Who had tougher competition: Federer 1st 10 Grand Slam Finals or Djokovic's last 10 Grand Slam finals?

NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Yesterday I saw a Djokovic fan claim 2006 USO Fed was a weak run from him form wise. So yeah you guys are the kings of trash takes. Medvedev's draw was an absolute joke, as well - a sadly common occurance in this dumpster fire of an era your favourite has been milking. The Agassi that turned on finals Sunday played obviously better than Medvedev against a vastly superior opponent...and BTW only an idiot would rank pretty much any Medvedev over 2004 Wimbledon Roddick but especially one that lost in straight sets LOL.
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Really? Obviously better? You do realize Agassi was 35 with back injections for pain and Medvedev was 25 and at his athletic peak right? They both served 58% so not particularly a high percentage but look at the difference in serve speeds:

Average 1st serve speed
Agassi - 107 mph
Medvedev - 121 mph

Average 2nd serve speed
Agassi - 85 mph
Medvedev - 99 mph

Agassi's serve got destroyed in this match where he only won 58% of his 1st serve points and we know Medvedev's serve is clearly superior. Agassi also ran out of gas, and was no match physically after the 3rd set. Both were good off the ground otherwise but I don't see how Agassi was obviously better because it sure doesn't look like it.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
Really? Obviously better? You do realize Agassi was 35 with back injections for pain and Medvedev was 25 and at his athletic peak right? They both served 58% so not particularly a high percentage but look at the difference in serve speeds:

Average 1st serve speed
Agassi - 107 mph
Medvedev - 121 mph

Average 2nd serve speed
Agassi - 85 mph
Medvedev - 99 mph

Agassi's serve got destroyed in this match where he only won 58% of his 1st serve points and we know Medvedev's serve is clearly superior. Agassi also ran out of gas, and was no match physically after the 3rd set. Both were good off the ground otherwise but I don't see how Agassi was obviously better because it sure doesn't look like it.
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Yes obviously better. Med served better and moved better this is true, but the qualitative difference in groundstroke potency and Medvedev's ridiculous court positioning nukes those advantages - plus Agassi returned like an absolute madman for stretches too. I don't see Medvedev bulling peak Fed off the ground or taking apart his serve like Agassi did at times, so at least give a balanced take instead of just calling them both "good" off the ground (y)

The best point in Medvedev's favour is his physicality but eventhen he was looking a little weary towards the end of the third - though obviously nothing like Agassi in the fourth. Comparing three sets versus three sets Agassi was playing clearly better. Don't see how that's really debatable.
 
RF-18

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
NatF said:
Yesterday I saw a Djokovic fan claim 2006 USO Fed was a weak run from him form wise. So yeah you guys are the kings of trash takes. Medvedev's draw was an absolute joke, as well - a sadly common occurance in this dumpster fire of an era your favourite has been milking. The Agassi that turned on finals Sunday played obviously better than Medvedev against a vastly superior opponent...and BTW only an idiot would rank pretty much any Medvedev over 2004 Wimbledon Roddick but especially one that lost in straight sets LOL.
Click to expand...

He won the title barely losing games. Agassi played like 3 straight five setters to get to the final. Seriously look in the mirror man telling me about **** takes when you claim that Agassi was better than a guy who won the title in a dominant fashion. And of course your justification is "trash competition". Like Agassi was facing world champs in Ginepri, wild card Blake and Malisse.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Yes obviously better. Med served better and moved better this is true, but the qualitative difference in groundstroke potency and Medvedev's ridiculous court positioning nukes those advantages - plus Agassi returned like an absolute madman for stretches too. I don't see Medvedev bulling peak Fed off the ground or taking apart his serve like Agassi did at times, so at least give a balanced take instead of just calling them both "good" off the ground (y)

The best point in Medvedev's favour is his physicality but eventhen he was looking a little weary towards the end of the third - though obviously nothing like Agassi in the fourth. Comparing three sets versus three sets Agassi was playing clearly better. Don't see how that's really debatable.
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Agassi was broken 4 times and allowed his opponent to win 44% of his return points. Medvedev was only broken once and served well, and just shut the door on Djokovic who didn't play a great match but Medvedev made it difficult for him.

It was really Agassi's returning that allowed him to challenge Federer but even there that shows weakness in Federer's overall performance. Federer was really good but he hit some embarrassing shanks off his backhand side and was really challenged off the ground against someone who was nowhere near him athletically or physically at that point in his career.

Medvedev was a far superior athlete in their respective matches so I don't see this. Agassi was capable of playing far better if he was stronger physically and did so just a few years prior in 2001 against Sampras. So obviously better for Agassi in that 2005 match verus Medvedev? I don't think so.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
RF-18 said:
He won the title barely losing games. Agassi played like 3 straight five setters to get to the final. Seriously look in the mirror man telling me about **** takes when you claim that Agassi was better than a guy who won the title in a dominant fashion. And of course your justification is "trash competition". Like Agassi was facing world champs in Ginepri, wild card Blake and Malisse.
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The fact you bring up Blake shows how little you know...like I said trash takes. Ginepri was pretty hot that summer as well BTW. You probably think Botic was a tougher opponent.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
Agassi was broken 4 times and allowed his opponent to win 44% of his return points. Medvedev was only broken once and served incredibly well, and just shut the door on Djokovic who didn't play a great match but Medvedev made it difficult for him.

It was really Agassi's returning that allowed him to challenge Federer but even there that shows weakness in Federer's overall performance. Federer was really good but he hit some embarrassing shanks off his backhand side and was really challenged off the ground against someone who was nowhere near him athletically or physically at that point in his career.

Medvedev was a far superior athlete in their respective matches so I don't see this. Agassi was capable of playing far better if he was stronger physically and did so just a few years prior in 2001 against Sampras. So obviously better for Agassi in that 2005 match verus Medvedev? I don't think so.
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Imagine trying to push a results based analysis when one opponent was peak 2005 Federer and the other was tired and mentally shattered 2021 Djokovic.

Federer did shank some backhands but Medvedev with his court positioning and weight of shot isn't going to have the same results as Agassi did. Think Fed was serving at like 80% as well, which shows the quality of the Agassi return. Like I said for the first three sets it's clear that Agassi was the stronger player.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Imagine trying to push a results based analysis when one opponent was peak 2005 Federer and the other was tired and mentally shattered 2021 Djokovic.

Federer did shank some backhands but Medvedev with his court positioning and weight of shot isn't going to have the same results as Agassi did. Think Fed was serving at like 80% as well, which shows the quality of the Agassi return. Like I said for the first three sets it's clear that Agassi was the stronger player.
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It's not a results based analysis. I watched the 2005 USO final in real time buddy. It's not like I never saw "peak Federer". You're just using a quite a bit of hyperbole here when talking about Agassi.

Federer served 76% and it was good serving, but his serve wasn't as great as it would be later on in his career. He's also not a huge server and his serve is not as big as Sampras', which Agassi dealt with his whole career. Serving that high percentage and getting broken 3 times shows some weakness in Federer's performance like I said earlier.

I just think you are very much underrating Medvedev in the 2021 USO final. The guy has been to 5 Slam finals so I think his best performance is definitely better than much declined physically Agassi with a stiff back who ran out of gas.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
DSH said:
Are you going to make a ranking of the level of the semifinalists from each of the two eras?
:D
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Not semifinalists necessarily. But Hewitt and Nalbandian at AO 2004 were better than Ferrero and Safin, Agassi at USO 2004 > Hewitt and Davydenko at AO 2006 > Baghdatis.
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
mike danny said:
Not semifinalists necessarily. But Hewitt and Nalbandian at AO 2004 were better than Ferrero and Safin, Agassi at USO 2004 > Hewitt and Davydenko at AO 2006 > Baghdatis.
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Hewitt's best version at the Australian Open was in 2005, the only time in his entire career in which he went beyond the fourth round and could only be stopped by the mercurial Safin.
:)
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Yes obviously better. Med served better and moved better this is true, but the qualitative difference in groundstroke potency and Medvedev's ridiculous court positioning nukes those advantages - plus Agassi returned like an absolute madman for stretches too. I don't see Medvedev bulling peak Fed off the ground or taking apart his serve like Agassi did at times, so at least give a balanced take instead of just calling them both "good" off the ground (y)

The best point in Medvedev's favour is his physicality but eventhen he was looking a little weary towards the end of the third - though obviously nothing like Agassi in the fourth. Comparing three sets versus three sets Agassi was playing clearly better. Don't see how that's really debatable.
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It's really not debatable when you consider the vast difference between 2005 Fed and 2021 Djokovic.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
DSH said:
Hewitt's best version at the Australian Open was in 2005, the only time in his entire career in which he went beyond the fourth round and could only be stopped by the mercurial Safin.
:)
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Yes, true, but him and Nalby combined performed better than Ferrero and Safin.
 
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NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
It's not a results based analysis. I watched the 2005 USO final in real time buddy. It's not like I never saw "peak Federer". You're just using a quite a bit of hyperbole here when talking about Agassi.

Federer served 76% and it was good serving, but his serve wasn't as great as it would be later on in his career. He's also not a huge server and his serve is not as big as Sampras', which Agassi dealt with his whole career. Serving that high percentage and getting broken 3 times shows some weakness in Federer's performance like I said earlier.

I just think you are very much underrating Medvedev in the 2021 USO final. The guy has been to 5 Slam finals so I think his best performance is definitely better than much declined physically Agassi with a stiff back who ran out of gas.
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I admit I'm perhaps doubling down on the Agassi vs Medvedev stuff. My real point of contention was the Med > Roddick one and the comment I saw yesterday saying that 2006 USO Fed was a medicore run.

I think you're misframing things still though. Of course Federer's serve got a bit better later but let's not act like it wasn't a great serve even then, his hold numbers in those years were still excellent - often at over 90% IIRC. So Agassi taking apart that serve is rather impressive even if it wasn't a Sampras level delivery. For a few sets Agassi was just seeing the ball insanely well.

Medvedev did play well, but I think he was allowed to play well by a very flat Djokovic. Whereas Agassi played at 110% for basically three sets against a very good opponent. Could Medvedev outlast Agassi and win h2h? Sure. But I think Agassi hit clearly higher highs and against a weaker opponent he may well have managed his energy reserves better as well.
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
NatF said:
I admit I'm perhaps doubling down on the Agassi vs Medvedev stuff. My real point of contention was the Med > Roddick one and the comment I saw yesterday saying that 2006 USO Fed was a medicore run.

I think you're misframing things still though. Of course Federer's serve got a bit better later but let's not act like it wasn't a great serve even then, his hold numbers in those years were still excellent - often at over 90% IIRC. So Agassi taking apart that serve is rather impressive even if it wasn't a Sampras level delivery. For a few sets Agassi was just seeing the ball insanely well.

Medvedev did play well, but I think he was allowed to play well by a very flat Djokovic. Whereas Agassi played at 110% for basically three sets against a very good opponent. Could Medvedev outlast Agassi and win h2h? Sure. But I think Agassi hit clearly higher highs and against a weaker opponent he may well have managed his energy reserves better as well.
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Agassi from the 2004 US Open would destroy peak Medvedev, not the one from 2005, who due to his limited physique would end up succumbing in 5 sets to any rival in that category.
:D
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
The irony of calling other peoples takes awful while simultaneously saying 05 Dre was better than 21 Med at the USO. Being wrong is fine but the arrogance and snobbery about being wrong is so off putting.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
The irony of calling other peoples takes awful while simultaneously saying 05 Dre was better than 21 Med at the USO. Being wrong is fine but the arrogance and snobbery about being wrong is so off putting.
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Your clown view of that match is well documented so take a seat.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
I admit I'm perhaps doubling down on the Agassi vs Medvedev stuff. My real point of contention was the Med > Roddick one and the comment I saw yesterday saying that 2006 USO Fed was a medicore run.

I think you're misframing things still though. Of course Federer's serve got a bit better later but let's not act like it wasn't a great serve even then, his hold numbers in those years were still excellent - often at over 90% IIRC. So Agassi taking apart that serve is rather impressive even if it wasn't a Sampras level delivery. For a few sets Agassi was just seeing the ball insanely well.

Medvedev did play well, but I think he was allowed to play well by a very flat Djokovic. Whereas Agassi played at 110% for basically three sets against a very good opponent. Could Medvedev outlast Agassi and win h2h? Sure. But I think Agassi hit clearly higher highs and against a weaker opponent he may well have managed his energy reserves better as well.
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Well Agassi is a great returner but if Sampras serves 76%, Agassi is not breaking him 3 times. He might not break him once like the '99 Wimbledon final or 2001 USO QF, and Sampras didn't serve near 76% in either match. So Federer's serve was great but became greater as he evolved as a player.

Medvedev in 2021-early 2022 at his top level was a dangerous opponent on hardcourt. He was very close to winning 2 Slams in a row. I just have to go with him here over 2005 USO Agassi. Fair enough on the rest.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
The irony of calling other peoples takes awful while simultaneously saying 05 Dre was better than 21 Med at the USO. Being wrong is fine but the arrogance and snobbery about being wrong is so off putting.
Click to expand...
Roddick AO 03 vs Thiem AO 20 10 matches? :p
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Med AO 21 final is probably like a 5/10 and Roddick Wim 04 is at least a 7.5/10. That's my only big pushback but it is a pretty big one.

What's clear is the difference here isn't as big as people think on whichever side at least just looking at the finals chosen here. Don't see how you could call it a landside for either.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
20 AO Fed was unironically less physically hampered. Moved clearly better. Yet clowns pushing he was this great opponent and talking down to people who won’t engage in the delusion. TTW has reached ridiculous level of cancer.
 
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NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
Well Agassi is a great returner but if Sampras serves 76%, Agassi is not breaking him 3 times. He might not break him once like the '99 Wimbledon final or 2001 USO QF, and he didn't serve near 76% in either match. So Federer's serve was great but became greater as he evolved as a player.

Medvedev in 2021-early 2022 at his top level was a dangerous opponent on hardcourt. He was very close to winning 2 Slams in a row. I just have to go with him here over 2005 USO Agassi. Fair enough on the rest.
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Why are we talking about Sampras? Lol. Sampras served better than even late career Federer, but even in 2005 it was still a great serve...I would also say that the switch to poly in 2002 definitely helped Agassi's groundstrokes as well btw, including on the return.

Med lost to a mediocre Nadal, don't see how that does anything but tank his stock. Admittedly Nadal is a bad match-up and Med was better at the USO.

But fine fair enough (y)
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
I can't take Guru down the hypothetical tree because he don't engage that much like a couple years back probably due to being fed up with the takes :-D
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
20 AO Fed was unironically less physically hampered. Moved clearly better. Yet clowns pushing he was this great opponent and talking down to people who won’t engage in the delusion. TTW has reached ridiculous level of cancer.
Click to expand...
AO 2020 Fed > USO 2005 Agassi, this is a good take in your world I take it?

The irony is almost too much.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
RS said:
I can't take Guru down the hypothetical tree because he don't engage that much like a couple years back probably due to being fed up with the takes :-D
Click to expand...
Guy is legit saying 2020 AO Fed > 2005 USO Agassi while talking about cancerous takes. Guy must have been hit in the head or something.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Guy is legit saying 2020 AO Fed > 2005 USO Agassi while talking about cancerous takes. Guy must have been hit in the head or something.
Click to expand...
He said he rates Agassi above somewhere else. I don't know about now it's not clear his post only talked movement.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
RS said:
I can't take Guru down the hypothetical tree because he don't engage that much like a couple years back probably due to being fed up with the takes :-D
Click to expand...
There's just no benefit to talking about it anymore. There was always some arrogance and obnoxiousness attached to Fed fans in these sorts of discussions but they've become so toxic it's not even enjoyable to discuss anymore. Go in any thread and you can see them talking about how dumb and awful Djokovic fans are and how they've monopolized bad takes and such. I don't care what people believe and would happily engage anyone who I think is wrong in discussions but there's just not even a shred of decency anymore.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
RS said:
He said he rates Agassi above somewhere else. I don't know about now it's not clear his post only talked movement.
Click to expand...
Wait don't read my post honestly you can only read and manipulate words to make all Djokovic fans seem as bad as you possibly can.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
RS said:
He said he rates Agassi above somewhere else. I don't know about now it's not clear his post only talked movement.
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I mean maybe I misread but even arguing it's close is moronic. He'll complain about Fed fans being toxic while ignoring how bad his own fanbase is. It's a joke. He wouldn't last 5 minutes as a Fed fan on this board these days.
 
AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
The Guru said:
There's just no benefit to talking about it anymore. There was always some arrogance and obnoxiousness attached to Fed fans in these sorts of discussions but they've become so toxic it's not even enjoyable to discuss anymore. Go in any thread and you can see them talking about how dumb and awful Djokovic fans are and how they've monopolized bad takes and such. I don't care what people believe and would happily engage anyone who I think is wrong in discussions but there's just not even a shred of decency anymore.
Click to expand...

You just don't like being called out on the disgraceful takes you produce. That's why you can't work up the nerve to reply to me, for example.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Lemme throw my hat in the ring here since the discussion is starting to get a little testy:

Fed’s first 10 Slam final opponents:
03 W Philippoussis
04 AO Safin
04 W Roddick
04 USO Hewitt
05 W Roddick
05 USO Agassi
06 AO Baghdatis
06 RG Nadal
06 W Nadal
06 USO Roddick

Djokovic’s last 10 Slam final opponents:

20 RG Nadal
21 AO Medvedev
21 RG Tsitsipas
21 W Berrettini
21 USO Medvedev
22 W Kyrgios
23 AO Tsitsipas
23 RG Ruud
23 W Alcaraz
23 USO Medvedev

Here’s how I’d sort the above 20 opponents:

1. 06 RG Nadal
2. 20 RG Nadal
3. 04 W Roddick
4. 06 W Nadal
5. 21 USO Medvedev
6. 05 USO Agassi (more impressive ballstriking than Med but stamina does him in)
7. 06 USO Roddick
8. 23 W Alcaraz
9. 05 W Roddick
10. 22 W Kyrgios
11. 21 RG Tsitsipas
12. 06 AO Baghdatis
13. 21 W Berrettini
14. 04 AO Safin
15. 03 W Philippoussis
16. 04 USO Hewitt (not nearly as bad as the double bagels made him appear but still mediocre)
17. 23 USO Medvedev
18. 23 AO Tsitsipas
19. 21 AO Medvedev
20. 23 RG Ruud

Fed’s 10 with a decisive advantage, though the bottom 8 are pretty close to each other.
 
AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
The Guru said:
I don't reply to you cuz you're a pos and not worth my time.
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Please, you're saying the most disgraceful things and then complaining about the reactions. Which is a shame because you can debate but your opinions have become progressively worse even as you're accusing Federer fans of the same. I bet I could provide you with a point-by-point description of how mediocre the 21 USO final really is and you would still find a way to deny.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Third Serve said:
Lemme throw my hat in the ring here since the discussion is starting to get a little testy:

Fed’s first 10 Slam final opponents:
03 W Philippoussis
04 AO Safin
04 W Roddick
04 USO Hewitt
05 W Roddick
05 USO Agassi
06 AO Baghdatis
06 RG Nadal
06 W Nadal
06 USO Roddick

Djokovic’s last 10 Slam final opponents:

20 RG Nadal
21 AO Medvedev
21 RG Tsitsipas
21 W Berrettini
21 USO Medvedev
22 W Kyrgios
23 AO Tsitsipas
23 RG Ruud
23 W Alcaraz
23 USO Medvedev

Here’s how I’d sort the above 20 opponents:

1. 06 RG Nadal
2. 20 RG Nadal
3. 04 W Roddick
4. 06 W Nadal
5. 21 USO Medvedev
6. 05 USO Agassi (more impressive ballstriking than Med but stamina does him in)
7. 06 USO Roddick
8. 23 W Alcaraz
9. 05 W Roddick
10. 22 W Kyrgios
11. 21 RG Tsitsipas
12. 06 AO Baghdatis
13. 21 W Berrettini
14. 04 AO Safin
15. 03 W Philippoussis
16. 04 USO Hewitt (not nearly as bad as the double bagels made him appear but still mediocre)
17. 23 USO Medvedev
18. 23 AO Tsitsipas
19. 21 AO Medvedev
20. 23 RG Ruud

Fed’s 10 with a decisive advantage, though the bottom 8 are pretty close to each other.
Click to expand...
Got a challenge for you.

Fed's last 10 finalists vs Djokovic's first 10 finalists in this ordering format ranked?
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
@The Guru let's leave 2005 Agassi aside, in the last couple of days I've seen takes such as:

AO 2021 Med > WI 2004 Roddick
AO 2010 Murray > AO 2005 Safin
USO 2006 Fed wasn't playing well
AO 2007 Fed was nothing special

These are the trash takes I'm referring to mostly. RF-18 was perhaps undeserving of my sharp reply but it was meant more generally.

Do you think these are reasonable takes?
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
@The Guru let's leave 2005 Agassi aside, in the last couple of days I've seen takes such as:

AO 2021 Med > WI 2004 Roddick
AO 2010 Murray > AO 2005 Safin
USO 2006 Fed wasn't playing well
AO 2007 Fed was nothing special

These are the trash takes I'm referring to mostly. RF-18 was perhaps undeserving of my sharp reply but it was meant more generally.

Do you think these are reasonable takes?
Click to expand...
UTS tbf lol
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
RS said:
Got a challenge for you.

Fed's last 10 finalists vs Djokovic's first 10 finalists in this ordering format ranked?
Click to expand...
Oh I think Djokovic gets this even before going into the analysis. I've never disputed the strong era he had to cope with to win his first several Slams; my gripes are limited to the 2018-present era (and perhaps a few smaller nitpicks with 2015-2016). But let's take a look:

Djokovic's first 10 Slam final opponents:
08 AO Tsonga
11 AO Murray
11 W Nadal
11 USO Nadal
12 AO Nadal
12 RG Nadal
12 USO Murray
13 AO Murray
13 W Murray
13 USO Nadal

The ranking:

1. 12 RG Nadal (I would only rate 2007 and 2008 Nadal higher, so this is a pretty firm #1)
2. 06 RG Nadal
3. 12 AO Nadal
4. 13 USO Nadal (some gripes with this match but Nadal was mostly solid)
5. 04 W Roddick
6. 13 W Murray
7. 06 W Nadal
8. 11 W Nadal
9. 11 USO Nadal
10. 05 USO Agassi (contemplated ranking this higher than 11 USO but decided against it)
11. 13 AO Murray
12. 06 USO Roddick
13. 08 AO Tsonga (this one hardly gets talked about and I don't remember it too well)
14. 12 USO Murray (hard to rate because of the wind but it was pretty low level at times)
15. 05 W Roddick
16. 06 AO Baghdatis
17. 04 AO Safin
18. 03 W Philippoussis
19. 04 USO Hewitt
20. 11 AO Murray (Murray was actually awful in this final, worse even than many of Djokovic's recent Slam final opponents; Fed in the SF saved the draw from mug status)

Pretty clear victory for Djokovic's first 10 Slam finals.
 
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The Guru

The Guru

Legend
NatF said:
@The Guru let's leave 2005 Agassi aside, in the last couple of days I've seen takes such as:

AO 2021 Med > WI 2004 Roddick
AO 2010 Murray > AO 2005 Safin
USO 2006 Fed wasn't playing well
AO 2007 Fed was nothing special

These are the trash takes I'm referring to mostly. RF-18 was perhaps undeserving of my sharp reply but it was meant more generally.

Do you think these are reasonable takes?
Click to expand...
No obviously not but you guys argue at people not opinions all the time and I just think it's distasteful because I do think you can add valuably to discussion you've been that way in the past. I mostly lurk nowadays and everytime I'm looking nowadays arguments are so personal. Idk. I'm not a fan. You don't have to care or agree just how I feel.

I see plenty of takes the opposite direction that I find completely insane but I don't make it personal unless they do first with idiots like octorok claiming I'm an immoral person and stuff like that. I use to enjoy the discourse. Don't anymore. Even the players get an insane amount of vitriol thrown at them just because they don't beat Djokovic. And fwiw I'm ready for the game to move on too. I think it'd be best for the game if Djokovic gets dethroned too (though I'll always root for him). But it's just so exhausting when every single match is this is the worst match ever everyone sucks you're an idiot if you think this is good tennis on and on. Still have hope it gets better once Novak is done but we'll see.
 
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RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Some sort of point by point or match analysis thread would be handy on the matches we disagree on. But don't know if there is a point to it.
 
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