RS
Bionic Poster
Best comment in the thread.You're just sore that she wouldn't pay your's.
RS
Bionic Poster
What a achievement.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Couldn't disagree more. Murray either is or is very close to being an ATG. Kyrgios is nowhere near and never will be.
Knowing Nick, he might well do and I can assure you he has the utmost respect for Murray and would treat your suggestion that he is more likely to become an ATG if only he worked a bit harder with the same amusement and disbelief that I do.
Biotic
Hall of Fame
Enough to declare TTW your pet forum?
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Deleted member 779124
Guest
True but it is clear both Federer and Roddick were a step down from return peaks.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
I think Murray is an ATG. While his slam count is not as impressive as others before him; his competition will go down as the greatest group of players of all times.
Also, he carried Great Britain to a Davis Cup title, it's first in the Open Era. Plus his medals at the Olympics. Murray has milked every ounce of his talent. He may have come up short, but it wasn't due to a lack of effort and grit.
Also, he carried Great Britain to a Davis Cup title, it's first in the Open Era. Plus his medals at the Olympics. Murray has milked every ounce of his talent. He may have come up short, but it wasn't due to a lack of effort and grit.
abmk
Bionic Poster
My statement
"Example: He lost to Djoko in 4 AO finals. Those versions of Murray loses to in-form Becker, Courier, Sampras etc. as well. 1 version of Murray who showed up vs Djokovic at AO who would have a decent chance was the semi at AO 12."
I said in-form Becker, Courier. Both have won 2 AOs to 0 for Murray.
You are the one disrespecting Becker and Courier thinking Murray not even at his best (AO 11,13,15,16 finals) would beat in-form versions of them. I said AO 12 semi Murray would have a decent chance vs them (given he played Djokovic close)
other examples of versions of Murray having a decent chance vs in-form Becker/Courier would be AO 10 QF, AO 13 SF (vs Nadal&Federer respectively). But those weren't in the AO finals. Which was the whole point. Murray's under-performance in slam finals.
I rate Murray as he should be rated. You on the other hand blatantly distorted stuff to over-rate him.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Don't recall ever thinking or saying that Murray, not even at his best, would likely beat in-form versions of past ATGs. Of course he would have to be at his best.
I blatantly distort nothing. I defend his record as it is and defend his ability to handle ATGs of all eras given that he has shown, on many occasions, that he can handle the 3 greatest of them in this one and my opinion is based on that fact. I have never and will never claim something for him that I know or think to be beyond his capabilities.
Difference between you and me is that, unlike you, I respect his record.
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
It's alright, man. Djokovic even failed to become a tennis legend.
abmk
Bionic Poster
This was what you said in response to me stating what I did. When I said Murray of AO 11/13/15/16 finals would lose to in-form Becker/Courier..
"You state quite confidently that he would lose to Becker and Courier in the same way he lost to Djokovic. I totally disagree but, as we know "
Murray was not at his best in those finals.
What else does this mean?
you just did in this thread. I showed how the record of Stan, Hewitt and Roddick in slams finals vs quality competition in name is significantly better than Murray's. But you ignored that and instead only focussed on one part with apologism for Murray when truth is he didn't play well enough in many of them, clearly inferior to the 3 I mentioned.
Yes, its true that Murray did face Djokovic or Federer in all of his slam finals except one. But its also true that he wasn't upto the mark in many of them.
I rate Murray record just fine. I just other examples of his pretty good performances at AO. But unless someone is a sycophant for Murray, you are not happy. Too bad, just because a fanboy says some something, doesn't mean its going to change the reality that there's a significant chasm b/w Murray and Becker/Edberg/Wilander greatness wise.
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Deleted member 762343
Guest
Of course Kyrgios is not an ATG and never will be, I said he had the potential to be one and did nothing with it. Murray, on the other hand, gave it his all but couldn’t keep up with the Big 3 because he lacked talent and winning 3 slams is not enough to be an ATG in my book.
I couldn’t care less about what Kyrgios would think of my statement, the guy is a clown. I’m more interested in your opinion, care to explain why you find this so surprising ?
RS
Bionic Poster
Time travel matches
1. Nadal Wim 06 final vs Federer Wim 15 final
2. Nadal Wim 11 final vs Murray Wim 13 final
3. Agassi AO 03 final vs Federer AO 09 final
4. Federer AO 09 final vs Djokovic AO 13 final
5. Djokovic RG 12 final vs Wawrinka RG 15 final
6. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Federer Wim 19 final
7. Roddick USO 03 final vs Nadal USO 13 final
8. Hewitt USO 01 final vs Djokovic USO 15 final
9. Del Potro RG 09 vs Federer RG 10
1. Nadal Wim 06 final vs Federer Wim 15 final
2. Nadal Wim 11 final vs Murray Wim 13 final
3. Agassi AO 03 final vs Federer AO 09 final
4. Federer AO 09 final vs Djokovic AO 13 final
5. Djokovic RG 12 final vs Wawrinka RG 15 final
6. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Federer Wim 19 final
7. Roddick USO 03 final vs Nadal USO 13 final
8. Hewitt USO 01 final vs Djokovic USO 15 final
9. Del Potro RG 09 vs Federer RG 10
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I love the way you blandly assume that Becker and Courier would always play better than any of the Big 3 did in their Slam finals and that Murray would behave towards them in the exact same manner he did in the finals he actually played. I happen to think that wouldn't necessarily be the case and I feel it is reasonable to think that way. You just always think the worst of Murray based on the simple fact that you don't like him and therefore don't rate him.
Stan only made 3 Slam finals and wasn't able to win any of them in straights. In his last one, at RG of all places, he did significantly worse than Murray did the year before against Djokovic. Hewitt only faced 1 ATG in a Slam final, not 2 and Roddick couldn't bring the bacon home when he had a golden opportunity to do so (2009). Clearly superior only to you.
Not up to the mark in any of them...lol. Only a confirmed Murray-hater like you would have the gall to say that when he won TWO of them, one of them in straight sets. Enough said!
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I happen to think that the variety of Murray's accomplishments across his whole career puts him in ATG brackets. For me, it's not all about the Slam count. To even mention that a clown like Kyrgios even had more potential than Murray is just a gross insult and complete disrespect for what Murray did achieve in his career.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Murray Slice, real name, no gimmicks.
RS
Bionic Poster
Kyrgios in the Miami 2017 SF played as well as Murray ever did. If he took tennis serious he would probably have about the same slams as Murray or close.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
RS
Bionic Poster
abmk
Bionic Poster
no, I never assumed that nor did I say anything remotely close to that. I said in-form Becker/Courier vs Murray of AO 11/13/15/16 finals. They do have 2 AO finals with well above average performances in them, unlike Murray in AO finals.
I also mentioned Murray of AO 10 QF/AO 12 SF/AO 13 SF would have a decent chance since he played well in those.
Your insecure delusional reading is your problem, not mine
Stan made 4 slam finals, not 3.
Also, Nadal of RG 2017 final quite clearly better than Djokovic of RG 2016 final. That was only slam final performance of Stan that was lacking out of 4.
Hewitt faced 2 ATGs in slam finals - Sampras and Federer (3rd one I mentioned was not an ATG, but a rampaging Safin who had beaten peak ATG federer in the semi of AO 2005)
The fact that you got even basic stuff regarding Stan/Hewitt wrong says it all about your focus on fanboying of Murray and consequently under-rating of these players.
Oh and Roddick fought very hard in Wim 09. Fed should've won 1st and Roddick 2nd set. Just went the other way. Don't even bring it up when Murray has CRUMBLED far worse in slam finals.
Oh and you are cribbing Stan couldn't win in straights in his slam finals vs Nadal/Djokovic/Djokovic?
I said not upto to the mark in many of them.
I didn't say not any of them.
Learn to read, you completely insecure Murray fanboy.
Screenshot is from your own post including where you quote me.
It reads many, not any.
I had already said before that Murray has played well above average in 4 slam finals: Wim 12, USO 12, Wim 13, Wim 16
(a little above average in AO 13/AO 15 finals at best)
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RS
Bionic Poster
Even in Serbia?
RS
Bionic Poster
I didn't know you were not counting Serbia.
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Deleted member 775898
Guest
RS
Bionic Poster
I was kidding.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
1. Nadal Wim 06 final vs Federer Wim 15 final
2. Nadal Wim 11 final vs Murray Wim 13 final
3. Agassi AO 03 final vs Federer AO 09 final
4. Federer AO 09 final vs Djokovic AO 13 final
5. Djokovic RG 12 final vs Wawrinka RG 15 final
6. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Federer Wim 19 final
7. Roddick USO 03 final vs Nadal USO 13 final
8. Hewitt USO 01 final vs Djokovic USO 15 final
9. Del Potro RG 09 vs Federer RG 10
2. Nadal Wim 11 final vs Murray Wim 13 final
3. Agassi AO 03 final vs Federer AO 09 final
4. Federer AO 09 final vs Djokovic AO 13 final
5. Djokovic RG 12 final vs Wawrinka RG 15 final
6. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Federer Wim 19 final
7. Roddick USO 03 final vs Nadal USO 13 final
8. Hewitt USO 01 final vs Djokovic USO 15 final
9. Del Potro RG 09 vs Federer RG 10
Sunny014
Legend
100% true
Sir Andy used to reach the Semis regularly because the rest of the field wasn't that deep as it was in previous decades but once he reached the semis he ran into the Big 3 and his level was consistently below everyone. That suggests that his peak game isn't high enough to beat anyone. So he would not have won more than 3 slams in any era and if he was 5-6 years younger then he might have retired on 1 or 0 slam due to running into Peak Federer who could be like Unstoppable as well as Immovable at the same time, one has to be really high peak play like Safin/Nadal to take out Federer on his bad day, not happening, Andy even on his good day cannot beat Fed on his bad day.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Knew Stan was in 4 finals just had the ones he won on my mind that's all, so shoot me. Forgot about Hewitt playing Fed at USO but he certainly didn't fare better against him there than Murray did. Don't recall Murray getting bagelled TWICE in a single Slam final. So none of my slip-ups actually supported anything you said at all.
Shoulda woulda coulda. Fact remains that he didn't win whereas Murray won TWO Wimbledon finals, 1 against an ATG and he did both of them in straight sets. Cry me a river for poor Rodders.
Oh and you are cribbing Stan couldn't win in straights in his slam finals vs Nadal/Djokovic/Djokovic?
Careful you don't choke on all those smilies. Fact remains that Murray beat an ATG in straight sets in a Slam final. Stan didn't a fact you would undoubtedly have pointed out if it was Stan whose record you like to diss instead of Murray's.
Okay, I was a bit hasty again none of which is going to change our respective opinions on Murray's worth one little bit (unfortunately in your case).I said not upto to the mark in many of them.
I didn't say not any of them.
Learn to read, you completely insecure Murray fanboy.
Screenshot is from your own post including where you quote me.
It reads many, not any.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
It was the same ATG but he is reckoned by many to be the GrassGOAT. He did also straight set another ATG and previous champion en route to the final but naturally the haters on here would never acknowledge that. Now if Hewitt or Roddick had done that they would have been pointing this out right, left and centre.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
That's good. I need more posts in this thread.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
Murray’s career > Hewitt + Roddick career combined.
Put Murray in 01-07 fairytale era and he ends up with 10-12 slams if he faces Bagdhatis, Kiefer, Grosjean, Bogdanovic, Philippousis, Gonzo instead of peak big 3
Put Murray in 01-07 fairytale era and he ends up with 10-12 slams if he faces Bagdhatis, Kiefer, Grosjean, Bogdanovic, Philippousis, Gonzo instead of peak big 3
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
Murray’s career > Hewitt + Roddick career combined.
Put Murray in 01-07 fairytale era and he ends up with 10-12 slams if he faces Bagdhatis, Kiefer, Grosjean, Bogdanovic, Philippousis, Gonzo instead of peak big 3
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think that's enough emotes.Murray’s career > Hewitt + Roddick career combined.
Put Murray in 01-07 fairytale era and he ends up with 10-12 slams if he faces Bagdhatis, Kiefer, Grosjean, Bogdanovic, Philippousis, Gonzo instead of peak big 3
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
Fairytale era. That's good.
Sunny014
Legend
Murray’s career > Hewitt + Roddick career combined.
Put Murray in 01-07 fairytale era and he ends up with 10-12 slams if he faces Bagdhatis, Kiefer, Grosjean, Bogdanovic, Philippousis, Gonzo instead of peak big 3
Peak Moorey would be getting straight setted by Fed in every semi they face.
So Baghtatis orKiefer type fellows don't make any difference
To win Slam one needs to beat the Alpha, whether you can beat the Beta or lose to Beta is irrelevant because the Alpha will obliterate you regardless
Sunny014
Legend
Murray in Federer's gen ends up on 0 Slams ..... He is quite lucky to be in Djokovic's gen where free slams are available for Murray and Stanimal
Peak level play in the new millennium
Tier 1 : Federer, Djokovic, Nadal and King Marat Safin.
Tier 2 : Murray, Roddick, Stanimal, Potro
Tier 3 : Hewitt
Tier 4 : Thiem, Medvedev etc etc
Peak level play in the new millennium
Tier 1 : Federer, Djokovic, Nadal and King Marat Safin.
Tier 2 : Murray, Roddick, Stanimal, Potro
Tier 3 : Hewitt
Tier 4 : Thiem, Medvedev etc etc
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Deleted member 781040
Guest
Fed must miss the days when he could sweep aside Spadea and Blake on the way to a fun four set hit with his best pals Roddick or Hewitt. He really had a good gig there for a while. Too bad Djokodal had to come along and spoil the FairytaleMurray’s career > Hewitt + Roddick career combined.
Put Murray in 01-07 fairytale era and he ends up with 10-12 slams if he faces Bagdhatis, Kiefer, Grosjean, Bogdanovic, Philippousis, Gonzo instead of peak big 3
D
Deleted member 781040
Guest
Andy Murray failed to become an ATG because he did not play in the era of Udomchoke where anything was possible
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Deleted member 781040
Guest
Everything was possible in the Udomchoke eraMurray’s career > Hewitt + Roddick career combined.
Put Murray in 01-07 fairytale era and he ends up with 10-12 slams if he faces Bagdhatis, Kiefer, Grosjean, Bogdanovic, Philippousis, Gonzo instead of peak big 3
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
I
luckily for him he improved his game and turned around his h2hs vs Murray and Nadal.
In real life matches, Murray was 6-2 up against peak Fed
luckily for him he improved his game and turned around his h2hs vs Murray and Nadal.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
The tears after AO 09 were because he knew the free ride was finally overFed must miss the days when he could sweep aside Spadea and Blake on the way to a fun four set hit with his best pals Roddick or Hewitt. He really had a good gig there for a while. Too bad Djokodal had to come along and spoil the Fairytale
Then his master burned out with injury and he vultured 3/4 slams... back to cocky arrogant - erer once again... before 40-15 humbled the great one once more
hard to remain arrogant with so many losses over and over
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Deleted member 781040
Guest
I would probably react the same, if as a Varsity singles champion my competition went from mostly junior varsity singles players to two other guys better than meThe tears after AO 09 were because he knew the free ride was finally over
Then his master burned out with injury and he vultured 3/4 slams... back to cocky arrogant - erer once again... before 40-15 humbled the great one once more
Jason Swerve
Hall of Fame
Looks good so far. Did you finish the manuscript?The tears after AO 09 were because he knew the free ride was finally over
Then his master burned out with injury and he vultured 3/4 slams... back to cocky arrogant - erer once again... before 40-15 humbled the great one once more
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
RG 08, Wimbledon 08, AO 09 - at his peak and loses all 3 finals to Nadal
*Nadal injured*
Federer sweeps RG 09, Wimbledon 09, AO 10
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Deleted member 781040
Guest
What was the manipulated variable?RG 08, Wimbledon 08, AO 09 - at his peak and loses all 3 finals to Nadal
*Nadal injured*
Federer sweeps RG 09, Wimbledon 09, AO 10
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