Graf legitimately whooped Seles in that U.S Hard courts final you refer to. However that was not a grand slam, you know the events that really matter most.
Oh Jules, Mom's calling. Time for her sponge bath....
Graf legitimately whooped Seles in that U.S Hard courts final you refer to. However that was not a grand slam, you know the events that really matter most.
Graf legitimately whooped Seles in that U.S Hard courts final you refer to. However that was not a grand slam, you know the events that really matter most. .
Oh, so what you're saying is that Seles couldn't even win an event that didn't even matter?
What he's saying is none gives a darn that Steffi beat her in the US Hardcourts when Monica had beaten in 3-4 grand slams
And yet if Seles had won that match I bet my house you'd be using it as another reason why she is the second coming of Christ...
No we wouldnt. Notice we havent brought up Seles's thrashing of Graf in the Berlin final in 1990 at only 16 years either, the same way Graf thrashed new #1 Seles in that U.S hard courts final. That is because we realize what Graftards dont seem to realize, those smaller events mean nothing in the big picture to the great players in the game, it is who does better in big events that matter.
That would be Graf then, who leads Seles 6-4 in grand slams
Seles at only ages 16-19 led prime 20-23 year old Graf 3-1 in slam finals and overall slam meetings. Graf's edge is based upon 2 slam wins over 15 year old Seles, and 2 more after being knifed in the back and nearly killed by a Graf worshipper. In 99 both players were past their past their primes clearly so I would give credence to those also and they split 1-1, so 4-2 Seles is their reasonable slam head to head unless you think matches with 15 year old pre pubsecent girls while at your own career peak, or matches with women just returning after 2 and a half years off of nearly being killed by a knife on the tennis court while you are still in your prime are rational matches to consider.
But Seles after her comeback could still beat most of the players she would beat before. For example her H2H with Sanchez Vicario was 10-1 before the stabbing, and 10-2 after. Granted Seles was a nightmare matchup for Sanchez Vicario but you get my drift. However she was unable to beat Graf who was clearly playing better in 1995-6 compared to the early 90s. You don't need to look at her results to see that, just watching her play you can see she got scarily good. Why is it that Seles could make the final of the US Open in the first comeback grand slam as she did before her stabbing, and only Graf could stop her? It's a convenient excuse to say Seles was out of shape but as I said, she could still beat all her previous opponents and if she truly is as good as you say and if Graf is truly as overrated as you say, Seles should have been able to beat her.
You are right on one thing. Seles was able to dominate almost all the players that made up Graf's pathetic "competition" (LOL) after the Seles stabbing. Only Graf, Novotna, and on her hyde days the sparatic nutty Pierce were good enough to even beat the much weakened, fatter, traumatized Seles upon her return to tennis. The rest of the so called top players, including the overrated lucky Sanchez Vicario- Graf's opponent in 6 slam finals after the Seles stabbing, the talentless Cowchita Martinez, Huber, Majoli, Date, Coetzer, Fernandez, the youngest Maleeva, a past her prime Sabatini were still completely hopeless vs Seles and dominated by her. It wasnt until the next generation of talented players like Hingis, Davenport, and the Williams emerged that a much weakened, eating disorder blimped Seles was dropped outside the dominant few players of the game. Heck Davenport when she was fat as a U-haul herself in 96, Hingis at only 15 in 96, and players of the new generation who never managed a slam vs new field like Rubin and Spirlea, even gave Seles a much tougher time than the talentless Graf contemporaries I mentioned. What does that say about the lame ass field of wannabees Graf piled up so many more slams against after Seles was stabbed. Graf herself ducked from this new field of women, conveniently becoming too "injured" to play regularly from 97 onwards after having mighty trouble with a 15 year old Hingis several times in 1996, and then smartly retiring on a high note after her fluke final French Open title and Wimbledon title.
She did have her knee rebuilt Jules, not exactly trivial.
But you still haven't answered my question really. If Graf is so much worse than Seles, why didn't she have her number even if she was slightly overweight? Surely the GOAT who could've been should've been able to overcome such an overrated hack. Even in 1998 Seles couldn't beat a crippled post-prime Graf. Why did she lose to the hideous Graf???
On a sidenote, Graf didn't win Wimbledon in 1999, she was runner-up.
b/n the 1990 french open and the date of the stabbing:
Graf 3
Seles 3
nobody was "dominating" anyone during that stage.
You are right on one thing. Seles was able to dominate almost all the players that made up Graf's pathetic "competition" (LOL) after the Seles stabbing. Only Graf, Novotna, and on her hyde days the sparatic nutty Pierce were good enough to even beat the much weakened, fatter, traumatized Seles upon her return to tennis. The rest of the so called top players, including the overrated lucky Sanchez Vicario- Graf's opponent in 6 slam finals after the Seles stabbing, the talentless Cowchita Martinez, Huber, Majoli, Date, Coetzer, Fernandez, the youngest Maleeva, a past her prime Sabatini were still completely hopeless vs Seles and dominated by her. It wasnt until the next generation of talented players like Hingis, Davenport, and the Williams emerged that a much weakened, eating disorder blimped Seles was dropped outside the dominant few players of the game. Heck Davenport when she was fat as a U-haul herself in 96, Hingis at only 15 in 96, and players of the new generation who never managed a slam vs new field like Rubin and Spirlea, even gave Seles a much tougher time than the talentless Graf contemporaries I mentioned. What does that say about the lame ass field of wannabees Graf piled up so many more slams against after Seles was stabbed. Graf herself ducked from this new field of women, conveniently becoming too "injured" to play regularly from 97 onwards after having mighty trouble with a 15 year old Hingis several times in 1996, and then smartly retiring on a high note after her fluke final French Open title and Wimbledon final.
I will give Graf credit for one thing. She is an opportunist. When the opportunities that keep seeming to fall from the sky for her come she gobbles them up like a hungry wolf being fed meat. Rarely has an athlete in any sport who was so far from being the greatest ever been able to delude over half of experts and the public she is somehow by taking advantage of so many outrageously lucky pieces of fortune and timing, and by being intuitive and clever enough to duck for cover at the right moments when things that could expose how overrated she really is come into the fray.
Had she not been stabbed I believe Seles would have dominated the tour for 3-4 more years at least. While away she actually grew 3 inches I believe. Had she been playing she would have found even greater angles on the great groundstrokes in women's history.
Good to see someone with a brain.
These are my all time rankings:
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Serena Williams
4. Monica Seles
5. Venus Williams
6. Maureen Connolly
7. Margaret Court
8. Suzanne Lenglen
9. Helen Wills Moody
10. Billie Jean King
11. Evonne Goolagong
12. Maria Bueno
13. Jennifer Capriati
14. Lindsay Davenport
15. Steffi Graf
Her serve was also improving. She outserved Graf in the 1993 Australian Open final which had never happened in their matches before. The one aspect of her game that was better after the stabbing than before was the serve, so imagine what it would have been like. It would have made her even tougher to play and beat.
BTW in that 10-8 French final that Graf lovers use as "proof" that Steffi was somehow going to start beating Monica again. Monica was in control if that 10-8 set. Graf had to struggle mightily to win her games. Monica pressured her and pressured. I never felt like Graf was going to win that match. Being a great player herself she kept tying in the 3rd set but I always felt like she was behind and would lose to the superior player and she did.
Wow well if Graf 'struggled mightily' to win her games, Seles must've been pretty **** to not finish her off sooner eh?
I'm not Jules. Graf is an all time great.
Capriati and Davenport? Are you f-ing high?
I know. You appear to be sane.
LOL. There are two camps normally in this battle
1) Seles was clearly better than Graf at the time of the stabbing and would have continued to beat Graf more often than not in the Grand Slams and remained number 1.
2) Graf and Seles were virtually even at the time of stabbing and Graf's elevated level of play in the post stabbing years would have allowed her to overtake Monica.
I happen to be in the first camp is all.
Capriati and Davenport? Are you f-ing high?
Fair play. Sorry Jules just gets me a bit riled up. I usually say that it can be debated forever but a conclusion can probably never be reached which satisfies everyone.
Which is what makes it fun and frustrating we will never know. Unlike with Martina and Evert.
But Julesb does give Seles fans a bad name. I remember a couple of months ago she was insisting as usual that Monica is the GOAT and also the greatest grass court player of all time, and went on to claim that Virginia Wade is the #2 player of all time. :shock:
For the record I do like Monica, she's a legend and seems like a great person.
No one has ever hit a tennis ball like she did. Her control was freakish and probabaly with an all gut set up. She would have been sick with poly.
Here is how see ladies' tennis in the open era:
Group 1a: Court, Graf, Navratilova, Evert. I order them as sketched, but you don't really rank goddesses.
Group 1b: Seles, King, Serena. The demi-goddesses. Well, make that three-quarters.
Group 2: Goolagong, Venus, Henin, Hingis, Sanchez-Vicario, Mandlikova, Davenport, Capriati. Superb players who at one point dominated the game, but mere mortals.
Here is how see ladies' tennis in the open era:
Group 1a: Court, Graf, Navratilova, Evert. I order them as sketched, but you don't really rank goddesses.
Group 1b: Seles, King, Serena. The demi-goddesses. Well, make that three-quarters.
Group 2: Goolagong, Venus, Henin, Hingis, Sanchez-Vicario, Mandlikova, Davenport, Capriati. Superb players who at one point dominated the game, but mere mortals.
LOL Sanchez Vicario does not belong in the same group as Venus, Henin, Goolagong, Hingis, and even Mandlikova. That lucky fluke would be sitting on 1 slam today if it were not for the Seles stabbing. Hingis was slapping around Sanchez Vicario like a toy poodle from the first time they played basically.
Didn't Court win a million Australian Opens against no one and not even posses a topspin backhand?
Didn't Court win a million Australian Opens against no one and not even posses a topspin backhand?
Hi Henry, welcome to the forums.
Nice list, what are your reasons for ranking Court as #1?
Really strange to call somebody overrated if she has won that many majors. It must really be an American thing since I only see them use these kinds of arguments(Weak era, no competition), no respect for the players. Really sad thing if you ask me.
Just respect Graf for what she has done and move on. Nobody can say what would have happened. Seles returned to the tour and did not perform as good as before. Maybe she simply was not as good as some of you remembered and maybe she never quite reached her old form. It is all up to interpretation. Maybe Graf would have won less slams if Seles was still around back then and maybe Graf would have won the same amound of slams and maybe she would even have won more slams(If Seles eliminated some tough competition).
Let's take an example, If we look at the head to head of Federer vs Hewitt. Everybody would now say that Federer was better, but if he would have been stabbed say in 2003 and out for a long time everybody would say yeah Hewitt had a possitive head to head against Federer of 7-2 Hewitt was better. Now the head to head is 14-7 in Federer's favor. Same thing for Federer vs Nalbandian 2-5 up in 2003 10-8 down now. See how this wouldn't be a fair argument, people change!
You just can't tell, so there is no reason to be so condescending towards Graf's achievements.
Really strange to call somebody overrated if she has won that many majors. It must really be an American thing since I only see them use these kinds of arguments(Weak era, no competition), no respect for the players. Really sad thing if you ask me.
Just respect Graf for what she has done and move on. Nobody can say what would have happened. Seles returned to the tour and did not perform as good as before. Maybe she simply was not as good as some of you remembered and maybe she never quite reached her old form. It is all up to interpretation. Maybe Graf would have won less slams if Seles was still around back then and maybe Graf would have won the same amound of slams and maybe she would even have won more slams(If Seles eliminated some tough competition).
Let's take an example, If we look at the head to head of Federer vs Hewitt. Everybody would now say that Federer was better, but if he would have been stabbed say in 2003 and out for a long time everybody would say yeah Hewitt had a possitive head to head against Federer of 7-2 Hewitt was better. Now the head to head is 14-7 in Federer's favor. Same thing for Federer vs Nalbandian 2-5 up in 2003 10-8 down now. See how this wouldn't be a fair argument, people change!
You just can't tell, so there is no reason to be so condescending towards Graf's achievements.
Really strange to call somebody overrated if she has won that many majors. It must really be an American thing since I only see them use these kinds of arguments(Weak era, no competition), no respect for the players. Really sad thing if you ask me.
Just respect Graf for what she has done and move on. Nobody can say what would have happened. Seles returned to the tour and did not perform as good as before. Maybe she simply was not as good as some of you remembered and maybe she never quite reached her old form. It is all up to interpretation. Maybe Graf would have won less slams if Seles was still around back then and maybe Graf would have won the same amound of slams and maybe she would even have won more slams(If Seles eliminated some tough competition).
Let's take an example, If we look at the head to head of Federer vs Hewitt. Everybody would now say that Federer was better, but if he would have been stabbed say in 2003 and out for a long time everybody would say yeah Hewitt had a possitive head to head against Federer of 7-2 Hewitt was better. Now the head to head is 14-7 in Federer's favor. Same thing for Federer vs Nalbandian 2-5 up in 2003 10-8 down now. See how this wouldn't be a fair argument, people change!
You just can't tell, so there is no reason to be so condescending towards Graf's achievements.
BTW in that 10-8 French final that Graf lovers use as "proof" that Steffi was somehow going to start beating Monica again. Monica was in control if that 10-8 set. Graf had to struggle mightily to win her games. Monica pressured her and pressured. I never felt like Graf was going to win that match. Being a great player herself she kept tying in the 3rd set but I always felt like she was behind and would lose to the superior player and she did.
You amaze me. WHO WON THE FREAKING MATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Didn't Court win a million Australian Opens against no one and not even posses a topspin backhand?
Didn't Court win a million Australian Opens against no one and not even posses a topspin backhand?
Really strange to call somebody overrated if she has won that many majors. It must really be an American thing since I only see them use these kinds of arguments(Weak era, no competition), no respect for the players. Really sad thing if you ask me.
Just respect Graf for what she has done and move on. Nobody can say what would have happened. Seles returned to the tour and did not perform as good as before. Maybe she simply was not as good as some of you remembered and maybe she never quite reached her old form. It is all up to interpretation. Maybe Graf would have won less slams if Seles was still around back then and maybe Graf would have won the same amound of slams and maybe she would even have won more slams(If Seles eliminated some tough competition).
Let's take an example, If we look at the head to head of Federer vs Hewitt. Everybody would now say that Federer was better, but if he would have been stabbed say in 2003 and out for a long time everybody would say yeah Hewitt had a possitive head to head against Federer of 7-2 Hewitt was better. Now the head to head is 14-7 in Federer's favor. Same thing for Federer vs Nalbandian 2-5 up in 2003 10-8 down now. See how this wouldn't be a fair argument, people change!
You just can't tell, so there is no reason to be so condescending towards Graf's achievements.
Possession of a topspin backhand was/is no measure of a player's ability. Ken Rosewall didn't possess a topspin backhand and he managed to do fairly well. Jimmy Connors didn't hit a topspin backhand and he eeked out a few wins. Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova were respectively flat/slice players who didn't hit topspin off that wing and I think they won a few matches as well.
Topspin didn't come into vogue until Borg. Yes, Laver hit a topspin backhand, but if you watch his matches, he rallied and generally relied on his sliced backhand. The topspin was hit when he had the time, opportunity, or was forced to hit it. Players from that era used a slice on the backhand side almost exclusively.
Really strange to call somebody overrated if she has won that many majors. It must really be an American thing since I only see them use these kinds of arguments(Weak era, no competition), no respect for the players. Really sad thing if you ask me.