Yeah, Graf's competition is so much stronger than the Williams sisters

Andy G

Andy G

Semi-Pro
Yeah, I agree 100%. I posted a thread about this, and how Graf's Golden Slam in 1988 is so under-rated. If anyone today won all 4 majors and the olymoic gold in the same year, they would be heralded as the the greatest. Not to mention that she is the only player to complete a grand slam across 3 different surfaces. For those of you who don't know, there are a few women who won grand slams, it's not just Laver & Budge. Could you imagine the fire that would erupt at TW between Fed & Nadal fans if either of these men would have gotten a golden slam last year. Yet Graf's accomplishment is over looked because she is a 'she'.
http://www.tennis.com/features/general/features.aspx?id=153982
 
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Grass_for_cows

Grass_for_cows

Semi-Pro
I think the OP is being facetious. On the other hand that's not just pushing, that's pushing.

And besides how many women today can hit overheads consistently? Sharapova or Jankovic would've smacked a swinging volley into the net before the moonball rally could get going.
 
JeMar

JeMar

Legend
Julesb... I choose YOU!!!

334606-160760-pokeball_large.gif
 
julesb

julesb

Banned
Monica let Chris win that match. She knew it was the final U.S Open of the great legend. While neither Monica or Chris were anywhere near their primes, Monica even much further from hers in fact, she knew most expected her to win that match since she had beaten Chris on clay. If she could beat Chris on clay it would have been expected she would easily beat her on a fast hard court but she knew it would be sad for the great Chris Evert to not atleast make the quarters of her last slam and lose to some 15 year old kid way before her prime so she tanked the match basically.
 
GameSampras

GameSampras

Banned
Margaret Court's grandma had better competiton in the 1850's than the William Sisters have now with all the fat clowns, russian headcases, or never will's
 
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Cantankersore

Cantankersore

Semi-Pro
GameSampras said:
Margaret Court's grandma had better competiton in the 1850's than the William Sisters have no with all the fat clowns, russian headcases, or never will's
Click to expand...

Why can't people just admit that in 20 years, the general skill level in professional players has increased?
 
GameSampras

GameSampras

Banned
Cantankersore said:
Why can't people just admit that in 20 years, the general skill level in professional players has increased?
Click to expand...


Skill level?? Youre serious? Youre saying chicks like Ivanovic the eye candy, Jankovic, Dementieva, Safain have a greater skill level than a Martina, Evert, Graf, Goolagong, Seles?
 
grafselesfan

grafselesfan

Banned
Cantankersore said:
Why can't people just admit that in 20 years, the general skill level in professional players has increased?
Click to expand...

Since it hasnt. The current mens and womens fields are the worst in tennis history, but even moreso the current womens fields than the mens. As a longtime WTA fan who has followed the sport closely since the mid 70s I am appaled at the state of womens tennis the last 3-4 years. Even earlier this decade it was light years better than now. Serena is even more dominant in the slam than she was at her 1999-2003 peak and she is about 60% the player (if that) that she was back then.
 
grafselesfan

grafselesfan

Banned
So one lame point where they both hit moonballs. Evert was killing Monica in that match, Monica was probably desperately trying an almost unimaginable tactic to try and cool off a red hot Evert.
It happens. Atleast in desperation she is obviously thinking and trying to come up with something, which todays women ever do. If you want to see disgusting tennis show one of todays women serving for a big match that is still reasonably close and double faulting atleast twice in the game gauranteed.
 
E

EtePras

Banned
GameSampras said:
Skill level?? Youre serious? Youre saying chicks like Ivanovic the eye candy, Jankovic, Dementieva, Safain have a greater skill level than a Martina, Evert, Graf, Goolagong, Seles?
Click to expand...

Didn't I just prove that Evert and Seles are about as good as a 3.0 pusher? I highly doubt anyone that's known for losing to them would be much better.
 
boredone3456

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Cantankersore said:
Why can't people just admit that in 20 years, the general skill level in professional players has increased?
Click to expand...

so the fact that matches today have more unforced errors than winners, frequently have more breaks of serves than holds, and players contesting them who know how to do nothing else besides trying to give the ball a concussion means there is more general "skill" among players today? Sorry that does not compute in my mind. Just because they hit the ball harder, does not mean they are better.
 
grafselesfan

grafselesfan

Banned
boredone3456 said:
so the fact that matches today have more unforced errors than winners, frequently have more breaks of serves than holds, and players contesting them who know how to do nothing else besides trying to give the ball a concussion means there is more general "skill" among players today? Sorry that does not compute in my mind. Just because they hit the ball harder, does not mean they are better.
Click to expand...

They dont even hit harder. Outside of the Williams sisters and maybe Dementieva (off the ground only) Graf, Seles, Davenport, Pierce, Court, Schultz McCarthy, Novotna, Navratilova, Mandlikova, Stove, the old Sharapova (pre shoulder woes), Capriati, Huber, Majoli, mid 90s Maggie Maleeva, early 2000s Dokic, early 2000s Hantuchova, Henin, Clijsters, Schwarz, Lucic, all hit the ball harder than any of todays other players, plus probably a bunch of others I forgot. Just because the only thing todays players (outside the Williams) can do well is hard hitting doesnt mean they are even that great at that. :)
 
Sartorius

Sartorius

Hall of Fame
Except the Williams sisters, currently there's no one on the tour that you would say "she's going to play well today" and be absolutely sure about it. Players often don't show up when they need to.

That's bad.
 
boredone3456

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Sartorius said:
Except the Williams sisters, currently there's no one on the tour that you would say "she's going to play well today" and be absolutely sure about it. Players often don't show up when they need to.

That's bad.
Click to expand...

Lately...you can't even say that about the Williams. Venus loses early all sorts of places to players years ago she would steamroll. The only places Venus really seems to play consistantly well lately are Wimbledon, the US Open, maybe Miami and occasionally the YEC. Other than that she is up and down as much as anyone.

Serena plays good at the slams...not great, just good. Outside the slams she doesn't, this year she has lost outwside of the slams to Stosur, Zakopalova, Schnyder, Dementieva...going back a little further she has lost to Li Na to. Even at the slams she has had several near losses. (Azarenka and Kuznetsova at this years Australian, Zakopalova and Martinez Sanchez at the French, Dementieva at Wimbledon, Venus at the US Open last year). she wasn't playing remarkably well in any of those matches...although she got the job done.

Serena of 02-03 and Venus of 00-02 would destroy themselves today ..but they are still at the toptop because the players around them are unable to capitlize on their weaknesses consistantly...especially in Serena's case at the majors. Looking at the list of players they both have lost to or nearly lost to this year...and its tough to say even they can be gauranteed to play at their potential bests today.
 
P

pmerk34

Legend
boredone3456 said:
so the fact that matches today have more unforced errors than winners, frequently have more breaks of serves than holds, and players contesting them who know how to do nothing else besides trying to give the ball a concussion means there is more general "skill" among players today? Sorry that does not compute in my mind. Just because they hit the ball harder, does not mean they are better.
Click to expand...

There were a million breaks of serves of women players in the 80's and early 90's unless their names were Martina or Steffi. Women's tennis back then was more unwatchable then than now.
 
P

pmerk34

Legend
grafselesfan said:
They dont even hit harder. Outside of the Williams sisters and maybe Dementieva (off the ground only) Graf, Seles, Davenport, Pierce, Court, Schultz McCarthy, Novotna, Navratilova, Mandlikova, Stove, the old Sharapova (pre shoulder woes), Capriati, Huber, Majoli, mid 90s Maggie Maleeva, early 2000s Dokic, early 2000s Hantuchova, Henin, Clijsters, Schwarz, Lucic, all hit the ball harder than any of todays other players, plus probably a bunch of others I forgot. Just because the only thing todays players (outside the Williams) can do well is hard hitting doesnt mean they are even that great at that. :)
Click to expand...

Mandlikova did not hit that hard. Geez. Margaret court? Are you serious. She looked like she was playing bandminton.
 
JeMar

JeMar

Legend
Lionheart392 said:
No a pusher is like someone who chases down every single ball regardless of whether or not they have a chance of winning the point.
Click to expand...

That's more of a counterpuncher.

A pusher is someone who just gets the ball back with little to no pace and just waits for an error from his opponent. They're usually public enemy number 1 at tennis clubs because no one respects their game, and are annoyed that they keep losing to them.
 
Lionheart392

Lionheart392

Professional
JeMar said:
That's more of a counterpuncher.

A pusher is someone who just gets the ball back with little to no pace and just waits for an error from his opponent. They're usually public enemy number 1 at tennis clubs because no one respects their game, and are annoyed that they keep losing to them.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks for the clarification... I heard that they often like to **** off their opponents in the hope that frustration will affect their game.
 
Bilbo

Bilbo

Semi-Pro
grafselesfan said:
They dont even hit harder. Outside of the Williams sisters and maybe Dementieva (off the ground only) Graf, Seles, Davenport, Pierce, Court, Schultz McCarthy, Novotna, Navratilova, Mandlikova, Stove, the old Sharapova (pre shoulder woes), Capriati, Huber, Majoli, mid 90s Maggie Maleeva, early 2000s Dokic, early 2000s Hantuchova, Henin, Clijsters, Schwarz, Lucic, all hit the ball harder than any of todays other players, plus probably a bunch of others I forgot. Just because the only thing todays players (outside the Williams) can do well is hard hitting doesnt mean they are even that great at that. :)
Click to expand...

navratilova's second serve would get killed by some of today's hard hitters...
 
Lionheart392

Lionheart392

Professional
Bilbo said:
navratilova's second serve would get killed by some of today's hard hitters...
Click to expand...

Such mindless ball bashers would be too confused seeing her running to the net to concentrate on attacking her serve. Serve and volley??? What the heck is that???
 
P

Petra Martinnen

Rookie
What many are missing is that there is MUCH more depth today and because of it we see parity. Parity for many fans is not enjoyable because it is hard to dominate. If you think the first week of slams is a joke now, look back a few decades!! Rank amateurs.

So today players seem to move in and out of the zone and some fans paste them as being "weak." Even a Navratilova would not win 18 slams today nor would Chris. Shout as you might, but I'd argue that even an Azarenka is as good as Virginia Wade! Jankovic would obliterate BJK!

Isn't it good that tennis is raising its level even if it means we don't get Smith or Graf like dominance?

On TTC I saw a prime 1991 Seles match where Monica's 1st serves averaged 85 mph! Think about it!
 
P

pmerk34

Legend
Petra Martinnen said:
What many are missing is that there is MUCH more depth today and because of it we see parity. Parity for many fans is not enjoyable because it is hard to dominate. If you think the first week of slams is a joke now, look back a few decades!! Rank amateurs.

So today players seem to move in and out of the zone and some fans paste them as being "weak." Even a Navratilova would not win 18 slams today nor would Chris. Shout as you might, but I'd argue that even an Azarenka is as good as Virginia Wade! Jankovic would obliterate BJK!

Isn't it good that tennis is raising its level even if it means we don't get Smith or Graf like dominance?

On TTC I saw a prime 1991 Seles match where Monica's 1st serves averaged 85 mph! Think about it!
Click to expand...


Women's tennis has gotten better at a faster rate from 25 years ago then mens tennis has.

Women's tennis from the 80's and pre-power early 90's was a joke until the finals or semi's. The greatest woman's player I have ever seen is Marina Navratilova and I would find it absurd to think she would reach 40 slam singles finals in this era.

Heck even Hingis, built like a little cheerleader was able to win 3-4 slams in 1997. Quite unimpressive if you ask me that there was not a enough power even then to beat her.
 
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Lionheart392

Lionheart392

Professional
CCNM said:
So they try to return every shot fired at them?
Click to expand...

"In tennis, a pusher is a player who "pushes" back any shot they can chase down, without deliberately hitting a winner. This style of play, likened to a "human backboard", often tires and frustrates more skilled opponents."

That's wikipedia's definition, and let's face it, wikipedia never lies. :)
 
P

pmerk34

Legend
Lionheart392 said:
"In tennis, a pusher is a player who "pushes" back any shot they can chase down, without deliberately hitting a winner. This style of play, likened to a "human backboard", often tires and frustrates more skilled opponents."

That's wikipedia's definition, and let's face it, wikipedia never lies. :)
Click to expand...

That is a perfect definition.
 
Grass_for_cows

Grass_for_cows

Semi-Pro
Petra Martinnen said:
So today players seem to move in and out of the zone and some fans paste them as being "weak." Even a Navratilova would not win 18 slams today nor would Chris. Shout as you might, but I'd argue that even an Azarenka is as good as Virginia Wade! Jankovic would obliterate BJK!

Isn't it good that tennis is raising its level even if it means we don't get Smith or Graf like dominance?

On TTC I saw a prime 1991 Seles match where Monica's 1st serves averaged 85 mph! Think about it!
Click to expand...
That's exactly what Monica wants you to do. While you are wondering about the 85 mph serve she sneaks in a sharp-angled two-handed forehanded past your ass for a winner. Game, set, match, Seles.
 
MesQueUnClub

MesQueUnClub

Rookie
Honestly I would rather watch that than the monstrosity that was on ESPN 2 this week with Sharapova playing and making 60+ double faults in 4-5 matches. To top it off, they talked about her shoulder surgery from 9 months back and how it's affecting her serve non-stop for the 3 matches that I saw...barely even mentioned anything about the opponent .... one of whom packed her off and later won the tournament.

She had 15 double faults in one match and still managed to win it. How pathetic is that. Add the 40+ unforced errors to that and it was a total entertainment package :(
 
C

CCNM

Hall of Fame
Lionheart392 said:
"In tennis, a pusher is a player who "pushes" back any shot they can chase down, without deliberately hitting a winner. This style of play, likened to a "human backboard", often tires and frustrates more skilled opponents."

That's wikipedia's definition, and let's face it, wikipedia never lies. :)
Click to expand...
Okay. I get it (note to self-get your own computer w/access to youtube and look at some examples of playing styles)
 
grafselesfan

grafselesfan

Banned
Nobody has even really answered my earlier question. Apart from the Williams who are these great power players or super hard hitters today that are ushering in this scary power era of tennis. Is anyone even going to try and argue Safin, Kuznetsova, Dementieva, Ivanovic, Jankovic, busted shouldered Maria are these amazing super power hitters who bring power to a new level compared to Graf, Seles, Davenport, Pierce, old Maria, Capriati, Henin, Lucic, early 2000s Dokic, and a bunch of others, LOL! The field today sucks, even the amazing power quota argument doesnt fly. There was even MUCH more power in the game 5, 10, 15, and 20 years ago than there is today. The last time there were less impressive power hitters in the womens game was at the latest back when there were last wood racquets. Well I wonder why then.

The only thing todays girls do well is hit hard, I agree with that, but they dont even do that particularly well. Dokic is about half the player she was when she was in the top 10 in the early 2000s when the Williams, Davenport, Capriati, and Henin at their peaks were on top, and she still was slugging it out and holding her own vs World #1 Safina in Australia. In her early 2000s form she would probably have powered Safina right off the court and be winning slams today, where at the time of her peak tennis she was a marginal top tenner for a bit.
 
P

pmerk34

Legend
grafselesfan said:
Nobody has even really answered my earlier question. Apart from the Williams who are these great power players or super hard hitters today that are ushering in this scary power era of tennis. Is anyone even going to try and argue Safin, Kuznetsova, Dementieva, Ivanovic, Jankovic, busted shouldered Maria are these amazing super power hitters who bring power to a new level compared to Graf, Seles, Davenport, Pierce, old Maria, Capriati, Henin, and a bunch of others, LOL! The field today sucks, even the amazing power quota argument doesnt fly. There was even MUCH more power in the game 5, 10, 15, and 20 years ago than there is today. The last time there were less impressive power hitters in the womens game was at the latest back when there were last wood racquets. Well I wonder why then. The only thing todays girls do well is hit hard, I agree with that, but they dont even do that particularly well.
Click to expand...

You make no sense. 20 years ago there was more power? Get serious.
 
grafselesfan

grafselesfan

Banned
pmerk34 said:
You make no sense. 20 years ago there was more power? Get serious.
Click to expand...

I am still waiting to hear a list of all the impressive power hitters of today. OK Serena and Venus, despite being about half the players they once were, fine. Who else? Yes players like Graf, Navratilova, Capriati, Seles, even Sukova all hit the ball much harder than todays mediocre excuse of power hitters like the current Russians and Serbs.
 
P

pmerk34

Legend
grafselesfan said:
I am still waiting to hear a list of all the impressive power hitters of today. OK Serena and Venus, despite being about half the players they once were, fine. Who else? Yes players like Graf, Navratilova, Capriati, Seles, even Sukova all hit the ball much harder than todays mediocre excuse of power hitters like the current Russians and Serbs.
Click to expand...

Sukova and Martina bunted the ball compared to Safina. Graf sliced her backhand 90% of the time. Capriati I consider today's era and Seles hit very hard.
 
grafselesfan

grafselesfan

Banned
pmerk34 said:
Sukova and Martina bunted the ball compared to Safina. Graf sliced her backhand 90% of the time. Capriati I consider today's era and Seles hit very hard.
Click to expand...

LOL Martina bunted the ball compared to Safina!?!? Martina had a much bigger and more reliable serve, a bigger forehand, those crushing volleys and overheads which were the best ever, returned with more authority and skill. Sukova also hits a much bigger serve, much bigger forehand, an agressive net game with some crushing smashes which Safina could only dream of. Safina hit a harder (not better but harder) backhand, that is it. Compared to Graf, Navratilova, Seles, Capriati especialy Safina power wise looks like she is playing lawn bowling, and yet that is the only thing Safina does well. Pretty sad that this is one of the so called best players in the World of today, especialy for those trying to argue some amazing power renaissance.

Capriati is NOT part of todays field or even todays era. She last ever played a professional match in 2004, her career spanned from 1991 to 2004. She is about 10 years older than players like Safina, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, busted shouldered Sharapova, etc...She did play a number of years in the later years of her long career vs players who were actually in between her era and the current one- people like Venus, Serena, Dementieva, but that is it. She is in no way, shape, or form related to the field of recent years being discussed.
 
jamesblakefan#1

jamesblakefan#1

G.O.A.T.
Dementieva was outpowering Serena in most of their rallies @ Wimbledon.

Safina, Dementieva, Kuznetsova, Azarenka, Bartoli, Petrova, Lisicki, Sharapova, Pennetta, Stosur, Wozniacki, Cirstea, all hit the ball w/ more powerful than 90% of the girls of the past.

And how'd you put Henin and Davenport in the old era? Both were world #1's during the 2000's.
 
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