Have people finally understood how gigantic the difference between an amazing player and a mediocre generation like this one is?

InsideOut900

InsideOut900

Legend
Currently Novak is 36 and has had one of the best seasons of his life.

It took Carlos zoning on grass for 4 sets to take him down and even there it was down to Novak missing crucial chances and playing below himself for big chunks of the match.

On clay, his weakest surface he was going toe to toe with Carlos, the guy who was like a 70-30 favourite before the match for most.

This is the same guy who was capable of playing better than this in 2020-2021, even better in 2018-2019 and even better in 2015-2016 and even better in 2011.

Just to understand, this is the worst an in-form Novak has played while still winning Slams and only a zoning performance can take him out in a very close match.

At this point I think people should be blind not to see where players like Medvedev or Carlos reside in terms of level compared to a truly great player from 10 or even 5 years ago.

Then we have Thiem, who played the tennis of his life in AO 20 against an underpar Djokovic and lost, barely beat Windovic in RG 19. This is thr Wawrinka of this generation.

Then the same guy got anihilated by Nadal at RG 19, a guy not even in his prime, which ended by 2014.

Now just backtracking how even the best of this generation does against heavily declined versions of these guys, where exactly does this put them compared to the guys of 2014-2015, or peak Fed's opponents in 2004-2005?

This should really put in perspective both just how incredible a player like Djokovic truly is if he can win Slams without breaking a sweat at 36 and at the same time how unbelievably bad this generation is. And ditto for Nadal and Fed.

I think ever saying player X is at the level of Big 3 should instantly lose someone all credibility, these guys would be low top 10 players at best if they played 10 years ago.
 
jackson vile

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Novak hasn’t slowed down at all, he’s not playing worse than his prime.

I would argue that Novak is still in his prime right now. You should give credit where credit is due.

I think Federer is a really good case study for this. It was very obvious when he had fallen out of his prime, making strange unforced errors so much it required a complete change of racket.

Same thing for Nadal, it was very obvious. He was burnt out nonstop injuries, and simply could not maintain the level anymore until he finally left the tennis stage.

Novak hasn’t experienced any of those issues, and is still in his prime. He’s incredibly proactive on keeping himself as healthy as possible, and growing himself as a tennis player as much as possible to address any weaknesses.
 
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M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
InsideOut900 said:
Currently Novak is 36 and has had one of the best seasons of his life.

It took Carlos zoning on grass for 4 sets to take him down and even there it was down to Novak missing crucial chances and playing below himself for big chunks of the match.

On clay, his weakest surface he was going toe to toe with Carlos, the guy who was like a 70-30 favourite before the match for most.

This is the same guy who was capable of playing better than this in 2020-2021, even better in 2018-2019 and even better in 2015-2016 and even better in 2011.

Just to understand, this is the worst an in-form Novak has played while still winning Slams and only a zoning performance can take him out in a very close match.

At this point I think people should be blind not to see where players like Medvedev or Carlos reside in terms of level compared to a truly great player from 10 or even 5 years ago.

Then we have Thiem, who played the tennis of his life in AO 20 against an underpar Djokovic and lost, barely beat Windovic in RG 19. This is thr Wawrinka of this generation.

Then the same guy got anihilated by Nadal at RG 19, a guy not even in his prime, which ended by 2014.

Now just backtracking how even the best of this generation does against heavily declined versions of these guys, where exactly does this put them compared to the guys of 2014-2015, or peak Fed's opponents in 2004-2005?

This should really put in perspective both just how incredible a player like Djokovic truly is if he can win Slams without breaking a sweat at 36 and at the same time how unbelievably bad this generation is. And ditto for Nadal and Fed.

I think ever saying player X is at the level of Big 3 should instantly lose someone all credibility, these guys would be low top 10 players at best if they played 10 years ago.
Click to expand...

I do agree with this. Only change would be this isn't even a mediocre generation. It is something far below that. In fact we have had several in a row now and it leads us to where we are today. The ****show they try and pass off a tennis tour on the mens side.
 
P

phl92

Hall of Fame
jackson vile said:
Novak hasn’t slowed down at all, he’s not playing worse than his prime.

I would argue that Novak is still in his prime right now. You should give credit where credit is due.

I think Federer is a really good case study for this. It was very obvious when he had fallen out of his prime, making strange unforced errors so much it required a complete change of racket.

Same thing for Nadal, it was very obvious. He was burnt out nonstop injuries, and simply could not maintain the level anymore until he finally left the tennis stage.

Novak hasn’t experienced anyone of those issues, and is still in his prime. He’s incredibly proactive on keeping himself as healthy as possible, and growing himself as a tennis player as much as possible to address any weaknesses.
Click to expand...
This
 
daggerman

daggerman

Hall of Fame
Novak's not even an amazing player tbh. Just lucky to be playing in this era. Is he even better than James Blake? Maybe, maybe not.

It is what it is.

#24.
 
Phenomenal

Phenomenal

Professional
Beside Carlos i partly agree. While i rarely watched Djokovic this year. I think he is much more vulnerable this year than 20-21 like you say. Would be visible to all of us had his opponents take some of their chances. I normally don't say but players are really pathetic specially this year. I was thinking similiar in 20 and 21 but now i understand players can perform well at the age of 35. Bıg 3 in their 35 is still better than probably any non ATG's?

In AO this year Djokovic was a beast again like always in Australia. So hard to take him out there but outside of it he is much more vulnerable. Probably would have been the case today had he played Alcaraz instead of Med who couldn't do damage. Probably worst offensive top 10 tennis player atleast with his FH.


For Alcaraz while i don't think he is comparable to prime Big3 but he is not in his prime yet. Also so young just played few seasons and already won a big match. Besides Alcaraz Thiem was better than all other players last gens including Med for me. Thiem straightsetted him in 2020 USO(The guy who played 3 USO final) Might be better than Alcaraz aswell on clay and hard.

Medvedev style just so weird.
I like his defending but I haven't seen any top player or any player has this bad at finishing points with their forehand inside the court. This is despite he probably improved his forehand bit.
 
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Phenomenal

Phenomenal

Professional
Med is unbearable when he makes more errors than his usual. Djokovic from 2011 with more shot tolerance probably would win 3-0 against Med every match. But todays match could have turned had Med won second. After 2-0 Djokovic was more relax and confident while Med the opposite.
 
ShowStealer

ShowStealer

Rookie
Yeah because if novak was facing people like chang moya rafter bruguera and courier he would have more trouble or maybe you think players like hewitt roddick and safin would have stopped him
 
MrFlip

MrFlip

Professional
Ahhh no. This board correctly said that Carlos is the new Djokovic, Nadal and Federer all in one.
 
Phenomenal

Phenomenal

Professional
Tbh probably outside of Australia even at this stage in slams fit Nadal would have been Djokovic's biggest threat together with Alcaraz this year. It's that bad.
 
RaulRamirez

RaulRamirez

Legend
I just wrote most of this in a private conversation, and it's so brilliant (kidding, but I think it's good and true) that I'm replying with it here:

Sometimes (if not always) people just have to give credit to the winners of matches and tourneys.
I'm surprised that Med didn't show a little more variety today, but his plan and execution was almost flawless in the semis versus Alcaraz. It's hard to gauge these things, but that still may have been the best level I saw from any player this Open...I didn't see every match, of course, but did view a decent chunk of the action.

As it was unfolding, I felt that today's final would be decided by the second set, and we'll never know what would have happened if Med had pulled it out. A straight-set victory, but still, a small margin there in what appeared to be the decisive second set. Would Novak have had enough to win two of the next three sets? To his credit, he didn't have to.

Would Carlos have been good enough to defeat Novak in the final? We'll never know, and to Med's credit, Novak didn't have to face him. In the end, this was a glorified three-man tourney among the three best current hard-court players in the world. It helped Novak that Carlos drew Med (and vice versa) in the semis, as it arguably helped Med that Novak drew a very strong Zverev in the 2021 semis. Small margins at the top.

It's okay to feel that you want the competition to be stronger than it is. But to base your (I say "your" very collectively) whole fandom on that lament, and to create a new reality in which you're never wrong with your biases seems awfully strange to me.
 
Mr.Lob

Mr.Lob

G.O.A.T.
Physically, 9 years younger Med had much more in the tank than Djokovic. But, as Novak has said, how much are you willing to suffer to get the win? How much do you believe in yourself? That is what separates Djokovic, Nadal and Fed from the wannabees.
 
ffw2

ffw2

Hall of Fame
djp-1-1.jpg
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I agree with most of the OP but disagree about 2023 being the worst of an in form Djokovic. 2023 RG was clearly better than 2019 and 2020 imo. 2023 Wimbledon was worse than 2018 and 2019, but it was a weird tournament where his level went down in the final. We don't usually see that from him in a Wimbledon final. 2023 AO he was hampered and still hammered the field. Hard to judge his level against other years where he was 100% fit.
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
I agree with most of the OP but disagree about 2023 being the worst of an in form Djokovic. 2023 RG was clearly better than 2019 and 2020 imo. 2023 Wimbledon was worse than 2018 and 2019, but it was a weird tournament where his level went down in the final. We don't usually see that from him in a Wimbledon final. 2023 AO he was hampered and still hammered the field. Hard to judge his level against other years where he was 100% fit.
Click to expand...
RG 2019's Nadal would have annihilated RG 2023's version of Djokovic.
He was lucky, although you all deny it, that Alcaraz suffered those cramps; after that moment, which was being an even match with a slight tendency for the young Spanish prodigy, there were no longer any equivalences and the tournament champion was decided.
:D
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
DSH said:
RG 2019's Nadal would have annihilated RG 2023's version of Djokovic.
He was lucky, although you all deny it, that Alcaraz suffered those cramps; after that moment, which was being an even match with a slight tendency for the young Spanish prodigy, there were no longer any equivalences and the tournament champion was decided.
:D
Click to expand...
Based on how Djokovic played in the SF in 2019, he would have hammered him there as well. Plus, it's Nadal at RG. He wasn't lucky at all and that's a lame excuse. Alcaraz cramped because of the pressure and who was on the other side of the net, and he admitted that. How is that lucky if he couldn't mentally handle the occassion?
 
Nadalgaenger

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
InsideOut900 said:
Currently Novak is 36 and has had one of the best seasons of his life.

It took Carlos zoning on grass for 4 sets to take him down and even there it was down to Novak missing crucial chances and playing below himself for big chunks of the match.

On clay, his weakest surface he was going toe to toe with Carlos, the guy who was like a 70-30 favourite before the match for most.

This is the same guy who was capable of playing better than this in 2020-2021, even better in 2018-2019 and even better in 2015-2016 and even better in 2011.

Just to understand, this is the worst an in-form Novak has played while still winning Slams and only a zoning performance can take him out in a very close match.

At this point I think people should be blind not to see where players like Medvedev or Carlos reside in terms of level compared to a truly great player from 10 or even 5 years ago.

Then we have Thiem, who played the tennis of his life in AO 20 against an underpar Djokovic and lost, barely beat Windovic in RG 19. This is thr Wawrinka of this generation.

Then the same guy got anihilated by Nadal at RG 19, a guy not even in his prime, which ended by 2014.

Now just backtracking how even the best of this generation does against heavily declined versions of these guys, where exactly does this put them compared to the guys of 2014-2015, or peak Fed's opponents in 2004-2005?

This should really put in perspective both just how incredible a player like Djokovic truly is if he can win Slams without breaking a sweat at 36 and at the same time how unbelievably bad this generation is. And ditto for Nadal and Fed.

I think ever saying player X is at the level of Big 3 should instantly lose someone all credibility, these guys would be low top 10 players at best if they played 10 years ago.
Click to expand...
It’s a paradox really. Without truly great players the “mediocre” guys like Roddick or Med pick up half a dozen slams and become borderline ATGs. Murray might have been challenging Pete’s slam record had Big 3 not been there…
 
T

Technology Ruined Tennis

Hall of Fame
Aside from clay, I don't really see Joker as being that much better than Fed at this age. Fed would be putting up similar slam numbers against this field, he already proved it in '17/'18. (that field, while maybe a bit better than the current one, was not very deep either)

Joker's string of good health (still waiting for that documentary) has been his best asset.
 
C

cortadew

Rookie
Technology Ruined Tennis said:
Aside from clay, I don't really see Joker as being that much better than Fed at this age. Fed would be putting up similar slam numbers against this field, he already proved it in '17/'18. (that field, while maybe a bit better than the current one, was not very deep either)

Joker's string of good health (still waiting for that documentary) has been his best asset.
Click to expand...
I doubt old Fed would be beating Carlitos
 
F

FeroBango

Hall of Fame
jackson vile said:
Novak hasn’t slowed down at all, he’s not playing worse than his prime.

I would argue that Novak is still in his prime right now. You should give credit where credit is due.

I think Federer is a really good case study for this. It was very obvious when he had fallen out of his prime, making strange unforced errors so much it required a complete change of racket.

Same thing for Nadal, it was very obvious. He was burnt out nonstop injuries, and simply could not maintain the level anymore until he finally left the tennis stage.

Novak hasn’t experienced any of those issues, and is still in his prime. He’s incredibly proactive on keeping himself as healthy as possible, and growing himself as a tennis player as much as possible to address any weaknesses.
Click to expand...
To those familiar with cricket, fast bowling is the toughest job in the sport yet James Anderson excelled like never before in his 30s, into his early 40s. Novak much like Jimmy, has defied age and it's silly to use their age as an reason to denigrate the competition.

The competition itself can be mediocre -- like Med today -- but it's beyond me how people cannot see that he's almost as fast as his peak years, with significantly more variety added to his game.
 
M

Midaso240

Legend
FeroBango said:
To those familiar with cricket, fast bowling is the toughest job in the sport yet James Anderson excelled like never before in his 30s, into his early 40s. Novak much like Jimmy, has defied age and it's silly to use their age as an reason to denigrate the competition.

The competition itself can be mediocre -- like Med today -- but it's beyond me how people cannot see that he's almost as fast as his peak years, with significantly more variety added to his game.
Click to expand...
This is true, it's his recovery times that won't be what they were 10-15 years ago. If he had a slam where he played 3 5 set matches in a row to make the final, he'd be absolutely cooked in the final and carved up in straight sets like in the 2021 USO final. But right now, there's just a lack of players who can even take a set let alone 2 or 3
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Nadalgaenger said:
It’s a paradox really. Without truly great players the “mediocre” guys like Roddick or Med pick up half a dozen slams and become borderline ATGs. Murray might have been challenging Pete’s slam record had Big 3 not been there…
Click to expand...
But Med has utterly failed against mid 30's Djokodal, not their prime selves like Roddick did against prime Fed.

27 year old Roddick lost 16-14 in the 5th against prime Fed.

27 year old Med lost in easy straights to 36 year old Djokovic.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
FeroBango said:
To those familiar with cricket, fast bowling is the toughest job in the sport yet James Anderson excelled like never before in his 30s, into his early 40s. Novak much like Jimmy, has defied age and it's silly to use their age as an reason to denigrate the competition.

The competition itself can be mediocre -- like Med today -- but it's beyond me how people cannot see that he's almost as fast as his peak years, with significantly more variety added to his game.
Click to expand...
Even Djokovic himself said he had better movement 10 years ago.

And maybe we're not seeing it because we're also seeing how weak the 1989-2002 group has been.
 
F

FeroBango

Hall of Fame
mike danny said:
Even Djokovic himself said he had better movement 10 years ago.

And maybe we're not seeing it because we're also seeing how weak the 1989-2002 group has been.
Click to expand...
That's one way to look at it. But I would be inconsistent with my eyes if I saw Djokovic to be as physically declined as Fedal were around this time. Make no mistake they were exceptional and would have won slams now too (Nadal did last year), but Djokovic is still rapid, even if not as rapid as his absolute peak.

He says many things though including "36 is the new 26".

Having said that, if he'd not won set two against mugvedev, perhaps we'd have for real seen his age as the match went on.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
FeroBango said:
That's one way to look at it. But I would be inconsistent with my eyes if I saw Djokovic to be as physically declines as Fedal were around this time. Make no mistake they were exceptional and would have won slams but Djokovic is still rapid, even if not as rapid as his absolute peak
Click to expand...
He has still declined from his peak and prime and the fact that he's winning easily 90% of the time shows how terrible this group of players is. Gone are the days when even 2nd tier players could push him.
 
F

FeroBango

Hall of Fame
mike danny said:
He has still declined from his peak and prime and the fact that he's winning easily 90% of the time shows how terrible this group of players is. Gone are the days when even 2nd tier players could push him.
Click to expand...
Yeah I have no doubt that as much as I still love watching Tennis, we have gone quite a bit of distance away from years like 11,07 and the likes.

But at the same time, this Djokovic even if declined, is the best athlete today along with another person who really isn't in his prime.

I've introduced tennis to some of my pals here and without context of 2011, they see him for what he still is: a truly amazing mover.
 
Mike Sams

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
InsideOut900 said:
Currently Novak is 36 and has had one of the best seasons of his life.

It took Carlos zoning on grass for 4 sets to take him down and even there it was down to Novak missing crucial chances and playing below himself for big chunks of the match.

On clay, his weakest surface he was going toe to toe with Carlos, the guy who was like a 70-30 favourite before the match for most.

This is the same guy who was capable of playing better than this in 2020-2021, even better in 2018-2019 and even better in 2015-2016 and even better in 2011.

Just to understand, this is the worst an in-form Novak has played while still winning Slams and only a zoning performance can take him out in a very close match.

At this point I think people should be blind not to see where players like Medvedev or Carlos reside in terms of level compared to a truly great player from 10 or even 5 years ago.

Then we have Thiem, who played the tennis of his life in AO 20 against an underpar Djokovic and lost, barely beat Windovic in RG 19. This is thr Wawrinka of this generation.

Then the same guy got anihilated by Nadal at RG 19, a guy not even in his prime, which ended by 2014.

Now just backtracking how even the best of this generation does against heavily declined versions of these guys, where exactly does this put them compared to the guys of 2014-2015, or peak Fed's opponents in 2004-2005?

This should really put in perspective both just how incredible a player like Djokovic truly is if he can win Slams without breaking a sweat at 36 and at the same time how unbelievably bad this generation is. And ditto for Nadal and Fed.

I think ever saying player X is at the level of Big 3 should instantly lose someone all credibility, these guys would be low top 10 players at best if they played 10 years ago.
Click to expand...
Carlos had just turned 20 and playing in only his 4th grass event ever when he beat Novak at Wimbledon. That says more about the talent of Carlos.
As for clay, Novak would probably have 6-7 RG titles if not for Nadal.
Many times Novak played like garbage in majors as far back as 10-15 years ago and still made finals or won them.
I would bet my money on today's Novak to beat the Novak from 2008-2014 and 2016-2017 in many big matches. They would split a lot of matches.
You overrate the young Novak and underestimate today's Novak.
His volleys, net game, serve, and will to win are even better now than years back.
 
Mike Sams

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
darthrafa said:
the biggest problem is not how many djoker won. it is how easy he defeated all these young players.
Click to expand...
Hardly easy. Novak was grinding like hell in the second set today and was falling down or slumping a lot. Medvedev should've won the second set and should've adjusted his court positioning. He just didn't put the hammer down on Novak when he should've and kept staying so far back, letting Novak S&V and take easy points.
 
Mike Sams

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
mike danny said:
But Med has utterly failed against mid 30's Djokodal, not their prime selves like Roddick did against prime Fed.

27 year old Roddick lost 16-14 in the 5th against prime Fed.

27 year old Med lost in easy straights to 36 year old Djokovic.
Click to expand...
Don't be fooled by the scoreline. That was a very difficult match for Novak today. Medvedev has the talent and tools but not the mind or gameplan. He made a lot of mistakes.
 
darthrafa

darthrafa

Hall of Fame
Mike Sams said:
Hardly easy. Novak was grinding like hell in the second set today and was falling down or slumping a lot. Medvedev should've won the second set and should've adjusted his court positioning. He just didn't put the hammer down on Novak when he should've and kept staying so far back, letting Novak S&V and take easy points.
Click to expand...

3 straight set is hardly hard. ok i respect med is a decent player but as a whole it is very easy for AO, and FO (as well as those in the period where fred started playing badly and rafa injured). who posted great threats to djoker really?
 
F

FeroBango

Hall of Fame
Mike Sams said:
Carlos had just turned 20 and playing in only his 4th grass event ever when he beat Novak at Wimbledon. That says more about the talent of Carlos.
As for clay, Novak would probably have 6-7 RG titles if not for Nadal.
Many times Novak played like garbage in majors as far back as 10-15 years ago and still made finals or won them.
I would bet my money on today's Novak to beat the Novak from 2008-2014 and 2016-2017 in many big matches. They would split a lot of matches.
You overrate the young Novak and underestimate today's Novak.
His volleys, net game, serve, and will to win are even better now than years back.
Click to expand...
Yeah, some are so fixated with age that they aren't seeing what some of us are seeing. This is not even exclusive to Tennis. Tendulkar was an elite batsman til 40. James Anderson was significantly better in his 30s as a bowler (fast bowling is brutal on the human body) than he was in his 20s even if he'd lost the speed of youth.

Novak isn't even slow per se. Maybe slower than before but not much of decline I see there anyway. He's just ridiculously fast still
 
Mike Sams

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
darthrafa said:
3 straight set is hardly hard. ok i respect med is a decent player but as a whole it is very easy for AO, and FO (as well as those in the period where fred started playing badly and rafa injured). who posted great threats to djoker really?
Click to expand...
Hypothetically, ff this had been a SF match, Novak may not have the legs to grind in the final against Alcaraz. (let's pretend Medvedev had been on Novak's side of the draw).
Novak would be possibly exhausted similar to 2021 when he was pushed to 5 sets by Zverev in the SF and had little energy for the final against Medvedev.
The reality is that Djokovic received the easiest draw in history here at the USO. All the threats to him were placed on the opposite side. He was in peak form for the final.
 
Mike Sams

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
FeroBango said:
Yeah, some are so fixated with age that they aren't seeing what some of us are seeing. This is not even exclusive to Tennis. Tendulkar was an elite batsman til 40. James Anderson was significantly better in his 30s as a bowler (fast bowling is brutal on the human body) than he was in his 20s even if he'd lost the speed of youth.

Novak isn't even slow per se. Maybe slower than before but not much of decline I see there anyway. He's just ridiculously fast still
Click to expand...
The forum is just dumbfounded that a new Novak hasn't come along and taken out the current Novak. That's usually how it happens over the generations in tennis.
 
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