Is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level?

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 31, 2022

AnyPUG said:
Frying pan grip is not eastern, it's semi-western.

As I attempted to explain in post #36, this is not the way a real chef normally holds a frying pan while cooking. They are closer to a conti grip.

Full disclosure: I am not a good cook. I will often use a palm down grip instead. If the handle is oriented straight toward me, I may use something close to SW grip.

Howevr, If I’m using a front burner, it can be unsafe to orient the pan with the handle pointing straight ahead. Especially if the frying pan will be left unattended for a bit. For safety, I will often have the handle oriented angled to the side. I may be more inclined to grab the handle with something close to an eastern grip in this situation.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 31, 2022

TennisCJC said:
My opinion is Fed uses an E/SW hybrid and it requires a contact out front. You'll also notice that when he is late, he will swing almost straight up and use the over the head lasso finish like Nadal. A SW or W requires hitting more in front to allow the racket face to open up more and it typically points downward longer as you swing forward.

What about RBA?

AnyPUG · Dec 31, 2022

SystemicAnomaly said:
@Curious

As I attempted to explain in post #36, this is not the way a real chef normally holds a frying pan while cooking. They are closer to a conti grip.

A real chef does not hold a frying pan. He/she watches as his assistants wonder what grip to use for the day - deep fry or stir fry.

Dragy · Dec 31, 2022

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
What about RBA?

No grand slams = not worthy

socallefty · Dec 31, 2022

yoyofly said:
I meant to ask, offhand parallel to the baseline, okay. How about offhand need to straight up or bend is ok. Does the offhand need to match the hitting arm. If straight hitting arm, then offhand arm also need to be straightened , if not, then not?

It seems from my memory that most rec players have the offhand with a slight elbow bend although there are some who hold it more straight— probably personal style and I don’t know if there is a textbook method. I don’t think it needs to correlate to the hitting arm - I rarely see straight-arm dominant arms anyway at the rec level. The main point is that when you have good body coil, your offhand tends to coil also.

pencilcheck · Dec 31, 2022

you should do whatever you like, I suggestion is to not limiting yourself to just Federer. You should be learning about their fundamentals from watching how they hit, not simply on how they look, and what the swing path look like. Don't worry too much about wrist, elbow, and racquet angle, don't worry about pronation etc. I would focus on everything else

Chas Tennis · Dec 31, 2022

Forehand separation involves trunk or spine twisting. That would probably stress some tennis players, and especially older players or those with a history of back problems should be very careful or avoid separation. I have shown ATP separation many times in videos and also WTA players. Separation is a characteristic of pro players but not of rec players. Tone down what you copy and research common injuries, conditioning exercises, and medical advice if you should.

Shroud · Dec 31, 2022

yoyofly said:
Hello,

I'm wondering is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level. I'm also using eastern grip, when I review my recordings, I can see especially that my take back, back swing, wrist flip and racket lag are quite different from Federer, well, that's almost everything. Can I just try to copy everything from him blindly or are his movements too advanced for me still? Thank you.

Maybe its me but lots of elements are fine but I have a hard time advocating the straight arm component. Just seems like its an elbow injury waiting to happen.

most players arm the ball. Its all arm. Fed uses the kinetic chain and well that is a whole different animal and helps with the straight arm.

ok. Full disclosure I am speculating about the straight arm since I dont hit like that…

ballmachineguy · Dec 31, 2022

Chas Tennis said:
Forehand separation involves trunk or spine twisting. That would probably stress some tennis players, and especially older players or those with a history of back problems should be very careful or avoid separation. I have shown ATP separation many times in videos and also WTA players. Separation is a characteristic of pro players but not of rec players. Tone down what you copy and research common injuries, conditioning exercises, and medical advice if you should.

What are you talking about?

SystemicAnomaly · Jan 1, 2023

ballmachineguy said:
What are you talking about?

Chas omitted an important word there. He should have referred to the separation angle for a forehand groundstroke. This refers to the offset between the orientation the hips and the orientation of the chest (shoulder line). This offset will result in a temporary stored tension (potential energy) in the core muscles. This should produced a faster uncoiling (or a greater torque) of the upper torso when the core tension is released.

Two ways to accomplish this. One is to preset the hips partially open (often with an open or semi-open stance). In this case, the upper torso should be coiled more than the hips, for the prep phase, in order to create the stored tension in the core.

If, initially, there is no offset or there is insufficient separation on the prep phase, there is another way to accomplish the desired effect. In this case, the hips should start to uncoil prior to the uncoiling of the upper torso. This will produced the desired separation angle.

Fairhit · Jan 1, 2023

Shroud said:
Maybe its me but lots of elements are fine but I have a hard time advocating the straight arm component. Just seems like its an elbow injury waiting to happen.

most players arm the ball. Its all arm. Fed uses the kinetic chain and well that is a whole different animal and helps with the straight arm.

ok. Full disclosure I am speculating about the straight arm since I dont hit like that…

I hit naturally with a straight arm, it feels more solid at contact. There was a time when I hadn't played in a while and my timing was off, the ball was incoming to fast and I was hitting with bent elbow, those were fantastic forehands for me fast and spinny but the straight arm is what feels natural to me and what I feel I can control better.

gold325 · Jan 1, 2023

yoyofly said:
Hello,

I'm wondering is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level. I'm also using eastern grip, when I review my recordings, I can see especially that my take back, back swing, wrist flip and racket lag are quite different from Federer, well, that's almost everything. Can I just try to copy everything from him blindly or are his movements too advanced for me still? Thank you.

Too advanced for even "advanced" players to copy correctly.

But copy the following few things for sure.

1. Copy his intense ball focus before and after contact though. It works really well no matter what technique i guess.

2. Try to learn his footwork patterns and ball spacing... work as hard as you can on foot speed, split steps, dont overuse open stance etc..

3. See the way he has a complete coil on both wings and they way he hits flat balls and loopy balls with full strokes.

Im sure there are other things

Chas Tennis · Jan 1, 2023

ballmachineguy said:
What are you talking about?

"I have shown ATP separation many times in videos and also WTA players."

Search Google or forum search - forehand separation Chas
Google - forehand separation ITF

I'm too busy to keep finding and writing the same information over and over again when my best posts are there and searchable.

Chas Tennis · Jan 1, 2023

gold325 said:
Too advanced for even "advanced" players to copy correctly.

But copy the following few things for sure.

1. Copy his intense ball focus before and after contact though. It works really well no matter what technique i guess.

2. Try to learn his footwork patterns and ball spacing... work as hard as you can on foot speed, split steps, dont overuse open stance etc..

3. See the way he has a complete coil on both wings and they way he hits flat balls and loopy balls with full strokes.

Im sure there are other things

"Too advanced for even "advanced" players to copy correctly." Do you have some references on this conclusion?

Federer is doing specific forehand sub-motions in his strokes. They are similar to other ATP player's sub-motions with near straight arm forehands.

I observe the videos and try to identify some of these sub-motions. Many of these pro sub-motions are well known and have been described by tennis researchers.

Rec players' strokes, on the other hand, are DIY (Do It Yourself.) and have a great deal of variations, are poor performance, and nobody can present descriptions of most of what is being done. You really don't have much to go on for techniques vs all that is available for best pro techniques. Can anyone here identify what is wrong with the pro techniques but that is being done in the rec players techniques? Of course, the performance levels are much higher for the pros.

The pro players do rapid and powerful uppermost body turning for their ground stroke drives. The rec players mostly do not. That seems the most significant technique difference to me.

Watch the line between Swaitek's 2 shoulders. In the video thumbnail picture, the line between her 2 hips and her 2 shoulders shows forehand separation angle as described in some internet references. (I'm not inventing the separation stuff.) Start watching those pro lines and the lines between the two shoulders at your own courts.

WARNING - Don't do trunk twisting if it would be stressful for you.

SystemicAnomaly · Jan 1, 2023

Chas Tennis said:
"I have shown ATP separation many times in videos and also WTA players."

Search Google or forum search - forehand separation Chas
Google - forehand separation ITF

I'm too busy to keep finding and writing the same information over and over again when my best posts are there and searchable.

You are still leaving out the word, angle, in forehand separation angle. That may or may not have led to some confusion.

gold325 · Jan 1, 2023

Chas Tennis said:
"Too advanced for even "advanced" players to copy correctly." Do you have some references on this conclusion?

My opinion based on this I have seen ove the last 3 years including slow motion video. Most people try to copy the look and that I what I was referring to.

Also notice the " " on the second advanced.

Also real advanced players dont really massively overhaul technique AFAIK.

Chas Tennis · Jan 1, 2023

gold325 said:
My opinion based on this I have seen ove the last 3 years including slow motion video. Most people try to copy the look and that I what I was referring to.

Also notice the " " on the second advanced.

Also real advanced players dont really massively overhaul technique AFAIK.

If you have seen some sub-motion in Federer's strokes that appears to be too advanced to be done by others, what is it? I've heard of these before but have never seen the techniques themselves or heard them identified. Find a video and and give the time of the video, we can investigate. Nadal has a straight arm forehand and applies especially heavy top spin by racket head speed and racket path leading to impact, that might be too advanced to be copied by others. ? There is also a difference between using a technique and high or exceptional performance.

gold325 · Jan 1, 2023

Chas Tennis said:
If you have seen some sub-motion in Federer's strokes that appear to be too advanced to be done by others, what is it? I've heard of these before but have never seen the techniques themselves. Find a video and and give the time of the video. Nadal has a straight arm forehand and applies especially heavy top spin by racket head speed and racket path leading to impact, that might be too advanced to be copied by others. ?

"Can I just try to copy everything from him blindly or are his movements too advanced for me still?"

When someone says this they are looking for THE LOOK. And going just for the look at a 3.5 level is meaningless.

It is the combination of the sub-motions (in a smooth automatic way) you talk about that make the forehand that is the subject here - so copying sub motion by sub motion is meaningless as well.

Can you show evidence of anyone who has copied Federer's forehand (even just the look) any any level? God knows 10s of thousands of people must have tried.

Can anyone do it perfectly even without hitting a tennis ball?

Random thoughts

Can you have a Federer forehand without the eastern grip. How many good juniors play with an eastern grip?
Can anyone at really change their forehand (the look) once they are past the 4.5 level? Can anyone even really really change their forehand (the look) past the 3.5 level?
In theory some child that is showing talent and a straight arm could be taught the Federer forehand by an egotistical parent who is a major Federer fan. But would that be of any service to that child? A child with that level of talent would be better served to naturally develop a forehand while making sure the fundamentals are maintained.
If Federer himself was a junior now - would his forehand looked in 2015+? would he even have a one hand backhand?

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

gold325 said:
"Can I just try to copy everything from him blindly or are his movements too advanced for me still?"

When someone says this they are looking for THE LOOK. And going just for the look at a 3.5 level is meaningless.

It is the combination of the sub-motions (in a smooth automatic way) you talk about that make the forehand that is the subject here - so copying sub motion by sub motion is meaningless as well.

Can you show evidence of anyone who has copied Federer's forehand (even just the look) any any level? God knows 10s of thousands of people must have tried.

Can anyone do it perfectly even without hitting a tennis ball?

Random thoughts

Can you have a Federer forehand without the eastern grip. How many good juniors play with an eastern grip?

Can anyone at really change their forehand (the look) once they are past the 4.5 level? Can anyone even really really change their forehand (the look) past the 3.5 level?

In theory some child that is showing talent and a straight arm could be taught the Federer forehand by an egotistical parent who is a major Federer fan. But would that be of any service to that child? A child with that level of talent would be better served to naturally develop a forehand while making sure the fundamentals are maintained.

If Federer himself was a junior now - would his forehand looked in 2015+? would he even have a one hand backhand?

You are taking the fun out of it lol

ballmachineguy · Jan 1, 2023

SystemicAnomaly said:
Chas omitted an important word there. He should have referred to the separation angle for a forehand groundstroke. This refers to the offset between the orientation the hips and the orientation of the chest (shoulder line). This offset will result in a temporary stored tension (potential energy) in the core muscles. This should produced a faster uncoiling (or a greater torque) of the upper torso when the core tension is released.

Two ways to accomplish this. One is to preset the hips partially open (often with an open or semi-open stance). In this case, the upper torso should be coiled more than the hips, for the prep phase, in order to create the stored tension in the core.

If, initially, there is no offset or there is insufficient separation on the prep phase, there is another way to accomplish the desired effect. In this case, the hips should start to uncoil prior to the uncoiling of the upper torso. This will produced the desired separation angle.

I knew what he meant. Don’t believe it works like that.
The hips will move to a spot that allows the hitting shoulder to use as a base to pull towards. Mostly they are getting to a spot that allows an out-front contact point. Sometimes the hip movement looks like it happens before the shoulders, other times at the same time.
Trying to build a stretch (store energy) would take so much rotation and time waiting for it to happen that it would cause problems with the stroke. Definitely a loss of control of the ball depth and velocity.

SystemicAnomaly · Jan 1, 2023

ballmachineguy said:
I knew what he meant. Don’t believe it works like that.
The hips will move to a spot that allows the hitting shoulder to use as a base to pull towards. Mostly they are getting to a spot that allows an out-front contact point. Sometimes the hip movement looks like it happens before the shoulders, other times at the same time.
Trying to build a stretch (store energy) would take so much rotation and time waiting for it to happen that it would cause problems with the stroke. Definitely a loss of control of the ball depth and velocity.

Don't quite know what you are trying to say but I stand by what I posted.

ballmachineguy · Jan 1, 2023

SystemicAnomaly said:
Don't quite know what you are trying to say but I stand by what I posted.

Me too.

Tan Tennis · Jan 1, 2023

Go for it! You may or may not (more likely) get to it, but at least you will learn some important things that could help with your groundstrokes such as preparation, body weight transfer, extended arm, rotation on follow through, and taking the ball early. Some coaches say Federer's forehand is not the best to copy, but what I learn from trying to copy him helps me a lot with the fundamentals. Even though my forehand doesn't end up exactly like his, I still feel like it improves a lot over time.

Chas Tennis · Jan 1, 2023

SystemicAnomaly said:
You are still leaving out the word, angle, in forehand separation angle. That may or may not have led to some confusion.

Separation means that there is an angle and independent movement of the line between the 2 shoulders and the line between the two 2 hips. There were more pictures of separation shown in the early 2000's.

If you search for separation ITF, I believe that you will see the word 'separation' and 'separation angle' both used. ? Separation angle is the angle as viewed from roughly above. I did a quick search and it was not easy to find some of the sites I had found.

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

The key is to understand what (and why) Federer does at different stages of his FH. Even if you then can’t mimic how he does it, a good understanding of the breakdown of his shot will help you.

- Watch how he recovers (how he changes direction, where he recovers to after different shots he hits) after a shot and the footwork (big steps, small steps, type of steps) he uses to run to the ball
- Watch how he holds his racquet and his head when he moves to the ball
- Watch his grip and how he uses his offhand on the racquet to change to the proper grip
- Watch how he stops - note the position of the back foot (including the heel) and the front foot along with how his upper body is turned
- Watch how much spacing he has from the ball (where he stops) when he stops
- Watch how he coils his body (offhand position, back hip position and front shoulder position)
- Watch his leg drive and how much he flexes his knees including the back knee - will vary based on his expected contact height
- Watch his takeback including his wrist and elbow positions
- Watch how he drops his racquet into the slot and the timing of it
- Watch the forward weight transfer method he uses in both open and closed/neutral stances - front leg and/or torso
- Watch how he moves his front foot (or not) based on whether he will hit an open or closed/neutral stance
- Watch his forward swing and how he varies it based on the shot he is hitting - pace, spin, trajectory, target.
- Watch the balance between forward velocity and vertical velocity of his swing for different shots
- Watch his followthrough and how he varies it based on the shot he is hitting - pace, spin, trajectory, target

If you understand the principles of why he does what he does at each stage, you are well on your way to mastering the FH. In many ways, the BH can be broken down in the same way and analyzed also. If it helps, compile a collection of still images of Federer at each stage of his shot and use it as a mental checklist or visualization tool.

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
The key is to understand what (and why) Federer does at different stages of his FH. Even if you then can’t mimic how he does it, a good understanding of the breakdown of his shot will help you.

- Watch how he recovers (how he changes direction, where he recovers to after different shots he hits) after a shot and the footwork (big steps, small steps, type of steps) he uses to run to the ball
- Watch how he holds his racquet and his head when he moves to the ball
- Watch his grip and how he uses his offhand on the racquet to change to the proper grip
- Watch how he stops - note the position of the back foot (including the heel) and the front foot along with how his upper body is turned
- Watch how much spacing he has from the ball (where he stops) when he stops
- Watch how he coils his body (offhand position, back hip position and front shoulder position)
- Watch his leg drive and how much he flexes his knees including the back knee - will vary based on his expected contact height
- Watch his takeback including his wrist and elbow positions
- Watch how he drops his racquet into the slot and the timing of it
- Watch the forward weight transfer method he uses in both open and closed/neutral stances
- Watch how he moves his front foot based on whether he will hit an open or closed/neutral stance
- Watch his forward swing and how he varies it based on the shot he is hitting - pace, spin, trajectory, target.
- Watch the balance between forward velocity and vertical velocity of his swing for different shots
- Watch his followthrough and how he varies it based on the shot he is hitting - pace, spin, trajectory, target

If you understand the principles of why he does what he does at each stage, you are well on your way to mastering the FH. In many ways, the BH can be broken down in the same way and analyzed also. If it helps, compile a collection of still images of Federer at each stage of his shot and use it as a mental checklist or visualization tool.

I almost pressed the report button

As the OP was asking from the 3.5 pov, not 5.5.

Chas Tennis · Jan 1, 2023

SystemicAnomaly said:
You are still leaving out the word, angle, in forehand separation angle. That may or may not have led to some confusion.

SystemicAnomaly said:
Chas omitted an important word there. He should have referred to the separation angle for a forehand groundstroke. This refers to the offset between the orientation the hips and the orientation of the chest (shoulder line). This offset will result in a temporary stored tension (potential energy) in the core muscles. This should produced a faster uncoiling (or a greater torque) of the upper torso when the core tension is released.

Two ways to accomplish this. One is to preset the hips partially open (often with an open or semi-open stance). In this case, the upper torso should be coiled more than the hips, for the prep phase, in order to create the stored tension in the core.

If, initially, there is no offset or there is insufficient separation on the prep phase, there is another way to accomplish the desired effect. In this case, the hips should start to uncoil prior to the uncoiling of the upper torso. This will produced the desired separation angle.

I looked up separation on Google Scholar (a listing of publications often with biomechanical usage). All usages of 'separation' in 3 pages of Google Scholar finds were for 'separation angle'. Many to 0. In less formal usage, I have seen the term 'separation' used.

I usually talk about the lines between the 2 shoulders and 2 hips for clarity and show or indicate for the readers to view videos.

Here is a search for those that are interested in forehand separation posts or threads.

Search results for query: forehand separation

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

Fintft said:
I almost pressed the report button As the OP was asking from the 3.5 pov, not 5.5.

I always wondered what posters mean when they say they are copying a particular pro player then. To me, a shot breakdown includes all those sub-segments. So, which ones will a 3.5 player try to mimic when he goes around and says he is modeling his shot on Federer.

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
I always wondered what posters mean when they say they are copying a particular pro player then. To me, a shot breakdown includes all those sub-segments. So, which ones will a 3.5 player try to mimic when he goes around and says he is modeling his shot on Federer.

The ATP FH duh
Meaning compact takeback and lag, that's about it. At the most lol
Come back from the stratospheres lol
What is your level again? 5.5?

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

Fintft said:
What is your level again? 5.5?

No. I just learned tennis as a kid four decades ago under good coaches. Never tried to copy a pro then or since.

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
No.

5.0?

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

Fintft said:
5.0?

Maybe when I was in college, but I wasn’t in the US then and it is more of a guess. My room-mate and occasional hitting partner played for my country in the Junior Olympics though - he now is an assistant coach for the Davis Cup team. That was in the Eighties.

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
No. I just learned tennis as a kid four decades ago under good coaches. Never tried to copy a pro then or since.

If I see you on a tennis court, I am going to chase you with a heavy bat. Ahem, racquet...

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
Maybe when I was in college, but I wasn’t in the US then and it is more of a guess. My room-mate and occasional hitting partner played for my country in the Junior Olympics though - he now is an assistant coach for the Davis Cup team. That was in the Eighties.

And I was also sure that you were not American either. At least not in the development stages...

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

Fintft said:
If I see you on a tennis court, I am going to chase you with a heavy batt. Ahem, racquet...

I know how to use a heavy cricket bat better than a tennis racquet as that was my college sport. Tennis was just for fun.

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
I know how to use a heavy cricket bat better than a tennis racquet as that was my college sport.

I was planning on using it as a bat though. Or, I could just sit on you.
Oh, I see now. It bears mentioning though, that our national sport is a version of baseball and I was scholastic city champion ( batting mainly).

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

Fintft said:
I was planning on using it as a batt though. Or, I could just sit on you.

Batt

batt

https://www.google.com/search?clien...2ahUKEwippZ6fsKj8AhUaMUQIHY1xDbgQ3eEDegQICxAK
a piece of felted material used for lining or insulating items such as quilts and sleeping bags.

a piece of fiberglass used to insulate buildings.

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
Batt

batt

https://www.google.com/search?clien...2ahUKEwippZ6fsKj8AhUaMUQIHY1xDbgQ3eEDegQICxAK
a piece of felted material used for lining or insulating items such as quilts and sleeping bags.

a piece of fiberglass used to insulate buildings.

Nitpicking, again. Lol

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

Fintft said:
Nitpicking, again. Lol

On a serious note, you got to understand strokes down to this level of detail if you are ever going to teach anyone in your family the proper way to play tennis. They say that teaching is the highest form of learning and I agree with that as I analyzed strokes in much more detail when I was trying to teach tennis to my family members. It helped my tennis also.

The value of taking lessons from coaches is always understated on this forum, but a good coach will teach every one of these details including helping a student understand why they are important. The level that the student reaches will depend on their talent, learning aptitude, physical fitness, dedication to practice etc., but the learning path is the same.

Fintft · Jan 1, 2023

socallefty said:
On a serious note, you got to understand strokes down to this level of detail if you are ever going to teach anyone in your family the proper way to play tennis. They say that teaching is the highest form of learning and I agree with that as I analyzed strokes in much more detail when I was trying to teach tennis to my family members. It helped my tennis also.

The value of taking lessons from coaches is always understated on this forum, but a good coach will teach every one of these details including helping a student understand why they are important.

Your family is the exception, not the rule imho.
(Plus many people learn, at least partially, by feeling.)

Maybe an exceptional coach with an advanced student?
And again, they probably would not be Americans, nor Canadians.

socallefty · Jan 1, 2023

Fintft said:
And again, they probably would not be Americans, nor Canadians.

No idea why you are demeaning coaches in the US (and Canada) this way. I’ve met many coaches in my adult life at US clubs I’ve belonged to who are very good at breaking down and teaching technique. They don’t hang out on public courts teaching only adults though as they will have better paying jobs. Also, there are tons of tennis books that teach all these fundamentals in a detailed way and many of them that are in English are written by coaches from the US.

The coaches who have been through standardized coaching during their development and played at college/pro level typically have very good understanding of the foundational fundamentals of playing tennis. A smaller % of them might be good at designing customized drills and helping students improve systematically, but most will be able to diagnose quickly everything that is wrong or missing in a student’s strokes. Good coaches teach beginners differently than they teach adults who come in with many bad habits already as in the second case they might just try to fix a few basic fundamentals - they know that most adults who take an occasional lesson will not practice diligently anyway. If they have an opportunity to teach a beginner tennis from the start, they will go through all the fundamentals.

Fintft · Jan 2, 2023

socallefty said:
No idea why you are demeaning coaches in the US (and Canada) this way. I’ve met many coaches in my adult life at US clubs I’ve belonged to who are very good at breaking down and teaching technique. They don’t hang out on public courts teaching only adults though as they will have better paying jobs. Also, there are tons of tennis books that teach all these fundamentals in a detailed way and many of them that are in English are written by coaches from the US.

The coaches who have been through standardized coaching during their development and okayed at college/pro level typically have very good understanding of the foundational fundamentals of playing tennis. A smaller % of them might be good at designing drills and helping students improve, but most will be able to diagnose quickly everything that is wrong or missing in a student’s strokes. Good coaches teach beginners differently than they teach adults who come in with many bad habits already as in the second case they might just try to fix some fundamentals. If they have an opportunity to teach a beginner tennis from the start, they will go through all the fundamentals.

Still I haven't seen that level of detail at club level in the capital of Canada.

socallefty · Jan 2, 2023

Fintft said:
Still I haven't seen that level of detail at club level in the capital of Canada.

I bet there are better Ice hockey coaches there though compared to where I live. I live in a tennis hotbed in Southern California.

Fintft · Jan 2, 2023

socallefty said:
I bet there are better Ice hockey coaches there though compared to where I live.

Hooky and baseball.

Fairhit · Jan 2, 2023

socallefty said:
The key is to understand what (and why) Federer does at different stages of his FH. Even if you then can’t mimic how he does it, a good understanding of the breakdown of his shot will help you.

- Watch how he recovers (how he changes direction, where he recovers to after different shots he hits) after a shot and the footwork (big steps, small steps, type of steps) he uses to run to the ball
- Watch how he holds his racquet and his head when he moves to the ball
- Watch his grip and how he uses his offhand on the racquet to change to the proper grip
- Watch how he stops - note the position of the back foot (including the heel) and the front foot along with how his upper body is turned
- Watch how much spacing he has from the ball (where he stops) when he stops
- Watch how he coils his body (offhand position, back hip position and front shoulder position)
- Watch his leg drive and how much he flexes his knees including the back knee - will vary based on his expected contact height
- Watch his takeback including his wrist and elbow positions
- Watch how he drops his racquet into the slot and the timing of it
- Watch the forward weight transfer method he uses in both open and closed/neutral stances - front leg and/or torso
- Watch how he moves his front foot (or not) based on whether he will hit an open or closed/neutral stance
- Watch his forward swing and how he varies it based on the shot he is hitting - pace, spin, trajectory, target.
- Watch the balance between forward velocity and vertical velocity of his swing for different shots
- Watch his followthrough and how he varies it based on the shot he is hitting - pace, spin, trajectory, target

If you understand the principles of why he does what he does at each stage, you are well on your way to mastering the FH. In many ways, the BH can be broken down in the same way and analyzed also. If it helps, compile a collection of still images of Federer at each stage of his shot and use it as a mental checklist or visualization tool.

- Marry a woman called Mirka.
- Have two sets of twins.
- Become a Swiss citizen.
- Start using only Nike clothes.
- Change to Uniqlo.
- Hire Lubisic as a coach.

Then you may copy the take back and straight arm forehand.

Fairhit · Jan 2, 2023

Fintft said:
The ATP FH duh
Meaning compact takeback and lag, that's about it. At the most lol
Come back from the stratospheres lol
What is your level again? 5.5?

Wow, I was thinking the same, what's to really "copy" about it? The grip, the lag, the straight arm and the finish. That's it, for a 3.5 it is just that, anything else is trying to play like Roger and that can be mimicked but it won't help to win, just ask Dimitrov.

All those idiosyncrasies are not developed consciously, they come from working on weight transfer and hitting in front, they cannot be copied just for the sake of it, every individual develops their own style based on their capabilities, bio mechanics, body type, height, weight, ability and many more characteristics that make them an individual, that's what Federer did, he developed his idiosyncrasies as he trained.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 2, 2023

gold325 said:
Random thoughts

Can anyone at really change their forehand (the look) once they are past the 4.5 level? Can anyone even really really change their forehand (the look) past the 3.5 level?

it's not a binary answer: the higher the level, the longer they've been playing this way, and the older they are, the less likely they'll be able to make significant change.

Even a 3.5 likely won't be able to change if he has been playing for decades [the ones who do are outliers].

I know a career 4.0, though, who has been taking lessons with Karue and I've noticed significant improvements in his game and changes in his strokes. But he is an outlier: he is willing and able to allow the coach to break things down and rebuild them.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jan 2, 2023

socallefty said:
I always wondered what posters mean when they say they are copying a particular pro player then. To me, a shot breakdown includes all those sub-segments. So, which ones will a 3.5 player try to mimic when he goes around and says he is modeling his shot on Federer.

My take is that they are copying their perception of what the pro is doing. But there isn't necessarily any correlation with what the pro is actually doing because that depends on how perceptive they are.

socallefty · Jan 2, 2023

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
My take is that they are copying their perception of what the pro is doing. But there isn't necessarily any correlation with what the pro is actually doing because that depends on how perceptive they are.

Agree as I think a lower level player might not even recognize the majority of what makes a pro shot a pro-level shot unless he has an experienced mentor or coach.

Slicerman · Jan 2, 2023

I think this is how most tennis enthusiasts start learning forehand, by copying his forehand..
But no matter what you do.. don't copy his backhand, it won't turn out the way you think it will

Is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level?

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