who get a first class education for free at elite private schools like Sidwell, Bullis, Landon. Everyone has to pay almost 50K/year in tuition but for those kids, it is free. Do you know why? Because they are good at something that the schools want to recruit them and offer them an expensive education for FREE.

Dwayne Haskins was released by the Washing Football Team on Monday. He was paid a handsome, almost 15M, as the 15th pick in the '19 NFL draft. Do you know why he was picked that high in the draft even though everyone said he should be picked in the 2nd or 3rd round? Haskins was picked so high because he attended Bullis school in Potomac Maryland, where the Washington FT owner's son, Dan Snyder, also attended. Even when Haskins was still high school, he was invited to attend Washington games in the skybox with the owner and his son. That's how networking works. Granted it didn't work out for Haskins in 2020 but he got 15M in guarantee money.

Btw, Virginia has been trending blue for that past ten years. Democrat has finally controlled the VA governor, lt. governor, and both the house and senate. This is because NOVA has been trending blue due to many highly educated people come to NOVA for high paying jobs. NOVA is account for almost 50% of the population in VA. You should move somewhere else because the Dems is already taking over Virginia politics.

 

[NonP]

We are just conversing with another

So am I. The only difference is that I happen to be rather feisty!

Edit: Should’ve quoted your post before this one. I’m on my phone and don’t know how to change it easily

There's an easy solution: use a good old-fashioned keyboard instead.

Yes, I know it’s a derogatory term. I’m using it to make a point.

@RiverRat suggested that you could easily live in a place like Italy without getting a visa. I just want to make it clear to anyone who isn’t familiar with EU immigration laws that this isn’t the case for American citizens. If you stay for more than 90 days without getting permission (e.g., a visa), then that would mean you are breaking their immigration laws. I used the term “illegal immigrant,” because I know what kind of images that would conjure up for Americans and would hopefully make people think twice before doing it.

As it turns out, @RiverRat did get permission. He doesn’t want to call it a visa, but he did go through the process of getting some sort of official documentation stating that he had the right to stay for more than 90 days. I just don’t want others mistakenly thinking that they can go to Europe and stay as long as they like without doing the same.

Finally, I never claimed to know everything about the immigrant experience. But, I have experience going abroad as a student (spending 3 semesters in Helsinki and St. Petersburg), a short-term expat (2 years working in Moscow), and long-term immigrant (coming up on 15 years in England next week). I’ve also had a close personal friend from my hometown who spent time in France, Germany, and Denmark and have known a number of other Americans living in the places I’ve lived.

I’m just trying to share some of what I’ve learned and clarify anything that seems misleading.

Well, using a derogatory term to drive home a point doesn't make it all that much better in my book, but gotcha.

From what I see you read more into @RiverRat's admittedly somewhat flippant comment than was warranted. He says he got his passport stamped and Italy like several other countries is rather lax about the rules (which BTW is very true from an American perspective). What's the BFD?

And I'm just giving you my take on your posting history re: your experiences as an exchange student/expat/immigrant. None of us are immune to generalizing and I'm prone to it myself, but I try to limit my perspectives to America and East Asia whereas I've seen you offer grand examinations of Russia, Britain and now the EU at large. In truth few of us are qualified to comment on the workings of one country, let alone an entire continent.

1M in revenue is not that much when you have to pay the vendors, rent office space, worker comp, health/dental insurance, taxes, 401K matching. this is very true especially in IT consulting. That's why running a profitable business is very difficult. You must be "high" if you think running a profitable business is easy.

I never said running a profitable business is easy. I simply said your claim that it "takes a special person to start a successful business" is nonsense, as your own source demonstrates.

And I know $1-2 million ain't all that much after all the expenses, but we're still talking a net income in the $300-500k range. That's successful by almost all measures, and like I said for 10-ish years and counting.

What is wrong with privilege? You grew up in a single parent home and I grew up in a two parents home, so what?

It becomes a problem when the privileged fail to recognize or acknowledge that it takes more than hard work to attain their social standing, and you're almost a walking parody of that failure.

You have no idea how capitalism work, don't you? If you work hard with your tennis or golf game and become good at it, you will get invited to play at country to rub shoulders with high society. Wealthy people will find you and they will give you what you want. There are lot of kids from middle class or lower middle class families who get a first class education for free at elite private schools like Sidwell, Bullis, Landon. Everyone has to pay almost 50K/year in tuition but for those kids, it is free. Do you know why? Because they are good at something that the schools want to recruit them and offer them an expensive education for FREE.

Dwayne Haskins was released by the Washing Football Team on Monday. He was paid a handsome, almost 15M, as the 15th pick in the '19 NFL draft. Do you know why he was picked that high in the draft even though everyone said he should be picked in the 2nd or 3rd round? Haskins was picked so high because he attended Bullis school in Potomac Maryland, where the Washington FT owner's son, Dan Snyder, also attended. Even when Haskins was still high school, he was invited to attend Washington games in the skybox with the owner and his son. That's how networking works. Granted it didn't work out for Haskins in 2020 but he got 15M in guarantee money.

Btw, Virginia has been trending blue for that past ten years. Democrat has finally controlled the VA governor, lt. governor, and both the house and senate. This is because NOVA has been trending blue due to many highly educated people come to NOVA for high paying jobs. NOVA is account for almost 50% of the population in VA. You should move somewhere else because the Dems is already taking over Virginia politics.

Man you really can't be this obtuse.... Look, you're just telling us how to buy one's way to the highest social ladder, and I'm telling you such opportunities aren't available to most people in the world nor is it desirable to attain such status. Are you really so enamored with your current cushy environment you can't even imagine what the lower classes have to deal with every day? You know, the very humble origins you claim to have risen from?

And I'm perfectly fine with living among people who don't fear progress, thank you very much. You live your life and I'll live mine.

 

[bobleenov1963]

I never said running a profitable business is easy. I simply said your claim that it "takes a special person to start a successful business" is nonsense, as your own source demonstrates.

And I know $1-2 million ain't all that much after all the expenses, but we're still talking a net income in the $300-500k range. That's successful by almost all measures, and like I said for 10-ish years and counting.

did you read my post before spewing your nonsense? I broke even when I sold my business. In other words, my business was never successful. With a net income of 300-500K, my 8am-5pm is already paying me that much, with 401K matching and health/dental insurance, I don't need to run a business. Btw, your 300-500K is before tax, 401K, health/dental, workman comp, etc...

Man you really can't be this obtuse.... Look, you're just telling us how to buy one's way to the highest social ladder, and I'm telling you such opportunities aren't available to most people in the world nor is it desirable to attain such status. Are you really so enamored with your current cushy environment you can't even imagine what the lower classes have to deal with every day? You know, the very humble origins you claim to have risen from?

Does the name Dwayne Haskins mean anything to you? That proves that you're wrong. Opportunities are everywhere in the US, no matter where you come from.

 

[FRV4]

Does the name Dwayne Haskins mean anything to you? That proves that you're wrong. Opportunities are everywhere in the US, no matter where you come from.

Bruh...

 

[FRV4]

So am I. The only difference is that I happen to be rather feisty!



There's an easy solution: use a good old-fashioned keyboard instead.



Well, using a derogatory term to drive home a point doesn't make it all that much better in my book, but gotcha.

From what I see you read more into @RiverRat's admittedly somewhat flippant comment than was warranted. He says he got his passport stamped and Italy like several other countries is rather lax about the rules (which BTW is very true from an American perspective). What's the BFD?

And I'm just giving you my take on your posting history re: your experiences as an exchange student/expat/immigrant. None of us are immune to generalizing and I'm prone to it myself, but I try to limit my perspectives to America and East Asia whereas I've seen you offer grand examinations of Russia, Britain and now the EU at large. In truth few of us are qualified to comment on the workings of one country, let alone an entire continent.



I never said running a profitable business is easy. I simply said your claim that it "takes a special person to start a successful business" is nonsense, as your own source demonstrates.

And I know $1-2 million ain't all that much after all the expenses, but we're still talking a net income in the $300-500k range. That's successful by almost all measures, and like I said for 10-ish years and counting.



It becomes a problem when the privileged fail to recognize or acknowledge that it takes more than hard work to attain their social standing, and you're almost a walking parody of that failure.



Man you really can't be this obtuse.... Look, you're just telling us how to buy one's way to the highest social ladder, and I'm telling you such opportunities aren't available to most people in the world nor is it desirable to attain such status. Are you really so enamored with your current cushy environment you can't even imagine what the lower classes have to deal with every day? You know, the very humble origins you claim to have risen from?

And I'm perfectly fine with living among people who don't fear progress, thank you very much. You live your life and I'll live mine.

I am liking your reply to my post. I am at work right now and have not read the rest of it.

 

[RiverRat]

You said you live in NOVA and I don't know where you live. Accomplished people don't play on public tennis courts for a variety reasons but it mainly has to do with personal security. Maybe those accomplished people are not as "accomplished" as you think they are


What is wrong with privilege? You grew up in a single parent home and I grew up in a two parents home, so what?

OK, bobblehead. I'll give you what you want (or deserve), one scathing rebuke and be done with your drivel. I'm tired of hijacking this thread.

Maybe you can't find accomplished people on the public courts because your personality repels them. I live in a comparably affluent county but without all the pretensions you radiate. But if it's not your personality that drives others away, it might be your lack of accomplishment that simply doesn't attract them. You are such a great networker, it's incomprehensible you can't meet accomplished people on the public tennis courts or find one of those 9 companies, which hired you because of your connections, that wants to keep you or you them.

As for privilege, there is nothing wrong with it. But there is certainly something wrong with not recognizing it. You live in your world of connections, and I'll happy live in my world of merit. I'll count friends among the privileged and the less privileged. You go to your country clubs where others see you as inadequate (the way obviously see yourself) and stuff that empty hole inside with caviar for all I care. Good luck! Good-bye!

 

[ByeByePoly]

Are you jokers actually trying to give advice the OP could use or just regurgitating your (mostly uninteresting) life story? I understand some level of narcissism and nostalgia is unavoidable in this kind of thread, but still.

Two cases in point:



The OP is a teen gnashing his teeth about college applications and you're telling him to think about starting his own business? Talk about skipping the basics.

Entrepreneurship is indeed the best if not the only way to strike it rich if you don't come from an elite background, but you can't just assume that is the long-term goal of any prospective, current or former business major. I'm proof negative of that - just wanted to be able to pay my bills and save a little for retirement, never gave a hoot about being rich. A far more important concern for me was and remains having enough time left over for more serious pursuits.



LOL, there you go again, assuming your upper-middle-class background somehow applies to everyone else. Well I've got some news for you: any small business that survives 10 years or more is almost by definition a success. Hell, I've got at least 2-3 clients who've been in business for just about that long with well over $1 million in revenue but would still like to sell or delegate their business sooner rather than later so they could start a new one or even (semi-)retire early. I guarantee you they will not consider their businesses failures when that time comes.

As someone who's spent most of his career as a freelancer myself and helped dozens of others get started I can say running a business isn't that complicated. Time-consuming at first, yes (actually make that all-consuming), but if you're still standing by the end of your 2nd year or so chances are you've got it made already. You just need to know what to take on yourself and what to outsource, and try not to cut corners unless absolutely necessary.

It takes an almost special talent to twist a 80% rate of survival and a 50% rate of success into commonplace failures just because the actual narrative doesn't jibe with your own, but you seem to have it. Maybe try to understand that not earning a six-figure salary isn't such a bad thing or that not every business expects to make a killing in the first three years if ever?

I have no idea why you would go off on my uninteresting narcissistic nostalgia ridden story ... but I will clarify for @jangotango :

Jango:

- we are all different, some thrive in a traditional employee environment, some do not. It seems like a good question for someone to ask themselves early, particularly if they will accumulate college debt, and lifetime hours spent at work.
- Non P took my post as "get rich ... you should think of it as "be happy". Actually ... happy as possible, I'm convinced only a few lucky ones love their jobs. The big thing to avoid is "hating your job"
- don't let anyone tell you that you need " college education" to mature or become a well rounded human ... think for yourself.
- none of this is anti-college degree ... I have two of them.

 

[BarNotchky]

So am I. The only difference is that I happen to be rather feisty!

Understatement of the year. Anyway, I like it. Makes threads more interesting.

Hopefully OP got what he wanted or gave up on this thread as he hasn't been seen in it for several days. Smart fella, I think he'll do alright.

 

[NonP]

did you read my post before spewing your nonsense? I broke even when I sold my business. In other words, my business was never successful. With a net income of 300-500K, my 8am-5pm is already paying me that much, with 401K matching and health/dental insurance, I don't need to run a business. Btw, your 300-500K is before tax, 401K, health/dental, workman comp, etc...

I read your nonsensical post, yes, and it remains nonsensical. Again your sole example is up against literally dozens I've seen firsthand and the BLS data you yourself cited, so yes, I still say your post is nonsense.

And FYI "net income" usually comes after the employee benefits and insurance are deducted, so you know even less about "capitalism" than you think you do.

Does the name Dwayne Haskins mean anything to you? That proves that you're wrong. Opportunities are everywhere in the US, no matter where you come from.

LOL you really are hopeless. No, for the umpteenth time a few exceptions here and there don't prove anything, and the vast body of sociological research is unmistakable on the matter of upward mobility in America which ain't what it's cracked up to be. I'll listen to the scholars and academics rather than a random blowhard on the internet, thanks.

I have no idea why you would go off on my uninteresting narcissistic nostalgia ridden story ... but I will clarify for @jangotango :

Jango:

- we are all different, some thrive in a traditional employee environment, some do not. It seems like a good question for someone to ask themselves early, particularly if they will accumulate college debt, and lifetime hours spent at work.
- Non P took my post as "get rich ... you should think of it as "be happy". Actually ... happy as possible, I'm convinced only a few lucky ones love their jobs. The big thing to avoid is "hating your job"
- don't let anyone tell you that you need " college education" to mature or become a well rounded human ... think for yourself.
- none of this is anti-college degree ... I have two of them.

Got no issue with any of this. I just don't think advising a high school kid to consider going solo when he's fretting over the college admission process is all that helpful.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Well, using a derogatory term to drive home a point doesn't make it all that much better in my book, but gotcha.

From what I see you read more into @RiverRat's admittedly somewhat flippant comment than was warranted. He says he got his passport stamped and Italy like several other countries is rather lax about the rules (which BTW is very true from an American perspective). What's the BFD?

And I'm just giving you my take on your posting history re: your experiences as an exchange student/expat/immigrant. None of us are immune to generalizing and I'm prone to it myself, but I try to limit my perspectives to America and East Asia whereas I've seen you offer grand examinations of Russia, Britain and now the EU at large. In truth few of us are qualified to comment on the workings of one country, let alone an entire continent.

The BFD is that he initially suggested something that is technically illegal without making it clear that he did not do the very thing he suggested. It would be like me saying that anyone can drive in America without getting a license and I did so myself, only to go on to say that I went to the DMV and had to take a test in order to get a card with my picture on it that says I can legally drive. The first statement is misleading and could get an unsuspecting person into trouble if they follow my advice without realising that what I described in the second statement is the process of getting a license.

As for my posting history, the reason that I’ve posted about Russia, Britain, and the EU is because I have firsthand experience there. My first experience living abroad was in Finland (part of the EU), my second and third experiences were in Russia, and I’ve spent the last 15 years living in the UK (which was part of the EU until recently). I have also done some job hunting in other EU countries with an eye on moving, so I’ve had to look at their immigration laws to see what my options were as an American citizen. As it turns out, the immigration laws in the EU countries I’ve checked out (including Italy) are pretty similar, which isn’t surprising for such a political union.

 

[yossarian]

Dwayne Haskins was always projected to go in the first round, by the way. Networking wasn’t the reason he went to the (name redacted) team

And some people believe that low income kids shouldn’t have to possess otherworldly talent or skill in order to afford a high quality education and move up in the world. Shocking, I know

 

[RiverRat]

The BFD is that he initially suggested something that is technically illegal without making it clear that he did not do the very thing he suggested.

Yeah, this is Italy. Visa, shmisa. It's part of the cultural experience. You stand in a line. Tell them you're enjoying your stay. They say you have to go. You say you want to stay. Show them you have money in your bank account. Praise Garibaldi. After 5 minutes they stamp your passport. This is one of the many things you learn when you go native. It's certainly not for everyone. Americans like certainty.

Hey, I was clear from the get go. I never suggested doing anything illegal. I told you that as well. Still, you persisted. I let it go the first time, now you insist on proving yourself right again. Let it go. You were wrong. BTW, it wasn't a Visa as you insist in your efforts to prove yourself right. Pathetic!

 

[NonP]

The BFD is that he initially suggested something that is technically illegal without making it clear that he did not do the very thing he suggested. It would be like me saying that anyone can drive in America without getting a license and I did so myself, only to go on to say that I went to the DMV and had to take a test in order to get a card with my picture on it that says I can legally drive. The first statement is misleading and could get an unsuspecting person into trouble if they follow my advice without realising that what I described in the second statement is the process of getting a license.

This strikes me as a reach, but at least your intentions were good enough.

As for my posting history, the reason that I’ve posted about Russia, Britain, and the EU is because I have firsthand experience there. My first experience living abroad was in Finland (part of the EU), my second and third experiences were in Russia, and I’ve spent the last 15 years living in the UK (which was part of the EU until recently). I have also done some job hunting in other EU countries with an eye on moving, so I’ve had to look at their immigration laws to see what my options were as an American citizen. As it turns out, the immigration laws in the EU countries I’ve checked out (including Italy) are pretty similar, which isn’t surprising for such a political union.

Forgive me for being blunt but isn't it rather presumptuous to think you know all about the legal and social apparatus of such yuge territories as Russia and the EU after living in a small part of each only for a handful of years? I do give more credence to your knowledge of British customs, but even here the Scottish Highlands are rather different socially, culturally and economically from Greater London.

I know for a fact that law/policy enforcement in (South) Korea is nowhere near as strict as in the US, and from my limited experience China is in the same (most likely worse) boat. (The one exception in East Asia is Japan.) So when @RiverRat says Italy is similar in that respect I tend to believe him, especially since my Italian friends and colleagues have suggested as much in our conversations. You don't at least with respect to this particular case, and you may well be right. It's still not worth raising a fuss over if you ask me, since you two at least agree that you can't just stay in the country indefinitely without proper documentation.

 

[sureshs]

OK, bobblehead. I'll give you what you want (or deserve), one scathing rebuke and be done with your drivel. I'm tired of hijacking this thread.

Maybe you can't find accomplished people on the public courts because your personality repels them. I live in a comparably affluent county but without all the pretensions you radiate. But if it's not your personality that drives others away, it might be your lack of accomplishment that simply doesn't attract them. You are such a great networker, it's incomprehensible you can't meet accomplished people on the public tennis courts or find one of those 9 companies, which hired you because of your connections, that wants to keep you or you them.

As for privilege, there is nothing wrong with it. But there is certainly something wrong with not recognizing it. You live in your world of connections, and I'll happy live in my world of merit. I'll count friends among the privileged and the less privileged. You go to your country clubs where others see you as inadequate (the way obviously see yourself) and stuff that empty hole inside with caviar for all I care. Good luck! Good-bye!

Affluent people don't usually play on public courts. The most affluent and well-connected tennis people I have met have been at a tennis resort here, where I am sometimes invited by the pro shop if they are trying to find a person to match a guest with.

If you have money, you don't want to park your Bentley in a public lot, walk in fine clothes in the evening near a broken-down middle school to get to the courts. You want to be able to go a great restroom, not a dirty public toilet. You want to take a shower afterwards and a massage in the spa. So many reasons.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Dwayne Haskins was always projected to go in the first round, by the way. Networking wasn’t the reason he went to the (name redacted) team

And some people believe that low income kids shouldn’t have to possess otherworldly talent or skill in order to afford a high quality education and move up in the world. Shocking, I know

You need to do more research. Jay Gruden didn't want to draft Haskins but he was forced into it by the team owner. That's well known fact.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I read your nonsensical post, yes, and it remains nonsensical. Again your sole example is up against literally dozens I've seen firsthand and the BLS data you yourself cited, so yes, I still say your post is nonsense.

And FYI "net income" usually comes after the employee benefits and insurance are deducted, so you know even less about "capitalism" than you think you do.



LOL you really are hopeless. No, for the umpteenth time a few exceptions here and there don't prove anything, and the vast body of sociological research is unmistakable on the matter of upward mobility in America which ain't what it's cracked up to be. I'll listen to the scholars and academics rather than a random blowhard on the internet, thanks.



Got no issue with any of this. I just don't think advising a high school kid to consider going solo when he's fretting over the college admission process is all that helpful.

What better time to consider one's own personality and interests than at the point of college commitment? "Go solo" is defining my suggestion too narrowly. Perhaps one decides they want to end up as entrepreneur, but wants a college degree regardless. At a minimum, that might change the college and degree choice. It might mean working in an industry/trade instead of going to college, and "go solo" later debt free, with accumulated business knowledge WAY more valuable than your college Sociology class. It might mean ... Tango examined his inner being and nothing excites him more than working 60 hours a week for an a..ss..ho!e boss. Like I said ... we are all different. Our head tennis pro studied engineering in college ... later figured out what made him happy was running a tennis club and teaching tennis.

 

[yossarian]

You need to do more research. Jay Gruden didn't want to draft Haskins but he was forced into it by the team owner. That's well known fact.

You ignored my point. He was always projected as a top 10 pick. Saying that he was supposed to go in the 2nd or 3rd round and magically jumped to the first due to networking is a lie

2nd part of my original comment was the more important one, too

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Hey, I was clear from the get go. I never suggested doing anything illegal. I told you that as well. Still, you persisted. I let it go the first time, now you insist on proving yourself right again. Let it go. You were wrong. BTW, it wasn't a Visa as you insist in your efforts to prove yourself right. Pathetic!

Ok, what was it called, then?

I said not everyone can get the necessary visa/permit to move to another country. After mentioning Italy, you said “visa, shmisa.” What followed suggested that you were able to enter the country without any special permission and then talk immigration officials at a consulate into giving you a permit to stay longer even after you had exceeded the standard 90 day limit.

Staying over the 90 days without first having a permit of some kind is technically illegal from what I know, and getting a special stamp that gives you special permission to stay longer is, by definition, a permit. So to me, it looks like you suggested something illegal and then described the very thing I mentioned (i.e., getting the appropriate visa/permit to stay longer).

Anyway, I’d advise people against trying to move to another country without getting the appropriate documentation beforehand.