What is the category below ATG? And who is in it?

There is a thread arguing whether Andy Murray can be called an all-time-great. I would say no -he can't be considered in the same category as Tilden, Budge, Laver, Borg, Federer etc.

So what do we call the category below ATG? Great? All-time-very good? Tier 2?
And which players are in it?
 

HuusHould

Hall of Fame
I guess you take away "All time" and say that they're one of the great players of their era. I'd say guys like Stan Wawrinka, Lleyton Hewitt, Pat Rafter, Jim Courier's right on the precipice. Then you look at one of the much discussed but very rarely agreed on topics of the weak to strong era continuum, which makes it difficult to categorise based on a "hard and fast" major titles won criteria.
 
Last edited:

ojo rojo

Legend
Add a splash of colour to the beige landscape of this thread by inserting GIF here:
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
There is a thread arguing whether Andy Murray can be called an all-time-great. I would say no -he can't be considered in the same category as Tilden, Budge, Laver, Borg, Federer etc.

So what do we call the category below ATG? Great? All-time-very good? Tier 2?
And which players are in it?
Very good.

And it includes players like Kafelnikov, Courier, Bruguera, Hewitt, Safin, Wawrinka, Murray, etc.

If Murray wins 5 majors I might consider him an ATG.
 

HuusHould

Hall of Fame
But 2nd Tier makes them sound like not great players, don't you think? As if they're somehow 2nd rate?

Maybe, but when viewed in the context of 2nd tier "All Time Great tennis players" it still sounds like a prestigious category! So I guess I'm saying it's just another tier of the same category.
 
Last edited:

Otacon

Hall of Fame
I think the greatness of a player cannot be judged solely by the number of Slams.

First, because Slams have not always been the alpha and omega of tennis like today. Without going back to the pre-open era, one should keep in mind that for 24 years (1972-86), the Australian Open was not considered a major. And during the 70s, many Grand Slams should be asterisked and others do not even deserve the "Grand Slam tournament" label.

Ergo, there should be other criteria such as the influence on the game, the popularity, the longevity, the exceptional nature of certain achievements, etc.

Tennis players who changed the way the game is played, whether it is a style, attitude, or a signature move, are a rare breed.
Nastase for example, won only two Slams, but has 4 Masters to his name, the unofficial Grand Slam of the time. And more importantly, he left a lasting tennis legacy, thanks to his spectacular shots, artistry and panache, he was highly popular and tennis owes him a lot.
Hewitt on the other hand, proved that you don't need to have huge weapons to dominate world tennis. He showed that the mental part of the game was the most crucial and to this day, he's still the youngest ever No.1 player in the world.

And one last thing, considering that there were tens of thousands of tennis players, when should we stop counting? The first 10 ATG, the 20, the 50, the first 100 ATG ?
 
Last edited:

zagor

Bionic Poster
Talking about Open Era, I'd say 6 slams should be a cutoff for ATG, Becker and Edberg territory. 2nd Tier is not a bad way to group those somewhat below and maybe reserve 3d tier for slamless players but who were nevertheless consistent in remaining in top 10 for many years (say Berdych, Ferrer or Davydenko).

It's hard to say though, maybe someone will give less weight to slams only and take into account other achievements. If pushed to make a judgement call, I'd say the sum of other achievements in tennis (including consistency and longevity) should reward one slam for the purpose of comparison with other players. For example, both Stan and Murray have 3 slams but the latter is clearly belongs in a higher category overall, of course should Stan win another slam and Murray doesn't it becomes more murky (though I'd still go with Andy).
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
ATM (All Time Mugs)? :p

Seriously, though, I think like Otacon that slams shouldn't be the only metric. Where is the cut, though--that's an interesting question. Players like Edberg and Becker are definitely ATG's (tier 3, but still). What about a Courier, though? Would he rank as an ATG? I guess so, just--but would Wawrinka qualify? I would say no, he hasn't been consistent enough. Hewitt has more of a case than Stan, imho (by far, actually). (Oh, and Murray definitely *is* an ATG, even if just tier 4.)

And no, being an ATG doesn't necessarily mean you're in the same category as Laver, Fed, etc. Hence the tiers. Otherwise, if you get to comparing, it's the GOAT debate all over again ("Sampras can't be an ATG, as Fed got him beat in each category", "Tilden either, has only got 10 slams", "Scrap Gonzales too, he's only got 2"), and soon enough, the usual suspects will start digging trenches once again to try and determine whether Laver or Federer is *the* ATG after all the others have been thrown out the window (and yet, for all we know, Tilden may have made mincemeat of them both, there's just no way to settle this conclusively one way or another).
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Just "greats". The likes of Newcombe, Vilas, Courier, Kafelnikov, Hewitt, Murray, Wawrinka - guys with 3-5 major titles + the most accomplished 2-slammers.

Then come near-greats like Roche, Tanner, Bruguera, Muster, Rafter, Roddick, del Potro etc. - most 1-2 slammers and the most accomplished (unlucky) slamless players.

Then great players of their time, but ultimately not Slam-winning material - in recent times, that would be the likes of Nalbandian, Davydenko, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga. Lucky 'one Slam wonders' like T. Johansson also go here.
 
Just "greats". The likes of Newcombe, Vilas, Courier, Kafelnikov, Hewitt, Murray, Wawrinka - guys with 3-5 major titles + the most accomplished 2-slammers.

Then come near-greats like Roche, Tanner, Bruguera, Muster, Rafter, Roddick, del Potro etc. - most 1-2 slammers and the most accomplished (unlucky) slamless players.

Then great players of their time, but ultimately not Slam-winning material - in recent times, that would be the likes of Nalbandian, Davydenko, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga. Lucky 'one Slam wonders' like T. Johansson also go here.
Good post. Makes a lot of sense. Where would you place Nastase and Pancho G?.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
For pure Open Era players, I classify those with 6+ slams as All Time Greats.

Next come the Borderline Greats, who are as follows: Courier, Murray, Vilas, Nastase, Kuerten, Hewitt and Wawrinka.
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
ATG is way too exclusive imo. Lots of posters seem go with the interpretation that unless a player is in the GOAT debate tier (Fed/Rafa/Novak/Sampras/Borg/Laver) then they're not an all-time great.

For my money, anyone in the Hall of Fame counts as an all-time great.
 
ATG is way too exclusive imo. Lots of posters seem go with the interpretation that unless a player is in the GOAT debate tier (Fed/Rafa/Novak/Sampras/Borg/Laver) then they're not an all-time great.

For my money, anyone in the Hall of Fame counts as an all-time great.
Then maybe there needs to be a category ABOVE all time great?

Legends: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.
ATG: Rosewall, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi
Greats: Ashe, Vilas, Courier, Murray, Wawrinka
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
Then maybe there needs to be a category ABOVE all time great?

Legends: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.
ATG: Rosewall, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi
Greats: Ashe, Vilas, Courier, Murray, Wawrinka
That feels right, but there's no way we could ever get everyone to agree on a breakdown like that to the point where we can just use those terms and people know who falls into them.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Then maybe there needs to be a category ABOVE all time great?

Legends: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.
ATG: Rosewall, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi
Greats: Ashe, Vilas, Courier, Murray, Wawrinka
Where would you put Emerson?
 
There is a thread arguing whether Andy Murray can be called an all-time-great. I would say no -he can't be considered in the same category as Tilden, Budge, Laver, Borg, Federer etc.

So what do we call the category below ATG? Great? All-time-very good? Tier 2?
And which players are in it?

I think it must be "great of their period" or something like that. So, we reduce the time frame of comparison not the quality of their reputation over time.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
I've only included players who won titles in the open era. An extended list would have to put Emerson in the ATG category (although it messes up the simplicity. )
Understandable. Would you consider Guga a great? There's not a lot of conversation here about him it seems.

He won 3 FO. It should count for something. Maybe his lack of success at other slams is the reason for this. He was one of my fav players to watch on clay.
 
That's why I'm suggesting calling them "Greats", which takes out the "All-Time" bit!

Sure, that makes sense. I don't like the talk of tiers, particularly. I think it's too quantitative. We need a more descriptive category. There can be tiers within any category, so calling them "tier 2" makes it unclear whether they are "tier 2 all-time greats" (which I think is an extremely clunky locution) or "tier 2 of players, so the tier below all-time greats."
 
Understandable. Would you consider Guga a great? There's not a lot of conversation here about him it seems.

He won 3 FO. It should count for something. Maybe his lack of success at other slams is the reason for this. He was one of my fav players to watch on clay.
Legends: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.
ATG: Rosewall, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi
Greats: Ashe, Vilas, Courier, Kuerten, Murray, Wawrinka
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Then maybe there needs to be a category ABOVE all time great?

Legends: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.
ATG: Rosewall, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi
Greats: Ashe, Vilas, Courier, Murray, Wawrinka
All those guys you have in the ATG category(with the possible exception of Wilander) could rightfully be described as legends of the game as well.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Legends: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.
ATG: Rosewall, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi
Greats: Ashe, Vilas, Courier, Kuerten, Murray, Wawrinka
How can Federer be a legend when the only reason he has above 5 slams is because he was born 5 years early. Are we going to make Federer's parents part of the legends category as well?
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Very good.

And it includes players like Kafelnikov, Courier, Bruguera, Hewitt, Safin, Wawrinka, Murray, etc.

If Murray wins 5 majors I might consider him an ATG.
Kafelnikov and possibly even Bruguera have no business with the others you mentioned.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
How can Federer be a legend when the only reason he has above 5 slams is because he was born 5 years early. Are we going to make Federer's parents part of the legends category as well?

images
 

clout

Hall of Fame
These questions are always so tough to answer and it obviously varies amongst everyone's opinions.
I'll only base this off of open era since tbh I don't have enough knowledge regarding the pre-open era to make a firm opinion. With that said, the GOAT candidate group are players who simply light years ahead of everyone else and IMO this would include Federer (who IMO is the current GOAT), Nadal, Nole, Sampras, and Borg. The ATG group would include players who are considered legends but are quite behind in career numbers to be GOAT candidates, such as Laver (who "only" racked up 5 majors since open era), Agassi, Connors, Mac, Wilander, Lendl, Edberg, and Becker. The final category of "greatness" would be the borderline ATG (players who are usually 50/50 in people's minds during the "are they considered legends debates". So players like Courier, Murray, Newcombe, Rosewall (both players racked up 4 and 5 slams, respectively since the beginning of open era), Vilas, Kodes, Ashe, Kuerten, Wawrinka, and Hewitt.
 

hann7

New User
With 16 major titles, I think we can safely say Nadal is an ATG, don't you?

No becuase they are mug slams. How many FO did nadals FO opponents have? How manny AO did djokovics AO opponents have? Why is nadal such a mug era champion? Why can he only win against such weak clay competition. I mean nadals total clay competition has 3 FO lol. Pathetic era. I mean feds hard or grass competition career total be competitors with hundreds of slams. Nadals is 3. Lol. Probably the biggest fraud/ title vulturing in all sport
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
How? Kafelnikov's career and level of play was closer to Davydenko, 99 AO is more or less a glorified masters title.
His slams are of higher quality but I'm not talking about level of play. Just achievements.

Safin's 15 titles really hurt him IMO.
 
Top