Sometimes a roach just gets too small. You can burn your fingers if you hang on to it too long.
Oh, you mean Tony Roche? Next time learn a bit more about what it is you're posting about.
Sometimes a roach just gets too small. You can burn your fingers if you hang on to it too long.
Oh, you mean Tony Roche? Next time learn a bit more about what it is you're posting about.
Sometimes a roach just gets too small. You can burn your fingers if you hang on to it too long.
Oh, you mean Tony Roche? Next time learn a bit more about what it is you're posting about.
Miyagi beats his wife? Not cool.Nah I think it's best to take out anger on the net in threads rather than wife:
Bashing
Unlike most people, I don't think Federer's level has dropped in the slightest. The competition is just much stiffer. Compare his competition today (Mature Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray) to the competition when he dominated (Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, and a much less mature Nadal).
There's no comparison. Federer was winning 3 grand slams a year against inferior opposition and, in the case of 2007, Nadal hadn't matured on hard courts, Murray still hadn't matured, and Djokovic was just coming into his own that year.
wow...
i think you used up your quota for dumb posts for the day. sorry!
the 'inferior opposition' was certainly capable of dealing out ass-whoopings to djokovic and murray from today. hewitt excelled at wearing opponents down, which puts a prime hewitt against what is more and more appearing to be a prime djokovic (since his level has DROPPED this year) hewitt would take it. djokovic just doesnt have the stamina to outlast hewitt, and back then hewitt could trade groundstrokes with anyone. safin would overcome murray from the baseline, as when he played well (in the period you're talking about) he could beat anyone.
roddick was also extremely dangerous, and both he and safin have shown even in the latter stages of their career that they can hang with this so called 'stiff competiion' era.
sorry, you're just ignorant.
I can tell you're not married! Nothing is worse than taking your frustrations out on your partner or spouse. I'd recommend taking it out on just about anyone else instead... Unless you want to speed up the divorce of courseMaybe they had learnt all they could together and it was time to move on. Or personal issues, who knows but it's good if Fed sticks with Cahill the rivalry will improve.
Pity some people can't just take out their frustrations on their partners at home instead of the net in threads!
Ha ha too bad, 1 year later Federer didn't have anyone to blame his loss to Stepanek on (unless he blamed it on Mirka, poor thing )They had some issues with Roche's availability and willingness to travel. There were also some issues with money allegedly. Roger said right after announcing Roche's departure that it had gotten to the point where they would spend hours on court and never really say anything to each other. Roger said that he had been wanting to drop Roche for a while and blamed his performance in Rome on the fact that this had be weighing on his mind.
Was there a official reason given??
Seemed like they were doing well together. He won wat 5-6 slams with him?? Even came close on clay in 06 and 07 failed casue of mental issues!!!!!
So because you disagree, I am somehow dumb for suggesting that today's top players are superior to the one's from a few years ago? I'm sorry, but even before Hewitt's injury the game was passing him by. One look at Roddick's results recently clearly demonstrate that the game has moved on from when he was a player to be feared. Need I even bring up Safin, who was woefully inconsistent?
Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray >>>> Federer, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin.
There's really no comparison.
And I hadn't realised that Roddick was in the latter stages of his career. He's, what, 26 or 27? Hardly Santoro territory. And no, Safin hasn't been able to hang with today's guys. In terms of talent, he's right up there. Talent alone doesn't cut it, however, and his form and consistency put him way below the current crop of top players even when he was in the top 4. He wasn't even close to being consistent enough to beat these guys regularly.
There's a reason that Federer dominated those guys. All you need to do is compare Fed's H2H with them and Fed's H2H with the current crop of top players. That should tell you all you need to know.
And please don't call me dumb and ignorant when you can barely put a sentence together.
COMPLETELY illogical statement. Because if Federer has lost a step, this could be attributed to either losing a step or the competition being better. I think I would rather trust my own eyes or the eyes of commentators and experts that claim that Roger has lost a step, thanks.
So in other words, you still fail to isolate the reason for Federer's decline, so for all of your posturing of superior competition, this still doesn't prove a thing. All you can do is talk around in circles and beg the question.
Roddick may only be 26 or 27, but he's also not as dangerous a player as he was before, and you can clearly see this on the court. His forehand in particular is nowhere near as dangerous; it's pace has dropped, he still hits a number of errors, and it doesn't move around people like it use to. And yet, in his last meeting with one of the "top 4," he beat him (Djokovic).
Safin hasn't won a tournament since 2005 (AO). He's 29 now and says he's going to retire after the end of the year. Trying to claim that Safin "hasn't been able to hang" with these guys when he's been down the last few years that these guys have come up is a circular, begging the question argument.
And let's not forget the fact that tennis players that get to Federer's age frequently see a decline in their abilities anyway. Let's put two and two together before touting that the competition has gotten stiffer ad nauseum.
wrong. Roche dumped Rog.
Like I said, Safin has always been woefully inconsistent. Do you really think it's a coincidence that all of the top players from the era Federer dominated (with the exception of Nadal, who had yet to fully mature on hard and grass) can't even come close to matching their results from a few years ago? You're really grasping at straws.
As early as 2006, guys like Murray (in his first full year on tour) beat 3 of the 4 players mentioned (Hewitt, Roddick, and Federer). It's no coincidence that Federer's dominance ended when Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray matured. It astonishes me that anyone would argue that guys like Ferrero, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick etc. are not inferior to today's top players.
The game is constantly evolving and the standard is improving. You had guys like Hewitt, Roddick, and Ferrero at the top. Federer came along and began to dominate those guys once he matured, making a mockery of that era's standard. Nadal comes along and dominates clay, while Federer mops up everything else in the absence of anyone who can challenge him on hard and grass. Nadal matures on grass and Djokovic matures in general, and later Murray comes into his own. Now Federer has players who can challenge him on all surfaces.
I'm sorry, but I find it laughable that you think a very poor era from a few years ago matches up favourably against today's top players. I really don't care what you say about age etc. It's just nonsense. 26-27 is not old for a tennis player and it certainly is not an age at which a tennis player goes into decline.
By the way, I love how you used Safin's 4 year spell without a title as proof that the standard hasn't improved. Brilliant. Round of applause for that argument.
Like I said, Safin has always been woefully inconsistent. Do you really think it's a coincidence that all of the top players from the era Federer dominated (with the exception of Nadal, who had yet to fully mature on hard and grass) can't even come close to matching their results from a few years ago? You're really grasping at straws.
As early as 2006, guys like Murray (in his first full year on tour) beat 3 of the 4 players mentioned (Hewitt, Roddick, and Federer). It's no coincidence that Federer's dominance ended when Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray matured. It astonishes me that anyone would argue that guys like Ferrero, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick etc. are not inferior to today's top players.
The game is constantly evolving and the standard is improving. You had guys like Hewitt, Roddick, and Ferrero at the top. Federer came along and began to dominate those guys once he matured, making a mockery of that era's standard. Nadal comes along and dominates clay, while Federer mops up everything else in the absence of anyone who can challenge him on hard and grass. Nadal matures on grass and Djokovic matures in general, and later Murray comes into his own. Now Federer has players who can challenge him on all surfaces.
I'm sorry, but I find it laughable that you think a very poor era from a few years ago matches up favourably against today's top players. I really don't care what you say about age etc. It's just nonsense. 26-27 is not old for a tennis player and it certainly is not an age at which a tennis player goes into decline.
By the way, I love how you used Safin's 4 year spell without a title as proof that the standard hasn't improved. Brilliant. Round of applause for that argument.
Well said. Human beings are evolving (we are not going back to monkeys, are we?).
For Roger, the physical decline can be slowed down but never be reversed. I think while he works hard to keep himself healthy, he should at the same time learn things from the younger generation, e.g. Nadal has a great "for the moment" mentality and Murray can be the most intelligent player.
It takes humility to learn from young guns. I hope AO 2009 can truly humble him. At least it is good sign that he is hiring a coach now.
So Safin hasn't won since 2005, before Nadal got really good at hard courts. BEFORE Djokovic and Murray emerged. BEFORE they became known as the big four. And yet, this means that the level of tennis rose and passed him by? Seriously, who's grasping at straws here?
As I said, your argument is begging the question. Please look up what that even means before you try to make an 'argument' against me. I have little patience for people who spew verbal diarrhea and logical fallacies as their 'points.'
It's a very circular argument because Federer may have lost a step and the players may have caught up. It may have been Federer losing a step that allowed the players to catch up, or it may have been the players catching up regardless of how Federer has lost a step. In other words, you can't isolate the variables when several things are happening at once.
I can turn it around on you. If you seriously don't think that someone like Hewitt and Safin in their primes could not only hang with the top 4 today, I don't know what to tell you. Didn't you see them take it to Sampras in back to back years at the US Open? The same guy (actually a better guy, because he was definitely aging) that went on to win the Open in 2002? I guess the 90s era was weak too, by this circular logic, and then Hewitt and Safin caught up.
First off, 26-27 is getting old in tennis terms. Only Agassi the ageless wonder had similar success after 26-27 as before (and that's because he never really had a 'prime' because of off-court issues and concentration). Borg declined, Sampras declined, Lendl declined, McEnroe declined. They all did. Tennis is a young man's game.
So, your "argument" consists of begging the question in an attempt to explain how Federer, against the laws of aging and human biology, is somehow not declining, or hasn't declined one bit, and it's the field that's all taken their vitamins and gotten exponentially better simply because you want to ignore all the proper variables and isolate the one you want without any substantiation for it. :?
Brilliant. Round of applause for this joke of an argument. Why do I even bother?
Evolution is not a proper argument here. Evolution happens over generations and years. To make a notable human evolution doesn't happen within a single career.
You would make a much better argument to say that technology has improved dramatically since 2004, since technology is evolving much faster than humans are.
Better rackets means faster pace on the ball, which means they have to slow the courts down to keep the game of tennis balanced. This puts extra emphasis on people with great mobility and athleticism, and thus puts more emphasis on, -gasp- young players.
Seriously, name one slam contender that's older than Roger Federer. I dare you to.
I love it when a pseudo-intellectual gets on a roll. It makes taking you down a peg all the sweeter.
Firstly, I am fully aware of what "begging the question" means. Unlike most, I don't confuse it with colloquial or common usage. I know what you mean, and repeating it incessantly does not impress me.
Secondly, standards are constantly rising. It is not a case of Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray remaining at one level and then inexplicably becoming world beaters all of a sudden. The standard has risen gradually. That is why players like Safin, Hewitt, and Roddick can't match their past results. Hewitt obviously suffered from injury in recent years, but you can see that his results gradually declined from the time he was at number 1.
There is no such thing as a "very circular argument". It's either circular or it isn't. There are no degrees of circularity. I thought I'd throw that out there since you seem intent on challenging my knowledge of English usage with your awfully presumptious assertion about my awareness of the phrase "begging the question".
I don't recall ever suggesting that my opinion was tantamount to fact, nor do I recall saying that it is a mathematical certainty. It is merely an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I am of the opinion that standards have risen and believe that is why Federer's dominance was halted. And I gave my reasons for holding that opinion.
Firstly, you can't compare the 90s era to today's. It was a different game, particularly when you take into account racquet technology, the grass at Wimbledon, and the fact that the era was dominated by a different style of tennis.
Secondly, Sampras was past it by that age. He won one more US Open in 2002, but that was hardly expected at the time. He was a shadow of his former self by the time Hewitt, Safin, et al came on the scene. After winning Wimbledon in 2000, it was over 2 years until he won his next title. He slid down the rankings and out of the top 10, losing to guys like George Bastl in the 2nd round of Wimbledon. Are you going to sit there and tell me he was the same player?
No, 26-27 is not getting old. It's not even close to old. A player who is 26 is not on the slide.
And are you trying to tell me that Borg declined at the age of 24? He retired at 26 and in the previous year he only played one tournament. He basically retired in 1981, at the age of 24. You might want to think carefully before you embarrass yourself with your answer to my next question. Are you telling me that Borg was past it by the age of 24?
Lendl declined? He won his last GS at the age of 30. He won 6 of his 8 grand slams AFTER he turned 26. That's some decline. I bet more players wish they could decline like that.
McEnroe won his last grand slam at the age of 25. His lack of success therefater had nothing to do with age. He took a break from tennis, came back briefly and then took another one. He basically gave up his commitment to tennis for several years.
And Pete Sampras was 29 when he began to slide down the rankings in 2000.
Not a single one of those players you mentioned are an example of someone declining at the age of 26-27. Good try, though.
The laws of human biology? I'm pretty sure there's no law stating that athletes decline at the ages of 26-27. I guess this must be how you plan to win the argument, by just making stuff up and hoping I won't notice.
In other words, you can't isolate the variables when several things are happening at once.
I love it when a pseudo-intellectual gets on a roll. It makes taking you down a peg all the sweeter.
Firstly, I am fully aware of what "begging the question" means. Unlike most, I don't confuse it with colloquial or common usage. I know what you mean, and repeating it incessantly does not impress me.
Secondly, standards are constantly rising. It is not a case of Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray remaining at one level and then inexplicably becoming world beaters all of a sudden. The standard has risen gradually. That is why players like Safin, Hewitt, and Roddick can't match their past results. Hewitt obviously suffered from injury in recent years, but you can see that his results gradually declined from the time he was at number 1.
There is no such thing as a "very circular argument". It's either circular or it isn't. There are no degrees of circularity. I thought I'd throw that out there since you seem intent on challenging my knowledge of English usage with your awfully presumptious assertion about my awareness of the phrase "begging the question".
I don't recall ever suggesting that my opinion was tantamount to fact, nor do I recall saying that it is a mathematical certainty. It is merely an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I am of the opinion that standards have risen and believe that is why Federer's dominance was halted. And I gave my reasons for holding that opinion.
Firstly, you can't compare the 90s era to today's. It was a different game, particularly when you take into account racquet technology, the grass at Wimbledon, and the fact that the era was dominated by a different style of tennis.
Secondly, Sampras was past it by that age. He won one more US Open in 2002, but that was hardly expected at the time. He was a shadow of his former self by the time Hewitt, Safin, et al came on the scene. After winning Wimbledon in 2000, it was over 2 years until he won his next title. He slid down the rankings and out of the top 10, losing to guys like George Bastl in the 2nd round of Wimbledon. Are you going to sit there and tell me he was the same player?
No, 26-27 is not getting old. It's not even close to old. A player who is 26 is not on the slide.
And are you trying to tell me that Borg declined at the age of 24? He retired at 26 and in the previous year he only played one tournament. He basically retired in 1981, at the age of 24. You might want to think carefully before you embarrass yourself with your answer to my next question. Are you telling me that Borg was past it by the age of 24?
Lendl declined? He won his last GS at the age of 30. He won 6 of his 8 grand slams AFTER he turned 26. That's some decline. I bet more players wish they could decline like that.
McEnroe won his last grand slam at the age of 25. His lack of success therefater had nothing to do with age. He took a break from tennis, came back briefly and then took another one. He basically gave up his commitment to tennis for several years.
And Pete Sampras was 29 when he began to slide down the rankings in 2000.
Not a single one of those players you mentioned are an example of someone declining at the age of 26-27. Good try, though.
The laws of human biology? I'm pretty sure there's no law stating that athletes decline at the ages of 26-27. I guess this must be how you plan to win the argument, by just making stuff up and hoping I won't notice.
So he spelt his name wrong no need to be an *** about it...idiot!
Really?
Safin is currently No. 25 in the world. Hewitt is currently ranked 70th in the world.
You want to say that the standards have risen so much that 20 people surpassed Safin's ranking in 05? That 60 odd people surpassed Hewitt's level?
You're trying to state that the mid 2000s were so weak that the average journeyman now is better than the top players then? So I'm guess you'll claim that Robby Ginepri can give Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi a beatdown. After all, he's ranked higher than Hewitt...
I didn't say that he wasn't aging, but he did come from just winning Wimbledon, got to the finals of the US Open (two years in a row), and got destroyed by Safin and then Hewitt. Safin was very talented, but in 2000, his game was not as polished as it ended up being. He was always a headcase, but Safin at his best (in 2000) is not as good as Safin at his best later in his career (a la 2005 AO).
Borg began losing to McEnroe with far more regularity. Whether that's an example of decline or the ascension of another player can go either way. That said, I'm not like you where I can pretend to isolate a variable outside of experimental circumstances.
McEroe did decline after 25. Again, it's very convenient of you to claim that he "took a break from tennis" and then, with a questionable cause fallacy, claim that it's because he took a break from tennis. If McEnroe, like Borg, could continue winning at the same rate as they did before, they would still be playing tennis.
As for Pete Sampras, you're not the brightest candle in the chandelier, are you?
The last time Sampras won the US Open, prior to his miracle run in 2002, was 1996, when he was twenty five years old. The last time he won the Aussie Open was 1997, when he was twenty five years old.
In fact, Sampras only won three of his 14 Grand Slams after the age of 27 (Roger Federer's current age), at a rate of less than one win per year, three of them at Wimbledon. Prior to this, he won 11 grand slams in 8 years, at a rate of about 1.4 grand slams per year.
That's not decline? Really? Clearly math isn't your strong suit either, just like logic.
You don't think Tennis is a young man's game? Let me spell out the past few champions at the French Open, shall we?
2008 - Rafa Nadal: 21 years old
2007 - Rafa Nadal: 20 years old
2006 - Rafa Nadal: 19 years old
2005 - Rafa Nadal: 18 years old
2004 - Gaston Gaudio: 25 years old
2003 - Juan Carlos Ferrero: 24 years old
2002 - Albert Costa: 26 years old
2001 - Gustavo Kuerten: 24 years old
2000 - Gustavo Kuerten: 23 years old
1999 - Andre Agassi: 29 years old
1998 - Carlos Moya: 22 years old
1997 - Gustavo Kuerten: 20 yars old
1996 - Yevgeny Kafelnikov: 22 years old
1995 - Thomas Muster: 27 years old
1994 - Sergi Bruguera: 23 years old
1993 - Sergi Bruguera: 22 years old
1992 - Jim Courier: 21 years old
1991 - Jim Courier: 20 years old
Speaking of Jim Courier, he never won a slam after just 22 years of age.
So, you have two examples in the last 18 years of players over the age of 26 winning the French Open. The only one over the age of 27 (Roger Federer's age) is the ageless wonder himself, Andre Agassi.
The average age is 22.56 years. Sounds a lot like a bunch of old men at the country club winning the slams, doesn't it?!
LOL.
There is a law that states that your recovery time gets slower as your body ages. You don't have the same cardiovascular endurance. Your body's capacity for work, for men, peaks in their early to mid twenties and then declines. If you had any understanding of sports medicine, physiology, or kinesiology, you would know this. Tennis is a young man's game.
Again, do you think it's a coincidence that of the quarterfinalists at the Aussie Open, Roger Federer was the oldest competitor?
Do you think it's a coincidence that the average age of French Open champions over the last 18 years is just over twenty-two years old?
Do you think it's a coincidence that as people observe Roger Federer losing a step, that's when the rest of the field catches up to him?
According to you, all of the above is a resounding yes. People don't lose a step at Roger Federer's age. It's just that Roger was beating up on nobodies and now he's not.
Again, you cannot isolate a variable as you please when multiple things are happening at once. This is a mathematical and logical fallacy. The field may be getting better, technology is definitely getting better, tennis is evolving, but at the same time, Roger Federer is getting slower. Thus, how much is the former and how much is the latter?
I don't know, but if you want to claim it's all because players are getting better, you're even dumber than I thought.
So yes, keep spouting off buzzwords like "psuedointellectual" to mask the fact that you have a paper-thin argument, and I'm going to enjoy tearing it apart every time.
Good day.
I can tell you're not married! Nothing is worse than taking your frustrations out on your partner or spouse. I'd recommend taking it out on just about anyone else instead... Unless you want to speed up the divorce of course
All you need to do is compare Fed's H2H with them and Fed's H2H with the current crop of top players. That should tell you all you need to know.
And please don't call me dumb and ignorant when you can barely put a sentence together.
The reason that Safin is ranked 25th is all down to one win over Djokovic at Wimbledon. As a result, he benefited from Djokovic's seeding and his path to the semis. In previous years he has been ranked in the 70s. I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to prove by using Safin's current ranking in your argument. That players get better with age? He was way out of the top 50 in recent years, yet at the age of 29 he is ranked 25. Good job contradicting yourself.
When did I say anything remotely like that? Reading comprehension isn't your strong point. Hewitt is ranked painfully low because of injury. However, even before his injury Federer had started to dominate. Hewitt couldn't come close to matching his previous success. Hewitt was ranked in the top 10 prior to his injury troubles etc. The point I am making is that even with him being in the top 10 it still highlights how the standard had risen since he was world number 1.
He was 29 by that point. The fact that he reached 2 US Open finals is irrelevant, since he lost both convincingly as he was sliding down the rankings. Like I said, he did not win another title for over 2 years. That is a definite decline.
It was clearly a case of McEnroe improving. Borg was in his early 20s. You do not suddenly lose your prime in your early 20s because of the ageing process. The very notion that a player can be over the hill before the age of 25 is absurd.
It has nothing to do with convenience. McEnroe did take a break from tennis when he was in his prime. He took another one shortly after he returned to the tour. Surely a tennis connoisseur like yourself is aware of McEnroe's relationship with Tatum O'Neal, which became a huge distraction? It's pretty well documented.
Frankly, it is idiotic to say that Borg and McEnroe were past it before they reached the age of 25. They hadn't even reached the midpoint of early adulthood. The body does not age that fast
I guess Wimbledon doesn't count? Any old player can win that mickey mouse tournament.
No, it's not a decline. The game was changing, making serve and volley a much tougher style to be successful with. Technology benefited baseliners to the detriment of serve/volleyers. In spite of that, Sampras still managed to win 3 more grand slams. It's not a coincidence that Pete's results dried up as baseliners started to dominate the tour.
It is a case of players improving, with younger, better players coming through. What you are in essence saying is that Jim Courier was over the hill by the age of 21; Kafelnikov and Bruguera were past it by 22; and everyone else was fit for retirement around the age of 23 or 24. You don't seem to have the first clue how the human body works. At the age of, for example, 24 the effect of the ageing process is generally negligible. If we aged as fast as you are suggesting, we would be dead by 40.
I have a healthy understanding of the ageing process. It does not have any notable impact on an athlete who is 24 years of age. You don't seem to grasp how slow the process is. Adulthood begins at 19-20 and the ageing process starts from there. You are telling me that 4 or so years after it begins, an athlete is past their best (you even suggested that 22 is where a player's prime ends in some cases). Utter nonsense.
Was the massive "LOL" necessary? Way to lower the tone by acting like a school kid. I can just imagine Professor Richard Dawkins suddenly exclaiming "LOL" in the middle of a debate.
I'm sure there are some players who are past it by the age of 27. I don't recall ever suggesting otherwise. Those players generally have a much more demanding style of play, however. Federer's style of play is one of the least demanding out there.
Roger Federer is, in my opinion, not one of those players who are a step slower at 27. Your arguments have become gradually more ludicrous. Players past their best by the age of 22? Words fail me. You will likely come back and call that an argument from incredulity. It's not, though. If it wasn't for the massive holes in your arguments keeping me occupied, I would genuinely be at a loss for words.
Haven't I already answered your question on why Federer is the only GS contender at his age? That is precisely what we have been arguing about. The other players from his generation just can't cut it. That's why.
you said:It is a case of players improving, with younger, better players coming through.
ChanceEncounter, I like how you conveniently ignored the point I answered about Lendl.
Haven't I already answered your question on why Federer is the only GS contender at his age? That is precisely what we have been arguing about. The other players from his generation just can't cut it. That's why.
That guy would be near-last on my 'wish list for Roger'.seriously though , i think he needs one. a good one would be Wilander.