DivII, DivIII and JC players required to start at 4.5 rating

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!<-_->!

Hall of Fame
Why does USTA require all collegiate players in this bracket to start out at at least a 4.5 rating? I feel that not all players who play at the collegiate level, depending on the position played, are at the 4.5 level. At least speaking for myself, I'm playing JC and I'm not a 4.5. Is there no way around this?
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
!<-_->! said:
Why does USTA require all collegiate players in this bracket to start out at at least a 4.5 rating? I feel that not all players who play at the collegiate level, depending on the position played, are at the 4.5 level. At least speaking for myself, I'm playing JC and I'm not a 4.5. Is there no way around this?
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Sometimes you can get a self rating appeal from your district or section coordinator to 4.0.

Otherwise enjoy 4.5, at least you'll get some experience playing some decent competition, cant hurt!

Junior College does seem a bit low though, there are high school players that are far better then some JC and DivIII players and Im sure thanks to the new age drop we'll be seeing quite a few of those even as low as 3.5.
 
P

Panic492

Rookie
I played #1 D3 20 years ago. Self rated 4.5 4 years ago (after a 7 year layoff) and got beat around pretty good. Got bumped down to 4.0, then 3.5, then back up to 4.0. Seems like the system works in this case.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
Last time I looked at the Experienced Player Guidelines, it basically rates college players from 4.5 up to 6.5. I would guess the majority of college players don't live up to these expectations. I've met a few former college players in the area and have yet to meet one who is even a 5.0. They are all 4.5 and 4.0s, and a few of the elder players being as low as 3.5. A couple of them are even former unranked D1 players still in their 20s!
 
B

Barry767

Guest
I am in the same boat as a former JC player. But when I looked at the self rate I thought it said for JC to start at 4.0 and still I don't think I'm there yet.

I took 35 years off, just started back 9 months ago with a little time off for shoulder surgery. I guessed the best thing to do is play at the 4.0 and see how I do? Most likely loose and get bumped down to 3.5?

Does that happen automatically or do I have to appeal?
 
E

escii_35

Rookie
Yes, those under 35 w/o operation scars should be 4.5's.

I'm really tired of ex div III, NAIA folks being recruited by -sandbagger- teams and playing 4.0. A few low end JC players might be able to squeek 4.0 in the old ratings but with the massive reorg over the winter who knows?
 
HitItHarder

HitItHarder

Semi-Pro
There isn't any legitimate way around the 4.5 rating unless you are willing to lie during the self-rate process. It is as simple as that. If you answer the self-rate questions honestly, you will have a 4.5 minimum rating at a minimum.

From that point, you would have to seek an appeal with the local league coordinator and go from there.
 
W

woodrow1029

Guest
I played #5 for a division 3 JC in Massachusetts 12 years ago. On a very good day, I can play 4.0 tennis as now I only play a few times a month. Most of the time, I am a 3.0-3.5 player. On the very rare occassion that I play USTA tournaments, I play 3.5. Would they make me go to 4.5 because of playing college tennis? Nobody has ever complained because I usually lose in first or second round.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
woodrow1029 said:
I played #5 for a division 3 JC in Massachusetts 12 years ago. On a very good day, I can play 4.0 tennis as now I only play a few times a month. Most of the time, I am a 3.0-3.5 player. On the very rare occassion that I play USTA tournaments, I play 3.5. Would they make me go to 4.5 because of playing college tennis? Nobody has ever complained because I usually lose in first or second round.
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If someone filed a grievance against you, I would bet your rating would be changed to 4.0. 4.5 is the default rating, but 4.0 is the typical rating when someone wants to appeal their 4.5 rating.
 
A

andfor

Legend
What I've seen on a few occassions is very good H.S./junior players self-rate senior year and play team tennis before then going to play (sometimes not play) college. I know this does not address the JC, D3 and D2 players automaticlly having to self-rate 4.5. But once you play team tennis as a H.S. senior and get a computer rating it does not matter if you then go to college and play tennis. Computer ratings can not be appealed.

Self-rating senior year as you can imagine could help with those rightfully not deserving to play 4.5 just because they play low level college tennis. Conversley I've seen it used as a way to game the system.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I think it's totally fair.
College players get to practice, hit, and play matches regularly.
Lots of 3.5-4.0 players work, have jobs, families, and much more time consuming activities/commitments and don't get on the court nearly as much.
All my entry level college player buds got to work out, training schedules, practice matches, and drills.
What made them get better was drilling. Forehand half volleys, 50 a day. Backhand half volleys, 50 a day. First serves, 200 a day. Second serves, 300 a day.
You can't do that, work full time, support a family, and still have time for sets and matches if you're not going to school, supported by financial aid or parents.
 
!<-_->!

!<-_->!

Hall of Fame
LeeD said:
I think it's totally fair.
College players get to practice, hit, and play matches regularly.
Lots of 3.5-4.0 players work, have jobs, families, and much more time consuming activities/commitments and don't get on the court nearly as much.
All my entry level college player buds got to work out, training schedules, practice matches, and drills.
What made them get better was drilling. Forehand half volleys, 50 a day. Backhand half volleys, 50 a day. First serves, 200 a day. Second serves, 300 a day.
You can't do that, work full time, support a family, and still have time for sets and matches if you're not going to school, supported by financial aid or parents.
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This is just purely speculation, but I don't feel all colleges run such a strict regime, especially community colleges. DI's for sure have intense practices and workouts along w/ DII's probably. But DIII's and JC's, perhaps those not as competitive, aren't like that. I don't know.. I'm sure it varies from program to program. I know the one I'm at does not really have a strict, intense style of practice and definitely no mandates workouts.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I can speak for CityCollege of SanFrancisco and SanFranciscoState, as Div 111 colleges with full on training programs for tennis, including weight lifting.
USF also had the full program, but maybe they're Div1.
If your college has no real tennis program, maybe it's time for you to invest some $$$$ into the program. Money talks.
 
!<-_->!

!<-_->!

Hall of Fame
CCSF doesn't even have a men's program as far as I know. Team I play for, only the women play that school.
 
J

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
woodrow1029 said:
I played #5 for a division 3 JC in Massachusetts 12 years ago. On a very good day, I can play 4.0 tennis as now I only play a few times a month. Most of the time, I am a 3.0-3.5 player. On the very rare occassion that I play USTA tournaments, I play 3.5. Would they make me go to 4.5 because of playing college tennis? Nobody has ever complained because I usually lose in first or second round.
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How old are you? If you are 36 or over, then it lowers everything by a rating I believe.

(so 4.0 which may be appeal-able to 3.5)
 
equinox

equinox

Hall of Fame
Just fib and play 4.0.

Drop plenty of matches and don't blow anyone out. get computer rated 4.0 then you're fine.
 
OrangePower

OrangePower

Legend
equinox said:
Just fib and play 4.0.

Drop plenty of matches and don't blow anyone out. get computer rated 4.0 then you're fine.
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That's funny.

I digress but this reminds me of this guy that went to Nationals for a 4.0 team in 2009 and completely dominated. When year end ratings came out recently, he got bumped to 5.5 :shock: . First case I've ever seen of a triple-bump. Now get this - he was not even self-rated 4.0 but computer-rated. So this was a long time in the planning - his captain got him to self-rate 4.0 in 2008, played him just a few times making sure to keep scores close, so that he would end the year with a 4.0 computer rating. That meant he could dominate in 2009 without fear of being DQed. I say - if someone is prepared to go to such lengths just to get to nationals, then they deserve it! :)
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I wouldn't know about CCSF nowadaze. I haven't been there since '78. Then, the full top 6 singles, 2 of them play doubles, and 2 other doubles teams comprising non singles players. Coach Phelan was the boss, and weights, running, diet, plus countless drills with other players was the daily call, easily two sessions, 5 days a week.
StanleyWoo and DexterLee were my practice partners before they joined CCSF, by '78, they were getting better than me in strokes and tactics. Doesn't mean they did better in tournaments, as that's something else. Dexter won ChineseNationals, while Stanley and I regularly went 4 rounds. We all entered OpenTourneys and local Q, the TransAM, I got the furthest because I'm lefty and unconventional.;
But I never practiced, never drilled, and hence dropped out of the game by '79.
 
DrewRafter8

DrewRafter8

Professional
equinox said:
Just fib and play 4.0.

Drop plenty of matches and don't blow anyone out. get computer rated 4.0 then you're fine.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't do that. If anyone can google and find your name on a college roster, they can file a grievence that will get you a quick DQ. You have to be 100% truthful when you self rate.
 
C

C-XIII

Rookie
Hey Im so confused about this thread. So Im a freshaman who is going to be playings at a d3 school this season, I just joined the usta and have been playing tournaments, however I believe that I have no nrtp rating yet. So does it mean as soon as my season picks up Ill be registered at a 4.5?or how do I register for an ntrp or what am I suppose to do regarding this. Sorry for being so slow thanks to anyone who helps greatly appreciate it.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
C-XIII said:
Hey Im so confused about this thread. So Im a freshaman who is going to be playings at a d3 school this season, I just joined the usta and have been playing tournaments, however I believe that I have no nrtp rating yet. So does it mean as soon as my season picks up Ill be registered at a 4.5?or how do I register for an ntrp or what am I suppose to do regarding this. Sorry for being so slow thanks to anyone who helps greatly appreciate it.
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If you want to self-rate yourself, go to tennislink.usta.com/leagues/ and look for the self-rating help. You only need to do this if you want to play in an NTRP rated league or tournament. If you are just playing open or age-level tournaments, you don't need an NTRP rating. You will not be given a rating automatically if you play NCAA varsity tennis, but you will not be able to self-rate lower than 4.5 if you fill out the questionnaire honestly.
 
C

C-XIII

Rookie
Well I play Ntrp and open so Im not sure exactly what Im suppose to do about that. How do I get an actual NTRP if I need it?
 
D

darkblue

Semi-Pro
I thought ratings were only required for leagues?

4.5 blanket rule is the only cost effective way to address the problem. There are many Div2, Div3 players who are successful @ 5.0 nationals/sectionals and there are many "ex-college" players who lose in first round of a local 3.5 draw :-?

If you are truly a 4.0 (in your area), play @ 4.5 for a year, and see where the computer will put you...

It's my experience that top 10% of "4.0"s usually win (not necessarily with better strokes/skills) vs. bottom 25% of 4.5.
 
C

C-XIII

Rookie
Yeah the website says its just for leagues so idk how Im suppose to rate myself or does it just not matter?
 
P

pines2222

Rookie
The better Div III schools definitely have some 4.5 players, and I would say that most of the players in Div III are at worst very strong 4.0s (relative to, say, many 3.5 promotes you see in leagues). I think it's a good policy - it's another way to clamp down on sandbagging, and if a player really struggles at 4.5, then they get bumped down the next year.
 
P

pines2222

Rookie
C-XIII said:
Yeah the website says its just for leagues so idk how Im suppose to rate myself or does it just not matter?
Click to expand...

If you aren't going to be playing in NTRP events (because you will simply play in college), it won't matter, but per the rules you should rate yourself at 4.5, because if you rate yourself lower, for some reason play in an NTRP event at that lower level, and someone files a grievance against you, all the matches you won for either an NTRP team or in a NTRP tournament would be forfeited.
 
Z-Man

Z-Man

Professional
DivII players having to rate as 4.5s, I can understand, but DivIII? There is so much variation in DivIII, I really don't think it is fair to make them start out at 4.5. None of the local DivIII players could get a set off of the "old guy" 4.0s I know. But I have a former DivIII player friend who is a very good 4.5 and maybe a 5.0. "College Tennis" doesn't mean much to me. All that matters is whether or not you can compete at a given level.
 
S

Sakkijarvi

Semi-Pro
My daughter currently has three D3 college offers, coaches calling the house and wooing her. The friendly letters and nice academic $$.

She is no 4.5, really. Maybe after playing four years at D3, can't say for sure.
 
Charles Norris

Charles Norris

Rookie
I think all of this works in both directions honestly. I played at a good DII program and we had mostly 5.0's on our team. We beat several DI teams and lost to several DIII and NAIA teams. The variation out there is so great that the idea of automatically being this or that because of playing college tennis seems absurd to me.
 
heftylefty

heftylefty

Hall of Fame
If you any college tennis including JC and you are playing 4.5 that is sandbagging. Pure and simple. If you are over 40, maybe.
 
W

Who Dey Nation

New User
On of my buddies play for a top 75 college as a walk on for one Semester and was number 12 on the team....he had to come out as a 6.0. He is a great player, but nowhere the 6.0 mark.
 
A

andfor

Legend
Who Dey Nation said:
On of my buddies play for a top 75 college as a walk on for one Semester and was number 12 on the team....he had to come out as a 6.0. He is a great player, but nowhere the 6.0 mark.
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If your buddy never played a match and being the number 12 player I doubt he did, he should not have to rate 6.0. Did he play varsity matches, 2 or more? Did the coach letter him? If the answers are no, he can likely play 5.0. I've been down this road a hundred times.
 
beernutz

beernutz

Hall of Fame
heftylefty said:
If you any college tennis including JC and you are playing 4.5 that is sandbagging. Pure and simple. If you are over 40, maybe.
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That may be your opinion but the USTA doesn't agree. According to their guidelines you are a 4.5 if you are 35 and under and you are
NAIA, Div. 2 & 3 unranked college team player (commited to, playing, or played ) -program with no scholarships (not much stronger than High School tennis);
Junior College player;
Former Juniors who had national (foreign or domestic) rankings but did not tour or play in college

If you meet the above qualifications and are over 35 you are a 4.0.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
beernutz said:
That may be your opinion but the USTA doesn't agree. According to their guidelines you are a 4.5 if you are 35 and under and you are
NAIA, Div. 2 & 3 unranked college team player (commited to, playing, or played ) -program with no scholarships (not much stronger than High School tennis);
Junior College player;
Former Juniors who had national (foreign or domestic) rankings but did not tour or play in college

If you meet the above qualifications and are over 35 you are a 4.0.
Click to expand...

So if i wanted to play usta what would (should) i be self rated at?
i am 43. played div 1 NCAA in so cal in my youth. I just started playing tennis again this past summer after 20 years off.
I play with 4.5 computer rated men in club league doubles and I have a hard time. (couple these guys are teaching pros, in their 50's. rest of them are in their 40's like me. couple of college kids as well.) In singles I can beat the same 4.5 guys pretty easily. I only have problems in the 2nd set when i get tired. usually what happens is I will win first set easily (6-2 or 3) then I slow down and the 2nd will end up in a tie breaker or something. I have not lost any singles matches to them yet. If it went 3 sets I might lose because they are much fitter. I have managed to not lose the 2nd so far.
I want to play at most 4.0 singles if i do usta matches or usta team league. I am not trying to sand bag but I only want to play once or twice a week so I don't want to have to try too hard. Can I play 3.5??? I have never played usta so I would have to self rate. I think my age bumps me down a lot from my previous tennis skills. bad knees, etc... And it seems 3.5 guys are sometimes actually 4.0's anyways.
 
equinox

equinox

Hall of Fame
sure selfrate @3.5, lose a few matches, get computer rated. then you're fine. manage your results from then on.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
arche3 said:
So if i wanted to play usta what would (should) i be self rated at?
i am 43. played div 1 NCAA in so cal in my youth. I just started playing tennis again this past summer after 20 years off.
I play with 4.5 computer rated men in club league doubles and I have a hard time. (couple these guys are teaching pros, in their 50's. rest of them are in their 40's like me. couple of college kids as well.) In singles I can beat the same 4.5 guys pretty easily. I only have problems in the 2nd set when i get tired. usually what happens is I will win first set easily (6-2 or 3) then I slow down and the 2nd will end up in a tie breaker or something. I have not lost any singles matches to them yet. If it went 3 sets I might lose because they are much fitter. I have managed to not lose the 2nd so far.
I want to play at most 4.0 singles if i do usta matches or usta team league. I am not trying to sand bag but I only want to play once or twice a week so I don't want to have to try too hard. Can I play 3.5??? I have never played usta so I would have to self rate. I think my age bumps me down a lot from my previous tennis skills. bad knees, etc... And it seems 3.5 guys are sometimes actually 4.0's anyways.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you should be 4.5. You're beating the 4.5s in singles while just starting to play after a long layoff. Once you get back in match shape and play more doubles, you'll have no problem at 4.5. 3.5 would be a major sandbag, and even 4.0 most likely is too low.
 
Eviscerator

Eviscerator

Banned
Charles Norris said:
I think all of this works in both directions honestly. I played at a good DII program and we had mostly 5.0's on our team. We beat several DI teams and lost to several DIII and NAIA teams. The variation out there is so great that the idea of automatically being this or that because of playing college tennis seems absurd to me.
Click to expand...

The rating system (although flawed) can only be a template. As you correctly point out there is a vast canyon between certain teams within a particular division. So while the rating system does try to take that into account by differentiating between top ranked colleges within a particular division, there is no practical way to make it individualized. The only alternative would be to go back to the on court rating system, but that is unlikely to happen for financial reasons.
`
 
beernutz

beernutz

Hall of Fame
arche3 said:
So if i wanted to play usta what would (should) i be self rated at?
i am 43. played div 1 NCAA in so cal in my youth. I just started playing tennis again this past summer after 20 years off.
I play with 4.5 computer rated men in club league doubles and I have a hard time. (couple these guys are teaching pros, in their 50's. rest of them are in their 40's like me. couple of college kids as well.) In singles I can beat the same 4.5 guys pretty easily. I only have problems in the 2nd set when i get tired. usually what happens is I will win first set easily (6-2 or 3) then I slow down and the 2nd will end up in a tie breaker or something. I have not lost any singles matches to them yet. If it went 3 sets I might lose because they are much fitter. I have managed to not lose the 2nd so far.
I want to play at most 4.0 singles if i do usta matches or usta team league. I am not trying to sand bag but I only want to play once or twice a week so I don't want to have to try too hard. Can I play 3.5??? I have never played usta so I would have to self rate. I think my age bumps me down a lot from my previous tennis skills. bad knees, etc... And it seems 3.5 guys are sometimes actually 4.0's anyways.
Click to expand...

I just have to say 'what the heck' at your logic. You previously played D1 tennis, you have yet to lose a singles match to the 4.5s you've played so you know you are competitive at that level but you want to self rate at 4.0 and you are even considering playing 3.5 as an option. How the heck do you not see this as sandbagging? I guess you think it would be an honor for the 4.0s you would play to be crushed by you. I love your rationalization about 3.5s actually being 4.0s--too funny.

Look at the pdf of the USTA ratings guide http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/sitecore_usta/USTA/Document%20Assets/2008/02/14/doc_13_7372.pdf. A former unranked D1 player who is 46-55 should self rate at 4.5 as a minimum.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
beernutz said:
I just have to say 'what the heck' at your logic. You previously played D1 tennis, you have yet to lose a singles match to the 4.5s you've played so you know you are competitive at that level but you want to self rate at 4.0 and you are even considering playing 3.5 as an option. How the heck do you not see this as sandbagging? I guess you think it would be an honor for the 4.0s you would play to be crushed by you. I love your rationalization about 3.5s actually being 4.0s--too funny.

Look at the pdf of the USTA ratings guide http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/sitecore_usta/USTA/Document%20Assets/2008/02/14/doc_13_7372.pdf. A former unranked D1 player who is 46-55 should self rate at 4.5 as a minimum.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be unfair. My knees cannot take a lot of running. so 2 days a week is max for tennis unless its clay courts. I don't get the ranking system. I see some 3.5 computer ranked guys who are great players but lose because they lack mental strength. All the shots. they just choke. And 4.5 players with terrible form who win because they have great mental games. one of the guys I play doubles with played doubles on the ATP tour. He is 55 now but plays 4.5 doubles because all the teaching pros play 4.5 doubles around him as there is not enough 5.0 or higher leagues. so if he (a former ATP pro) plays 4.5 I was just adjusting my ranking down. I do not feel I honor anyone when I play tennis with them. In fact I play mixed doubles with women who are 60 years old and I hit to them softly. I played singles matches with guys that compete at usta 3.0 and I do not crush them. I just rally and work on my game. they don't even know I can play much better. they just call me a ball machine because I never hit it out. lol. I was never that great a tennis player in college compared to the other guys. I was more concerned with surfing. Tennis was what I did all the time because we had a tennis court in my parents house growing up. I was lucky enough to grow up in Palos Verdes, CA so we had a great high school tennis program and coaches all around.

If the rules state I have to self rate at 4.5 then I guess I need to. I just think 20 years off from tennis is a long time. My fitness is not on par with the 4.5 and 5.0 guys I play with. Although I love tennis much more now than I did when I was younger.
 
OrangePower

OrangePower

Legend
Arche, to be fair to you, from your posts I don't get the sense that you're looking to sandbag but that you're genuinely unsure of what the best level for you is.

But there is no doubt that you are a 4.5. Your current results speak for themselves. And you will only get better as you get back into competitive tennis, given your background. You will be bored to death playing at a lower level.

To give you some comparison, I play with a group of guys that all have similar backgrounds: Played high school tennis, but were not good enough to play competitive college tennis, took 15-25 years off the game, and are now back playing in their 40's and 50's. Some in this group are 4.0s, some are 4.5s. Given that you were good enough to play D1, there is no way you are lower than a 4.5.
 
Charles Norris

Charles Norris

Rookie
Eviscerator said:
The rating system (although flawed) can only be a template. As you correctly point out there is a vast canyon between certain teams within a particular division. So while the rating system does try to take that into account by differentiating between top ranked colleges within a particular division, there is no practical way to make it individualized. The only alternative would be to go back to the on court rating system, but that is unlikely to happen for financial reasons.
`
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree. I guess that's the best format made so far and thus available for us to use.
 
R

Raiden.Kaminari

Semi-Pro
OrangePower said:
That's funny.

I digress but this reminds me of this guy that went to Nationals for a 4.0 team in 2009 and completely dominated. When year end ratings came out recently, he got bumped to 5.5 :shock: . First case I've ever seen of a triple-bump. Now get this - he was not even self-rated 4.0 but computer-rated. So this was a long time in the planning - his captain got him to self-rate 4.0 in 2008, played him just a few times making sure to keep scores close, so that he would end the year with a 4.0 computer rating. That meant he could dominate in 2009 without fear of being DQed. I say - if someone is prepared to go to such lengths just to get to nationals, then they deserve it! :)
Click to expand...

There are many teams that have 5 year plans, in which they artificially keep their ratings low. Eventually people will figure out that's against the true spirit of competition. But not before a new group of players figure out how to game the system.

If you want real glory, play open age group.
 
R

Raiden.Kaminari

Semi-Pro
arche3, I agree with OrangePower. When you self-rate 4.5, file a self-rating appeal if you believe you should be 4.0. If you are denied, and you didn't keep your fitness level up, playing a season with all the current 4.5 should drop you down. Most of us have gotten old, and we're losing our ability to keep up with the younger players. However, once your fitness level improves, I'm sure you would be at least a 4.5 again. You have a great foundation that would never go away.

I always hated going up against PVHS teams. I could tell which players trained with which PV coaches like Lansdorp. I forget the name of the other PV coach who had a major influence on all the junior players in the area at the time.

Anyway, I'm with you. Tennis is so much more enjoyable now. Unfortunately, a lot of adults have never learned the honor of true competition. I do a lot of volunteer work with disadvantaged kids, so give back to the game whenever you can. You will find that it gives you really warm feelings when you can help someone which makes all this self-rating DNTRP nonsense meaningless.
 
JT_2eighty

JT_2eighty

Hall of Fame
OrangePower said:
That's funny.

I digress but this reminds me of this guy that went to Nationals for a 4.0 team in 2009 and completely dominated. When year end ratings came out recently, he got bumped to 5.5 :shock: . First case I've ever seen of a triple-bump. Now get this - he was not even self-rated 4.0 but computer-rated. So this was a long time in the planning - his captain got him to self-rate 4.0 in 2008, played him just a few times making sure to keep scores close, so that he would end the year with a 4.0 computer rating. That meant he could dominate in 2009 without fear of being DQed. I say - if someone is prepared to go to such lengths just to get to nationals, then they deserve it! :)
Click to expand...

If that ain't the definition of "gym class hero", I don't know what is.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
!<-_->! said:
Why does USTA require all collegiate players in this bracket to start out at at least a 4.5 rating? I feel that not all players who play at the collegiate level, depending on the position played, are at the 4.5 level. At least speaking for myself, I'm playing JC and I'm not a 4.5. Is there no way around this?
Click to expand...


Maybe to level out the playing field in case by any miss-carriage of league play you would not have to come up against a 62 year old fat and lame 4.0 like myself.
 
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Steady Eddy
J
Early start 4.0 forced to play as 4.5
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jservoss
J
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