I do NOT think-if you want a thinker talk to Suresh
Throwing a football: serve power training
- Thread starter WildVolley
- Start date
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis brings the simple argument that one has to understand skills in TWO sports
and prove that those skills are very close to each other in TWO sports.
You are simply NOT addressing this issue
and prove that those skills are very close to each other in TWO sports.
You are simply NOT addressing this issue
WildVolley
Legend
The article you cited showed both similarities and differences between throwing a tennis ball and serving. The operative question is not whether the two are exactly the same - I believe most of us here agree that they're not - but whether throwing a football is useful as a training practice to help develop serve power.
If a controlled study showed they were, then I'd accept that it is a very worthwhile practice. At the moment we have anecdotal evidence that it works, which you can easily be skeptical of. I'm not as quick to dismiss Serena as a potential example because whatever criticisms you might have, she seems to be the best woman server in the world at the moment.
There is a bad of a story.I ran some experiments related to what you are trying to do.
I did NOT have positive results.
I have some hesitations discouraging people from what are doing-I believe in experiments-I have a Ph.D. in physics,as you probably know
WildVolley
Legend
Perhaps you could tell us about your experiment and also the training you do with modified medicine balls.
My experience throwing the football was interesting but not conclusive. I did hard football throwing and then hit particularly hard serves two days later. I don't regularly throw a football and don't particularly have a strong throwing arm. I do believe I got increased speed gains from training with the speed chain, too. But again, I didn't keep careful data and had an injury that set me back for some time.
I have been using football throwing as part of a serve warmup with a few students, but I haven't done any careful study of it. At least the students seem to enjoy it as a warmup. We don't spend a lot of time at it. Most of my students still have technique errors that need to be corrected and most of the work is focused on ingraining a proper motion pattern.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
The basic problem is to design a sensible drill before I would fired at the club I work for
ruprecht
Rookie
I've been playing tennis for a little over a year and I picked up on the service motion fairly quick. I still have lots to work on with it but it is one of the stronger aspects of my game when compared to other parts. I've always thrown a pretty decent spiral so maybe there is something to this.
You are a very smart coach.
Putting Julian on the ignore list is one click away
Ballinbob
Hall of Fame
Sorry I'm late to the party. The football training went on for 6 months. I never was able to lower my elbow on serve, but I did see an increase in serve pace. It also gave my serve a much needed rhythm. I found it easy to translate my throwing rhythm into my serve and it made the serve a lot more simple.
Still use the football to warm-up before a match. I do recommend it
A granny toss is one component.
I advise to watch "Fit to hit" on the Tennis Channel
Football throwing is considered the gold standard for throwing training of any sort - because the need to get a spiral reinforces proper mechanics.. My coaches use footballs too - its very common. Its not new information at all - likely something her Dad or her coach did with her at an early age.. Essential tennis guy has some videos on this. Welcome to the internet OP..
It gets interesting- are you saying that all three: a topspin serve, a slice serve and a flat serve do have a spiral component?
Please define " a spiral reinforces proper technique"
Googling football throw tennis provides a link to a video but the issue of the definition of "proper mechanics" remains
The video in question is "how to serve like Joe Montana"
The question remains whether it is is the best video to teach pronation
Systemic A
Let me make it as simple as possible-I do not see any reason to teach a spiral spin for tennis.
So I do have a problem with using a football throw for teaching purposes.
We can try to bring Systemic Anomaly into this conversation.
Systemic Anomaly discussed three different kind f spins: one of them being a spiral spin.
Let me make it as simple as possible-I do not see any reason to teach a spiral spin for tennis.
So I do have a problem with using a football throw for teaching purposes.
We can try to bring Systemic Anomaly into this conversation.
It is interesting that you misrepresented Ballin Bob. Please read his post.
It is something what I dislike about your posts-you post very often without checking what you are posting
WildVolley
Legend
I think SA's discussion of spiral spin had to do with hitting the American twist serve. The spiral spin, as I understand it, explains why the ball appears to be a topspin slice but then kicks the opposite direction on contact.
The spiral on a football is the result of the internal rotation and pronation imparting a spin to the ball on release. As you noted on the study you cited, the timing pattern perhaps is different, but the motion does seem analogous to the internal rotation on a properly hit tennis serve.
WildVolley
Legend
Good to hear that you think it helped you. 5263 said his son felt throwing for distance like you were practicing really helped him with his timing and creating easy power on the serve. Of course, he was also spending a lot of time on perfecting his serve form.
One advantage of throwing a football is that it is a fun activity that can be done off court. In my area, I can just bring a ball and mess around when on the beach and perhaps still give my serve more pace.
BurnNotice
Rookie
47 yards with a regulation NFL football with no warmup? I highly doubt that my friend. Quarterbacks get praise when they can throw it 60 yards.
Unless you meant you were taking a running start. Then it's more believable.
Basically your last sentence explains some difficulties of using non-tennis balls for teaching serve.
A static position of feet in tennis is another "issue". Please note quotation marks
The related post by GuyClinch above is a bit confusing on the subject of mechanics and spiral.
Once more a beach environment is a bit different than INDOOR club enviroment I operate
Burn Notice, are you asleep?
All I talk about is a running start compared to a standing start! Over and over, I stress that. I"ve mentioned a dozen times a javelin throw, 12 running steps, compared to a QB throw, ONE lead foot step.
When you come in late to a thread, don't diss the posters because YOU didn't read the posted threads.
Remember, I also keep posting about running steps for long jumps, javelin throws, baseball throws (outfielder compared to short stops), spear chuckers, and everyone who throws anything.
All I talk about is a running start compared to a standing start! Over and over, I stress that. I"ve mentioned a dozen times a javelin throw, 12 running steps, compared to a QB throw, ONE lead foot step.
When you come in late to a thread, don't diss the posters because YOU didn't read the posted threads.
Remember, I also keep posting about running steps for long jumps, javelin throws, baseball throws (outfielder compared to short stops), spear chuckers, and everyone who throws anything.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Nice discussion on using the football throw to train for serving (other than the roundabouts of course).
Yes, Imo the high football throw is an extremely valuable training aid. My youngest son has been playing up a division into the 18s and is already quite a dominant server in most of his matches. I don't think he is quite where his big bro was, but actually may be getting more 1st serve aces per match. I just share this to show it was not just that the 1st son was a fluke or something and that the next son is right on track as well. Imo it can be taught and trained.
Imo that ISR/pronation that can be focused on by throwing a football, is the big motor for your serve. I would say that the football toss is best for developing timing of the chain and warm up, both of which will impact your ability to serve well consistently. I'd say that regular throwing with the right form would help your avg 1st serve and even 2ond serve speeds. I'm not as sure that it would affect your max recorded speed that much for a variety of reasons, but that is not as important Imo.
Interestingly
Interestingly enough your last sentence is very vital for what wildvolley is talking about
BurnNotice
Rookie
I'm sorry if I offended you LeeD. I obviously read that you stated running start, my post wasn't to come off as that stupid.
I just think it's strange that you mentioned all of your limitations of throwing, and yet still found a way to throw a football 47 yards without a warm up and a running start. I'm not questioning your claim, I'm curious to why you would go through the lengths to test such a thing. For instance I have never accurately gauged how far I could throw a football and if I did, I would definitely warm up before so and if I was hobbled I would definitely try my best not to exert myself like that.
I'm also curious. How far can you toss a football comfortably with only one step?
5263
G.O.A.T.
Actually I don't agree. I expect most players would be very happy to be able to consistently repeat their very best ever serve.
edit
Oops, I misread his comment and actually do agree, Sorry Julian.
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1. One step, just the right foot....farther than anyone I"ve ever tossed a football with, including a former starting QB for U of Georgia.
2. 47 yards is barely 2/3rds the distance I could throw a football in 9th grade.
3. Football throw is a good indicator of not only arm strength, but kinetics used in a throwing motion. Since I've posted dozens of times I cannot run one step at all, torn tendons in left ankle, my toss's since 2007 are hampered by that injury, and even "running" throws are only 1/3 the benefit of the runup, since I can't run.
4. And remember, after high school, I not only incurred three compound fractures of the lower leg, but also 2 collarbone breaks on each side, and 3 shoulder separations of the left side.
5. Me lefty. Those injuries affect the distance of my throws, and the speed of my tennis serves.
2. 47 yards is barely 2/3rds the distance I could throw a football in 9th grade.
3. Football throw is a good indicator of not only arm strength, but kinetics used in a throwing motion. Since I've posted dozens of times I cannot run one step at all, torn tendons in left ankle, my toss's since 2007 are hampered by that injury, and even "running" throws are only 1/3 the benefit of the runup, since I can't run.
4. And remember, after high school, I not only incurred three compound fractures of the lower leg, but also 2 collarbone breaks on each side, and 3 shoulder separations of the left side.
5. Me lefty. Those injuries affect the distance of my throws, and the speed of my tennis serves.
WildVolley
Legend
Good question. I'm not sure we really know. It might depend on your fitness and training level already.
Ljubicic was throwing a weighted football in the photos I've seen online. I'd guess most people posting here have only worked with normal footballs.
Thanks for the response. I would like to hear more input from the TT community.
To further complicate the problem, it seems that some posters prefer the junior size football to the adult size.
While adult-sized weighted footballs are widely available, I can't seem to find any in junior size.
Junior is used only if the thrower can't throw an NFL regulation ball, possibly due to small hands, but probably due to no practice.
Tennis racket weights 12 oz, much less than a pound. Any sports store has junior and PeeWEE footballs.
2 lbs. might be too much if the arm isn't already strong and trained.
Tennis racket weights 12 oz, much less than a pound. Any sports store has junior and PeeWEE footballs.
2 lbs. might be too much if the arm isn't already strong and trained.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Just pointing out my mistake above and the edit I made.
My point is that Imo, throwing the football in a constructive way for tennis would help you to execute in a more consistent and efficient manner more than an effect on a one time best effort. That said, I expect over time we could see better max efforts as well.....just not an overnight kind of thing.
btw, I also think the normal football wt would be excellent for most players and adding extra wt would be an option for future effort demands.
To me, throwing a football teach's WHEN to tense up the body to allow the hand to come thru and past the elbow, allowing a distance throw to happen. I see too many tennis players just trying to move their rackethands fast to the ball, when there is more to that in serving a tennis ball.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Spiral spin is useful for twist serves, for dropshots (& other underspin specialty shots) and, perhaps, for the banana shot in tennis.
I do not believe that GC was suggesting that imparting a spiral spin on a football somehow translates to developing a spiral spin for tennis strokes. I believe that he was suggesting the imparting spiral spin on a football will cause the hand/forearm to pronate when the ball is released. Is that true GC?
I believe that we've established the the mechanics for throwing a football and tennis serving mechanics have some similarities but, at the same time, have a number of fundamental differences. Throwing a football may help, in a few respects, with developing a tennis serve. But, because the mechanics are sufficiently different, the football throw will not teach us a lot that we need to learn a decent tennis serve.
However, this does not say that tossing a football is not useful for developing certain aspects of the serve. It can be a good warmup for serving. Brad Gilbert and the Bryan bros have demonstrated this in videos (SportSkool). It seems that is might also be useful for strengthening some of the elements or kinetic links (muscles, etc) for the tennis serve.
Personally, it has not done much for me. I throw naturally right-handed but my lefty serve is considerably better than my righty serve. Throwing a football left-handed is very awkward for me. Attempting to do so have not improved the power or technique for my lefty serve. Throwing a football right-handed may have some marginal benefit for my right-handed serve. However, it has not enabled me to serve as powerfully or as well with my right arm as with my left. I have seen similar results for others who throw and serve with the opposite arm. This is not to say that the football throw will not have some benefits for some players.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
I don't know that I can say that the ISR/pronation of throwing a football is responsible for the spiral, but when throwing a football properly, it uses ISR/pronation much like it should be done with the serve.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Yeah. I don't know either if ISR/pronation is actually responsible for the spiral. However, they both appear to be there after the ball release in the video below. In the takeback/prep, the arm/hand is pulled up and back while the forearm is pronated such that the "front" of the football in pointing backfield. ESR also appears to be employed to get the arm/ball in the back position. As the arm moves forward to throw the ball, the forearm supinates prior to release. ISR/pronation is primarily evident after release.
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Just throwing a ball in general helps in most sports. When I was younger I would often throw a ball against a wall sometimes for a few hours. Id pick a spot on the wall and try and throw as hard as i could. At junior tournaments I often got comments on the speed of my serve and forehand, i believe it had alot to do with practicing the throw. I wasnt even tall, Im only 5''10 now.
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
People can throw a baseball 115 meters?
Chanwan, think about it.....
A javelin thrower now goes over 300 feet.
A baseball is smaller, almost as heavy, and is thrown with backspin...meaning the ball stays in the air longer than "normal".
A top thrower in football, like JaMarcus Russel, a young John Elway, or a young Jay Cutler, can throw a football right into 100 yards.
A javelin thrower now goes over 300 feet.
A baseball is smaller, almost as heavy, and is thrown with backspin...meaning the ball stays in the air longer than "normal".
A top thrower in football, like JaMarcus Russel, a young John Elway, or a young Jay Cutler, can throw a football right into 100 yards.
I can imagine Sam Bradford can throw around 75 yards in full pads and cleats, off grass, and with behemoths honing in on him.
I can make 150 feet, given a 5 step runup, which I'd have to practice because I can't run right now, but would it land within half the width of the field?
I can make 150 feet, given a 5 step runup, which I'd have to practice because I can't run right now, but would it land within half the width of the field?
austintennis2005
Professional
has anyone worked out with a 'weighted' football? ive seen some that were two lbs and three pounds
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The best practice for a tennis serve is throwing a baseball. Among my friends the best server has a background in baseball. He's left handed. He played baseball as kid, but the other kid he played with only has right handed gloves, which are left handed. So he learned to throw a baseball right handed. Fast forward to now, when he plays tennis, he serves with his right hand, but switch to his left hand to play.
The tennis racket is only the extension of the hand. He can put all kinds of spins and slices on the the ball.
You haven't watched the Karate Kid, the original, or Rocky IV. Chopping a tree down is exactly like chopping an opponent down.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
This post has some information on the similarity between the throw and the serve. Both use rapid internal shoulder rotation for speed. ISR occurs at the shoulder joint and involves the upper arm bone rotating around its long axis (a line down the center of the upper arm). That upper arm rotation does not show directly in these pictures but the forearm is at an angle and it indicates the ISR rotation of the upper arm.
Here are the pictures from a Pat Dougherty Youtube video.
For drilling the most difficult concept - rotating the upper arm with ISR, it looks as if a proper throw is very similar to the serve as you have often said. Here her upper arm and body orientation are even in the same position as for her serve.
A high speed video showing the throw and the serve instead of these blurred captures from a 30 fps interaced video (double images) would be great.
The ASMI link in reply #34 also has a very detailed response from a researcher very familiar with this issue. He points out similarities and differences.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis
Back to the OP - note that the girl's shoulders look reasonable in orientation.
Baseball pitch showing rapid upper arm rotation followed afterward by upper arm muscles flopping around as the biceps and triceps catch up to the bones. I believe that the frame rate is 2000 fps.
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