@ all sandbaggers

I need to vent. Just played a "4.0" doubles league match and the other team fielded what I would consider a 5.0 player on their top court. I can hang with any 4.0 and many 4.5 players, and this guy was better than any 4.5 I've hit with. Now, granted top court usually plays more like 4.5 and I'm ready for that, but this was laughably ridiculous. Afterwards I find out this kid played college tennis and graduated from college around 2007. Seriously if you played college tennis, even D3, what could you possibly get from destroying 4.0s with an avg age of 45? I guess I could go play 3.5 and bagel everyone and then stroke off at night to a poster of me and tell myself how awesome I am but seriously wtf do sandbagging dbags get out of pulling this garbage. Argh.

*rant off*

So, how y'all doin, sorry for all this. meh

That is really the golden question isn't it...what exactly do sandbaggers get from playing so beneath their level? Is it ego? Are they just having 'fun'? Were they asked to play by friends and wanted to hang out with them? Did they just want to play and made an honest mistake in self-rating?

*shrug* Of course, I have no answers to these questions!

A common reason would be that they're unable to find ppl to hit with.

Yeah, Id like to know this too. I hate sandbaggers.

JT_2eighty said:

I need to vent. Just played a "4.0" doubles league match and the other team fielded what I would consider a 5.0 player on their top court. I can hang with any 4.0 and many 4.5 players, and this guy was better than any 4.5 I've hit with. Now, granted top court usually plays more like 4.5 and I'm ready for that, but this was laughably ridiculous. Afterwards I find out this kid played college tennis and graduated from college around 2007. Seriously if you played college tennis, even D3, what could you possibly get from destroying 4.0s with an avg age of 45? I guess I could go play 3.5 and bagel everyone and then stroke off at night to a poster of me and tell myself how awesome I am but seriously wtf do sandbagging dbags get out of pulling this garbage. Argh.

*rant off*

So, how y'all doin, sorry for all this. meh

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Per your theory, 3.5 league will have bunch of 4.0 players and couple fo 4.5 players. So it is impossible for you to bagel everyone in 3.5. Also I think you would lose to some of 3.5 players.

I lost to an 2.5 player couple of month ago. And I beat bunch of 4.0 players recently. Can you tell me which league I should play?

Vermillion said:

A common reason would be that they're unable to find ppl to hit with.

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I think this is true for 5.0 and above...there are no leagues so they 'sandbag' to 4.5.

But it doesn't explain sandbagging at the other levels.

robert said:

I lost to an 2.5 player couple of month ago. And I beat bunch of 4.0 players recently. Can you tell me which league I should play?

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3.5 all the way.

I hate sandbaggers. USTA is to blame. Each night matches they collected a few hundred dollars and no official around at all. How much it cost to pay one official on the night of matches?

In the city (NYC) the match cost $25 -$35 pp. And play time is limited too. Like a hour and half or two hours for each match. Many who has won the first set and into second score are pretty close like 3 games a piece. The player who won the first set would kill time and win the match without having to finish it. Because the court time is up.

If the tournament coordinator is doing their job, then sandbaggers would dare to show up or to help speed up the game instead of delay and kill time.

^^^Uhh, in my area, it is completely unrealistic to have officials (even one) at each match...we have multiple matches at many locations almost every night.

Topaz said:

^^^Uhh, in my area, it is completely unrealistic to have officials (even one) at each match...we have multiple matches at many locations almost every night.

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Topaz,
I did not meant to have an official on each match. I wish one official each tourney night. At least 5 matches about 2 hours. Then any bad call disputes, sandbagging or bad conducts would not happened that much. And proper rated player wouldn't get cheated. Especially newly bumped up 4.0 can call themselves 4.0

Topaz said:

^^^Uhh, in my area, it is completely unrealistic to have officials (even one) at each match...we have multiple matches at many locations almost every night.

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That's the case in most areas.

They have rules already anyway, and they tweak them every year.

Unless the OP's ringer played D3 tennis and isnt ranked at that, they should just file a fair play grievance. If they are not willing to do that, then they shouldn't complain.

This year the league took that out of the hands of the local coordinators so they are easier to file. Although they still have to be based on actual player history, and not this sort of stuff: "I can hang with any 4.0 and many 4.5 players, and this guy was better than any 4.5 I've hit with."

I saw some rule changes for next year though that are interesting. If what I read is correct (look it up, I found it on the usta.com website somewhere), they are going to lower the minimum age to 18 from 19.

Which means I'll be willing to bet you'll find some junior and top ranked high school players even in 3.5 that are not even seniors yet. (because remember in USTA you will only have to turn 18 that year, so technically you could be 17 and still play, just like this year you can play at 18 )

This year we had a couple that had just graduated but had made it to their state HS tournament, but without knowing if they've been offered a spot on a tennis team we couldn't complain. Wait until they have a full year of HS left to go!

penang said:

Topaz,
I did not meant to have an official on each match. I wish one official each tourney night. At least 5 matches about 2 hours. Then any bad call disputes, sandbagging or bad conducts would not happened that much. And proper rated player wouldn't get cheated. Especially newly bumped up 4.0 can call themselves 4.0

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Oh, ok, sorry, my bad. I didn't realize you meant just tournaments.

Though, the sandbagging is a problem in both leagues and tournaments (there is actually a lot more league play here than tournament, so that's why I look at it from a league perspective)...and I think sandbagging and bad conduct are really two separate issues.

penang said:

Topaz,
I did not meant to have an official on each match. I wish one official each tourney night. At least 5 matches about 2 hours. Then any bad call disputes, sandbagging or bad conducts would not happened that much. And proper rated player wouldn't get cheated. Especially newly bumped up 4.0 can call themselves 4.0

Click to expand...

The reason why not all tournaments are run by an official is because most tournaments are run by a independent entity. (either a club or a person who runs tournaments)

This entity actually makes SOME money on these tournaments and if they want an official they actually have to pay them. (once you become an USTA official tourney's can hire you for stuff like this)

If it's a huge tournament with tons of players they can probably usually afford it, but sometimes the draws are kind of small and it wont be worth it.

And even with an official it's impossible to expect them to be the NTRP rating police. Maybe they just need to make sure to include tournaments into the self rating system (so you cant just walk off the street and play one), and have it count toward your rating everywhere. (where I live, tourneys are not part of your rating)

Any time you have handicapped sports leagues, you will find people that do all they can to keep their level low so they can win. The organizations running the league can try to police it (and USTA seems to do a lousy job of enforcing their rules), but nothing can stop people that are hell bent on cheating to win.

Question: Exactly what would an official do if he noticed sandbagging? I thought it was pretty common in tournaments.
I'm not familiar with this. Stop the match? :?

Annika said:

Question: Exactly what would an official do if he noticed sandbagging? I thought it was pretty common in tournaments.
I'm not familiar with this. Stop the match? :?

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Good question.

My take is this...it is up to the grievance process (which is up to captains and their players) to 'rid' the sandbagger's out of the system. Unless there is evidence (prior playing record, college experience, etc) I don't see the grievance worth the time to file.

Officials at tournaments (and actually, now that I think of it, there have always been roving officials at the USTA tournaments I've participated in) are there to monitor the matches, actually, and player conduct, more than they are there to 'catch' sandbaggers.

You know, all of this talk of sandbagging is giving league play a bad name.

I've played league since 2005 and I have never once had an opponent I believed was clearly out of level. Not even in mixed. I've had my head handed to me plenty of times. But every time, I thought it was a fair match.

Maybe it's a guy thing . . . ?

I never really saw much sandbagging until my last mixed season, and I saw it from both genders.

Also saw one (IMO) in DC league this year...also a woman.

Also know of one other (also a woman) from a previous year in mixed at a higher level. Had played the circuit and self-rated at 4.5...she got DQ'd and bumped to 5.0.

Question: What is the Origin of the Term "Sandbagger"?

Answer: A sandbagger is a nasty species of tennis vermin who lies about his true playing abilities - making himself seem worse than he is - in order to gain advantage in tournaments or bets.

We all know what a sand bag is, but how did bags of sand enter the tennis lexicon?

First, the word doesn't derive from the type of sand bags we're all familiar with. It's not the defensive sand bags - those used for flood control, lining foxholes, and so on - but the offensive sand bags that give us the word "sandbagger."

Gangs and street toughs of the 19th century used sand bags as a weapon of choice. Take a sock or small bag, fill it with sand, wrap it tightly, and wail away on someone (well, don't actually wail away on someone, but imagine that you are) and you'll see how effective a weapon a small sand bag can be.

Gang members used such weapons to intimidate their foes or average citizens. To threaten and bully the populace.

This definition of sandbagger - a person who uses a sand bag as a weapon - can still be found in many dictionaries; it's the first definition for the word in most older dictionaries.

But the word didn't go directly from its gangland origins into tennis; there was an intermediary step in its adoption by the sports world, and tennis, to mean someone who misrepresents his ability to gain an advantage.

According to the website Word-Detective.com, that intermediary step was poker.

Say you're in a poker match and you're dealt a fantastic hand. If you place a huge bet right off the bat, you might scare most of your poker mates into folding. Instead, you might choose to bet small amounts, hoping to keep your opponents in the match, increasing the pot, up until the moment you show your cards.

As Word-Detective.com puts it, the poker meaning "... described a player who held off raising the stakes in order to lull the other players into a false sense of security. The poker sandbagger would pounce late in the game, clobbering the other players with his good hand."

The poker player, in other words, misled his opponents about how good his hand was ... until it was time to whip out the "sand bag" and beat those same opponents with it.

And that's how "sandbagger" came to have its tennis meaning.

JT_2eighty said:

I need to vent. Just played a "4.0" doubles league match and the other team fielded what I would consider a 5.0 player on their top court. I can hang with any 4.0 and many 4.5 players, and this guy was better than any 4.5 I've hit with.

Click to expand...

If you can hang with all 4.0's and many 4.5 players, shouldn't you be playing 4.5 doubles? Wouldn't you be a sandbagger too at the 4.0 level?

robert said:

Per your theory, 3.5 league will have bunch of 4.0 players and couple fo 4.5 players. So it is impossible for you to bagel everyone in 3.5. Also I think you would lose to some of 3.5 players.

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If you can bagel all 3.5 players, you should be at least a 5.0. A 4.0 would never bagel a 3.5 player.

I have played some people that were a lot closer to 5s than 4s in doubles in a 4.0 league and I love it.
I don't care if we loose bad, it feels good to hold serve with good players and have a chance to compete against some old d1 college players even if you loose 2 and 2, 1 an 2 or 2 and 3 etc.


How often do you get the chance to play with guys that could spank the 4.5s who are the big fish around your 4.0 pound.
I am competitive but I am finding I want to play people who better than me, people who normally may not even hit with me.

Embrace the opportunity, you might get in a zone and win a few games.

I am not saying loosing is ever great but the journey and the fire inside you to push yourself can be exciting and what it's all about. McEnroe said he carefully picks people to play that he feels he can beat because loosing puts him in a bad mood.
My ego has taken enough hits loosing to people at my own level so loosing to people like that is nothing to be ashamed of and life really is about the journey.
Why play it safe?

JHBKLYN said:

If you can bagel all 3.5 players, you should be at least a 5.0. A 4.0 would never bagel a 3.5 player.

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Sometimes people get down is a set and write it off to be able to compete in the second set. I have seen people loose or tank a set and win matches, especially in the heat.

r2473 said:

Question: What is the Origin of the Term "Sandbagger"?

Answer: A sandbagger is a nasty species of tennis vermin who lies about his true playing abilities - making himself seem worse than he is - in order to gain advantage in tournaments or bets.

We all know what a sand bag is, but how did bags of sand enter the tennis lexicon?

First, the word doesn't derive from the type of sand bags we're all familiar with. It's not the defensive sand bags - those used for flood control, lining foxholes, and so on - but the offensive sand bags that give us the word "sandbagger."

Gangs and street toughs of the 19th century used sand bags as a weapon of choice. Take a sock or small bag, fill it with sand, wrap it tightly, and wail away on someone (well, don't actually wail away on someone, but imagine that you are) and you'll see how effective a weapon a small sand bag can be.

Gang members used such weapons to intimidate their foes or average citizens. To threaten and bully the populace.

This definition of sandbagger - a person who uses a sand bag as a weapon - can still be found in many dictionaries; it's the first definition for the word in most older dictionaries.

But the word didn't go directly from its gangland origins into tennis; there was an intermediary step in its adoption by the sports world, and tennis, to mean someone who misrepresents his ability to gain an advantage.

According to the website Word-Detective.com, that intermediary step was poker.

Say you're in a poker match and you're dealt a fantastic hand. If you place a huge bet right off the bat, you might scare most of your poker mates into folding. Instead, you might choose to bet small amounts, hoping to keep your opponents in the match, increasing the pot, up until the moment you show your cards.

As Word-Detective.com puts it, the poker meaning "... described a player who held off raising the stakes in order to lull the other players into a false sense of security. The poker sandbagger would pounce late in the game, clobbering the other players with his good hand."

The poker player, in other words, misled his opponents about how good his hand was ... until it was time to whip out the "sand bag" and beat those same opponents with it.

And that's how "sandbagger" came to have its tennis meaning.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I would have thought it would have come from the racing world where faster cars would be "sandbagged" so to equal the playing field. I guess that is not really what is going on here, but in any case, nice find!

I haven't gotten around to playing tennis leagues yet so that brand of individual sandbagger is one I haven't met but I've played 25 years of softball and 13 years of rec football and I've seen plenty of teams playing way down low to bring home the hardware. The first year I played football one team had played A league the year before and done poorly so when they had the qualifer game in preseason the gave it away. At one point quarterback called an interception in the huddle and then ended up having to block for the opposing team when one of his players got excited and was about to make the tackle. They went undefeated in D league and got the pretty plastic trophy. Heck at work I played on a departmental team in softball where you were allowed to have your SO play and when it came time for the championship game our opponant showed up with the boy friend of the week proudly wearing his local AA baseball jacket at shortstop.

Topaz said:

That is really the golden question isn't it...what exactly do sandbaggers get from playing so beneath their level? Is it ego? Are they just having 'fun'? Were they asked to play by friends and wanted to hang out with them? Did they just want to play and made an honest mistake in self-rating?

*shrug* Of course, I have no answers to these questions!

Click to expand...

I'm a sandbagger and I admit it. I am rated 2.5 but played up at 3.0 this Spring (went 6-0) and am playing up at 3.5 this Fall (2-0 so far). In my case the reason I'm still at 2.5 is that I was asked by friends last year to rate that way and play on their team (they were true 2.5s). Then I got injured and didn't play any matches in Spring. I played 5.5 combos and went to States (at the beach here in SC, which was an awesome experience). I played up at 3.0 last Fall and went 1-2 (losing the 2 matches to guys that got bumped to 3.5). At the end of the year my entire team got bumped except for me...because I hadn't played any qualifying matches due to injury.

I told my teammates that it was ridiculous that I was still at 2.5 and was going to appeal up. They said to just play up instead and to try to get some other friends back into league tennis by putting together another 2.5 (and later 5.5) team and take them to States (and the beach) and get them hooked on playing. I did just that and am looking forward to States in 2 weeks. One of the 5.5 teams we'll be facing has at least 1 D3 college player (rated 3.0)!

So the reasons for my sandbagging are various: friends asked me; I got injured and stayed at this level as a fluke; I lost most of my matches at 3.0 last Fall so thought I wouldn't be as successful as I have been at 3.0 this year; I improved considerably over the course of a year (highly recommend The Inner Game of Tennis); I can always play up; I wanted to treat my friends to the States experience at the beach; most of the teams you face at States are also full of sandbaggers (as are many other teams in the local leagues); USTA allows players to play up at higher levels; etc.

Hope this sheds some light on the problem. I always admit I am not a true 2.5 when people question me on it. But so far no one has filed a grievance. If they ever did and/or if I get DQed by an official at States I will not contest it.

herrburgess said:

I'm a sandbagger and I admit it. I am rated 2.5 but played up at 3.0 this Spring (went 6-0) and am playing up at 3.5 this Fall (2-0 so far). In my case the reason I'm still at 2.5 is that I was asked by friends last year to rate that way and play on their team (they were true 2.5s). Then I got injured and didn't play any matches in Spring. I played 5.5 combos and went to States (at the beach here in SC, which was an awesome experience). I played up at 3.0 last Fall and went 1-2 (losing the 2 matches to guys that got bumped to 3.5). At the end of the year my entire team got bumped except for me...because I hadn't played any qualifying matches due to injury.

I told my teammates that it was ridiculous that I was still at 2.5 and was going to appeal up. They said to just play up instead and to try to get some other friends back into league tennis by putting together another 2.5 (and later 5.5) team and take them to States (and the beach) and get them hooked on playing. I did just that and am looking forward to States in 2 weeks. One of the 5.5 teams we'll be facing has at least 1 D3 college player (rated 3.0)!

So the reasons for my sandbagging are various: friends asked me; I got injured and stayed at this level as a fluke; I lost most of my matches at 3.0 last Fall so thought I wouldn't be as successful as I have been at 3.0 this year; I improved considerably over the course of a year (highly recommend The Inner Game of Tennis); I can always play up; I wanted to treat my friends to the States experience at the beach; most of the teams you face at States are also full of sandbaggers (as are many other teams in the local leagues); USTA allows players to play up at higher levels; etc.

Hope this sheds some light on the problem. I always admit I am not a true 2.5 when people question me on it. But so far no one has filed a grievance. If they ever did and/or if I get DQed by an official at States I will not contest it.

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If I am understanding you correctly, you self-rated at 2.5, and you are still self-rated at 2.5 because you didn't play enough matches.

IMHO, you are not a sandbagger, assuming you play all out in each of your matches and do not throw games.

If you play honestly and the computer doesn't DQ you with three strikes, then you are competitive at that level and have every right to play 2.5.

My gripe is with people who lie about their playing experience and people who deliberately throw games to keep scores close so they don't get DQ'd. Those things are cheating and sandbagging in my mind. I don't mind at all if someone has a legitimately-obtained computer rating and chooses to enjoy one year of stomping everyone at a lower level. I know if the computer hadn't moved me up to 3.5 when it did, I would have happily played 3.0 and collected all the towels and pens that I could.

^^ Uh oh, you're about to get flamed hard...put on your fireproof gloves and prepare for battle...

I went 12-2 in league and 8-0 in Flex.

Am I a sandbagger too?

JT_2eighty said:

I need to vent. Just played a "4.0" doubles league match and the other team fielded what I would consider a 5.0 player on their top court. I can hang with any 4.0 and many 4.5 players, and this guy was better than any 4.5 I've hit with. Now, granted top court usually plays more like 4.5 and I'm ready for that, but this was laughably ridiculous. Afterwards I find out this kid played college tennis and graduated from college around 2007. Seriously if you played college tennis, even D3, what could you possibly get from destroying 4.0s with an avg age of 45? I guess I could go play 3.5 and bagel everyone and then stroke off at night to a poster of me and tell myself how awesome I am but seriously wtf do sandbagging dbags get out of pulling this garbage. Argh.

*rant off*

So, how y'all doin, sorry for all this. meh

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This year in 3.5 adult season, we had a 22 year old former D3 player. He went 10-0, and only lost 2 sets, and lost these sets to a not very good senior singles player, and the other to a 3.0 singles player. When he was busy destroying our best singles player 6-0, 6-0, he was talking about being ranked in the top 50 in the state for doubles and singles. Someone asked him why he was playing 3.5 with that experience, and he simply stated that his facility did not have a 4.0 or 4.5 team, so he joined the 3.5 guys....

Someone eventually did complain to the LLC, and he was DQ'ed on all matches so the team which had won a lot of 3-2 decisions went all the way to the bottom of the standings. The question was asked of the Captain and the player of who signed the player up and obviously did not fill out the Tennis Link questions properly, and there was never a response. The player is now DQ'ed to 4.0, which I still think is a bit low after watching him play.

Topaz said:

That is really the golden question isn't it...what exactly do sandbaggers get from playing so beneath their level? Is it ego? Are they just having 'fun'? Were they asked to play by friends and wanted to hang out with them? Did they just want to play and made an honest mistake in self-rating?

*shrug* Of course, I have no answers to these questions!

Click to expand...

I think in most cases it is not the player, but the captain. Alot of players either don't know much about the ratings or just don't care and are willing to play for any captain who can hook them up with some matches. The captains are the ones who go out of their way to find above-level players. Most people I know would prefer to play better quality players even though they might be playing down in usta leagues.

You know, all of this talk of sandbagging is giving league play a bad name.

I've played league since 2005 and I have never once had an opponent I believed was clearly out of level. Not even in mixed. I've had my head handed to me plenty of times. But every time, I thought it was a fair match.

Maybe it's a guy thing . . . ?

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I haven't seen a player that I think is ridiculously out of level either, except one guy from my 3.0 team who happened to legitimately improve from beginner to 4.0 in about a year.

Alot of the complaints are absurd. When I played at 6.5 combo districts last year, one of my opponents and/or a USTA ref said that I was a 4.5! I was having a great day, but still a year later I'm nowhere near 4.5!

When you advance to the State, Sectionals and Nationals, you always find teams heavily chocked full of sandbagging player.

For most teams, winning is the goal. Therefore, if you wish to accomplish that goal, you must sandbag. There is no way to win Nationals "fair and square".

League should not be taken seriously. It's really just an opportunity to drink beer, meet and play with new people, and improve your game. Once you figure that out, you will love USTA league tennis!

The irony of it is that you frequently hear people at TT lamenting how difficult it is to get to practice with players who are better than they are. Yet the minute an opponent steps onto the court who is better than they are, they start dropping the S-bomb ("Sandbagger!!").

Well, which is it? Do you want the chance to play against stronger players or don't you?

herrburgess said:

I'm a sandbagger and I admit it. I am rated 2.5 but played up at 3.0 this Spring (went 6-0) and am playing up at 3.5 this Fall (2-0 so far). In my case the reason I'm still at 2.5 is that I was asked by friends last year to rate that way and play on their team (they were true 2.5s). Then I got injured and didn't play any matches in Spring. I played 5.5 combos and went to States (at the beach here in SC, which was an awesome experience). I played up at 3.0 last Fall and went 1-2 (losing the 2 matches to guys that got bumped to 3.5). At the end of the year my entire team got bumped except for me...because I hadn't played any qualifying matches due to injury.

I told my teammates that it was ridiculous that I was still at 2.5 and was going to appeal up. They said to just play up instead and to try to get some other friends back into league tennis by putting together another 2.5 (and later 5.5) team and take them to States (and the beach) and get them hooked on playing. I did just that and am looking forward to States in 2 weeks. One of the 5.5 teams we'll be facing has at least 1 D3 college player (rated 3.0)!

So the reasons for my sandbagging are various: friends asked me; I got injured and stayed at this level as a fluke; I lost most of my matches at 3.0 last Fall so thought I wouldn't be as successful as I have been at 3.0 this year; I improved considerably over the course of a year (highly recommend The Inner Game of Tennis); I can always play up; I wanted to treat my friends to the States experience at the beach; most of the teams you face at States are also full of sandbaggers (as are many other teams in the local leagues); USTA allows players to play up at higher levels; etc.

Hope this sheds some light on the problem. I always admit I am not a true 2.5 when people question me on it. But so far no one has filed a grievance. If they ever did and/or if I get DQed by an official at States I will not contest it.

Click to expand...

But, it sounds like you are playing where you know you are competitive. IMO, that is not sandbagging.

I would call it sandbagging if you played 2.5 (knowing full well that you've surpassed that level). To me, sounds like you're playing where you belong, and the computer will catch up to you eventually.

That's part of the problem, too, when players improve faster than can be reflected in the once-a-year ratings 'check'. Again, to me, you are only sandbagging if you use that 'lag' to beat up on people when you know full well you should be playing at a different level.

Droofin said:

When you advance to the State, Sectionals and Nationals, you always find teams heavily chocked full of sandbagging player.

For most teams, winning is the goal. Therefore, if you wish to accomplish that goal, you must sandbag. There is no way to win Nationals "fair and square".

League should not be taken seriously. It's really just an opportunity to drink beer, meet and play with new people, and improve your game. Once you figure that out, you will love USTA league tennis!

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In my opinion most players that win nationals, don't and could not do it playing fair and square and it's not anything to be proud of, in fact, I would not want anything to do with a team that is good enough to "win" the whole thing.

Topaz said:

But, it sounds like you are playing where you know you are competitive. IMO, that is not sandbagging.

I would call it sandbagging if you played 2.5 (knowing full well that you've surpassed that level). To me, sounds like you're playing where you belong, and the computer will catch up to you eventually.

That's part of the problem, too, when players improve faster than can be reflected in the once-a-year ratings 'check'. Again, to me, you are only sandbagging if you use that 'lag' to beat up on people when you know full well you should be playing at a different level.

Click to expand...

Yea, you could be right (but people still call me a sandbagger). In any case, my record is there for all to see. I never played any high school tennis nor was I ranked as a junior, but I did know that I was considerably better than an average 2.5 when I self-rated. I did ultimately lose to another "sandbagger" in the finals at States (my only loss at 2.5).

I actually learned the true meaning of sandbagging when my team faced a guy at 2.5 States this Spring. We had scouted the team and saw only that he had played 2 close matches at #2 doubles during the season. Then, when he got to States, he played #1 singles, and proceeded to clean up all the way through Sectionals (where he finally got DQed). It was only after reading on these boards that I understood that this is a familiar tactic: hide the ringer at #2 or #3 doubles during the season and have him/her throw some games, get 2 qualifying matches in, and break him/her out at States at #1 singles. That guy is now playing 8.5 combos with a former All-American college player!

I myself only played 1 match at 2.5 States so I could let my true 2.5s get more experience. Plus, our team agreed that we didn't really want to go to Sectionals in Mobile (in August, where the temps are in the 100s!)

^^^Actually, to me, it sounds like you have a great 'tennis' attitude! The computer will catch up, eventually! Until then, since you've found ways to play up, sounds like you're all set! I wonder, even, since you are playing and winning at 3.5, if you'll get the 'double' bump?

And yes, the example you cited is a *true* sandbagger!

film1 said:

In my opinion most players that win nationals don't and could not do it playing fair and square and it's not anything to be proud of, in fact, I would not want anything to do with a team that is good enough to "win" the whole thing.

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100% agree.

Now...win an open or age tourney, and you've got something to be proud of. NTRP is just for fun.

Everyone needs to stop taking NTRP seriously. I have to laugh when I see a guy screaming "come on!" in his opponents face during an NTRP match ;-)

Droofin said:

Everyone needs to stop taking NTRP seriously. I have to laugh when I see a guy screaming "come on!" in his opponents face during an NTRP match ;-)

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Exactly.

Actually, NTRP is in place not 'for fun', but to ensure a level playing field and competitive matches, no matter what the skill level. It lets beginners enjoy competitive matches as well as more advanced players.

When someone is playing drastically out of level, it isn't competitive, and it sure isn't fun (for either side I would imagine, except for those who get a perverse pleasure out of shellacking someone much weaker in skill than they are). People in NTRP levels are working hard on their games, just as hard as someone in an open or age bracket. Some take it too seriously, but again, the few negative experiences usually get much more attention than the positive.

I don't understand this idea of taking advantage of a computer lag.

If the computer says you can play a lower level, and you improve drastically, the reward should be having a season where you stomp people.

Here's an example. I know a lady who self-rated at 3.0 in 2008. That was an appropriate level for her then, so in November 2008 the computer gave her a computer rating of 3.0.

She didn't play for a year due to work obligations. She came back in 2009 and refused to join a 3.0 team and was instead on my 3.5 team. She is solidly 3.5. Yet she plays 7.0 mixed with 4.0 partners and 7.5 combo with 4.0 partners, thereby taking advantage of the lag and being protected by her outdated 3.0 computer rating.

I see no problem with this. The computer will catch up with her this November.

I guess I don't understand because I've never had a season where I've stomped on everyone!

I think the USTA should rate all former college players at 4.5 or higher, until the age of 50.

papatenis said:

I think the USTA should rate all former college players at 4.5 or higher, until the age of 50.

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Actually the rules on it are close to that.

Even D3 unranked (probably the lowest of all college players) must rate themselves at 4.5 if they are 36 or under. Even supposedly if they are "committed" to playing on a team that's the same as playing for the team.

However whatever the chart says to rate at, players typically can appeal so you might as well call it 4.0. They probably wont bother someone if they are at 4.0 and they played D3. (because they'll say they could of gotten an appeal anyway)

The question always is if they cheat on their self rating form or not, and if and when you find that out is the league going to actually do something about it or not. That seems to vary from place to place.

What is going to make it interesting is because they are dropping the age limit though I think we'll see tons of kids even as low as in the 3.5 league who are still in high school and may even be better then some D3 schools. (a lot of D3 schools are no better then a top HS)

I saw a couple this year that made it to their state HS tournament in doubles, however because the USTA regs dont speak of that and you have no way of knowing if they are committed to a college yet they got away with it. (they had just graduated from HS)

I don't mind someone benefitting from "computer lag" or benefitting from improving their game. That is a world of difference from someone lying about their previous playing experience on the self-rate form so they can play well below their level. That is verifiable cheating and is no different than a 22-year old lying about his age so he can win a 45s tournament.

People that whine that someone "looks too good" for their level generally have no idea what they are talking about. That player may simply be having a great day, their opponents failed to capitalize on their weaknesses, etc. Those comments, like crying "wolf", detract from the argument against the real cheaters.

kylebarendrick said:

I don't mind someone benefitting from "computer lag" or benefitting from improving their game. That is a world of difference from someone lying about their previous playing experience on the self-rate form so they can play well below their level. That is verifiable cheating and is no different than a 22-year old lying about his age so he can win a 45s tournament.

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Yea, the kid who's a D2 player (thought he was D3 but I double-checked and he's D2) who we'll be facing at 5.5 combos States self-rated last season as a 2.5. He sandbagged successfully and now has a 3.0 computer rating. I e-mailed the league coordinator and was told that no grievances can be filed against a computer-rated player. This although the fact that he lied about his past experience is verifiable and well-documented. I look forward to seeing how I match up against such competition!

Vermillion said:

A common reason would be that they're unable to find ppl to hit with.

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I think you nailed it. What some people overlook is that the higher you go up the NTRP ladder, there are fewer and fewer people who occupy each rung. Some have to play guys of lesser ability simply because there are no equals around.

Wow, I logged back into tt just now to see my thread got some response. I guess I struck a nerve with the "S" word topic.

I will start by saying I do not take these things as seriously as I may have sounded. I was probably mad because my normal partner wasn't there and we just got smoked. I do agree with the poster who mentioned that on one hand we always are looking for good competition to up our games and as such should refrain from complaining when it does show up in force, and so maybe I was just miffed that my sub was like a deer in the headlights against this ringer we faced. He pretty much gave up after the kid started practicing serves, and gave me this "deer in the headlights" look. He was ready to quit tennis altogether after the match.

I'll also say I could probably bagel no one anyhow, I just like to exaggerate for effect and was talking more about my singles ability, while my doubles is definitely in the 4.0 range I think from experience my singles ability is now closer to 4.5, but I have only been able to sub-up into the 4.5 singles leagues with about a 40% win percentage, and currently I have about a 75% win avg in the 4.0 leagues. I have only self-rated myself comparing myself to others in the appropriate leagues this way. Started league tennis at 3.5 a few years ago and have been progressing ever since. Once I start to win over 90%, I figure it's time to move up (but then again you have to contend with team dynamics, and so maybe, like me, this guy couldn't get in on the 4.5 doubles team just like I couldn't get in as a regular on the 4.5 singles team, so I just play top court 4.0 and still find solid competition there--no blowouts on either side as of yet this year). The gray area between ratings is so vague and broad, so I do come to expect discrepancies. If I actually tried to play in the 4.5 doubles leagues in the area, I would get destroyed. I'm just not a great doubles player, so I play 4.0 doubles. None of these are usta leagues, just club leagues against other local clubs.

Honestly though I had never faced pace like this before, which is what prompted me to vent. The difference between someone sandbagging down 0.5 of a level is not as grand as someone who is obviously 1+ above in skill level. This was one of those "where did this guy come from" moments. You can tell you are out of your element immediately. Hmm, maybe I was really mad that I didn't get the chance to actually rally with this guy to help improve my game. The match was just a series of quick doubles set-ups and put-aways, with them picking on my partner.

In the end, I am just in it for the fun, beer, socializing, and friendly competition. Tennis in no way pays my bills, and I had already moved on a few minutes after my OP. I do appreciate all the comments and for not getting flamed. This does seem like a subject that does plague some more than others, and something that will never go away. I guess I was just amazed really at what could have gone through the head of someone that knows without a doubt that they will tear up their opponent. There is a higher league in our area, that he would have fit in great with, and also still probably have won. Oh well, looking forward to more years of tennis, sandbaggers and all.

herrburgess said:

Yea, the kid who's a D2 player (thought he was D3 but I double-checked and he's D2) who we'll be facing at 5.5 combos States self-rated last season as a 2.5. He sandbagged successfully and now has a 3.0 computer rating. I e-mailed the league coordinator and was told that no grievances can be filed against a computer-rated player. This although the fact that he lied about his past experience is verifiable and well-documented. I look forward to seeing how I match up against such competition!

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Good luck playing them at State. Hopefully your team will give him a better run for his money then my team could.

He is the perfect example of a sandbagger. A 21 year-old that played high school tennis. Went to the state high school playoffs. Has been on the roster of a DII tennis team for the past two seasons.

He self-rates (or I suspect his captain self-rates him) as a 2.5 and he makes it through the season and combo without getting bumped because he is only playing 2.5 matches and combo. No one says anything about him because no one wants to be "that guy." He gets a computer rating as a 3.0 and he can't be DQed. Then he spends that next two years mashing people at the 3.0 level.

I asked him why in the world does he want to come out and beat the heck out of a bunch of middle aged newbies learning how to play tennis. His response was because it is fun to win. I just write it off to the inexperience of youth.

By the way, I think sandbaggers (at least at the lower levels of 2.5/3.0/3.5) suffer in the long run. By constantly playing matches where you are not challenged, you get lazy. When you do face higher competition, you aren't ready to compete. It is the same reason you should play up when you are ready, even if your NTRP level hasn't caught up with you yet.

film1 said:

Sometimes people get down is a set and write it off to be able to compete in the second set. I have seen people loose or tank a set and win matches, especially in the heat.

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That is true, I should've said during a whole match that a 4.0 would never double bagel a 3.5.

So far all the whining about sandbaggers has come from the losers and also-rans. Are there any current National Champions on here to defend themselves against the accusations that all National Championship winners are cheaters?

Maybe the winners just don't have time to post because they are playing and practicing, instead of whining on a forum?