Surface of original French Championships (1891-1925)

I am curious to know on what surface the precursor of the present-day French Championships at Roland Garros were played. They began in 1891, in extremely modest circumstances, at the Racing Club de France in Paris and were won by an Englishman, one Mr Briggs (up until 1925 they were open only to professionals licensed with a French club).

I know the World Hard Court Championships were played on clay from 1912-14 and again from 1920-23, but that is a different tournament to the one played at the Racing Club de France, where there were certainly grass courts early on before clay took over.

Does anyone have concrete evidence of the surface used at the Racing Club de France way back then?

The surface was "Terre Battue", known in Great Britain as hard courts and in the USA as red clay.

The tourney was from 1891 and onwards held on the grounds of the sports society of the Ile de Puteaux on the Seine.

The true Precursor

newmark401 said:

I am curious to know on what surface the precursor of the present-day French Championships at Roland Garros were played.
I know the World Hard Court Championships were played on clay from 1912-14 and again from 1920-23...QUOTE]

Looks like Borg Forever came up with the surface. However, I do think the World Hard Court Championships were the true precursor to the French Championships, not the French tournament that was only open to members of French Clubs. The reason I think this is that it is more than a coincidence that the French Championships became open in 1925, straight after the Last World Hard Court Championships in 1923 + the 1924 Paris Olympics (they didn't play the WHCC that year because of the Olympics). Hence, its clear that the WHCC was the precursor not the French Tournament open to French Clubs.

I have always found it interesting that Suzanne Lenglen gets credit for WHCC wins as if they are Roland Garros wins on sites such as Wikipedia, but players such as Tony Wilding (WHCC winner 1913/14) or Bill Tilden (1921) don't get the same credit. (Bill Tilden's WHCC is listed in Wikipedia because I put it there, but not given the same honour as a French Open win).

Click to expand...

Agree in full with Timnz -- it's also correct on all points...

Borgforever said:

The surface was "Terre Battue", known in Great Britain as hard courts and in the USA as red clay.

The tourney was from 1891 and onwards held on the grounds of the sports society of the Ile de Puteaux on the Seine.

Click to expand...

It's interesting that you state the event was first held at the Ile de Puteaux club. I have heard this mentioned once or twice. A lot of sources state that it was held alternatively at the Racing Club de France and the Stade Francais, but this appears to be wrong. Certainly, the event in question was held at the Racing Club de France in 1914 and, after the war, from 1920-24 at the same venue. I have concrete proof of that.

I also know where it was held from 1925 to 1927 before the Roland Garros stadium was opened. It also seem clear that, by 1914, the surface was clay.

However, my suspicion is that the original venue was and contined to be the Racing Club de France (with a one-off switch in venue to Bordeaux in 1909. I have concrete proof of that, too). I know that the first courts laid at the Racing Club de France, in 1886, were grass. But it is clear that they switched to clay at some point.

It is possible that no one ever noted the original surface for the tournament in question and that it will therefore never be known.

What are your sources?

Mine are Lance Tingay and the written personal experiences of A. Wallis Myers. Thing is -- the original RG-precursor completely lacks the credentials of a major international championship just because it was open to only French club players and foreigners permanently living in France.

As Timnz point out.

Still it's interesting to hear what you've found out...

Borgforever said:

What are your sources?

Mine are Lance Tingay and the written personal experiences of A. Wallis Myers. Thing is -- the original RG-precursor completely lacks the credentials of a major international championship just because it was open to only French club players and foreigners permanently living in France.

As Timnz point out.

Still it's interesting to hear what you've found out...

Click to expand...

I have one or two relatively reliable sources, including "Tennis - A Cultural History" by Heiner Gillmeister and one or two in French.

If you are sure of your sources, could you possible let me know at what venue(s) and and on what surface(s) this original championship was held from 1891-1913?

Tingay and Myers both only state that the first French Champs were held from 1891 at Ile de Puteaux at the Seine on red clay. Nothing else.

I'm not disputing anything you say -- that's just my sources.

The red clay Ile de Puteaux-courts were used in the Paris Olympics in 1900 -- were H. L. won...

timnz said:

However, I do think the World Hard Court Championships were the true precursor to the French Championships, not the French tournament that was only open to members of French Clubs. The reason I think this is that it is more than a coincidence that the French Championships became open in 1925, straight after the Last World Hard Court Championships in 1923 + the 1924 Paris Olympics (they didn't play the WHCC that year because of the Olympics). Hence, its clear that the WHCC was the precursor not the French Tournament open to French Clubs.

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I noticed in the New York Times that the French title, when it went international in 1925, was still referred to as "the international hard court championship," which is essentially what you're saying: the French title was considered the successor to the WHCC.

Even in 1930 when Cochet beat Tilden at Roland Garros the Times called it "the French Hard Court final."

Also, the WHCC was held at the same venue that the French title went to in 1925-27 (the Woodland courts in St. Cloud), before the switch to Roland Garros.

And the WHCC finished in early June, same as the French championship since at least 1925.

But that makes me wonder, was the French national title, before 1925, held at some other time of the year?

And does anyone know what the surface was for the 1924 Olympic tournament at Colombes?

krosero said:

I noticed in the New York Times that the French title, when it went international in 1925, was still referred to as "the international hard court championship," which is essentially what you're saying: the French title was considered the successor to the WHCC.

Even in 1930 when Cochet beat Tilden at Roland Garros the Times called it "the French Hard Court final."

Also, the WHCC was held at the same venue that the French title went to in 1925-27 (the Woodland courts in St. Cloud), before the switch to Roland Garros.

And the WHCC finished in early June, same as the French championship since at least 1925.

But that makes me wonder, was the French national title, before 1925, held at some other time of the year?

And does anyone know what the surface was for the 1924 Olympic tournament at Colombes?

Click to expand...

Let's not get carried away here. The World Hard Court Championships (in French, Les championnats du monde sur terre battue, which is really the World Clay Court Championships, but I know what they mean) were held seven times - from 1912 to 1914 and, after the war, again from 1920-23. The venue each year was the clay courts of the Stade Francais in Saint Cloud, with one exception, namely 1922, when they were held at the Royal Leopold Club in Brussels, Belgium.

The WHCC was not played in 1924, when Paris hosted the Olympic Games, with the tennis event being held in the Colombes district on the outskirts of the city. The event was held outdoors and on red clay. "On the outskirts of Paris, Colombes was a dusty manufacturing district dotted with dirty cafes and grimy buildings. What greeted the team when they first arrived and viewed the court site was a Fellini-like surrealism. In the background, where the roaring crescendos of approval would soon erupt, was a large stadium in a barren field overgrown with dry woods and stickers. Close to it, anxious for a moment in the spotlight, brawny wrestlers practiced on a platform, and
on a frame of rods and bars, chiseled gymnasts polished their daring feats of precision. In the foreground was the shocking sight of pyramid piles of red clay and sand – the tennis courts." (Helen Wills, winner of the singles - and ladies' doubles with Hazel Wightman - wrote that in her autobiograpy "Fifteen-Thirty".)

In 1925, the French Championships, which had hitherto been open only to French nationals and other players licensed with French tennis clubs, became open to all amateurs. The FC were held at the Stade Francais in 1925, the Racing Club de France in 1926 and then again at the Stade Francais in 1927 (always on red clay). In 1928, the Roland Garros stadium was opened and the event has been held there ever since. It's the one Federer and Kuznetsova won earlier this year.

This French Championships - open only to French nationals and other players licensed with French tennis clubs - appears to have began in 1891 at the Racing Club de France in Paris (sufrace unknown). An Englishman H. Briggs won it (there were five participants and it was all held on one day).

In 1897, a women's singles event was held for the first time. It was won by Adine Masson. The venue may still probably have been the Racing Club de France in Paris. The surface is still uncertain (clay or grass).

By 1914 this French Championships was (still) being held at the Racing Club de France in Paris. The reason we know this is that Suzanne Lenglen, aged 14, lost the final that year to Marguerite Broquedis. By this time the surface was definitely clay.

After the war this same French Championships was held at the same venue (Racing Club de France in Paris) and on the same surface (clay) from 1920-24. We know what happened in 1925. It became open to all amateur players from all countries and was held at the Stade Francais in Saint Cloud twice (1925 and 1927) and at the Racing Club de France once (1926). Then came the definitive move to Roland Garros.

The period 1891 to 1913 is very vague. Certainly there were a number of grass courts at the Racing Club de France when it was founded in the early 1880s, but the change to clay was obviously made at some point. When, is the question. Hopefully it will be possible to clarify this question in the near future.

krosero said:

I noticed in the New York Times that the French title, when it went international in 1925, was still referred to as "the international hard court championship," which is essentially what you're saying: the French title was considered the successor to the WHCC.

Even in 1930 when Cochet beat Tilden at Roland Garros the Times called it "the French Hard Court final."

Also, the WHCC was held at the same venue that the French title went to in 1925-27 (the Woodland courts in St. Cloud), before the switch to Roland Garros.

And the WHCC finished in early June, same as the French championship since at least 1925.

But that makes me wonder, was the French national title, before 1925, held at some other time of the year?

And does anyone know what the surface was for the 1924 Olympic tournament at Colombes?

Click to expand...

Let's not get carried away here. The World Hard Court Championships (in French, Les championnats du monde sur terre battue, which is really the World Clay Court Championships, but I know what they mean) were held seven times - from 1912 to 1914 and, after the war, again from 1920-23. The venue each year was the clay courts of the Stade Francais in Saint Cloud, with one exception, namely 1922, when they were held at the Royal Leopold Club in Brussels, Belgium.

The WHCC was not played in 1924, when Paris hosted the Olympic Games, with the tennis event being held in the Colombes district on the outskirts of the city. The event was held outdoors and on red clay. "On the outskirts of Paris, Colombes was a dusty manufacturing district dotted with dirty cafes and grimy buildings. What greeted the team when they first arrived and viewed the court site was a Fellini-like surrealism. In the background, where the roaring crescendos of approval would soon erupt, was a large stadium in a barren field overgrown with dry woods and stickers. Close to it, anxious for a moment in the spotlight, brawny wrestlers practiced on a platform, and
on a frame of rods and bars, chiseled gymnasts polished their daring feats of precision. In the foreground was the shocking sight of pyramid piles of red clay and sand – the tennis courts." (Helen Wills, winner of the singles - and ladies' doubles with Hazel Wightman - wrote that in her autobiograpy "Fifteen-Thirty".)

In 1925, the French Championships, which had hitherto been open only to French nationals and other players licensed with French tennis clubs, became open to all amateurs. The FC were held at the Stade Francais in 1925, the Racing Club de France in 1926 and then again at the Stade Francais in 1927 (always on red clay). In 1928, the Roland Garros stadium was opened and the event has been held there ever since. It's the one Federer and Kuznetsova won earlier this year.

This French Championships - open only to French nationals and other players licensed with French tennis clubs - appears to have began in 1891 at the Racing Club de France in Paris (sufrace unknown). An Englishman H. Briggs won it (there were five participants and it was all held on one day).

In 1897, a women's singles event was held for the first time. It was won by Adine Masson. The venue may still probably have been the Racing Club de France in Paris. The surface is still uncertain (clay or grass).

By 1914 this French Championships was (still) being held at the Racing Club de France in Paris. The reason we know this is that Suzanne Lenglen, aged 14, lost the final that year to Marguerite Broquedis. By this time the surface was definitely clay.

After the war this same French Championships was held at the same venue (Racing Club de France in Paris) and on the same surface (clay) from 1920-24. We know what happened in 1925. It became open to all amateur players from all countries and was held at the Stade Francais in Saint Cloud twice (1925 and 1927) and at the Racing Club de France once (1926). Then came the definitive move to Roland Garros.

The period 1891 to 1913 is very vague. Certainly there were a number of grass courts at the Racing Club de France when it was founded in the early 1880s, but the change to clay was obviously made at some point. When, is the question. Hopefully it will be possible to clarify this question in the near future.

Here's the complete answer. Read this page for full info on the Racing Club, The world hard court tourney, the French and Paris championships and the stunning red clay courts at Ile de Puteaux, who is stated as the main holder of the first local French Champs alternating with the Racing Club, which had clay tourneys from the 1890s onwards -- the grass courts were changed almost immediately because they were impractical in the weather...

http://books.google.com/books?id=hf...esult&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false

newmark401 said:

Let's not get carried away here. The World Hard Court Championships (in French, Les championnats du monde sur terre battue, which is really the World Clay Court Championships, but I know what they mean) were held seven times - from 1912 to 1914 and, after the war, again from 1920-23. The venue each year was the clay courts of the Stade Francais in Saint Cloud, with one exception, namely 1922, when they were held at the Royal Leopold Club in Brussels, Belgium.

The WHCC was not played in 1924, when Paris hosted the Olympic Games, with the tennis event being held in the Colombes district on the outskirts of the city. The event was held outdoors and on red clay. "On the outskirts of Paris, Colombes was a dusty manufacturing district dotted with dirty cafes and grimy buildings. What greeted the team when they first arrived and viewed the court site was a Fellini-like surrealism. In the background, where the roaring crescendos of approval would soon erupt, was a large stadium in a barren field overgrown with dry woods and stickers. Close to it, anxious for a moment in the spotlight, brawny wrestlers practiced on a platform, and
on a frame of rods and bars, chiseled gymnasts polished their daring feats of precision. In the foreground was the shocking sight of pyramid piles of red clay and sand – the tennis courts." (Helen Wills, winner of the singles - and ladies' doubles with Hazel Wightman - wrote that in her autobiograpy "Fifteen-Thirty".)

In 1925, the French Championships, which had hitherto been open only to French nationals and other players licensed with French tennis clubs, became open to all amateurs. The FC were held at the Stade Francais in 1925, the Racing Club de France in 1926 and then again at the Stade Francais in 1927 (always on red clay). In 1928, the Roland Garros stadium was opened and the event has been held there ever since. It's the one Federer and Kuznetsova won earlier this year.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed information, particularly the one-off venue switches in 1922 and 1926 and the excerpt from Wills.

I hope you post as many excerpts as you like; on this board they're definitely appreciated.

I'm not sure where you disagreed with my post. If it was about the nature of the two tournaments, the WHCC and the FC, they were certainly different tournaments. No question about that.

What I found interesting was what Timniz said about the WHCC being the true precursor to the international FC (something I've heard other posters say, too). The book that Borgforever linked to says that the WHCC "evolved into" the FC, and I wonder what he means by that. Officially, they were different tournaments, and they're listed as such everywhere. But there seem to be more similarities than differences.

Both were international tournaments. The WHCC finished at St. Cloud, and the (international) FC started there. A fan in 1923 witnessing the world's claycourt championship at St. Cloud would return in 1925, after the Olympic break, to the same place at the same time of year and again see an international draw competing for what was considered the world's premier claycourt title.

In 1921 when Tilden and Lenglen won the WHCC, the New York Times called it the “World’s Hard-Court Tennis Title.” In 1925 they referred to the FC as “the international hard court championship.” In 1930 they referred to it as “the French hard-court tourney”.

I just found those similarities striking, and I wonder what Gillmeister meant by "evolved into."

Do you know if the WHCC was always held in late May and early June? I know it was in its last years, with the exception of 1922 when Brussels hosted it in mid-May.

That year, per the NY Times, Lenglen won the women’s FC on June 10, but is that when the FC was always held, mid-June?

BF -- do your sources note the time of year?

Borgforever said:

Here's the complete answer. Read this page for full info on the Racing Club, The world hard court tourney, the French and Paris championships and the stunning red clay courts at Ile de Puteaux, who is stated as the main holder of the first local French Champs alternating with the Racing Club, which had clay tourneys from the 1890s onwards -- the grass courts were changed almost immediately because they were impractical in the weather...

http://books.google.com/books?id=hf...esult&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Click to expand...

Thanks. This is now my tentative chrononlogy for the French National Championships (this has nothing to do with the World Hard Court Championships, whose years and surface are crystal clear):

1891-1908 Ile de Puteaux, Paris (clay or asphalt)
1909 Société athlétique de la Villa Primrose, Bordeaux (probably clay)
1910-1914 Racing Club de France, Paris (clay)
1920-1924 Racing Club de France, Paris (clay)

I'm not fully happy with this chronology, but it will do for the moment.

Interesting

krosero said:

I noticed in the New York Times that the French title, when it went international in 1925, was still referred to as "the international hard court championship," which is essentially what you're saying: the French title was considered the successor to the WHCC.

Even in 1930 when Cochet beat Tilden at Roland Garros the Times called it "the French Hard Court final."

Also, the WHCC was held at the same venue that the French title went to in 1925-27 (the Woodland courts in St. Cloud), before the switch to Roland Garros.

And the WHCC finished in early June, same as the French championship since at least 1925.

But that makes me wonder, was the French national title, before 1925, held at some other time of the year?

And does anyone know what the surface was for the 1924 Olympic tournament at Colombes?

Click to expand...

I can't remember specifically where I read it but I seem to recall reading somewhere that circa 1927 Tilden was back to try to win the 'French Championship'. The implication was that he was trying to win again what he won in 1921 (when he won the WHCC).

My motivation: I'd like to see players who won the WHCC like Tilden get a tick in the box for winning the French Open (or at least the equivalent). From my way of thinking, it was not of lesser status. In fact it was regarded as the world championship on that surface.

timnz said:

I can't remember specifically where I read it but I seem to recall reading somewhere that circa 1927 Tilden was back to try to win the 'French Championship'. The implication was that he was trying to win again what he won in 1921 (when he won the WHCC).

My motivation: I'd like to see players who won the WHCC like Tilden get a tick in the box for winning the French Open (or at least the equivalent). From my way of thinking, it was not of lesser status. In fact it was regarded as the world championship on that surface.

Click to expand...

René Lacoste beat Bill Tilden 6–4, 4–6, 5–7, 6–3, 11–9 in the 1927 French Championship final, two years after it had been opened to foreign nationals not licensed in France, in other words to all amateur players. It was held at the Stade Francais in Saint Cloud in 1925, the Racing Club de France in 1926, then again at the Stade Francais in 1927 before the Stade Roland-Garros was opened in 1928. The surface from 1925 onwards was - and still is - clay.

timnz said:

I can't remember specifically where I read it but I seem to recall reading somewhere that circa 1927 Tilden was back to try to win the 'French Championship'. The implication was that he was trying to win again what he won in 1921 (when he won the WHCC).

My motivation: I'd like to see players who won the WHCC like Tilden get a tick in the box for winning the French Open (or at least the equivalent). From my way of thinking, it was not of lesser status. In fact it was regarded as the world championship on that surface.

Click to expand...

I really look at it the same way, and it seems somewhat different from when we say that Rosewall or Laver had Slam "equivalents", in their pro victories. In those cases you're comparing amateurs against pros, and the draws were not the same sizes. I don't see such problems of comparison between the WHCC and the (international) FC -- I'm not even sure if there were minor differences between the two tournaments.

French nationals would have come to the 1925 tournament aware that their own national championship was no longer a separate tournament, and perhaps that made a difference to them. But from a pure tennis point of view, considering the tennis that was taking place on the grounds -- was there any significant change between the last WHCC and the first (international) FC?

(I want to add, I have no problem with the idea of equivalents between pro and amateur titles. It's better than simply saying that Pancho Gonzales has only two majors. But you're still weighing different things when you compare the worlds of the pros and amateurs; that's the whole purpose.)

timnz said:

I can't remember specifically where I read it but I seem to recall reading somewhere that circa 1927 Tilden was back to try to win the 'French Championship'. The implication was that he was trying to win again what he won in 1921 (when he won the WHCC).

Click to expand...

And it's interesting, if Tilden himself thought that he was competing for the same title (the championship of France, like that of England or the U.S.), that we don't think of it the same way.

krosero said:

And it's interesting, if Tilden himself thought that he was competing for the same title (the championship of France, like that of England or the U.S.), that we don't think of it the same way.

Click to expand...

A lot of people do think of it the same way. Tilden referred to the (closed) French tournament as the championships of France. He calls the other tournament the "Hard Court Championship of the World", which is another way of saying the "World Hard Court Championship". Here he is, in his book "The Art of Lawn Tennis", describing the visit of the American contingent to the event in 1921:

The United States Lawn Tennis Association, following its policy of co-operation with the International Federation, decided to send a team to France and England for the championships. The personnel of the team was Mrs. Franklin L. [Molla] Mallory, Miss Edith Sigourney, Arnold W. Jones (boy champion of America, 1919), and myself. J.D.E. Jones, father of Arnold, himself a tennis player of renown, accompanied the team, as did Mr. Mallory.

The invading tennis players sailed May 12th [1921] on the Mauretania to Cherbourg and from there journeyed to Paris, where they engaged in the Hard Court Championship of the world.

The first week of the stay was devoted to practice on the courts at the Stade Français, St. Cloud, where the championship was held. The team were the guests of the Racing Club at a most delightful luncheon and shortly afterward dined as the guests of the Tennis Club of Paris.

The finals of the championship of France were held during our stay and, greatly to our surprise, A. [André] H. Gobert, the defending title holder, fell a victim to his old enemy, heat, and went down to defeat before Samazieuhl [Jean Samazeuilh]. The Hard Court championships of the world produced a series of the most sensational upsets in the history of the game, a series, I might add, that did much to allow me to win the event. Gobert lost to Nicholas Mishu in the first round. [Manuel] Alonzo, after defeating Samazieuhl [Samazeuilh], went down to defeat at hands of [William] Laurentz, who in turn collapsed to [Erik] Tegner. Fate pursued the winners, for Tegner was eliminated by [Jean] Washer [of Belgium], who came through to the final against me. Either Alonzo or Laurentz should have been finalists if the unexpected had not occurred, and either would have been a hard proposition for me, particularly in my condition. I had been taken ill on my arrival in Paris and was still far from well. However, Fortune smiled on me and I succeeded in defeating Washer 6-3, 6-3, 6-3.

Meanwhile the long awaited meeting between Mlle. Lenglen and Mrs. Mallory was at hand. Mrs. Mallory had come through one side of the tournament after a bitter battle with Mme. Billoutt (Mlle. Brocadies [Marguerite Broquedis]) in the semi-final.

Mlle. Lenglen had proceeded in her usual leisurely fashion to the finals with the loss of but two games.

What a meeting these two great players, Mrs. Mallory and Mlle. Lenglen, had! Every seat in the stands sold and every inch of standing room crowded! It was a marvellous match, both women playing great tennis. Mlle. Lenglen had consistently better depth and more patience. She out-manoeuvred the American champion and won 6-2, 6-3. The match was far closer than this one-sided score sounds. Every rally was long drawn out and bitterly contested, but the French girl had a slight superiority that brought her a well deserved victory.

Lenglen - French Open Grand Slam totals

newmark401 said:

A lot of people do think of it the same way. Tilden referred to the (closed) French tournament as the championships of France. He calls the other tournament the "Hard Court Championship of the World", which is another way of saying the "World Hard Court Championship". Here he is, in his book "The Art of Lawn Tennis", describing the visit of the American contingent to the event in 1921:

The United States Lawn Tennis Association, following its policy of co-operation with the International Federation, decided to send a team to France and England for the championships. The personnel of the team was Mrs. Franklin L. [Molla] Mallory, Miss Edith Sigourney, Arnold W. Jones (boy champion of America, 1919), and myself. J.D.E. Jones, father of Arnold, himself a tennis player of renown, accompanied the team, as did Mr. Mallory.

The invading tennis players sailed May 12th [1921] on the Mauretania to Cherbourg and from there journeyed to Paris, where they engaged in the Hard Court Championship of the world.

The first week of the stay was devoted to practice on the courts at the Stade Français, St. Cloud, where the championship was held. The team were the guests of the Racing Club at a most delightful luncheon and shortly afterward dined as the guests of the Tennis Club of Paris.

The finals of the championship of France were held during our stay and, greatly to our surprise, A. [André] H. Gobert, the defending title holder, fell a victim to his old enemy, heat, and went down to defeat before Samazieuhl [Jean Samazeuilh]. The Hard Court championships of the world produced a series of the most sensational upsets in the history of the game, a series, I might add, that did much to allow me to win the event. Gobert lost to Nicholas Mishu in the first round. [Manuel] Alonzo, after defeating Samazieuhl [Samazeuilh], went down to defeat at hands of [William] Laurentz, who in turn collapsed to [Erik] Tegner. Fate pursued the winners, for Tegner was eliminated by [Jean] Washer [of Belgium], who came through to the final against me. Either Alonzo or Laurentz should have been finalists if the unexpected had not occurred, and either would have been a hard proposition for me, particularly in my condition. I had been taken ill on my arrival in Paris and was still far from well. However, Fortune smiled on me and I succeeded in defeating Washer 6-3, 6-3, 6-3.

Meanwhile the long awaited meeting between Mlle. Lenglen and Mrs. Mallory was at hand. Mrs. Mallory had come through one side of the tournament after a bitter battle with Mme. Billoutt (Mlle. Brocadies [Marguerite Broquedis]) in the semi-final.

Mlle. Lenglen had proceeded in her usual leisurely fashion to the finals with the loss of but two games.

What a meeting these two great players, Mrs. Mallory and Mlle. Lenglen, had! Every seat in the stands sold and every inch of standing room crowded! It was a marvellous match, both women playing great tennis. Mlle. Lenglen had consistently better depth and more patience. She out-manoeuvred the American champion and won 6-2, 6-3. The match was far closer than this one-sided score sounds. Every rally was long drawn out and bitterly contested, but the French girl had a slight superiority that brought her a well deserved victory.

Click to expand...

This adds credence to the thought that the WHCC were the true fore-runner of the French Open.

Question: Should the pre-1925 Grand Slam total wins of Lenglen for the French Open be taken from her French Championships wins (open to only French Club members) or from her WHCC wins?

newmark401 said:

A lot of people do think of it the same way. Tilden referred to the (closed) French tournament as the championships of France. He calls the other tournament the "Hard Court Championship of the World", which is another way of saying the "World Hard Court Championship". Here he is, in his book "The Art of Lawn Tennis", describing the visit of the American contingent to the event in 1921:

The United States Lawn Tennis Association, following its policy of co-operation with the International Federation, decided to send a team to France and England for the championships. The personnel of the team was Mrs. Franklin L. [Molla] Mallory, Miss Edith Sigourney, Arnold W. Jones (boy champion of America, 1919), and myself. J.D.E. Jones, father of Arnold, himself a tennis player of renown, accompanied the team, as did Mr. Mallory.

The invading tennis players sailed May 12th [1921] on the Mauretania to Cherbourg and from there journeyed to Paris, where they engaged in the Hard Court Championship of the world.

The first week of the stay was devoted to practice on the courts at the Stade Français, St. Cloud, where the championship was held. The team were the guests of the Racing Club at a most delightful luncheon and shortly afterward dined as the guests of the Tennis Club of Paris.

The finals of the championship of France were held during our stay and, greatly to our surprise, A. [André] H. Gobert, the defending title holder, fell a victim to his old enemy, heat, and went down to defeat before Samazieuhl [Jean Samazeuilh]. The Hard Court championships of the world produced a series of the most sensational upsets in the history of the game, a series, I might add, that did much to allow me to win the event. Gobert lost to Nicholas Mishu in the first round. [Manuel] Alonzo, after defeating Samazieuhl [Samazeuilh], went down to defeat at hands of [William] Laurentz, who in turn collapsed to [Erik] Tegner. Fate pursued the winners, for Tegner was eliminated by [Jean] Washer [of Belgium], who came through to the final against me. Either Alonzo or Laurentz should have been finalists if the unexpected had not occurred, and either would have been a hard proposition for me, particularly in my condition. I had been taken ill on my arrival in Paris and was still far from well. However, Fortune smiled on me and I succeeded in defeating Washer 6-3, 6-3, 6-3.

Meanwhile the long awaited meeting between Mlle. Lenglen and Mrs. Mallory was at hand. Mrs. Mallory had come through one side of the tournament after a bitter battle with Mme. Billoutt (Mlle. Brocadies [Marguerite Broquedis]) in the semi-final.

Mlle. Lenglen had proceeded in her usual leisurely fashion to the finals with the loss of but two games.

What a meeting these two great players, Mrs. Mallory and Mlle. Lenglen, had! Every seat in the stands sold and every inch of standing room crowded! It was a marvellous match, both women playing great tennis. Mlle. Lenglen had consistently better depth and more patience. She out-manoeuvred the American champion and won 6-2, 6-3. The match was far closer than this one-sided score sounds. Every rally was long drawn out and bitterly contested, but the French girl had a slight superiority that brought her a well deserved victory.

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This is interesting, although he wrote it in 1921, when the FC was clearly a separate tournament and he witnessed it himself.

(Interesting that it took place during their stay; so in this year, at least, the FC was played in May or June. And in 1922 the women's FC definitely ended June 10. I wonder if that was its usual date; I just guess that it couldn't have been held during the WHCC because the French players would want to attend that one, too).

In May 1927 Tilden told the NY Times that he was looking forward to "the French hard court championships next week."

In May 1925 the Times wrote that Lenglen had registered for "the international hard court tennis championship."

I guess it's possible that outside of France, people would not necessarily even have known that the WHCC and the (closed) FC were no longer going to be held as separate tournaments.

Oh, just one thing, please put quotation marks around quotes. Sometimes in posts like these I get confused between the poster's voice and the quote. Thanks!

The way I read Gillmeister, the courts at the Racing Club remained grass courts until sometime after 1900:

In 1886, the municipality of the metropolis placed at the club’s disposal a plot for the laying of lawn tennis courts in the Bois de Boulogne and two grass courts were laid out at once. By the turn of the century, their number had increased to seven, even though the designers of the Racing Club had soon made the discovery themselves that on the continent grass courts were impossible to maintain. They were accordingly transmuted into clay courts.

I read that as seven grass courts. I think it could be read as seven tennis courts, already changed to clay. But grass courts make more sense as the subject because his next point is that the number increased to seven "even though" the designers quickly discovered the difficulties of grass.

That's just how I read it, but there is some ambiguity.

If true I don't know whether it has any bearing on the original surface of the FC. Gillmeister says the championships were held "by turns" at the Ile de Puteaux club and the Racing Club, which I take to mean one year here, the next year there (like the alternating in 1925-27 between St. Cloud and the Racing Club).

I know, Newmark, that your chronology has the Ile de Puteaux club all the way up to the Bordeaux year of 1909, and the Racing Club afterwards.

You and Borgforever are in agreement with Tingay and Myers that the venue in the very first year, 1891, was the Ile de Puteaux; Gillmeister also pointedly says the same thing about that first year. That seems to be the only agreement.

And you have asphalt down as a possible surface at the Ile de Puteaux, but I thought that those courts were definitely red clay (?)

newmark401 said:

Thanks. This is now my tentative chrononlogy for the French National Championships (this has nothing to do with the World Hard Court Championships, whose years and surface are crystal clear):

1891-1908 Ile de Puteaux, Paris (clay or asphalt)
1909 Société athlétique de la Villa Primrose, Bordeaux (probably clay)
1910-1914 Racing Club de France, Paris (clay)
1920-1924 Racing Club de France, Paris (clay)

I'm not fully happy with this chronology, but it will do for the moment.

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krosero said:

The way I read Gillmeister, the courts at the Racing Club remained grass courts until sometime after 1900:

In 1886, the municipality of the metropolis placed at the club’s disposal a plot for the laying of lawn tennis courts in the Bois de Boulogne and two grass courts were laid out at once. By the turn of the century, their number had increased to seven, even though the designers of the Racing Club had soon made the discovery themselves that on the continent grass courts were impossible to maintain. They were accordingly transmuted into clay courts.

I read that as seven grass courts. I think it could be read as seven tennis courts, already changed to clay. But grass courts make more sense as the subject because his next point is that the number increased to seven "even though" the designers quickly discovered the difficulties of grass.

That's just how I read it, but there is some ambiguity.

If true I don't know whether it has any bearing on the original surface of the FC. Gillmeister says the championships were held "by turns" at the Ile de Puteaux club and the Racing Club, which I take to mean one year here, the next year there (like the alternating in 1925-27 between St. Cloud and the Racing Club).

I know, Newmark, that your chronology has the Ile de Puteaux club all the way up to the Bordeaux year of 1909, and the Racing Club afterwards.

You and Borgforever are in agreement with Tingay and Myers that the venue in the very first year, 1891, was the Ile de Puteaux; Gillmeister also pointedly says the same thing about that first year. That seems to be the only agreement.

And you have asphalt down as a possible surface at the Ile de Puteaux, but I thought that those courts were definitely red clay (?)

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There are many sources and few of them agree on the original venue or the original surface. I don't agree with anyone, not even Gillmeister, regarding the Ile de Puteaux as the original venue. It is just a possibility. It was probably there or the Racing Club de France.

I would be surprised if the event alternated between the IdP and the RCdF. By 1914 the event was being held on clay at the RDdF in Paris and it was held there from 1920-24, too, and, for the last time in 1926.

I have seen pictures of the Ile de Puteaux club with both asphalt and clay courts. There is one illustration from circa 1900 with people playing tennis on what looks like an asphalt or white sand court. It's certainly not grass.

I'm quite certain this event was held in Bordeaux in 1909. There was a great rivalry between the main club in Bordeaux and those in Paris. It could be that it was held on the Ile de Puteaux from 1891-1908 then, after the one-off move to Bordeaux, it was held on clay at the Racing Club de France from 1910-1914.

But most of this is still speculation. Hence my very tentative chronology.

1926 French Open on Grass?

newmark401 said:

René Lacoste beat Bill Tilden 6–4, 4–6, 5–7, 6–3, 11–9 in the 1927 French Championship final, two years after it had been opened to foreign nationals not licensed in France, in other words to all amateur players. It was held at the Stade Francais in Saint Cloud in 1925, the Racing Club de France in 1926, then again at the Stade Francais in 1927 before the Stade Roland-Garros was opened in 1928. The surface from 1925 onwards was - and still is - clay.

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There is some indications in some quarters that the French Open at Racing Club de France in 1926 was on Grass. Are we able to confirm or deny this conclusively?

newmark401 said:

There are many sources and few of them agree on the original venue or the original surface. I don't agree with anyone, not even Gillmeister, regarding the Ile de Puteaux as the original venue. It is just a possibility. It was probably there or the Racing Club de France.

I would be surprised if the event alternated between the IdP and the RCdF. By 1914 the event was being held on clay at the RDdF in Paris and it was held there from 1920-24, too, and, for the last time in 1926.

I have seen pictures of the Ile de Puteaux club with both asphalt and clay courts. There is one illustration from circa 1900 with people playing tennis on what looks like an asphalt or white sand court. It's certainly not grass.

I'm quite certain this event was held in Bordeaux in 1909. There was a great rivalry between the main club in Bordeaux and those in Paris. It could be that it was held on the Ile de Puteaux from 1891-1908 then, after the one-off move to Bordeaux, it was held on clay at the Racing Club de France from 1910-1914.

But most of this is still speculation. Hence my very tentative chronology.

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I don't always have the time to chime in and write all I want to say but I must credit you Newmark401 with applause:

* This a great and important thread

* Your posts are uniformly great and succinct.

Kudos to you.

timnz said:

There is some indications in some quarters that the French Open at Racing Club de France in 1926 was on Grass. Are we able to confirm or deny this conclusively?

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What indications do you mean?

In '26 the New York Times had several articles throughout the tournament, referring to the "French hard court championships" or the "international hard-court tournament."

There's also Gillmeister's report that the original grasscourts were soon found to be impossible to maintain and changed to claycourts, though he doesn't say when the change occurred.

Thanks

krosero said:

What indications do you mean?

In '26 the New York Times had several articles throughout the tournament, referring to the "French hard court championships" or the "international hard-court tournament."

There's also Gillmeister's report that the original grasscourts were soon found to be impossible to maintain and changed to claycourts, though he doesn't say when the change occurred.

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Thanks - excellent, just the information I was after.

Borgforever said:

I don't always have the time to chime in and write all I want to say but I must credit you Newmark401 with applause:

* This a great and important thread

* Your posts are uniformly great and succinct.

Kudos to you.

Click to expand...

It's true, this is a good thread, and though all this stuff is kind of obscure, reading about it and trying to figure it out is suprisingly fun.

Found an interesting website with several pages on this topic.

http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/avant14/E-france-1.html

The tournament was opened in 1891 under the sponsorship of the Federation of French Associations for Athletic Sports (l’Union des Sociétés Française des Sports Athlétiques). It was held at the Racing Club de France in Paris and was from the outset given the prestigious title of “The French Championship”.

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http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/avant14/E-champ.html

We have not unfortunately been able to obtain a lot of detailed photographic records of the initial World Clay Championships that were held at Saint Cloud. These championships were, arguably, of equal prestige to Wimbledon at that time and were the direct equivalent of Roland-Garros today. They have however largely been passed over by tennis historians.

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http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/apres14/E-apres02.html

The whole issue turned into a turbulent argument at a meeting of the International Lawn Tennis Federation in 1923. The Federation had been founded in Paris in 1913. The Americans had never joined the organisation however and only attended as “observers”. They firmly stated at the meeting that they would never join until such time as Wimbledon gave up it’s title as the “World” Lawn Tennis Championship. It was of course impossible to seriously argue a case against them when the Americans were such a strong force in the game and were concurrently holders of all of the championships. It was agreed that Wimbledon would henceforward be known as “The Championship”. In the ensuing unrest the World Clay Court Championships in Paris were cancelled without being replaced.

No tennis tournament was to carry the title of “World” again. The Americans were happy since an American Champion on grass was now on an equal footing with a British Champion, also on grass. The clay court championships were simply forgotten. The last Olympic Tennis Championships for many years were played out in 1924 (tennis did actually finally return to the Olympic Games many years later in Seoul in 1988 ).

These changes laid the foundations for the Grand Slam, which was in fact what the Americans were really after.

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http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/Mousquet/E-mous-02.html

1924 was to be the last year that the French Championship was restricted to players that were registered with clubs in France. It was in fact the closure of another competing tournament, known as the “World” Clay Court Championships in Saint-Cloud in 1923, that had started the debate to internationalise the event. This tournament, held in the park at Saint-Cloud, had become somewhat fashionable to the Parisians who took pleasure in turning out to see the top overseas players each June. The debate was quickly decided and the French Championship opened to all comers for the first time in 1925.

The last truly French Championship of 1924 was held on the courts of Racing at the "Croix Catelan", in the Bois de Boulogne....

The first “International” French Championship of 1925 was held at the same site as the defunct World Clay Court Championships in the French Stadium in Saint-Cloud Park.....

In 1926 the Championship moved back to the courts at Racing and saw the return of the Americans in the form of Richards and Kinsey.....

1927 is the return of the great Bill Tilden. Bill had only been to Paris once before, in 1921. He had come back this year in an act of defiance to meet the French on their own turf following their victory over the Americans at Forest Hills in 1926. The tournament had again rotated back to the magnificent French Stadium in Saint-Cloud Park. Tilden crushed Cochet in straight sets in the semi-final to find himself up against Réne Lacoste in the final. The stadium’s capacity of 5000 spectators was stretched to the limit for what was to be a legendary match. Both players were in spectacular form and played every ball to the line. Some exchanges went as far as 50 returns as they fought tooth and nail to the bitter end.

After four hours and in the fifth set, Tilden lead 9/8 and 40/15. On the first of these two match points Lacoste made a clear cut winning return. The second serve however looked to be an ace by Tilden who turned to the crowd in victory only to hear the touch judge cry “fault”! The ball had brushed the line with many spectators believing it to be good. There was no incident of course, even though the touch judge who had cried out was a certain Henri Cochet. Nobody and in particular Tilden himself could possibly believe that Henri would consciously seek to take advantage for his comrade Lacoste. Whilst he showed no emotion, it did effect Bill’s concentration and he succumbed two games later on a double fault, a tragic ending for such a great server of the ball. The intensity of this great game of tennis is still revisited some 50 years later. Lacoste himself was also affected by the game. He went on to lose in the semi-final at Wimbledon against Borotra two months later, a shadow of his normal self.

Everybody was already talking about next year and a return to the courts at Racing. The Davis Cup was not far away however and the French felt they had a reasonable chance of success this year. Thoughts were therefore starting to turn towards a more prestigious venue should such a success be forthcoming.

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Edit: good links at http://bmarcore.perso.neuf.fr/tennis/menu-tennis.html

krosero said:

Found an interesting website with several pages on this topic.

http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/avant14/E-france-1.html



http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/avant14/E-champ.html



http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/apres14/E-apres02.html



http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/Mousquet/E-mous-02.html

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Yes, I'm aware of that website, which points towards the Racing Club de France as being the original venue for the French Championships, the precursor of what we know today as the French Open. Unfortunately, no surface is mentioned. This is annoying because there were grass courts at the Racing Club de France at some stage in the 1880s...

I've emailed the author of that site, and he's said I could publish his answer:

here is an intersting question. And here is a partial answer :

The first time the french championship took place in only one place for all competitions during a complete week was in 1908. The place was the Racing Club de France (courts on clay). More than 200 participants, the first day was the 8th of june 1908. Max Decugis won single, double and mixted.
Big success, with for the first time a real organisation, places where the public could sit, printed program etc...
So for the first time, a lot of money too for the Racing Club. The men participant where mainly from Paris, except 2 from Bordeaux. One of these two reached the men semi-final (M. Lawton). So the Bordeaux Club (Villa Primerose) claimed a part of the money ! Following some negociations, - we are between gentlemen), it was decided to organise the next edition in Bordeaux.
So the 1909 edition took place at the Villa Primerose, but only around the WE of "Pentecôte". Great organisation, but of course weak participation.
All the further éditions took place in Racing from 1910.

Before, the "French Championship" was more a kind of familly tournament, with mainly people from Paris. In 1907, 14 men participated, and only 3 women (final with a WO!)
What I know before is the following

- 1902 : 8 participants for the men, only from Paris. Played on two consécutive sunday : 15 and 22 of june.
- 1903 : Men championship, played on the Tennis Club de Paris. Championship only played during one day ! (14 june 1903)
- 1906 : Men championship, played on the Tennis Club de Paris. (and possibly 1907 too)

Before 1908, the other competitions (women, double and mixted) were organised on different dates, and had nothing to do with "a French championship" as we could understand the expession today. Depending of the weather and the paticipant, it could take place were people décided the week before. It is confirmed that some of them were held in the Ile de Puteaux (double mixted for example), on a court on withe clay.

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Nice quoting, Krosero. Its fine, that the author of the webside answers. Its the outstanding internet webside on tennis, especially the pictures.

A few clarifications from the author.

The Racing is located in the bois de Boulogne, between Paris and the Seine, west side of Paris.... The TCP [Tennis Club de Paris] is located inside Paris, west side, near what is knw "Roland-Garros". It has been the first club with a complete installation in-door and out-door tennis.


Is is very likely that the very firtst courts at the Racing where in grass. I heared abouit it a long long time ago. Now, in 1891, I am not sure at all. There is no indication about it, but it is possible. It is confirmed that none of the observers of that time found the information about the nature of the court... interesting !


[White clay] is an expression used by M. Coco Gentien, who wrote the only book I know with direct "souvenirs" of these early years of french tennis. "The colour of the court was white ("blindly white"), and the lines where in white "tissu" , nailed on the ground...", talking about the "Ile of Puteaux" tennis court. We can call it clay without red earth... ("Souvenirs d'un joueur de tennis, 1953".). That's all I know. May be in line with what is said by M. Gillmeister...

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Just awesome work krosero.

Thanks to your findings we actually have, at least, a fairly clear assessment of how this regional tourney evolved.

Myers described the first (regional) French Championships also a bit cryptically. It seems the Racing Club was the venue on most occasions -- but Myers, who I've not detected to make any kind of real error whatsoever in his texts ever (like AndrewTas here), said that the first regional event was at Puteaux, contained a draw with four players -- and was played out on a single day.

One example -- Myers writes once that Wilding bageled H. L. and H. L, returned the favor in the same match -- 'a la Borg vs Connors in Wimby SF 1981.

We hadn't that in our records at the time and I had a question-mark around this statement. It turned out Myers was right of course -- so I am hesitant to dismiss the, by far, greatest authority of this era, who traveled everywhere and knew practically everyone with an incredible memory to boot.

Of course the first tourney could still have been played a the Racing.

And while this regional little tourney without allowing players to enter outside of French clubs was, at least technically, the fore-runner to today's RG -- the true precursor to RG as overwhelming evidence proves, the leading red clay championship with a deep, strong draw containing the creme de la creme of the international tennis elite and being established as being held on a certain date every year was the Homburg-events in August, the Riviera-events with The South of France Championships at Nice as greatest of them taking very aspect into consideration and the WHCC.

newmark401 said:

Thanks. This is now my tentative chrononlogy for the French National Championships (this has nothing to do with the World Hard Court Championships, whose years and surface are crystal clear):

1891-1908 Ile de Puteaux, Paris (clay or asphalt)
1909 Société athlétique de la Villa Primrose, Bordeaux (probably clay)
1910-1914 Racing Club de France, Paris (clay)
1920-1924 Racing Club de France, Paris (clay)

I'm not fully happy with this chronology, but it will do for the moment.

Click to expand...

Very few time for this thread.
Just a precision :
L'Île-de-Puteaux is an island (île = island in French) surrounded by the river "La Seine". It is located in the department called Les Hauts-de-Seine. It is shared between the municipalities of Puteaux (5/6e of the area, south-west) and Neuilly (1:6 north-east)
Look at
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Île_de_Puteaux
and
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ile+d...TqAg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1.

To the east of the island you can see the street "L'Allée du Bord de l'Eau" which is in Paris.
"Le Bois de Boulogne" is entirely in the commune of Paris and not in the commune of Boulogne-Billancourt.
"Boulevard d'Auteuil" which lines Roland Garros to the south, is one of the street which separates Paris from Boulogne-Billancourt.

Summary :
Boulogne-Billancourt and Puteaux touch Paris
L'Île-de-Puteaux (with an ^ on the I) is in Puteaux
Le Bois de Boulogne is in Paris and NOT in Boulogne-Billancourt
Roland Garros is in Paris (at some meters from Boulogne-Billancourt)

This new chronology is less tentative. The Closed French Championships were only open to French nationals and players licensed with French clubs. They were first held in 1891 and won by the elusive Briton Mr H. Briggs; there was no women's singles event until 1897. During the first eighteen years of the tournament's existence it was held alternately on the Île de Puteaux, an island on the Seine to the west of Paris, and at the Racing Club de France in the Bois de Boulogne, also in Paris.

After a one-off visit to Bordeaux in 1909 (there was strong competition between the Bordeaux clubs, which had excellent players, and those in Paris), the FCC returned to the Racing Club de France in Paris and stayed there until they were discontinued in 1924. The tournament was not held during the First World War.

I don't know the first name of P. Girod, winner in 1901, nor of the Comtesse de Kermel, winner in 1907. Adine Masson had the first name Françoise, but seems to have been popularly known as Adine.

According to Heiner Gillmeister in "Tennis - A Cultural History", the first courts at the Île de Puteaux were sand laid out on a bed of rubble; they more than likely had clay courts there too at a later stage.
----------------

Original venues and surfaces of Closed French Championships

Year Venue Surface Winner

1891 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand

1892 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay

1893 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand

1894 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay

1895 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand

1896 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay

1897 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand Adine Masson

1898 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Adine Masson

1899 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand Adine Masson

1900 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Hélène Prévost

1901 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand P. Girod

1902 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Adine Masson

1903 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand Adine Masson

1904 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Kate Gillou

1905 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand Kate Gillou

1906 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Kate G. Fenwick

1907 Île de Puteaux, Paris Sand Comt. de Kermel

1908 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Kate G. Fenwick

1909 Société Athlétique de la Villa
Primrose, Bordeaux Clay Jeanne Mathey

1910 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Jeanne Mathey

1911 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Jeanne Mathey

1912 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Jeanne Mathey

1913 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Marguerite Broquedis

1914 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Marguerite Broquedis

1920 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Suzanne Lenglen

1921 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Suzanne Lenglen

1922 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Suzanne Lenglen

1923 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Suzanne Lenglen

1924 Racing Club de France, Paris Clay Diddie Vlasto
------------

When the "Internationaux de France de Tennis" (now the French Open) tournament came into existence in 1925, the venue was the Stade Français in Saint Cloud on the outskirts of Paris. Suzanne Lenglen won the women's singles title that year.

In 1926, the venue was the Racing Club de France in Paris. Suzanne Lenglen won her last major singles title at this event. In 1927, the tournament was held for the last time at the Stade Français in Saint Cloud. Kornelia "Kea" Bouman of the Netherlands won the women's singles title.

The Stade Roland-Garros was inaugurated in 1928 and the tournament has been held there ever since. Helen Wills was the first winner of the women's singles title at this new venue.

newmark401 said:

... Île de Puteaux, an island on the Seine to the west of Paris, and at the Racing Club de France in the Bois de Boulogne, also in Paris ...

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Just a very little detail : when I read "also in Paris" I guess you mean that "Île de Puteaux" is in Paris too. But as I stated in my previous post, "Île de Puteaux" is a part of Puteaux, a commune just outside Paris, while "the Bois de Boulogne" is a wooded area inside Paris itself.

Otherwise thank you for your post.

PS : the 1927 edition of the French was also held at Saint-Cloud as in 1925

Just a lighter side note on Krosero's findings. If they played at Racing Club on white clay or white powder, i wonder, what colour the lines had and what material they used. Obviously no chalk lines. And with white balls, and white clothes? Imagine for a moment. That would be a picture of Magritte.

^^^^^^^^^ !

Paris tennis



With a little help from the author of the French tennis website, and using Gillmeister's book, I put together this image of all the tennis courts and stadiums we've been talking about.

I was particularly interested because I spent a week in Paris twelve years ago and I have very fond memories of the city. Now that I look at the map, I realize that I even walked one day down the full length of the avenue that crosses the Bois de Boulogne, passing all these places without knowing it (I wasn't thinking much about tennis then). Île-de-Puteaux was close on my left, the Racing Club courts on my right, and Roland Garros also on the edge of the park.

On Google Earth, in the spot I marked, there are tennis courts called the Tennis Club de Paris (and they're just inside the western boundary of Paris). Now whether those are the exact courts that were used a century ago for the FC, well I can't say 100% (there are other courts nearby, belonging today to another club, per Google Earth anyway).

With the other sites it was easier: for example, there are courts today in the "Faisanderie" in St. Cloud park, and Gillmeister says that the original stadium is still there.

Krosero this is really great!
Can I please use your info and the map on my site?

Thnxs already

Alex

^^^^ Sure.

Yeah krosero -- wonderful air-photo.

But you in the USA have the Newport Casino, R I, grass-courts and the HOF there. That is hallowed tennis ground. Every giant but the Renshaws, maybe, have played there. Fantastic.

I'd love to play there some day. Bone-chilling vibe to know that R. F. and H. L. and Tilden and every other giant all through the last 120 years of tennis history have gazed up at that lovely structure and played great tennis there...

^^^^Have to visit that place too. Ah, tennis is such a large world.

krosero said:

^^^^Have to visit that place too. Ah, tennis is such a large world.

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Interesting map of the tennis venues. Of course, they all are located within the great conurbation that is Paris.

Mark

newmark401 said:

Of course, they all are located within the great conurbation that is Paris.

Mark

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In the larger Paris area I guess that's true, though as you wrote before, the Île de Puteaux is west of Paris itself (Carlo said the same thing; I'm not sure where he disagreed with you). And St. Cloud is also outside the official city.

Roland Garros and the Tennis Club de Paris are inside the city, though barely inside its western boundary. They almost fall inside Boulogne-Billancourt.

Carlo Giovanni Colussi said:

"Boulevard d'Auteuil" which lines Roland Garros to the south, is one of the street which separates Paris from Boulogne-Billancourt.

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This is exactly what I see on Google Earth when I put in the borders, but one thing I'm not clear about is this word "Auteuil". In the 1920s some New York Times articles report on Roland Garros matches from a place called "Auteuil". And some of them don't even specify Roland Garros, they just say the place is Auteuil. It leaves the impression that Auteuil is (or was) another commune, or suburb of Paris.

But today I don't see Auteuil anywhere on the maps of Paris. In fact, type in "Auteuil" in Google Earth and you get taken to a place many miles to the west of the city. Confusing.

krosero said:

Found an interesting website with several pages on this topic.

http://bmarcore.club.fr/tennis/avant14/E-france-1.html

The tournament was opened in 1891 under the sponsorship of the Federation of French Associations for Athletic Sports (l’Union des Sociétés Française des Sports Athlétiques). It was held at the Racing Club de France in Paris and was from the outset given the prestigious title of “The French Championship”.

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If I'm not mistaken, Roland Garros. Le Livre du Tournoi du Centenaire, by Gilles Delamarre (Paris: du May/FFdT, 1991 ) indeed confirms that the first edition of the championships was held at the Racing Club.

Unfortunately my French is really very poor! So I need help in translating accurately:

"Des courts qui se multiplient, des clubs qui grandissent conduisent naturellement au lancement d'un Championnat de France. C'est, sans doute, un titre un rien pompeux pour une réunion encore bien mondaine, qui attire seulement les initiés. Pour cette première édition, en 1891, le Racing Club de France prête ses installations de la Croix-Catelan à l'Union des Sociétés Françaises des Sports Athlétiques, qui régente alors le sport encore embryonnaire."

The text mentions a report by Richard Dougerthy in the Bulletin of l'USFSA (l'Union des Sociétés Française des Sports Athlétiques).

"La presse, il faut bien le dire, n'accorde aucune attention à l'événement. Seul, le Bulletin de l'USFSA en donne un compte rendu qui n'hésite à critiquer ni les organisateurs ni les acteurs : « C'est devant un public peu nombreux, mais choisi et fin connaisseur, que le Championnat individuel de tennis a eu lieu. Le Racing Club de France avait mis à la disposition de l'Union son terrain. Constatons que l'organisation de cette réunion était quelque peu défectueuse. Quoi qu'il en soit, nous avons assisté à des parties si remarquables que l'intérêt du sport a eu le pas sur tous les petits côtés défectueux de la réunion, organisation et mauvais temps. »"

krosero said:

I've emailed the author of that site, and he's said I could publish his answer:

The first time the french championship took place in only one place for all competitions during a complete week was in 1908. The place was the Racing Club de France (courts on clay). More than 200 participants, the first day was the 8th of june 1908. Max Decugis won single, double and mixted.
Big success, with for the first time a real organisation, places where the public could sit, printed program etc...
So for the first time, a lot of money too for the Racing Club. The men participant where mainly from Paris, except 2 from Bordeaux. One of these two reached the men semi-final (M. Lawton). So the Bordeaux Club (Villa Primerose) claimed a part of the money ! Following some negociations, - we are between gentlemen), it was decided to organise the next edition in Bordeaux.
So the 1909 edition took place at the Villa Primerose, but only around the WE of "Pentecôte". Great organisation, but of course weak participation.
All the further éditions took place in Racing from 1910.

Before, the "French Championship" was more a kind of familly tournament, with mainly people from Paris. In 1907, 14 men participated, and only 3 women (final with a WO!)
What I know before is the following

- 1902 : 8 participants for the men, only from Paris. Played on two consécutive sunday : 15 and 22 of june.
- 1903 : Men championship, played on the Tennis Club de Paris. Championship only played during one day ! (14 june 1903)
- 1906 : Men championship, played on the Tennis Club de Paris. (and possibly 1907 too)

Before 1908, the other competitions (women, double and mixted) were organised on different dates, and had nothing to do with "a French championship" as we could understand the expession today. Depending of the weather and the paticipant, it could take place were people décided the week before. It is confirmed that some of them were held in the Ile de Puteaux (double mixted for example), on a court on withe clay.

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The centenary by Gilles Delamarre also appears to confirm the 1903 and 1906 editions taking place on the courts of the Tennis Club de Paris. Which seems plausible because this club also had outdoor courts in addition to it's covered courts (where the French covered court championships were held since 1895):

"Plus libres de leurs mouvements, les joueurs commencent à faire parler d'eux. Mais, à l'aube du XXe siècle, les Championnats de France, qui ne sont toujours pas ouverts aux étrangers, demeurent une fête de famille réunissant les joueurs de première série. Ils ne sont, le plus souvent, pas plus de huit, presque toujours parisiens. Ainsi, en 1902, un deuil familial empêche MM. Lawton et de Luze, les Bordelais de la Société Athlétique de la Villa Primrose, d'affirmer la présence de la province, et Marcel Vacherot, sortant vainqueur d'un tournoi joué sur deux dimanches — les 15 et 22 juin —, succède à son frère André. Le finaliste est un grand jeune homme de vingt ans, armé d'un service et d'un smash qui étonnent pour l'époque, Max Decugis."

"Il prend le pouvoir, sans coup férir, dès l'année suivante, après avoir, comme les autres, acquitté son engagement de 5 francs pour prendre part aux Championnats, disputés sur les courts du Tennis Club de Paris dans la seule journée du 14 juin 1903."

"Max Decugis, qui emmène pour la première fois une équipe française en Coupe Davis, en 1904, est l'artisan de la prise de conscience. Cheveux gominés, les yeux presque noirs, il a une prestance et un engagement qui dissuadent de parler plus longtemps de simple passe-temps à propos de son sport. Même lorsqu'il n'est pas vainqueur, c'est lui qui attire l'attention et le public. C'est le cas aux Championnats de France 1906, toujours disputés sur les courts du Tennis Club de Paris, où il s'incline face à Maurice Germot, né, comme lui, en 1882."

"En 1908, les Championnats de France prennent enfin le visage d'une grande semaine de tennis. Toutes les épreuves se disputent en même temps sur les courts du Racing Club de France, les simples et doubles des joueurs et joueuses de première série, mais aussi de deuxième série et, en plus, les handicaps, encore de règle. Le nombre des engagements fait un bond en avant jusqu'à deux cents et, dès le lundi 8 juin, plus de cent parties se disputent."

I can't make out whether a location is specified for the 1902 event.


La Paume et le Lawn-tennis, by Edmond de Nanteuil, G. de Saint-Clair, and Charles Delahaye (Paris: Librairie Hachette 1898 ), which Gillmeister used as a source, labels these first championships as 'interclub' championships (wich seems very accurate), held either at Puteaux or the Racing Club venue (does it actually say anything resembling "alternating between"?).

Pages 212 &c:
http://www.archive.org/stream/lapaumeetlelawn00delagoog#page/n200/mode/1up

No specific locations are given for any specific year:
http://www.archive.org/stream/lapaumeetlelawn00delagoog#page/n375/mode/1up


All information indicates that there were at various different championships held in and nearby Paris. So a all in all, it's not at easy to form a clear picture of the men's singles event.


From the 1899 L'Almanach des sports, which one can find on the website of the Bibliothèque Nationale de France, on the 1898 edition:
"12 Juillet. - Championnat single interclubs au Tennis-Club de Paris. M. P. Aymé a battu M. Lebreton 5-7, 6-1, 6-2."
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5550653s.image.f500.langFR

And from the 1901 edition, on the 1900 event:
"Le dimanche suivant Championnat simple au T. C. P. que M. Aymé, du T. G. P., a gagné facilement par 6-3 et 6-0 sur M. Prévost, delà S. S. L P."
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k55485987.image.f255

This edition especially seems to contain a great deal of information, and I would love to hear what a French speaker (or reader) makes of it!
(By the way, there is a nice collection of tennis images in this database, simply type 'tennis' in the search-box and press enter).

urban said:

Just a lighter side note on Krosero's findings. If they played at Racing Club on white clay or white powder, i wonder, what colour the lines had and what material they used. Obviously no chalk lines. And with white balls, and white clothes? Imagine for a moment. That would be a picture of Magritte.

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There is a very pretty picture in Gilles Delamarre's Roland Garros centenary, taken in 1900. The court surface has a silvery ashen greyish tone. Naturally there is a lady in the frame dressed in a white frock, with other white accents: a male player at the back of the court, the umpire's hat . . . though not a single line!
But it is not a full view of the court and perhaps the angle from which the picture is taken is too low.