2hbh detail... open face on backswing?

N

nyta2

Hall of Fame
originally i thought it was just an idiosyncrasy (see hewitt vid below).... so ignored it for years...
but recently i occasionally get to play a kid (utr11) that has that specific backswing... his favorite/best shot is his 2hbh flat dtl...
i was asking his dad about his son's 2hbh, and surprisingly dad said that his son's coach specifically taught that take back
reminds me of a golf swing.

you can see it here:

experimenting with it, it seems to give me more easy rhs/pace, but leaves getting the face to the right angle seems less consistent... but then again i haven't practiced it much... and if golfers do it, maybe it's something i should do...
currently i try to keep my face perpendicular

anyone else do this?
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
nyta2 said:
seems like you swap from vertical and open (last shots are clearly open)... did you do that intentionally? did someone teach you that? or did you copy it from someone?
Click to expand...
I’m essentially self taught. Never had to think much about my 2hb. It always felt natural (can’t say the same about my fh). Looking at vid, it’s less open on the ones where I have less time and have to make the loop more compact.

One time 30 years ago, Frank Brennan, a coach I respect a lot, suggested to me that I should use a low takeback so I’d have more spin. But I tried that and didn’t like it. I prefer having the extra potential energy from a takeback above the height of the contact point.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
nyta2 said:
originally i thought it was just an idiosyncrasy (see hewitt vid below).... so ignored it for years...
but recently i occasionally get to play a kid (utr11) that has that specific backswing... his favorite/best shot is his 2hbh flat dtl...
i was asking his dad about his son's 2hbh, and surprisingly dad said that his son's coach specifically taught that take back
reminds me of a golf swing.

you can see it here:

experimenting with it, it seems to give me more easy rhs/pace, but leaves getting the face to the right angle seems less consistent... but then again i haven't practiced it much... and if golfers do it, maybe it's something i should do...
currently i try to keep my face perpendicular

anyone else do this?
Click to expand...
Does he close the racket face on take back when he hits topspin or change his swing path instead?
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
nyta2 said:
originally i thought it was just an idiosyncrasy (see hewitt vid below).... so ignored it for years...
but recently i occasionally get to play a kid (utr11) that has that specific backswing... his favorite/best shot is his 2hbh flat dtl...
i was asking his dad about his son's 2hbh, and surprisingly dad said that his son's coach specifically taught that take back
reminds me of a golf swing.

you can see it here:

experimenting with it, it seems to give me more easy rhs/pace, but leaves getting the face to the right angle seems less consistent... but then again i haven't practiced it much... and if golfers do it, maybe it's something i should do...
currently i try to keep my face perpendicular

anyone else do this?
Click to expand...

It's a function of grip and swingpath, keep your wrists relaxed and the tip of the racquet outside of your hands in the take back. I prefer perpendicular or closed slightly, but the important thing is to be perpendicular at contact.

It's more likely for the face to be open on high balls you want to hit flat.

J
 
N

nyta2

Hall of Fame
J011yroger said:
It's a function of grip and swingpath, keep your wrists relaxed and the tip of the racquet outside of your hands in the take back. I prefer perpendicular or closed slightly, but the important thing is to be perpendicular at contact.

It's more likely for the face to be open on high balls you want to hit flat.

J
Click to expand...
but i've never heard of anyone explicitly teaching to open the face slightly on the take back...
 
Jay_The_Nomad

Jay_The_Nomad

Professional
Jim Courier was talking about this at the Aussie open during the Kyrgios /Thiem match. Seems like Kyrgios (and a few other pros) hit their 2hbackhands with a slightly opened racquet face.

the commentary team seems to think it’s more of a result of wanting to bunt the ball back rather than drive at it. Probably wouldn’t see djokovic hitting such a shot.
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
nyta2 said:
if i was, apologies... i stand corrected.
Click to expand...

You have more class than those guys ... has always been obvious. 8-B

I think it just naturally happened with me learning the 2hbh because the right arm did it’s 40+ year 1hbh thing ... bh slice and volley definitely sunny side up in backswing. Check out a McEnroe bh volley with rh behind his back ... sunny side up.

It seems funny to me that an open face in a 2hbh would be considered such a timing risk when you consider what is accepted as the gold standard flip FH. There you have pat the dog, esr, isr, pronation and washing a window or two into contact. And yet ... open face in 2hbh ... which btw facilitates a left arm pronation into contact ... is the thing of Cirque Sol Le. (talking about ttw brothers here in that thread 8-B )
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
ByeByePoly said:
You have more class than those guys ... has always been obvious. 8-B

I think it just naturally happened with me learning the 2hbh because the right arm did it’s 40+ year 1hbh thing ... bh slice and volley definitely sunny side up in backswing. Check out a McEnroe bh volley with rh behind his back ... sunny side up.

It seems funny to me that an open face in a 2hbh would be considered such a timing risk when you consider what is accepted as the gold standard flip FH. There you have pat the dog, esr, isr, pronation and washing a window or two into contact. And yet ... open face in 2hbh ... which btw facilitates a left arm pronation into contact ... is the thing of Cirque Sol Le. (talking about ttw brothers here in that thread 8-B )
Click to expand...

Explain how it facilitates left hand pronation into contact.

J
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
J011yroger said:
Explain how it facilitates left hand pronation into contact.

J
Click to expand...

Good timing for a Jolly post ... I’m taking a dump. :p

Don’t pirates have any imagination? If the right arm rolls back ... the left arm also rolls back due to that two hands on the racquet contract they signed up for. Left arm back is left arm supination OR left arm esr OR both. So to get back to square (or however close I get to square), left arm has to roll in left arm pronation/isr direction.

When you hit your lhfhs ... does your left arm just lay there?:p
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I think for a 2hb, the left elbow stays low, so the face naturally opens a little when you take it back to an elevated takeback.

The forehand, the elbow is higher because it is not constrained, and the higher elbow means the face naturally closes on the takeback.
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
nyta2 said:
used to have that... smashed all 3 of them... dumb kid!

i interpretted as "forearm rotation adding to the overall rhs"... at least that's what i guessing is a positive when i was playing with it..
Click to expand...

I wasn't even making the case it's a positive ... just pointing out we do it on a FH. If we manage to get square by contact with one hand ... two should even be easier (in theory 8-B).

That next Jolly post could be brutal ... but I'm ready in ttw split step position.
 
N

nyta2

Hall of Fame
travlerajm said:
I think for a 2hb, the left elbow stays low, so the face naturally opens a little when you take it back to an elevated takeback.

The forehand, the elbow is higher because it is not constrained, and the higher elbow means the face naturally closes on the takeback.
Click to expand...
ah yeah... didn't think about that... and jives with what jolly was saying about high backhands...
my typical waist-to-shoulder height 2hbh, i try to keep my hands low (waist height if can, but tip up), so my face is always perpendicular (or slightly closed)... maybe if i let my hands go higher (for a bigger loop), my face would open more naturally.
 
N

nyta2

Hall of Fame
ByeByePoly said:
I wasn't even making the case it's a positive ... just pointing out we do it on a FH. If we manage to get square by contact with one hand ... two should even be easier (in theory 8-B).

That next Jolly post could be brutal ... but I'm ready in ttw split step position.
Click to expand...
experimenting with it last night... when i time it right i can really tag it (feels like a golf swing... ie where i'm letting the left forearm release/crossover the right forearm)... but more often i missed (but i only did it for all of 30min so can't expect much)
in general, i brought this up because it was completely different from my mental model of the 2hbh (as i said before, i was aware of it, and dismissed as an idiosyncrasy.. but was surprised to hear that at least one high performance coaches explicitly teach it this way - which i saw successfully/lethally manifested in a 14y-utr11)
 
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ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
nyta2 said:
experimenting with it last night... when i time it right i can really tag it... but more often i missed (but obviously i did it for all of 30min so can't expect much)
in general, i brought this is because it was completely different from my mental model of the 2hbh (as i said before, i was aware of it, and dismissed as an idiosyncrasy.. but was surprised to hear that at least one high performance coaches explicitly teach it this way - which i saw successfully/lethally manifested in a 14y-utr11)
Click to expand...

When two former #1 players do it ... by definition it's a legit option. That is not the same as saying it's a good, or best option for a rec player. Probably pretty good proof it's an acceptable option (doesn't slow down learning curve) for a rec player is me learning a 2hbh in late 50s. I always had to work hard with a lot of reps to learn something new in tennis ... and my memory is the rf squaring at contact was good to go after first two weeks of launching balls into the park. 8-B

I would think it might matter if you were a square rf at contact type player, or someone who closes the rf at contact. I don't think I have ever hit a groundstroke with a closed rf (as far as I know), so I'm just attempting to get back to square (cont/east).
 
N

nyta2

Hall of Fame
Jay_The_Nomad said:
Jim Courier was talking about this at the Aussie open during the Kyrgios /Thiem match. Seems like Kyrgios (and a few other pros) hit their 2hbackhands with a slightly opened racquet face.

the commentary team seems to think it’s more of a result of wanting to bunt the ball back rather than drive at it. Probably wouldn’t see djokovic hitting such a shot.
Click to expand...
interesting... thx for sharing.
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Made me wonder ... do most ATP pros hit most 2hbhs strokes with closed face or square at contact. You would probably have to look at a lot of video, and it would be interesting if most do both (square and closed) depending on the shot, or do they tend to be one type or the other.

No doubt Nadal is closed rf, but Djokovic looks mostly square to me.



 
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N

nyta2

Hall of Fame
ByeByePoly said:
Made me wonder ... do most ATP pros hit most 2hbhs strokes with closed face or square. You would probably have to look at a lot of video, and it would be interesting if most do both (square and closed) depending on the shot, or do they tend to be one type or the other.

No doubt Nadal is closed rf, but Djokovic looks mostly square to me.



Click to expand...
given my other thread... my current thinking is that "it depends"

in general a guy like nadals seems to rely on heavy topspin to spin you off the court... but he's ok with long rallies to work the angles...
but guys like kyrgios seem to hurt their opponents with a flat "bunt" bh... (i think other guys like medvedev and de Minaur also hit this way), which seems to hit effortless pace/depth at the sacrafice of some margin of safety (eg. less topspin == lower to the net)

but i'm guessing pros are hitting the entire range to some degree (heavy spin to push folks back, or find short angles, or flat when raw pace is needed)
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
ByeByePoly said:
Good timing for a Jolly post ... I’m taking a dump. :p

Don’t pirates have any imagination? If the right arm rolls back ... the left arm also rolls back due to that two hands on the racquet contract they signed up for. Left arm back is left arm supination OR left arm esr OR both. So to get back to square (or however close I get to square), left arm has to roll in left arm pronation/isr direction.

When you hit your lhfhs ... does your left arm just lay there?:p
Click to expand...

Uhhhh when I hit left handed forehands my left arm is out to the side palm and racquet face down a lot like my right handed forehand...

J
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
nyta2 said:
given my other thread... my current thinking is that "it depends"

in general a guy like nadals seems to rely on heavy topspin to spin you off the court... but he's ok with long rallies to work the angles...
but guys like kyrgios seem to hurt their opponents with a flat "bunt" bh... (i think other guys like medvedev and de Minaur also hit this way), which seems to hit effortless pace/depth at the sacrafice of some margin of safety (eg. less topspin == lower to the net)

but i'm guessing pros are hitting the entire range to some degree (heavy spin to push folks back, or find short angles, or flat when raw pace is needed)
Click to expand...

I just glanced at your other thread. I know I do what I think of as "help it up" on very low (say below the knees) 1hbh slice shots, but that is more of a "feel/touch" stroke than a full 2hbh drive. I don't think I do what he was talking about on a low 2hbh. I think I get as low as possible at hit as much low to high as it allows, and open the rf. At some arbitrary point of "low" ... I go with 1hbh slice ... which usually ends up with some "helping up" and some side spin.

My guess there are some pros (even ATP) that virtually never hit a closed rf at contact, but would be interested to know if that is true. You figure Evert never hit closed, and maybe even Hewitt.
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
ByeByePoly said:
No doubt Nadal is closed rf, but Djokovic looks mostly square to me.
Click to expand...

They play a different baseline game. Djokovic gets that ball to land near the baseline with eerie regularity while Nadal is going to keep you back with big time spin. He has to have a more closed face to do that, whereas Djoker needs a more square contact to get the depth.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
ByeByePoly said:
Made me wonder ... do most ATP pros hit most 2hbhs strokes with closed face or square at contact. You would probably have to look at a lot of video, and it would be interesting if most do both (square and closed) depending on the shot, or do they tend to be one type or the other.

No doubt Nadal is closed rf, but Djokovic looks mostly square to me.



Click to expand...
The racquet face angle mostly depends on the stringbed stiffness.

Djokovic uses 95” head size with dense 18x20 pattern strung in the 60s.

Nadal 100” head with 16x19 strung at 55.

So to generate a shot with same speed, same launch angle, and same rpm, Nadal needs to close his face a lot more than Djokovic does.
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Dartagnan64 said:
They play a different baseline game. Djokovic gets that ball to land near the baseline with eerie regularity while Nadal is going to keep you back with big time spin. He has to have a more closed face to do that, whereas Djoker needs a more square contact to get the depth.
Click to expand...

Yeah ... I understand why pros add closed face to baseline drives on both wings. My question really boils down to "is there ATP pros that are primarily sq rf at contact players ... maybe ask for fh and bh". For example ... it seems possible to me you might look at 100s of Medvedev FHs and BHs, and not find any significant degree of closed rf on any of them. I'm just curious.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
ByeByePoly said:
I understand why pros add closed face to baseline drives on both wings.
Click to expand...

raw


J
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
travlerajm said:
The racquet face angle mostly depends on the stringbed stiffness.

Djokovic uses 95” head size with dense 18x20 pattern strung in the 60s.

Nadal 100” head with 16x19 strung at 55.

So to generate a shot with same speed, same launch angle, and same rpm, Nadal needs to close his face a lot more than Djokovic does.
Click to expand...

I'm going to say it mainly is style of play. A 24x7 heavy ts drive like Nadal will require a closed rf. I bet if you put any racquet in his hand/hands ... he hits it closed (not that much in degrees probably, but easy to see it is beyond square).

I have experienced noticing a higher launch angle when I hit with a friends racquet. But the adjustment is just less low to high swing, I never change to closing rf (at least it doesn't feel that way ... sometimes you are surprised and saddened with video selfies 8-B ).
 
H

HuusHould

Hall of Fame
nyta2 said:
originally i thought it was just an idiosyncrasy (see hewitt vid below).... so ignored it for years...
but recently i occasionally get to play a kid (utr11) that has that specific backswing... his favorite/best shot is his 2hbh flat dtl...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I noticed that about Hewitt and I have played at least one person who does the same thing (he liked to hit dtl and off bh drives). For some reason having the second hand on the racquet allows you to get away with it.

I only looked at the first bh In the video, but judging from that, regarding your golf swing comparison, you are of course comparing a topspin groundstroke, with a backspin golf shot. The more vertical plane of the golf swing naturally results in a more open clubface as well.
 
H

HuusHould

Hall of Fame
nyta2 said:
originally i thought it was just an idiosyncrasy (see hewitt vid below).... so ignored it for years...
Click to expand...

One thing I've learnt over time, regarding tennis, is to try not to dismiss anything that works for someone as poor technique (which you weren't necessarily doing), or something that will "only work for them", you'll be surprised with the gains you can make if you give unorthodox techniques a chance.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
HuusHould said:
One thing I've learnt over time, regarding tennis, is to try not to dismiss anything that works for someone as poor technique (which you weren't necessarily doing), or something that will "only work for them", you'll be surprised with the gains you can make if you give unorthodox techniques a chance.
Click to expand...
Outlier techniques win more trophies.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger said:
This is statistically impossible unless you are talking about very low levels where everyone has home made games.

J
Click to expand...
No.

For example. There is only one guy in history among pros (to my knowledge) who used a 27.5” frame at 12 ounces and with 360sw and who didn’t use a wrist band. That’s an extreme outlier racquet spec. It’s almost impossible to hit a decent volley with a spec like that, so no one else would try to play with something like that. But that spec makes it easy to really whip the racquet down and up on the serve to generate a lot of racquet head speed with outlier technique that no else uses, so that guy won a few trophies.
 
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T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger said:
This is statistically impossible unless you are talking about very low levels where everyone has home made games.

J
Click to expand...
Another example... how many guys in the top 100 use straight-arm fh technique? Seems like outlier fh technique been hoover-ing up lots of trophies.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm said:
No.

For example. There is only one guy in history among pros (to my knowledge) who used a 27.5” frame at 12 ounces and with 360sw and who didn’t use a wrist band. That’s an extreme outlier racquet spec. It’s almost impossible to hit a decent volley with a spec like that, so no one else would try to play with something like that. But that spec makes it easy to really whip the racquet down and up on the serve to generate a lot of racquet head speed with outlier technique that no else uses, so that guy won a few trophies.
Click to expand...

Ok, if you call absolutely textbook throwing motion outlier technique then I guess you could qualify anything.

I know a guy with underpants too small who has an outlier forehand follow through and won a bunch of clay tournaments.

J
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
HuusHould said:
Yeah, I noticed that about Hewitt and I have played at least one person who does the same thing (he liked to hit dtl and off bh drives). For some reason having the second hand on the racquet allows you to get away with it.

I only looked at the first bh In the video, but judging from that, regarding your golf swing comparison, you are of course comparing a topspin groundstroke, with a backspin golf shot. The more vertical plane of the golf swing naturally results in a more open clubface as well.
Click to expand...

Looks like Hewitt rf is open in backswing, but square (to slightly closed) at contact. It sounded like you were talking about golf at contact.

First 2hbh in video ... first pic right around slot about to swing forward (to me this is the timing to consider, not up high in backswing):

45tvqSNm.gif
XVnvl8Tm.gif


2nd 2hbh ... he is obviously open rf from the moment he sets the rh high in backswing:


l65icdCm.gif
eXAkIRBm.gif


FHs ... answered that question ... Hewitt at least hits some FHs at contact with slightly closed rf. Check the 2nd one, don't beat yourself up if you don't hit every shot in center of rf ... lol.

Rbwy7Q3m.gif
jGi6Vl8m.gif





RIght hander 1hbhs just tend to go here ... I think that is arm roll to the left, then right ... right? 8-B

uDMiOuwm.gif


This is an example of "sunny side up" on bh volley ... I had noticed I did this in my videos and initially thought that has to be way wrong, but not so when you have time to put a little stick into the volley:

INHIakKm.gif


Evert 2hbh backswing:

9zypTqNl.gif
 
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T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger said:
Ok, if you call absolutely textbook throwing motion outlier technique then I guess you could qualify anything.

I know a guy with underpants too small who has an outlier forehand follow through and won a bunch of clay tournaments.

J
Click to expand...
Wait a sec. I looked at a large sampling of ATP pros and measured how far below the trophy position the elbow drops on the takeback. The average for an ATP pro is 2-3 inches. And to my knowledge, there is only one current pro who drops it more than 4”. Sampras was at 3.”

Roddick measured in at 18.” That’s a sick outlier technique. By yanking his elbow more than a foot lower than everyone else, he has a much longer upward acceleration path than everyone else. If that’s textbook, then no one else in history can follow the text.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm said:
Wait a sec. I looked at a large sampling of ATP pros and measured how far below the trophy position the elbow drops on the takeback. The average for an ATP pro is 2-3 inches. And to my knowledge, there is only one current pro who drops it more than 4”. Sampras was at 3.”

Roddick measured in at 18.” That’s a sick outlier technique. By yanking his elbow more than a foot lower than everyone else, he has a much longer upward acceleration path than everyone else. If that’s textbook, then no one else in history can follow the text.
Click to expand...
fd313a4c345a1700f25d9aa00fc636d7.jpg

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about?

J
 
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