Why do pros never use the twist serve?

Cross-court · Feb 1, 2010

Why don't they use it? Is it hard for them to execute it as a second serve consistently? Or is it not safe as the kick?

This is the one I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2ej4YtY&feature=related

I heard once that they don't use it because "it get's too predictable and it is easy to return it". Well, I think that's pure nonsense because if that were true then the kick serve which just goes straight and up would be even worse of a choice than the twist which changes direction in the air and when it lands.

Others have said that they hit them all the time, but I've never seen a serve just like the one Federer hit there been used "all the time" by anyone. I've seen many second serves that curve a lot in the air, or that bounce really high, but I've never seen one that changes that much direction wehn landing as that one.

LeeD · Feb 1, 2010

You haven't been paying attention. Most pros use a twist for wide second serves. Not all use it EVERY second serve, as the opponent would read it, wouldn't they?

Cross-court · Feb 1, 2010

LeeD said:
You haven't been paying attention. Most pros use a twist for wide second serves. Not all use it EVERY second serve, as the opponent would read it, wouldn't they?

I've seen this serve you mention, but that's just a topspin serve aimed wide, it doesn't behave like the one in the video.

LeeD · Feb 1, 2010

Do you realize that vid is a one off, special, once in a lifetime shot? As all highlights, the player cannot hit that shot every time.
And even the next time, that ball gets returned no problem. Nothing really special about Feds twist there. He hit well inside the center line, but hit with good pace and bounce. He could hit that one better.
Returner was asleep, discouraged, ready to lose that point before the serve. Passing the returner, it was barely wide of the center line.
I can serve twists there, but not as high bouncing. Of course, I tend to play in 60 degree or colder weather, and slick courts.

Cindysphinx · Feb 1, 2010

I think the reason is that the pros aren't necessarily hoping simply to get their opponent to miss the return by confusing them with spin. They often want to take the receiver off the court to set up the next shot, or serve hard to a weakness or avoid a strength. You can't do that as well with a twist serve. IMHO.

LeeD · Feb 1, 2010

HUH ?? ...

iloveu...
My lefty twist on duece court takes any returner about 4' past the doubles alley.
My lefty twist on ad court takes you easily 3' past the center line.
Couple that with my lefty topslice on duece that forces you 4' over to the ad side, and a lefty top/slice that you return from 5-6' past the doubles alley, I think it's a good alternative second serve to have.
And talking singles sticks.

Cross-court · Feb 1, 2010

I think, a twist serve (if you can hit it) is much better than a regular kick which just goes straight and up.

If one that goes straight and up gives you problems, how much more one that changes direction when it bounces?

Carlito · Feb 1, 2010

You can't hit the twist as hard as a kick serve or even a slice. The funny bounce is just a gimmick and won't bother most good players. Even most 4.0 handle it easily. The reverse spin actually slows the ball down once it hits the ground and can cause the ball to just sit up. Also to really hit a good twist causes a lot of strain on the wrist and elbow.

yemenmocha · Feb 1, 2010

The one in the video... the ball probably hit an irregular spot on the court, near the line, a developing crack, small pebble, or something of that nature.

Blake0 · Feb 1, 2010

twist serves are used a lot on the ad side for righties, vice versa for lefties. I don't see it being used as much on the duece side for righties. Maybe it's not as clear to see the twist on the duece side, like the video you showed..

decades · Feb 1, 2010

that was a kick serve and pretty much every pro uses one often as a second serve. roger of course has one of the best.

Zachol82 · Feb 1, 2010

Cross-court said:
Others have said that they hit them all the time, but I've never seen a serve just like the one Federer hit there been used "all the time" by anyone. I've seen many second serves that curve a lot in the air, or that bounce really high, but I've never seen one that changes that much direction wehn landing as that one.

Others have said that they hit them all the time, but you can't be comparing these "other" players to Federer now...

As for that twist serve that Federer did, it's probably a once in a lifetime shot for him. I've never seen him done another twist, although he does have very nice kick serves in his arsenal.

J011yroger · Feb 1, 2010

The TV camera angle is partially to blame. Even world class first serves have a TON of spin and movement on them, the 2nd serves are insane.

It is just very difficult to see from the angles most matches are shown from.

Sometimes you can see it when they show the low 3/4 view like from the returner's shoulder, otherwise the serves look pretty straight.

But ask anyone who has faced an elite world class serve, and it is absolutely no bargain. Any twist serve your local 4.0-4.5 player can throw at you absolutely pales in comparison to even the little guys serves on the tour.

J

Jonny S&V · Feb 1, 2010

J011yroger said:
But ask anyone who has faced an elite world class serve, and it is absolutely no bargain. Any twist serve your local 4.0-4.5 player can throw at you absolutely pales in comparison to even the little guys serves on the tour.

J

Agreed, especially after seeing Isner and Querrey practicing... :shock:

drakulie · Feb 1, 2010

Cross-court said:
Why don't they use it?

nearly every pro uses this serve.

SlapShot · Feb 1, 2010

drakulie said:
nearly every pro uses this serve.

Yep.

Nadal's looks nasty when they show it at ground view. Just glad none of the lefties that I have to face have a serve that moves like that.

As for the vid, as mentioned, that was a rare serve - I bet even Roger didn't expect it to do that.

snvplayer · Feb 1, 2010

Kick serve or twist serve, the definition is a little vague.

Anyway, it's hard to see on TV how much side spin (in addition to topspin) pro's 2nd serve have. Even the nasty one's does not really breaking away like a slice serve.

I am sure Roger did want to put a lot of spin on the serve, but he probably didn't expect it to be that much.

Slazenger07 · Feb 2, 2010

Most pro's use some type of kick serve as their second serve. Ive personally seen Federer hit some nasty twist serves, so it is definitely used.

Cindysphinx · Feb 2, 2010

LeeD said:
HUH ?? ... iloveu...
My lefty twist on duece court takes any returner about 4' past the doubles alley.
My lefty twist on ad court takes you easily 3' past the center line.
Couple that with my lefty topslice on duece that forces you 4' over to the ad side, and a lefty top/slice that you return from 5-6' past the doubles alley, I think it's a good alternative second serve to have.
And talking singles sticks.

I have had to hit twist serves from three different guys: TFM (a 4.0), another 4.0 teammate, and my teaching pro (who has the weakest twist serve of the three, go figure).

None of those serves took me off the court more than a regular kicker would. I couldn't return them for a number of reasons, chief among them that I can't hit well on the rise, they are usually going to my backhand, and I the spin confuses me. If you want to yank me off the court and out of position, you'll want to slice to the deuce court (for a righty) and kick to the BH on the ad court. I will miss all day long.

SystemicAnomaly · Feb 2, 2010

Cross-court said:
...

I heard once that they don't use it because "it get's too predictable and it is easy to return it". Well, I think that's pure nonsense because if that were true then the kick serve which just goes straight and up would be even worse of a choice than the twist which changes direction in the air and when it lands...

I've faced quite a twist serves that do have a very pronounced kick to the left (from my receiving perspective). After you've seen it a few times, it does become very predictable. Granted, the twist serves that I've faced are typically not quite as fast or a well-placed as the Federer twist show. But a the pro level, these guys have seen enough twist serves so that they are not fooled by them very often.

SystemicAnomaly · Feb 2, 2010

junbumkim said:
Kick serve or twist serve, the definition is a little vague.

Anyway, it's hard to see on TV how much side spin (in addition to topspin) pro's 2nd serve have. Even the nasty one's does not really breaking away like a slice serve.

I am sure Roger did want to put a lot of spin on the serve, but he probably didn't expect it to be that much.

Kick serve is a general class of serves that have a heavy topspin component that causes the to kick upward. The twist serve is one type kick serve that kicks off to the side. It is not (vertical-axis) side spin that causes the bounce deviation -- spiral spin is responsible for this. The side spin causes the serve to break to the right (as seen by the receiver) during flight but has no effect on the bounce. On the other hand, spiral spin does not result in any Magnus effect and thus, does not create any deviation during the flight. However, the ground interaction of the spiral spin causes the ball to bounce off to the side.

LightningZI · Feb 2, 2010

Cross-court said:
Why don't they use it? Is it hard for them to execute it as a second serve consistently? Or is it not safe as the kick?

This is the one I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2ej4YtY&feature=related

I heard once that they don't use it because "it get's too predictable and it is easy to return it". Well, I think that's pure nonsense because if that were true then the kick serve which just goes straight and up would be even worse of a choice than the twist which changes direction in the air and when it lands.

Others have said that they hit them all the time, but I've never seen a serve just like the one Federer hit there been used "all the time" by anyone. I've seen many second serves that curve a lot in the air, or that bounce really high, but I've never seen one that changes that much direction wehn landing as that one.

I don't think anyone has brought it up yet but the reason that this serve is different and was special is because it's not the regular righty kick. It's a kick serve hit by a righty with lefty spin. American Twist Serve is what it's called I'm pretty sure.

Only reason it shocked everyone is because the serve requires greater drop down and much more shoulder. Pat Rafter used this serve quite a bit since Pat Rafter was a guy who used Kick Serves for 1st and 2nd serves.

LeeD I'm sorry but your sort of wrong. Hitting Twist serves wouldn't be very predictable, Angles can change, spin, for that reason we also hit flat serves for 95% of first serves.

athiker · Feb 2, 2010

I'm a little vague on the exact difference between kick/twist but it seems like Federer pulls a pretty extreme one out of his bag occasionally late in sets or tiebreaks as a change-up. Against Murray in the AO he hit some pretty severe ones I thought. He didn't ace Murray I don't think like the one in the video, but they were pretty effective.

Anyone else recall this? I'm a little fuzzy this morning on when he uses it. It seems like I've seen him use it to finish off the last point in a game, just like in the video...especially if he is up 40-love or 40-15.

LeeD · Feb 2, 2010

Oh, I didn't know we were limiting our playing levels when we were talking about kick/American twist serves.
Even at 5.0 levels, Div11 like, the twist out wide is used to move the returner out of his normal comfort zone.
As said, lots of players above 4.0 can handle that, so we don't use the same serve every time, like we don't hit the ball exactly the same spot everytime, unless it's winning us the point.
A Twist/Kick doesn't WIN the point against what I consider equal competition. It DOES throw in variety for cause of confusion and to make the returner think more than he did, so too many options sometimes ilicits weak returns or maybe even errors.
NOT having the American twist, you can play decent tennis, you just don't have one more useful weapon.
As an aside, most females don't use the twist serves. Some do, like Henin and the William's, but they choose to select and limit it to special occasions.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Feb 2, 2010

Cross-court said:
Why don't they use it? Is it hard for them to execute it as a second serve consistently? Or is it not safe as the kick?

This is the one I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2ej4YtY&feature=related

I heard once that they don't use it because "it get's too predictable and it is easy to return it". Well, I think that's pure nonsense because if that were true then the kick serve which just goes straight and up would be even worse of a choice than the twist which changes direction in the air and when it lands.

Others have said that they hit them all the time, but I've never seen a serve just like the one Federer hit there been used "all the time" by anyone. I've seen many second serves that curve a lot in the air, or that bounce really high, but I've never seen one that changes that much direction wehn landing as that one.

You're a flippin' ******, and like LeeD said, you're not very attentive either.

Most pros hit purely kick serves for second serves. I don't know if Safin even owns a slice second serve.

And twist serves ARE kick serves. Do your homework! Just because it's not a friggin' ace doesn't mean it's not a twist serve. On TV, it's very difficult to see the chance in direction of the serve, but it's there. Roddick uses it, Federer uses it, Blake uses it, Melzer has a sick one, Murray uses it, Karlovic uses it, Agassi uses it, Courier uses it, and pretty much do 80+% of pros.

Djokovicfan4life · Feb 2, 2010

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
You're a flippin' ******, and like LeeD said, you're not very attentive either.

Haha, a little harsh, don't ya think? It was just a question, and believe me, there are much stupider ones posted every day on this board.

As for pro twist serves, just watch Marin Cilic for evidence of a killer one. Predictable, maybe, but who cares when it bounces over your opponents head every time?

LightningZI · Feb 2, 2010

LeeD said:
Oh, I didn't know we were limiting our playing levels when we were talking about kick/American twist serves.
Even at 5.0 levels, Div11 like, the twist out wide is used to move the returner out of his normal comfort zone.
As said, lots of players above 4.0 can handle that, so we don't use the same serve every time, like we don't hit the ball exactly the same spot everytime, unless it's winning us the point.
A Twist/Kick doesn't WIN the point against what I consider equal competition. It DOES throw in variety for cause of confusion and to make the returner think more than he did, so too many options sometimes ilicits weak returns or maybe even errors.
NOT having the American twist, you can play decent tennis, you just don't have one more useful weapon.
As an aside, most females don't use the twist serves. Some do, like Henin and the William's, but they choose to select and limit it to special occasions.

Practically what I just said in my post when you said that we don't hit the ball in the same spot.. Unless of course it works, Then it obviously stops working soon after.

There's a difference between having a weapon and using it. Having it and not using it is technically the same as not having it unless there's specific cases, While having it and using it is much different. Not many use the American Twist, For obvious reasons as you should know.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Feb 2, 2010

LightningZI said:
I don't think anyone has brought it up yet but the reason that this serve is different and was special is because it's not the regular righty kick. It's a kick serve hit by a righty with lefty spin. American Twist Serve is what it's called I'm pretty sure.

Only reason it shocked everyone is because the serve requires greater drop down and much more shoulder. Pat Rafter used this serve quite a bit since Pat Rafter was a guy who used Kick Serves for 1st and 2nd serves.

LeeD I'm sorry but your sort of wrong. Hitting Twist serves wouldn't be very predictable, Angles can change, spin, for that reason we also hit flat serves for 95% of first serves.

You're an idiot. Any player who regularly sees kick serves has no more trouble anticipating how it will bounce than a flat serve.

And only noobs use flat serves on 95% on first serves. Once you start playing real tennis, it's replaced by hard topspin serves.

And you don't even know what a kick serve is, what a twist serve is, and what an American twist serve is! You shouldn't be talking! A kick serve is a serve that bounces high. Originally it only referred to the twist serve (originally known as the American twist serve), but then there was an issue on calling whether it was a true twist or a topspin serve (since topspin serves do sometimes have that kind of action), so they labeled every high-bouncing serve under the category of a kick serve. A twist serve is a topspin serve with extra sidespin (not necessarily the normal kind, but more of a spiral type of sidespin) that makes it curve in the air the bounce the other way. It curves in the same direction as a slice serve, but changes direction in the opposite way (which is actually only a few degrees).

There are some rumors of the existence of a righty twist serve hit with the opposite spin (lefty twist serve spin). Such would be called a reverse kick serve or a reverse twist serve (obviously you couldn't think that far). There IS a reverse slice serve and was used in the Hopman Cup by Dimitry Tursunov for kicks and giggles. People NEVER use reverse serves in a serious match because it isn't practiced and lacks effectiveness throughout the length of a match.

LightningZI · Feb 2, 2010

LeeD said:
Do you realize that vid is a one off, special, once in a lifetime shot? As all highlights, the player cannot hit that shot every time.
And even the next time, that ball gets returned no problem. Nothing really special about Feds twist there. He hit well inside the center line, but hit with good pace and bounce. He could hit that one better.
Returner was asleep, discouraged, ready to lose that point before the serve. Passing the returner, it was barely wide of the center line.
I can serve twists there, but not as high bouncing. Of course, I tend to play in 60 degree or colder weather, and slick courts.

I think you contradicted yourself here Lee, You say it's a special once in a lifetime shot, But he could have hit that one better? How would you hit a "Special, Once in a Lifetime Shot" Better? I agree the returner wasn't the most attentive person. I haven't ever seen an old person brag but here you do it quite a bit. I understand your an amazing football star who failed to get to the NFL, an amazing Dirtbiker who failed to go pro... But at 60ish I don't think the best way to spend your life is bragging and staying on the Talk tennis forums more than a few hours of your life...:|

LightningZI · Feb 2, 2010

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
You're an idiot. Any player who regularly sees kick serves has no more trouble anticipating how it will bounce than a flat serve.

And only noobs use flat serves on 95% on first serves. Once you start playing real tennis, it's replaced by hard topspin serves.

And you don't even know what a kick serve is, what a twist serve is, and what an American twist serve is! You shouldn't be talking! A kick serve is a serve that bounces high. Originally it only referred to the twist serve (originally known as the American twist serve), but then there was an issue on calling whether it was a true twist or a topspin serve (since topspin serves do sometimes have that kind of action), so they labeled every high-bouncing serve under the category of a kick serve. A twist serve is a topspin serve with extra sidespin (not necessarily the normal kind, but more of a spiral type of sidespin) that makes it curve in the air the bounce the other way. It curves in the same direction as a slice serve, but changes direction in the opposite way (which is actually only a few degrees).

There are some rumors of the existence of a righty twist serve hit with the opposite spin (lefty twist serve spin). Such would be called a reverse kick serve or a reverse twist serve (obviously you couldn't think that far). There IS a reverse slice serve and was used in the Hopman Cup by Dimitry Tursunov for kicks and giggles. People NEVER use reverse serves in a serious match because it isn't practiced and lacks effectiveness throughout the length of a match.

Calm down a bit then I'll post a reply

xFullCourtTenniSx · Feb 2, 2010

Djokovicfan4life said:
Haha, a little harsh, don't ya think? It was just a question, and believe me, there are much stupider ones posted every day on this board.

As for pro twist serves, just watch Marin Cilic for evidence of a killer one. Predictable, maybe, but who cares when it bounces over your opponents head every time?

There's stupid and there's blind ignorance. This falls under the latter category. And the fact that there's even a misconception of what an American twist serve is?! Jesus! How dumb can people be?!

And I'll go look it up. Federer and Roddick also own very high kickers and are known for their abilities to hit 7 foot kickers. Though compared to others with the same ability, they are VERY short. Karlovic and Cilic are giants compared to Federer and Roddick.

pabletion · Feb 2, 2010

J011yroger said:
The TV camera angle is partially to blame. Even world class first serves have a TON of spin and movement on them, the 2nd serves are insane.

It is just very difficult to see from the angles most matches are shown from.

Sometimes you can see it when they show the low 3/4 view like from the returner's shoulder, otherwise the serves look pretty straight.

But ask anyone who has faced an elite world class serve, and it is absolutely no bargain. Any twist serve your local 4.0-4.5 player can throw at you absolutely pales in comparison to even the little guys serves on the tour.

J

Yup, I had a hit last year with a Futures contender from the US (he didnt even enter the qualies). The serve was like nothing I have ever seen before. His kick serves were sick, and he just took a little look to see where I was standing and picked a corner; I tried stepping back, tried moving forward to take it on the rise........................ it would take a very long time to get used to a serve like that, it was, well, special.

mucat · Feb 2, 2010

Pro men hit the twist serve all the time. It is just the camera angle makes it difficult to see the twist. There are certain tell tale signs, if the opponent got jammed on the BH side by a 2nd serve, it is probably a twist.

Djokovicfan4life · Feb 2, 2010

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
There's stupid and there's blind ignorance. This falls under the latter category. And the fact that there's even a misconception of what an American twist serve is?! Jesus! How dumb can people be?!

And I'll go look it up. Federer and Roddick also own very high kickers and are known for their abilities to hit 7 foot kickers. Though compared to others with the same ability, they are VERY short. Karlovic and Cilic are giants compared to Federer and Roddick.

Cilic's really is insane. At 6'6 with a huge knee bend and back arch he gets some absolutely monstrous kick on his serve.

Nellie · Feb 2, 2010

to the OP - plenty of of pros hit an American twist serve. Djokovich, for example, hits really good ones.

I just think that the pros (male and female) like to keep the speed up as much as possible, and slice/kick serve works better for that. I also believe that some pros are worried about shoulder issues so they don't do the toss to the backhand side - the slice kick is much smoother on the rotator cuff.

jazzyfunkybluesy · Feb 2, 2010

Sometimes they hit the twist on the first serve to really keep people guessing.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Feb 2, 2010

Djokovicfan4life said:
Cilic's really is insane. At 6'6 with a huge knee bend and back arch he gets some absolutely monstrous kick on his serve.

Can't find any good clips.

But I'll keep looking. And yeah, a 6'6" player with that kind of knee bend should have something pretty sick. I saw one point where Djokovic clearly did return it from above his head, but he was a few feet behind the baseline. I saw some other people return it, and they stepped in to prevent such a scenario.

Nellie said:
to the OP - plenty of of pros hit an American twist serve. Djokovich, for example, hits really good ones.

I just think that the pros (male and female) like to keep the speed up as much as possible, and slice/kick serve works better for that. I also believe that some pros are worried about shoulder issues so they don't do the toss to the backhand side - the slice kick is much smoother on the rotator cuff.

No. It's the camera angle. If you watch it from a better angle, you'll see the twist.

As for how monstrous the pro kickers are, I think it's more about the speed off the bounce in addition to the height more than anything else. Few rec players are used to high level kickers that seem to really explode off the bounce. Top players are used to it, but they'll still get jammed because of the placement. Even though when you play against them, the change in direction looks massive, it's really not all that much in terms of degrees, which is why it's very unnoticeable with a bad camera angle that we are normally fed.

Djokovicfan4life · Feb 2, 2010

I couldn't find a good vid of Marin either. The funny thing is, his first serve percentage was one of the worst at the Australian Open if I'm not mistaken. You'd think it'd be a model of consistency with the amount of spin he gets with that service motion.

LeeD · Feb 2, 2010

I think Celic goes for placement and spin to the extreme, causing a little inconsistency because he's GOING FOR IT. Sure, he doesn't always hit flat fast movers, but even a really hard spun serve is hard to hit if you're going 100% for placement and spin.
And at 6'4", if his percentage was up, he'd beat everyone. Fortunately for us, most tall guys serve great only so often, and mediocre quite often. Otherwise, 6' tall players would never stand a chance.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Feb 2, 2010

LeeD said:
And at 6'4", if his percentage was up, he'd beat everyone. Fortunately for us, most tall guys serve great only so often, and mediocre quite often. Otherwise, 6' tall players would never stand a chance.

Actually, the reason the shorter players have a chance is because of superior movement and a more well rounded game (better groundstrokes).

However, the recent crop of giants seemed to have overcome that, but have issues with their serves... Go figure. Haha.

LeeD · Feb 2, 2010

Don't forget the tall player's short expected life expectancy. Oh, they'll live as long as 6' players, just their tennis career at the top is much shorter.
Doesn't apply to basketball, for some reason.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Feb 2, 2010

LeeD said:
Don't forget the tall player's short expected life expectancy. Oh, they'll live as long as 6' players, just their tennis career at the top is much shorter.
Doesn't apply to basketball, for some reason.

Probably also due to the movement factor.

In basketball, even if you're slow, you're still going to be a good center if you're freakishly tall. Hell, they don't even expect their tall centers to be quick, just cover the inside and get the ball for the team.

For those that are tall and have freakishly good movement (most of basketball and Kobe Bryant especially), African blood seems to hold some special athletic properties that seem to prolong their athletic careers. As such, we should expect Federer to play top 5 level tennis until at least he's 35, and top 10 level tennis until he's 40, and top 20 level tennis until he's 55. If he applied himself in doubles, his career would never end until he dies of most likely natural causes in his sleep (since God gave him everything else anyways).

SystemicAnomaly · Feb 2, 2010

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
You're a flippin' ******, and like LeeD said, you're not very attentive either.

Most pros hit purely kick serves for second serves. I don't know if Safin even owns a slice second serve.

And twist serves ARE kick serves. Do your homework!

Let's be civil, people. There is no call for this type of response.

Note that kick serve and twist serve are not synonymous terms. The twist is one type of kick serve (as I previously stated).

Remguy · Aug 11, 2020

Djokovicfan4life said:
Haha, a little harsh, don't ya think? It was just a question, and believe me, there are much stupider ones posted every day on this board.

As for pro twist serves, just watch Marin Cilic for evidence of a killer one. Predictable, maybe, but who cares when it bounces over your opponents head every time?

Geezus, whatta MAROON! It's spelled STOOPIDER. Didn't you go to skool?

Remguy · Aug 11, 2020

Cindysphinx said:
I have had to hit twist serves from three different guys: TFM (a 4.0), another 4.0 teammate, and my teaching pro (who has the weakest twist serve of the three, go figure).

None of those serves took me off the court more than a regular kicker would. I couldn't return them for a number of reasons, chief among them that I can't hit well on the rise, they are usually going to my backhand, and I the spin confuses me. If you want to yank me off the court and out of position, you'll want to slice to the deuce court (for a righty) and kick to the BH on the ad court. I will miss all day long.

Loved your comment, even 10 yrs later. Me, I can miss a ball when someone just tosses one to me, much less a speeding, spinning & twisting (snapping, snarling & drooling) MONSTER! Top pro players are inhuman freaks of nature and really shouldn't be shown to the tennis playing public for the same reasons that underweight & airbrushed models can harm a growing girl's self image. We just don't compare! (And never will... <sob>

)

Dan R · Aug 11, 2020

By twist serve, I assume you mean the American Twist Serve which acts like a slice serve in the air, but bounces the opposite direction from a slice serve. I agree that you rarely see it at the pro level. I believe that's because it's a very hard serve to hit, and for it to work it has to be traveling slowly (at least for the pros) and they don't want to take that risk.

For amateur, the difference in speed between a kick serve and a twist serve is not that great, but for a pro it is much greater. So, I don't think they can get away with it - because the opponent can see it coming and then they have just served up a meatball.

Traffic · Aug 11, 2020

I get confused with the term, "Twist" vs "kicker".

Top spin is when the ball bounces straight back.
Kicker is when the ball looks kind of like a slice in the air but bounces in the opposite direction (toward Ad for righty and Deuce for Lefty)

I've heard someone say the American Twist is like an opposite slice. The ball moves to the Ad court in the air and bounces even more to the Ad (for a righty)

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Dan R · Aug 11, 2020

Traffic said:
I get confused with the term, "Twist" vs "kicker".

Top spin is when the ball bounces straight back.
Kicker is when the ball looks kind of like a slice in the air but bounces in the opposite direction (toward Ad for righty and Deuce for Lefty)

I've heard someone say the American Twist is like an opposite slice. The ball moves to the Ad court in the air and bounces even more to the Ad (for a righty)

Can anyone shed some light on this?

I think it is confusing since these terms are not used very precisely. To me I think of a top spin serve and kick serve as the same thing, and that describes any serve that has a significant component of top spin (it could be a combination of slice and top spin, or just pure top spin). Further complicating things is that even flat serves are not totally flat and have some topspin on them, especially for players that aren't real tall like me, but I'll stick with calling those flat serves.

The twist serve, or American Twist serve as some people call it, is a topspin/kick serve that curves in the air like a slice serve, but bounces in the opposite direction as a slice serve when it lands. I've never been able to master the serve except every once in a while when I hit one by accident, but my suspicious is that to hit this serve you have to hit a slice serve with a lot of spin and arc so that ball is dropping more vertically downward to create the reverse bounce. If the slice serve is hit with a lower trajectory it skids on the bounce, and retains most of it's slice spin after the bounce and continues curving in the direction it was headed before the bounce.

I've seen people that serve with a semi-western grip and can hit a reverse slice (like a left slice if you are right handed), but I wouldn't call that a twist serve (I'd call it a pain in the ass to return, especially if like one guy I play he switches his grip right before impact).

I'm not sure if everyone uses these terms the same, but that's how I understand them.

SystemicAnomaly · Aug 11, 2020

Traffic said:
I get confused with the term, "Twist" vs "kicker".

Top spin is when the ball bounces straight back.
Kicker is when the ball looks kind of like a slice in the air but bounces in the opposite direction (toward Ad for righty and Deuce for Lefty)

I've heard someone say the American Twist is like an opposite slice. The ball moves to the Ad court in the air and bounces even more to the Ad (for a righty)

Can anyone shed some light on this?

What you are describing for the "Kicker" is exactly what the American Twist does. This serve was developed way back in the late1800. Holcombe Ward and Dwight Davis are credited with introducing it..

"Topspin serve" and "kick serve" are somewhat ambiguous terms. Some ppl use the terms, "kick serve" and "twist serve", synonymously. However this is not the way that it is always commonly used.

Many regard "kick" as a general class of serves of which there are 2 or 3 types. For many, the (American) twist is considered one type of kick serve. It has a very distinctive directional change at the bounce. This directional change is due to the presence of spiral spin.

Most kick serves typically have a generous amount of sidespin along with some topspin. If a ball with slice & topspin approaches the ground at a steep angle, it will bounce high (kick up). Many of these kick serves will not have much spiral spin, so they will kick up but will not change direction very much on the bounce.

However if the spin rate is very high on one of these (topspin-slice) kick serves, the ball acquires spiral spin as it flies thru the air. With a sufficient amount of a spiral spin, the ball experiences a dramatic directional change when it bounces. This is what is referred to as a twist (or American twist) serve. In the Federer video, it is referred to as a "monster kick".

I believe that a topspin serve is one where something close to a 6 to 12 brush is employed. Such a serve has a strong component of but not very much sidespin. If this serve approaches the ground at a steep angle, the ball will bounce high. This could be considered a "topspin" kick serve. Not sure if these so-called the topspin (kick) serves ever have much spiral spin associated with them to cause a significant correctional change on the bounce.

SystemicAnomaly · Aug 11, 2020

Dan R said:
I think it is confusing since these terms are not used very precisely. To me I think of a top spin serve and kick serve as the same thing, and that describes any serve that has a significant component of top spin (it could be a combination of slice and top spin, or just pure top spin). Further complicating things is that even flat serves are not totally flat and have some topspin on them, especially for players that aren't real tall like me, but I'll stick with calling those flat serves.

The twist serve, or American Twist serve as some people call it, is a topspin/kick serve that curves in the air like a slice serve, but bounces in the opposite direction as a slice serve when it lands. I've never been able to master the serve except every once in a while when I hit one by accident, but my suspicious is that to hit this serve you have to hit a slice serve with a lot of spin and arc so that ball is dropping more vertically downward to create the reverse bounce. If the slice serve is hit with a lower trajectory it skids on the bounce, and retains most of it's slice spin after the bounce and continues curving in the direction it was headed before the bounce.

I've seen people that serve with a semi-western grip and can hit a reverse slice (like a left slice if you are right handed), but I wouldn't call that a twist serve (I'd call it a pain in the ass to return, especially if like one guy I play he switches his grip right before impact).

I'm not sure if everyone uses these terms the same, but that's how I understand them.

Agree for the most part. Except it has been found that most so-called "kick serves" surprisingly have more slice spin than topsin present.

So most kick serves are of the topspin-slice variety (but usually have more sides than topspin). As long as a topspin-slice serve hits the ground at a steep angle, it will kick up.

If the initial spin rate is high enough, the ball will acquire a good amount of spiral spin. The presence of this special spin is what gives us the dramatic directional change (reverse) at the bounce for the twist serve.

Why do pros never use the twist serve?

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