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Deleted member 748597
Guest
Andy Murray is not an ATG. Not even close.
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
Tim Henman is the real ATG
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Deleted member 688153
Guest
what even is the definition of atg? he's in a different tier to djokofedalroddick of course but whats the cut-off
Biotic
Hall of Fame
The cut off is "no Andies", which means only one Andy is allowed, and Roddick got there first...
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Weak era admissions.As long as we admit white wine>>>red
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
6 slams is what somebody came up. Still haven't been able to trademark it.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Might be the threshold, only must add that it may include 3 slam winners if they are Scottish.
President
Legend
As long as we admit white wine>>>red
Not a chance bruh. Red wine with steak is GOAT.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Sorry, MN, you have fine taste most of the time, but I gotta disagree with you on this.As long as we admit white wine>>>red
Red wine for me any day of the week.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Sorry, MN, you have fine taste most of the time, but I gotta disagree with you on this.
Red wine for me any day of the week.
Yall and this bitter, overpowering wine
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
OK, his wine taste was already checked, and I think we all agree there.Sorry, MN, you have fine taste most of the time, but I gotta disagree with you on this.
Red wine for me any day of the week.
Next step, let's analyze his (fast) food sympathies
RS
Bionic Poster
You should have just bumped the old thread up.
Breakpointerer
Legend
A one and a half year journey coming to a close here
AO13
Hall of Fame
The guy who played in the era of three greatest tennis players of all time, beat all of them several times on many occasions on Slams and Masters, won 3 Grand Slams, played in 8 more finals, won 14 Masters 1000 titles, won 2 Olympic gold medals and won an ATP Finals, was 41 weeks at number 1 spot, is not an ATG?
Brother in my eyes he's top 10 of all time.
Brother in my eyes he's top 10 of all time.
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
Lmfao.
But is his ELO top 10?
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
He is perhaps not in top 10 HC Slam peaks of 21st century: (Djokovic Federer Nadal, Agassi ‘03 AO, Tsonga ‘08 AO, Wawrinka AO ‘14, Pete ‘02 USO, Del Potro ‘09 USO, Cilic USO ‘14, Safin ‘05 AO) and then Roddick ‘03 USO&Hewitt ‘01 USO are probably comparable
this is subjective but it’s one of the reasons why he is not that popular on TTW imo, lacking that signature Slam performance and peak level
StringGuruMRT
Semi-Pro
So by this rubric Becker is an ATG? I like this benchmark!
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
This, absolutely this.
Imagine Lendl had to play in an era where Borg was only five years older, and Sampras and Agassi were his age. He'd be lucky to get those three Slams.
Tennisfan339
Professional
Still the 4th best player of the century so far.
Let's see who can do better than him... win 4 slams, 15 Masters, be #1.... At this point it's not even certain Medvedev or Zverev are gonna win more GS than Murray. Even if they do, it will not be in the same era as Nadal Djokovic and Federer.
Let's see who can do better than him... win 4 slams, 15 Masters, be #1.... At this point it's not even certain Medvedev or Zverev are gonna win more GS than Murray. Even if they do, it will not be in the same era as Nadal Djokovic and Federer.
NAS
Hall of Fame
Borg was only four year older than Lendl
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Borg was only 4 years older to Lendl and yet that didn't stop Lendl from winning his slams, it was Borg who had to leave. Mac was also 3 years older to Lendl and that still didn't stop Lendl from winning. Younger ATG will always find ways to beat another ATG who is 5-6 years older because a younger ATG always has an age advantage when he is in his early 20s and beyond. Murray had the age advantage over Federer forever since the late 00s but he did not do anything worthy in best of 5, the state of Murray's tennis is such that even in 2021 a 90 year old Federer progressed farther at Wimbledon that Murray could.
Imagine the plight of Murray, even at 34 he is not better than a 40 year old semi retired guy who is basically at that level of being bageled by Hurkacz of all people. Murray never had any excuses because at no point in his career was he ever a threat to Federer, that is why he never was even remotely close to being an ATG.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Sampras automatically has the GOAT serve (which gives him a big edge) and the GOAT nerves of steel which only Novak seems to have in this era. Sampras was also the top athlete of his era in Tennis, like Nadal is from this era, put all these attributes in an athlete born in 1987 and you are not looking at someone with 3 slams, this is someone with 20 slams!
So no, saying just Sampras would have more than 3 is an over glorification of Murray.
I say, Agassi, Mcenroe, Borg, Lendl, Boris would all have more than 3 slams, it is not just Sampras. The big 3 are good but not untouchable, other athletes if born in modern era with the training and nutrition that Murray got, they would all do much better because their reflexes, their talent, they IQ would all be much better. ...... That is what makes an ATG !
Larry Duff
Legend
He is not an ATG
He is THE ATG
He is THE ATG
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
GOD Serve? haha .... Federer's serve is just an ATG serve that is precise, it is not a GOAT serve, Roddick and Hewitt made Federer's serve look GOATy but it wasn't. If Federer's serve was actually GOATy then it would have troubled Djokovic's return but it could not.
Sampras without Poly used to serve 120+ which was around 10-15 MPH higher than Federer on both 1st and 2nd in 2001, plus his ability to produce an ACE down the line or wide at will with supreme disguise and supreme clutch when facing a breakpoint is what makes his serve GOATy. With Poly his serve would be regularly 135+, that is the sort of weapon which might trouble Djokovic.
Players like Nadal and Sampras depended more on their athleticism to subdue their opponents, as they reached 30 their powers waned but when it was in full flow it was quite imposing and at times unstoppable. In his last years his Thalassemia Minor + his refusal to shift to poly and adapt + laziness to train more (he had the 3 golden records that Novak holds today and so he already was the GOAT, so he lost motivation) was what caused his career to end in 02, or else he is right up there with the Big 3.
Sampras born in mid-late 80s means you can divide the slams of the Big 3 among 4, plain and simple, wimbledon and his home slam, those would be his quite frequently.
If Wawrinka can win 3 slams then Sampras can and will win at least 14-15.
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I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Atleast Murray has won multi Queens titles how many has Djokovic won
?
D
Deleted member 748597
Guest
Atleast Murray has won multi Queens titles how many has Djokovic won
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Poor Murray denied ATG keys once more.
D
Deleted member 748597
Guest
Stop torturing me.
NAS
Hall of Fame
Low blowAtleast Murray has won multi Queens titles how many has Djokovic won
At least he has the 9 highest peak ever.
Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Peak Elo Ratings
Peak Elo Ratings compare peak player strengths across Eras, overall, by surface, by in/out or by set/game/tie-break
www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I wouldn't end this comparison only at Murray. Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Delpo and Stan have something to say about it too.
Don't believe Next Gen are better than these guys.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Because there wasn't anyone to lose to really. The field outside the Big 3 was pretty weak. After Fed's gen completely dissipated with Roddick's decline, there weren't really any elite players left outside the Big 3.
AO13
Hall of Fame
@Adam Copeland
I agree about Slam dividing between RF, RN, ND and PS, but Sampras would end with something like 6-8 Slams, while the Big 3 would have 12-16.
About serve, it's not only about how fast is the serve. Then Isner would be the greatest. It's about the toss, quality of 2nd serve, tactics. If it wasn't for that stupid guy who yelled "C'MON ROGER" after Federer tossed the ball, he would have hit an third ace in a row and would have won Wimbledon 2019. Novak Djokovic is the greatest returner of serve of all time, one of the best anticipation, reflexes on the court, and he still had hardest time to read Federer's serve. On that match point, he went on his right, while Federer was going for the T.
Sure, Sampras is the 2nd best of all time, close with Roddick. Federer is the serve GOAT.
I agree about Slam dividing between RF, RN, ND and PS, but Sampras would end with something like 6-8 Slams, while the Big 3 would have 12-16.
About serve, it's not only about how fast is the serve. Then Isner would be the greatest. It's about the toss, quality of 2nd serve, tactics. If it wasn't for that stupid guy who yelled "C'MON ROGER" after Federer tossed the ball, he would have hit an third ace in a row and would have won Wimbledon 2019. Novak Djokovic is the greatest returner of serve of all time, one of the best anticipation, reflexes on the court, and he still had hardest time to read Federer's serve. On that match point, he went on his right, while Federer was going for the T.
Sure, Sampras is the 2nd best of all time, close with Roddick. Federer is the serve GOAT.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
I consider Fed to be the GOAT so the fact that Murray was his pigeon does not mean Murray isn't an ATG. Federer would have made most ATGs a pigeon too.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Murray was not just Federer's pigeon, he was also Novak and Nadal's pigeon as well, the H2Hs are horrible vs all 3, plus he also has a losing H2H to Stan in Slams despite a far impressive resume in best of 3, so the question marks on Sir Andy's Peak in BO5 raises serious doubt on how high it was.
Also using words like Pigeon might not be too appropriate, because going by the definition of pigeon even Federer was the pigeon of Nadal from 2005 till 2014, that is a full decade. Raise serious doubts on Fed's GOAThood, how can GOAT be pigeon to someone in his own era?
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Murray won two Slams over Djok, who else can say that?
Everything you're saying supports my point. Murray wasn't as good as the B3. But being as good as the B3 isn't the threshold for being an ATG.
Adam Copeland
Hall of Fame
Hmm, 6-8 slams while Big 3 have 12-16 ?
WOW, You think Pete is that bad ?
A guy who has 12 (W+USO) fast Slams in a very competitive era when careers ended at 30 would be on 6-8 slams ? R u sure ? I am shocked at how low you rate the Sampras serve, Pete has a very high % of unreturned serves and Roger trails in that statistics despite playing in an era where racquet are superior and have only helped the servers, only reason why the courts are slow now are to avoid the matches getting all servebotting due to the powerful racquets, yet you feel federer has a superior serve to Pete ? lol, I will let @NonP tackle your queries on Pete. This would be fun.
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