mike danny
Bionic Poster
Med struggling with S&V should at least contest the idea of absolute tennis evolution. This is a tactic that is 40+ years old, but still effective against a modern player.
Who is the greater volleyer - Alcaraz, Nadal or Djokovic?
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
Raz is, contrary to the oMg hyPe naysayers, the single most underrated player here to the point he comes third in netplay here among the three lmao
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
It’s not just RAFA. Go look at Med’s results in 2019 and compare them to 2023.
2019:
Washington F
Canada F
Cincy W (beat Joker)
USO F
Compared to
2023:
Washington DNP
Canada QF
Cincy R16
USO F
Pretty obvious difference in form/results.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Medvedev hit awful passing shots btw it isn’t just the return position. He got to hit plenty from reasonable areas of the court, some from inside the baseline, and those passing shots still sucked.
This is where his lack of topspin becomes an issue. You know who else uses a really deep return position? Nadal. And yet S&V on him is (unless you’re Dustin Brown) not a winning strategy… Wonder why that is?
This is where his lack of topspin becomes an issue. You know who else uses a really deep return position? Nadal. And yet S&V on him is (unless you’re Dustin Brown) not a winning strategy… Wonder why that is?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
So you agree he doesn't ever really serve and volley? Yet he's better according to you? Ok. Medvedev is always inept on return because of his return position but it takes skills to expose that like Alcaraz did at Wimbledon and Djokovic at the USO.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Medvedev beat Djokovic who was already having injury problems. I went to see him in USopen. He didn't even practice. He was having to slice every second backhand in the match vs kudla. And then withdrew vs Wawrinka. Medvedev was himself tired but won on the base of serve in Cincy.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Dude, the thread is about volleying in a vacuum not who’s better at S&V. Joker’s serve is so much better than either RAFA’s or Tiny Carl’s that it’s not even a discussion. Now if Joker kept his serve but was given either one their volleying abilities he’d be even better.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Lol so just ignore everything else as far as the rest of the NA HC season went I guess.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic even serves and volleys on 2nd serves. Saying Nadal has a worse serve is just an excuse. Nadal's volleying skills are overrated.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Dude again, this isn’t about serve and volley. This is just about volleying by itself. Both RAFA and Tiny Carl have better technique, feel, and sense around the net. If anyone is overrating a player’s volleying skills it’s you guys putting him up there with Edberg.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
Raz in his peak will probably be indeniably a better volleyer than both anyway. Doesn't matter where he stands now.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Carlos does have better natural feel and instincts than both when they were his age. He's also already coming in way more Nadal does. Saying he "looked like" Edberg does not equate to me saying he's on Edberg's level. You're just nitpicking with this. To me, Nadal has always been overrated as a volleyer because the best volleyers come to the net far more than he does. That's my opinion on that and we will just disagree.
Sometennisfan
New User
Nadal.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Saying that the guy looks like Edberg and putting up stats to try and back up that claim only to start backpedaling when called out on it isn’t nitpicking
RAFA is a better pure volleyer in my eyes. It’s just a very underutilized skill set of his. There’s things that people in all walks of life are good at that they choose not to pursue or use for various reasons. A personal example is that I probably would have been better at the 800 than the 400 in track but I absolutely hated the 800 so I chose not to do it.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
No you're just exaggerating and claiming something that wasn't said. 84% at the net in a USO final against a top 3 player and former USO champ is mind blowing. You can downplay it all you want and you can downplay Djokovic's volleying skills all you want as well, but it's clear they are top tier.Saying that the guy looks like Edberg and putting up stats to try and back up that claim only to start backpedaling when called out on it isn’t nitpicking
RAFA is a better pure volleyer in my eyes. It’s just a very underutilized skill set of his. There’s things that people in all walks of life are good at that they choose not to pursue or use for various reasons.
Yea underutilized is a good way to cover it. Lol. If he was that great at the net, he would have won Wimbledon once in the last 13 years.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
You’re looking strictly at the numbers instead of the root cause. Is Med a top 3 player? Yes. Did he play like a top 3 player? Imo no. The dude looked like a club player on return playing against S&V for the first time.
Again, you’re equating S&V with volleying in a vacuum. The serve is the most important ingredient in S&V and as has been mentioned as nauseam RAFA has one of the weakest serves for an ATG. It’s not like Joker’s been S&Ving at Wimby non-stop like he’s PETE anyway.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He sure didn't look like a club player when he took down defending champ Alcaraz. Funny how much he regressed as player in 2 days.
I'm just hearing a bunch of excuses. Let's move on.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Lol, why do we jump from “you are either a GOAT or a mug” here always?
it’s not like the only two options are Edberg or clueless at the net
From what I’ve seen the numbers back up that Novak is both volleying more and with more success. Even more importantly he is using it in the context of S&V to shorten points and prolong his career, with great success. That by itself is a huge improvement.
it’s not like the only two options are Edberg or clueless at the net
From what I’ve seen the numbers back up that Novak is both volleying more and with more success. Even more importantly he is using it in the context of S&V to shorten points and prolong his career, with great success. That by itself is a huge improvement.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
And it's better than Nadal right? That's all we are asking. Alcaraz is just here to be a side note.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
So a player’s form can’t fluctuate match to match?
Gotcha it’s ok that you think RAFA’s volleying is overrated, but God forbid I think you guys are overrating Joker.
jl809
Hall of Fame
Tough one.
For me, eye test would suggest Tiny will be the best of the 3 and that Nadal has had better touch than Djoker until this year.
But stats would suggest Djoker is the best of the 3 with higher net point % and net points % won than the other 2. But Alcaraz is super young so that figure will go up for him massively I reckon.
Djoker is clear of Nadal statswise though apart from this weird one called Net Effectiveness on tennis abstract
For me, eye test would suggest Tiny will be the best of the 3 and that Nadal has had better touch than Djoker until this year.
But stats would suggest Djoker is the best of the 3 with higher net point % and net points % won than the other 2. But Alcaraz is super young so that figure will go up for him massively I reckon.
Djoker is clear of Nadal statswise though apart from this weird one called Net Effectiveness on tennis abstract
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Put it into context in terms of the number of net approaches. In the 1991 USO final, Edberg was 66/94 at net. In 1992, he was 88/123.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
What is the number for Nole ?
Slightly Biased Nadal Fan
New User
The notion of Nadal only coming in on easy putaways feels a little misguided. This was fair game for the duration of most of his prime where he was still mentioned among the best volleyers on tour just bc the eye test on his touch but if we're going to fixate on how much better Djokovic has gotten at net in recent years, Rafa too as he got older, started taking the net with way greater frequency with his net efficiency not really dropping off. Just off the top of my head there's so many big matches for Oldal where charging the net was key like USO 2019 final (really any time he's played Medvedev aside from Canada 2019), USO 2018 qf vs Thiem, basically won the Alcaraz IW semi last yr on the back of unreal net play in the 3rd, was key in the 2022 RG qf against Novak, and was a feature of his hyper aggressive play against Delpo + Djokovic in the Wimby 18 qf+sf. Going back and checking, these are pretty much all matches he came in in the ballpark of 10 times a set and still around 70% conversion up there with no shortage of high degree of difficulty volleys. Djokovic can still be argued as the better volleyer at this point, but acting like Nadal doesn't have a case himself is disingenuous.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Agreed. Oldal was awesome. He was my favorite on hc and I was always interested in his matches because of his aggression. I think Djokovic now is slightly better at the net but oldal was pretty good like you mentioned. 63 times at the net at USOpen 2019 final.
One difference is s&v. That is big part of the aggressive game. Nole has been adding it since 2021 and Nadal rarely did so frequently.
coolcamden
Hall of Fame
Federer
Djokovic
Djokovic
btsjungkook
Professional
How come Alcaraz wasn't able to beat him then?
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Given his age, and that he's got more examples that I can recall of having to hit multiple volleys at net against a guy at the baseline I would say Alcaraz.
Djokovic and Nadal are basically putaway guys, and they're very good at it. Nadal has been doing it for longer though, and has a lesser serve to come in behind, but Novak has the better pickup game. Rafa will almost always make contact up above the net.
Djokovic and Nadal are basically putaway guys, and they're very good at it. Nadal has been doing it for longer though, and has a lesser serve to come in behind, but Novak has the better pickup game. Rafa will almost always make contact up above the net.
daggerman
Hall of Fame
The single biggest mystery in tennis to me is how Nadal's volleys came to be so highly regarded by people who know a lot about tennis. It's ludicrous. He's pretty heavy-handed, and needs to choke up on his racquet and impart tons of spin just to land a volley short in the court. Alcaraz's touch is orders of magnitude better, and even Djokovic has better touch.
I wonder if it's a case of over-correction. His volleys were probably underrated early on, but once pundits realized he was actually a decent volleyer, they exaggerated his "improvement."
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
37/44, you already gave it.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal has an exceptional drop volley though, which is why he uses it constantly instead of trying to hit deep into the corners.
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
The reason he volleyed so well was because Medvedev made it easy for him. Very few good passing shots from him.
On topic, Nadal > Alcaraz = Djokovic.
btsjungkook
Professional
I feel Djokovic has made more difficult volleys when making the initiative to go to the net than Nadal. You can argue that Nadal has better touch and feel but he mostly comes to the net to end a easy putaway than actually taking the initiative to volley.
Dominic & Andrey
Legend
Only on TTW.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
It’s almost like Tiny Carl has a much worse than Joker which meant he wasn’t able to exploit the Mad Lad’s return position to the same degree.
That and Med clearly played a better match in the SF than he did in the F. A non-ATG’s form/level is far more likely to fluctuate from match to match.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic only had one impressive volley in that match; the others were quite basic to perform for an elite player like him.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Nadal is not the first male player who comes to mind when thinking of "Incredible touch and finesse". To be sure, he made big strides in those skills to give Federer (and Federer fans who believed he was some sort of touch legend...heh-heh), but still not "incredible".
Beacon Hill
Hall of Fame
An overhead is a volley, so Djokovic is still down the list even though he's improved tremendously.
messiahrobins
Hall of Fame
Djokovic definitely. Ive thought that since 2010 that he is outstanding at the net apart from the overhead. Definitely better than nadal whomis overrated as a volleyer, he rarely punches a vollley away he tends to cut under the ball. Alcaraz can punch through but way too often he tries stop volleys.
Federrper the best of the lot this last 20 uears. Djokovic 2nd of the top atgs. Murray maybe 3rd.
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