Serve throwing motion - up or forward?
- Thread starter InTheValley
- Start date
IIRC, you believe cues such as "hit up on a serve" "the serve is an upwards motion" are unclear and might cause confusion?
Here is an interesting progression. The student first tries to serve over the fence. Well long.
That first step reinforces the concept that swing path starts low and racquet must be traveling steeply upwards prior to contact.
Next progression, in order to get the serve IN, the coach tells the student that "he must stop his elbow from going too far forward".
Agree with upward motion. But controlling the ball at full speed during the serve motion is an exercise in total futility. Any manual adjustment needs to happen before the motion starts.
The ball goes in or out depending the racket face angle at contact. The simple and reliable way to control the racket face angle at full service is speed is by tossing the ball at the right spot.
Everyone who masters the serve, controls the depth of the ball by toss adjustments. Toss placement dicates the racket face angle. If the ball goes long, toss a bit further in front, goes to the net, toss a bit closer.
(assuming RHS, speed of swing and other variables remain the same)
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
IIRC, you believe cues such as "hit up on a serve" "the serve is an upwards motion" are unclear and might cause confusion?
Here is an interesting progression. The student first tries to serve over the fence. Well long.
That first step reinforces the concept that swing path starts low and racquet must be traveling steeply upwards prior to contact.
Next progression, in order to get the serve IN, the coach tells the student that "he must stop his elbow from going too far forward".
Too much motion blur for a serve video.
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Video can be invaluable. Yes, it is true. 80% of communication is non-verbal. And yet sometimes words alone are sufficient and video is not necessary.
Humans have successfully communicated through words for thousands of years. Words can change the world.
First, the student serves over the fence. Very simple drill.
And then he brings the serve in by not letting the elbow travel too far forward. He calls it an "elbow brake".
Looks to be an interesting alternate way to convey the concept of ISR to players. Excitement!
Words and ideas CAN change the world.
Speech delivered at The University of Salford, UK, 9 February 2015. <check against delivery> Empowering Practice and Inspiring Innovation. Fresh responses to child abuse, including sexual exp…
drandrewrowland.wordpress.com
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
That “elbow brake” looks like the action that was very evident on the Sampras serve. Not so much on the Federer serve.IIRC, you believe cues such as "hit up on a serve" "the serve is an upwards motion" are unclear and might cause confusion?
Here is an interesting progression. The student first tries to serve over the fence. Well long.
That first step reinforces the concept that swing path starts low and racquet must be traveling steeply upwards prior to contact.
Next progression, in order to get the serve IN, the coach tells the student that "he must stop his elbow from going too far forward".
Jeff Salzenstein’s dirty diaper looks like an implementation of this braking action of the elbow.
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
After the player serves over the fence, the next adjustment is to not allow the elbow to go too far forward (reduce horizontal shoulder abduction).
Put on the elbow brake. This adjustment will cause the primary action to be ISR. Deemphasize horizontal shoulder abduction and emphasize the ISR.
... Will have to ponder the Sampras motion. I know Sampras has that signature "scarecrow" high elbow finish. I don't think this high elbow finish is what you are referring to per se. As I think this "elbow brake" will be found on all top serves regardless of finish. The dirty diaper finish might just make the elbow brake easier to see.
This student adjusts after serving long and finally hits a 100 mph in. The drill worked well. Will have to check if student had a dirty diaper finish.
RacquetFlex video also alluded to this and said Fed has bit less ESR flexibilty than Roddick/Sampras but adjusts with more horizontal shoulder abduction to achieve power.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Video can be invaluable. Yes, it is true. 80% of communication is non-verbal. And yet sometimes words alone are sufficient and video is not necessary.
Humans have successfully communicated through words for thousands of years. Words can change the world.
First, the student serves over the fence. Very simple drill.
And then he brings the serve in by not letting the elbow travel too far forward. He calls it an "elbow brake".
Looks to be an interesting alternate way to convey the concept of ISR to players. Excitement!
Words and ideas CAN change the world.
Speech delivered at The University of Salford, UK, 9 February 2015. <check against delivery> Empowering Practice and Inspiring Innovation. Fresh responses to child abuse, including sexual exp…
I establish credibility to include looking at the quality of the presented video information.
Anyone that shows as evidence a blurry video on the serve to the extent that the arm, racket & ball cannot be seen - their evidence has no credibility for me.
A Casio Ex FH100 camera can take excellent high speed video with no motion blur (exposure time down to 25 microseconds). Cost under $100 used. Why don't we have a clear high speed video? Why would anyone produce an instructional video on the serve that's blurry? Blurry videos can't communicate the necessary information and may be misleading.
Here is a Toly composite video showing several arm positions. Any clear high speed video taken from the side camera view could show "elbow break".
Note - ISR during the serve was not confirmed by tennis researchers until 1995. Gerald Paterson was serving with ISR in 1919 as verified by a clear high speed film camera of his serve. (sharp image) Seeing what is in videos matters.
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Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
What is your opinion on the drill progression? Even today, most on-court coaches do not employ video, so I believe the drill is very effective.
I think having the player serve over the fence results in less ISR into contact and more reliance on horizontal shoulder abduction.
The adjustment to get the serve in forces the player to employ more ISR into contact in order to get the serve in. It is interesting that the coach does not eve have to look at the player. He knows that the progression will force the player to adjust the timing of ISR.
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Sounds like a quack and not afraid to express himself without fundamentals. Stay away is the advice here.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Jeff Salzenstein developed the dirty diaper finish from his study of the high elbow after contact on the Sampras serve.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Obviously we can't say how long the two people in the video have been working together, but if we assume the player in the video is his student (which seems fair given their interaction) then wouldn't you say that is a solid serve built on fundamentals?
I recall in a Sampras interview I saw on TV years and years ago, he said that one of the drills he was taught was to serve by aiming for the back fence, and then using his elbow to make it land shorter. So whoever taught him that is, apparently, also a quack!
Edit: I'm not saying it works for everyone, and there are definitely players who don't use their elbow in such a way (Federer, Fritz etc.) but imo it does appear to be a reasonable learning cue for some people.
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imo, the communication method around serve technique has evolved a lot more with the advent of high speed videos. The methods developed in the last 10-15 years do not talk about breaking elbow etc, rather in terms of accelerating along different swing paths. Almost all leading online coaches teach serve differently than the video referenced above.
I do stand by "quack" accusation - it may sound harsh, but words like breaking, stopping and coming down are wrong and lead to unintended consequences when the technique is all about acceleration.
Here's one current/modern example - all other leading coaches use similar communication method in terms of swing path.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Thanks for conveniently avoiding my question
The answer, imo is yes, that kid has a good serve, which might indicate he knows how to teach the fundamentals (or not).The video isn't a "how to serve" instructional session, covering things like swing path or the difference between a first and second serve, and I have no clue how that guy teaches the serve in totality since all that video does is offer a simple cue that can be used by those with an already fundamentally decent serve. And that rules out most on this forum, possibly even you
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Thanks for conveniently avoiding my question
The video isn't a "how to serve" instructional session, covering things like swing path or the difference between a first and second serve, and I have no clue how that guy teaches the serve in totality since all that video does is offer a simple cue that can be used by those with an already fundamentally decent serve. And that rules out most on this forum, possibly even you
Is the "elbow brake" a fundamental element of a serve? imo, no and it's not in the lexicon of current/modern communication of serve technique. The brake tip he advocated seem to alter the swing path. Why not teach that directly instead of throwing in a quack detour? As you said we don't know who taught the kid to serve. If you assume, the coach was the one who did it, I contend that he used inefficient/ineffective methods to teach the same thing which could have been done more productively and using universal principles. I'm lost how the kid's serve comparison is related to the point of the discussion. Based on my observation, all juniors in academies hit quality serves after couple of years.
WildVolley
Legend
Slowing both the torso rotation and the elbow so that internal rotation at the shoulder provides much of the racquet head speed is a standard insight these days, imo. Raonic for example, teaches that the hitting shoulder shouldn't go past the off-shoulder at impact. I take that as a cue to transmit energy into internal rotation even if Raonic doesn't use those terms.
I've taught the concept of slowing the up and forward movement of the elbow just prior to impact for well over a decade. It was an insight that I got from watching slow motion video (from Yandell) of Sampras serving. I'm not the only one who noticed a similar thing, as this thread demonstrates.
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Another key is "leading elbow" on the upwards motion which occurs shortly after the cocking phase (full racquet drop). Not only should the elbow not go too far forward, the elbow should (ideally) be above the level of the hand. This will depend on shoulder flexibility.
I think most club players will do well to get the elbow even with the hand; most have elbow well below the hand.
I think most club players will do well to get the elbow even with the hand; most have elbow well below the hand.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
What is your opinion on the drill progression? Even today, most on-court coaches do not employ video, so I believe the drill is very effective.
I think having the player serve over the fence results in less ISR into contact and more reliance on horizontal shoulder abduction.
The adjustment to get the serve in forces the player to employ more ISR into contact in order to get the serve in. It is interesting that the coach does not eve have to look at the player. He knows that the progression will force the player to adjust the timing of ISR.
1) Progression similar to stroke in video. I can often say if a progression resembles the stroke in the use of joint motions or is similar in some sub-motion to the actual stroke, for example, the use of ISR during the serve. I consider that a big credibility plus for a progression. I have found very few of those and there is no evidence from blurry videos.
2) Progression verified with testing. I can't say if a progression works unless a test were performed - one group with progression vs a second group without.
3) Progressions useful. I believe some progressions are probably good but I have not seen good evidence. Which ones? Look for ATP progressions for improving strokes.
Examples
There is a famous and controversial video on fixing Nadal's serve. Paydirt! Throwing motion progression and more.
Todd Martin showing Djokovic serve, where Djokovic is on his knees. Was that a progression?
"
ATP server went to pro ATP coach and stroke improved after progression. Were progressions used? In other words, we should see some scientific evidence for what we believe.
To start, all depends on someone knowing the proper technique. Somebody knew what was wrong with Nadal's serve.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
"......the elbow should (ideally) be above the level of the hand."
When, during the service motion, are you referring to? Can you show a frame of an ATP serve video? You can go to impact and count frames to "above the level of the hand."
Chas Tennis Vimeo has serves. Most thumbnails (frame shown for the video) have the racket at impact.
Here is a side view that shows the heights of the hand and elbow.
To single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT key and use the ARROW keys. You could start at the frame of impact - call impact 0 frame - and count forwards or backwards.
Vimeo
vimeo.com
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Grafil Injection
Hall of Fame
I noticed that most pros hit on a mostly upward path of the racket. However, the whole motion usually includes a strong lower body forwards direction either with a wide stance or a step forward, so the contact point is usually well inside the court even though it looks directly above the players head. So I think you have to swing upwards with a good measure of forward momentum.
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Leading Elbow. Elbow above the level of the hand.
That is coming out of the racket drop.
How did you capture those few frames?
When I look at that video from post #68, there are many things going on and it is the most interesting part of the serve.
The jump causes Thoracic Extension. Thoracic Extension (TE) & Flexion (TF) are also changing the heights of the elbow & hand, see thread on Thoracic Extension. The spine/trunk is untwisting and that is changing the heights of the elbow and hand. The shoulder-over-shoulder also changes the heights of the elbow and hand. ESR & ISR are occurring and that affects the heights of the elbow and hand. I can't describe these complex things to myself with words without the frames of the video in front of me.
....and there's other stuff going on. .....plus a tad of pronation.
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Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Correct. Just after the full racquet drop.
As stated in previous post: Another key is "leading elbow" on the upwards motion which occurs shortly after the cocking phase (full racquet drop).
Raonic Vimeo Mp4 video trimmed and converted to Gif.
GIF Maker: Create GIFs from Video and Images (Free)
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www.kapwing.com
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Correct. Just after the full racquet drop.
As stated in previous post: Another key is "leading elbow" on the upwards motion which occurs shortly after the cocking phase (full racquet drop).
Raonic Vimeo Mp4 video trimmed and converted to Gif.
GIF Maker: Create GIFs from Video and Images (Free)
Use our animated GIF Maker to make a GIF from a video or multiple images—completely online. Get high-quality GIFs, even with a compressed file size.
Try playing with the times between the frames in the GIFs. That could give everybody time to study the positions.
A 240 fps recording in the camera is processed in the camera into a video file that usually plays back at 30 fps (in US). That playback is slow motion 1/8 of real time speed, 1 second plays back in 8 seconds.
Youtube allows selecting slower and faster playback with the 'gear' control.
As you did, the GIFs could be made to play a single sub-motion back at just the right speed for displaying the fastest parts of the strokes, what ever that GIF playback speed needs to be. ? The racket slows at racket drop.
If you are interested in videos, Kinovea is a free and open source video analysis app. Kinovea shows videos side-by-side and also has a count down timer, where 0 second can be set to impact and earlier count down times are shown in milliseconds.
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Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
My guess is that "elbow above the hand" relationship can still exist, at least to some extent, even without TE.
It would be useful to view a serve with a neutral thoracic spine. This is a common scenario as many/most club players are unable to perform much TE.
In my experience just trying to achieve this elbow relationship results in better serves. Even if the actual position is never achieved.
e.g. Just improving from (elbow slightly below hand) to (elbow even with the hand).
THROW YOUR ELBOW AT THE BALL
Before striking the ball, all great servers share a few key things in common.
One often-overlooked element is the role of the elbow on the hitting arm.
In order to gain racquet-head speed, the elbow precedes the racquet in moving upwards into the serve. The elbow should transfer from below the racquet to just above the racquet, all prior to contact, creating torque and helping accelerate the racquet up to the ball. In more common terms, by “throwing the elbow” at the ball, the racquet hand is left behind, allowing it to accelerate up into the ball. The more distance the elbow covers, the greater the torque on the swing. Focusing on “throwing your elbow up at the ball” can help relax your grip on the racquet.
Tennis Tip: Throw Your Elbow at the Ball - Tennis Tips
www.ussportscamps.com
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socallefty
G.O.A.T.
On all controlled tennis shots and serves, you need to generate both vertical and horizontal momentum to have good pace and spin. So, it is serve ‘up and forward’ - not one or the other. What would be wrong is to pancake it ‘down and forward’.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
You should consider where you are headed. Your tennis stroke experiences? or "This is a common scenario as many/most club players are unable to perform much TE."?My guess is that "elbow above the hand" relationship can still exist, at least to some extent, even without TE.
It would be useful to view a serve with a neutral thoracic spine. This is a common scenario as many/most club players are unable to perform much TE.
In my experience just trying to achieve this elbow relationship results in better serves. Even if the actual position is never achieved.
e.g. Just improving from (elbow slightly below hand) to (elbow even with the hand).
THROW YOUR ELBOW AT THE BALLBefore striking the ball, all great servers share a few key things in common.One often-overlooked element is the role of the elbow on the hitting arm.In order to gain racquet-head speed, the elbow precedes the racquet in moving upwards into the serve. The elbow should transfer from below the racquet to just above the racquet, all prior to contact, creating torque and helping accelerate the racquet up to the ball. In more common terms, by “throwing the elbow” at the ball, the racquet hand is left behind, allowing it to accelerate up into the ball. The more distance the elbow covers, the greater the torque on the swing. Focusing on “throwing your elbow up at the ball” can help relax your grip on the racquet.Tennis Tip: Throw Your Elbow at the Ball - Tennis Tips
ATP & WTA players are examples of the most successful biomechanical techniques in 2023. They use a few specific sub-motions in their strokes. ATP players always use considerable TE in their serves. You seem to want to leave out some of sub-motions. Is that right? You are going to leave Thoracic Extension out and what other sub-motions?
This might be OK, but no one knows - much less the forum members - all that the ATP & WTA players are doing. There is still a lot to study from the ATP & WTA players.
How would we know that a DIY technique works? vs knowing that ATP techniques are the best, have been analyzed and can be viewed in a minute.
Are you going to communicate the DIY technique with high speed videos? Or a few words? How well can you communicate with up, forward or elbow higher than hand?
I'd suggest learning what the ATP players are doing as an available technique reference that has a safety track record for those trained and conditioned pro athletes. Then tune the sub-motions back down to our limitations.
Realize that there are no techniques available called "the 75% performance technique" (for the average player). Instead, there is a chaotic and dishonest system where most players don't know specifically what technique they are headed to.
This is not a good situation.
Watch the uppermost body turn for forehand drives in pro tennis matches and then watch players at your club. What are we doing?
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Are you serious when you say "learn what the ATP players do and tune down to our limitations"? Do you realize it takes years(a lot of time) and really high level expert coaching( a lot of money) to learn what pro players do? I don't think anyone can learn what pro players do by watching high speed videos frame by frame. It's a motor skill that needs to be practiced to understand and later on learn.
Bringing up pro level technique at every breath is a non starter for rec level practitioners, may be it works for keyboard warriors. Everyone requires teaching down at the current level to be of any value.
Got to cross the bridge when we come to it.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
So, the serve is simple?
Isn't it similar to asking "is a car expensive" or "is TTW forum useful"?
Entirely depends on the person (and his context) making that judgement.
Happi
Hall of Fame
Not simple, but some posters here makes it way way too complicated.
The most important for a good serve IMO is timing.
Doing it "right" is not more difficult than doing it "wrong". The difference is, doing it "right" isn't natural.
If it were "natural", everyone would just do it right from the start. Instead, nearly all rec tennis players do it wrong their entire lives.
Once you do it right, it becomes natural. And you almost couldn't do it "rec tennis wrong" if you tried.
Happi
Hall of Fame
I believe the service motion is a pretty natural motion, and not all that complicated that a lot of players wants it to be.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Don't worry, since this isn't really a thread that would be very useful for improving a particular player's serve. This is more of a discussion on the biomechanics of the "high level" serve, the specific actions that are performed, and when they are performed. As such it is more theoretical than practical, although practical advice may come from gaining a better understanding.
So there are tips like "throw your elbow at the ball" which might yield good practical results for some people (depending on who you are). Having said that, something like "throw your elbow at the ball" is highly unlikely to fix a subpar or flawed service motion.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Yes it's so natural, and that's why you see all those abominations on the local courts.
A natural motion is what all raw beginners do. Pretty much by definition. They just "do what seems natural".
And that's why you hear stories about great players of the game being identified at a young age. Because what is natural to them, wasn't natural to all the other kids.
What's natural to you, probably will never be natural to most people on this thread (I get the feeling you're a fairly high level player).
Of course everyone can improve. But in some sense, you're always limited by your "natural instincts".
Happi
Hall of Fame
I can of cause only speak for my self. serve is my biggest weapon and in a clinic 2 weeks ago players commented on my serve telling me it looks so simple and so natural. I have no idea about all that serve biomechanic, to me its just a very natural motion.
Yes I see all the flaws, but I never correct other players unless they ask me.
I agree. Everyone who plays tennis is able to serve and that's a proof that it's natural. If it's not, not many would be able to. It's as natural as making babies - some turn out to be Einsteins and some as forum posters. The quality of output does not make the action unnatural.
It doesn't. If you just want to hit the ball as hard as possible, have everything moving forward (and down). You won't get any serves in, but you will be hitting the ball as hard you can.
Same is true for the rest of your strokes. If you don't care if every ball goes into the back fence, you can hit really, really hard.
legcramp
Professional
Correct me if I am wrong, but hitting up on the serve causes your hand to act as a hinge that has to come down thus you're putting all your energy into tossing the racquet up at the ball and it has to come down. When you force it to swing forward you're kinda arming the serve to try and swing "forward" thus = less power and incorrect form.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Have you been coached a lot? If so, your motion is what has been taught and drilled into you.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@legcramp
Then why do so many do it incorrectly? Not all that natural at all. Have seen 5.0 players with flaws in their serve mechanics. Even some WTA & ATP players.
Dragy
Legend
Do you know how slingshot works? You accelerate it around a circle several times to build up speed, and then release to the direction you need. You use all the directions (well mostly back and forth) to speed it up, and half of acceleration is towards the “wrong” direction.
Now for serve, you need to combine:
- best way for human to accelerate an object (which is throwing, well, after kicking maybe? But it doesn’t suit our case)
- need to make contact high over ground
So you use throwing motion as directly to the high contact point as possible, and then you make it pivot into the needed direction with minimal loss of energy. If you do it correctly, you end up with pro serving mechanics - swinging up at the ball and pivoting racquet head over and around straight into contact.
Trying to swing more horizontally at 9+ ft over the ground employs much weaker power production mechanics compared to throwing.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
There’s a whole lot more than timing to a correct serve motion. Proper serve mechanics is what makes a tennis serve complicated and unnatural for the vast majority
Swing up or forward is determined by the relationship between velocity and distance.
V = d/t
Velocity is directly proportional to the distance. If you increase distance, you gain more velocity within the same time. There's a lot more distance available to speed up to the ball vertically(up via racket drop) than horizontally (forward without much racket drop. The direction in which the ball goes after is determined by the racket face angle. It does not matter, which direction the racket is speeding up as long as the racket face is oriented towards the intended target at contact.
It's incredible how many people just throw some quack theory without any scientific basis. It helps to look at things objectively.
V = d/t
Velocity is directly proportional to the distance. If you increase distance, you gain more velocity within the same time. There's a lot more distance available to speed up to the ball vertically(up via racket drop) than horizontally (forward without much racket drop. The direction in which the ball goes after is determined by the racket face angle. It does not matter, which direction the racket is speeding up as long as the racket face is oriented towards the intended target at contact.
It's incredible how many people just throw some quack theory without any scientific basis. It helps to look at things objectively.
For posters who claim serving is not natural, what's the most natural thing people do? How about breathing? Everyone starts to breath the second they are born.
Do you know 80% of the people breath incorrectly? Numerous scientific studies have shown that the vast majority of people breath less than optimally - too shallow and fast. Just because folks don't breath the right way and maximize the quality of health, does not mean breathing is not natural. It's just insane to go around and say something is not natural because many people don't do as well as it could be done.
Do you know 80% of the people breath incorrectly? Numerous scientific studies have shown that the vast majority of people breath less than optimally - too shallow and fast. Just because folks don't breath the right way and maximize the quality of health, does not mean breathing is not natural. It's just insane to go around and say something is not natural because many people don't do as well as it could be done.
It's always interesting to see how people (choose to) interpret what they read / hear.
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