Keeping The Faith?

I take clinics with a group of ladies. We've been together for maybe a year now with this pro that we all like very much. The clinics are a lot of fun, and everyone is very nice.

The four of us players are on the same teams, so now we get to partner and use what we learn in clinic. Sounds good, right?

I've kind of noticed something. The pro emphasizes correct doubles strategy and positioning and suchlike, and we spend a lot of time on net play and approach volleys and S&V and all of that hard stuff. And you know what?

None of that seems to do us much good in matches. Consider the facts:

I had a win yesterday partnered with one lady. Neither of us S&V's even once. Neither of us poached unless the ball was an easy sitter or came straight to us. We played plain Vanilla baseline tennis, as did our opponents.

I had a win recently with another of the ladies. She started the match with some S&V and was promptly schooled by her opponents who put the ball at her feet. We decided it would be better if she just stayed back.

If I ever tried to S&V in 7.0 mixed, my partner would pin my ears back. Nor would he appreciate it if I launched myself across the net to poach while he is rallying crosscourt with the other guy.

The long and short of it is that if we clinic players want to win our matches, we had better keep the fancy stuff on the shelf. This is particularly so since our serves aren't exactly material for the highlight reel, so why are we working so hard on S&V behind these weak serves?

I dunno. I was contemplating one of our drills today. A player served to the opponent and played out the point crosscourt. I would say that for every high-quality shot made, there were 10 misses/Crap Shots. Each of us has several bad habits, and I am not seeing a whole lot of change in those bad habits. The one who takes big backswings still takes big backswings. The one who doesn't split step still doesn't split step. And the one who hits crummy service returns still hits crummy service returns (that last one is me).

Which makes me question my faith in continuing to work on these Proper Doubles Strategies. If you can't execute it in a clinic and are afraid to try it in a match, what is the point again?

Cindysphinx said:

....Which makes me question my faith in continuing to work on these Proper Doubles Strategies. If you can't execute it in a clinic and are afraid to try it in a match, what is the point again?

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My feeling is that your objectives are misguided when you go to play a match. It seems that you place a greater emphasis on winning the match rather than improving your game. Whenever people place more emphasis on the short term objectives, the longer term goals seem to remain on the horizon. This is one of the primary reasons why club-level players have such a difficult time improving substantially.

My recommendation is to focus on the long term objective of improving your game. You will likely lose more as you progress, but at least you will see a progression.

Just my $0.02.

I would say that you are providing your pro a very good living. After a year you should a least be comfortable moving to the net with some success. Of course it is hard to be effective at the net without a solid overhead, and I am assuming it is still a weakness for your group.

Having a less than powerful serve actually does not hurt you as it does provide you more time to get into net. Playing your first half volley or volley deep is the key. Once you hold a good net position you should be able to control the point. You do not need to always hit with power to win a point... angles do just as well.

The simple strategy in doubles is to use your shot to create a hole and on the next shot put the ball through it. There are exceptions of course... if you have a sitter and there are no holes... make one.

Volleys are pretty easy once you work out the technique in executing them... and where to hit your volleys. I would like to think that after a year you would be well on your way to having a solid net game.

I am pretty sure I could teach someone to be comfortable at the net in 6 months or less.

Now taking it from the practice court to matchplay.... depends on the strength of mind of the individual.

A couple of things:

If two teams play suboptimal doubles strategy (your first example), one of them will win. You happened to be on that team. That does not mean that you wouldn't have won easier/faster if you had played optimal doubles strategy.

The thing about S&V is you are going to get returns you can't handle (singles and doubles) from time to time. If your friend can't handle that Mentally, they are in the wrong sport. If you are going to S&V, you are going to have to stick with it.

If you play 7.0 doubles with me and you let a poachable ball pass by so I can hit another groundie, that is a mistake (not a giant mistake, but a mistake nonetheless). Your partners in 7.0 are in error for criticizing you.

Always a tussle to decide whether to play your best now with your skills, or to acquire new, more advanced skills to get your level ABOVE where you are now.
Progression is a series of firts, starts, and declines. The losses would be considered "declines", but so would losing some strokes while learning new strokes.
But without learning the new stuff, how can you make the old stuff allow you to progress in your tennis?
Some players embrace the concept of playing within yourself. Those are the ones to be good solid players thru 6 years.
Other's seem to like the idea of stretching their abilities, so after 4 years, they're still losing to the former, but after 6 years, developed a full level or two HIGHER than the conservative pusher.
Your choice, based on your experience, mental makeup, tendencies, opponent's, and shelf life.
Should you be bold and embrace change and a whole new idea?
Should you retreat into your shell and be the best you can be, while never taking a chance, limiting your final skill set?

LuckyR said:

If you play 7.0 doubles with me and you let a poachable ball pass by so I can hit another groundie, that is a mistake (not a giant mistake, but a mistake nonetheless). Your partners in 7.0 are in error for criticizing you.

Click to expand...

Really depends on the quality of poaches that she is doing. Poaching just to poach is a big mistake. You poach when you are confident you will do some damage; otherwise it just hurts the court coverage.

I suggest you decide on SV or not based on what kind of returns you are getting from each returner. Some love a target.
Keep playing to win! Losing and using the excuse of trying to improve your game doesn't cut it for me, as that is what clinics and practice are for.

What they said...

...and I agree that your pro is doing a good job, but realize that he's teaching you "classical" doubles strategy...serve and volley, chip and charge, all that good stuff. As I said in a post earlier this year, even at the ATP and WTA levels, there are all kinds of strategies that win matches...one up/one back, both back, you name it. So maybe you want to talk to your pro about these alternate strategies.

However, whatever strategy you go with, a strategy is only as good as the building blocks behind it. As in, both back pretty much means you better both have pretty good ground strokes.

Take a look back at your original post:

"I dunno. I was contemplating one of our drills today. A player served to the opponent and played out the point crosscourt. I would say that for every high-quality shot made, there were 10 misses/Crap Shots. Each of us has several bad habits, and I am not seeing a whole lot of change in those bad habits. The one who takes big backswings still takes big backswings. The one who doesn't split step still doesn't split step. And the one who hits crummy service returns still hits crummy service returns (that last one is me).

Which makes me question my faith in continuing to work on these Proper Doubles Strategies. If you can't execute it in a clinic and are afraid to try it in a match, what is the point again?"

I think you're being a little hard on you and your clinic mates, but from what you say, it's not a problem of strategy, it's a problem of execution. In other words, it isn't that you don't understand classical doubles, it's that you're missing the tools...a consistent, forcing return, a split step, a shorter backswing, whatever...that you need to make the desired strategy happen.

I actually think your pro is doing a good job, because he's trying to get you into simple patterns that incorporate a strategy with its elements. You have to hit a solid return, make a good move, split step, prepare for the volley, make a clean shot, move in...nothing earth-shaking, but it's a wholistic way to integrate shot making with point construction. So, basically, I say, just stick with it.

"Yeah, but we'll lose matches," is what I can hear you saying. Maybe this year, but in the future, maybe you'll win a bunch of matches you wouldn't have won without stepping up in class a little bit. A lot of making something that is a step up for you actually work in a match situation is just believing in yourself, or more accurately, in yourself and your partner.

As in, "We might lose this one, but we are gonna S&V all the way." Yeah, you might lose the match, and you might even lose a lot of points, but you probably won't lose them all. And guess what happens every time you win a point using a higher level strategy? That's right, you get more comfortable doing it, which makes the next point easier and more comfortable...something that your opponents, no doubt, will pick up on as well....

Cindysphinx said:

I take clinics with a group of ladies. We've been together for maybe a year now with this pro that we all like very much. The clinics are a lot of fun, and everyone is very nice.

The four of us players are on the same teams, so now we get to partner and use what we learn in clinic. Sounds good, right?

I've kind of noticed something. The pro emphasizes correct doubles strategy and positioning and suchlike, and we spend a lot of time on net play and approach volleys and S&V and all of that hard stuff. And you know what?

None of that seems to do us much good in matches. Consider the facts:

I had a win yesterday partnered with one lady. Neither of us S&V's even once. Neither of us poached unless the ball was an easy sitter or came straight to us. We played plain Vanilla baseline tennis, as did our opponents.

I had a win recently with another of the ladies. She started the match with some S&V and was promptly schooled by her opponents who put the ball at her feet. We decided it would be better if she just stayed back.

If I ever tried to S&V in 7.0 mixed, my partner would pin my ears back. Nor would he appreciate it if I launched myself across the net to poach while he is rallying crosscourt with the other guy.

The long and short of it is that if we clinic players want to win our matches, we had better keep the fancy stuff on the shelf. This is particularly so since our serves aren't exactly material for the highlight reel, so why are we working so hard on S&V behind these weak serves?

I dunno. I was contemplating one of our drills today. A player served to the opponent and played out the point crosscourt. I would say that for every high-quality shot made, there were 10 misses/Crap Shots. Each of us has several bad habits, and I am not seeing a whole lot of change in those bad habits. The one who takes big backswings still takes big backswings. The one who doesn't split step still doesn't split step. And the one who hits crummy service returns still hits crummy service returns (that last one is me).

Which makes me question my faith in continuing to work on these Proper Doubles Strategies. If you can't execute it in a clinic and are afraid to try it in a match, what is the point again?

Click to expand...

For one, you're practicing so you can get proper shots down to use these skills. If you don't work on perfecting these skills (half volleys, volleys, anticipation, kill shots), then you'll never own them. It is suicidal to go out and play a strategy or tactic when you don't have any of the tools to back it up. You CAN come in off a weak serve if your net game is superb.

And when you play risky tennis like serving and volleying, you WILL get passed and lose a lot of points doing it. Does it mean you'll lose? No! Successful serve and volleyers understand that even if they lose a lot of points doing it, they can still come out on top.

And to improve in the long run, you HAVE to lose in the short run (unless you're freakishly talented and learn REALLY quick).

For one, focus on getting the ball back so persistently that the opponent can't help but collapse and make errors. From there, start placing the ball. Then put something on the ball. Placement and consistency alone do a lot in a point.

I think it's useful to work on serve and volley in practice because even if you don't use it much or at all in a real match it will help you in other ways. One of these would be say coming in on one of your deep groundstokes during a match (more time to close on the net) . Also don't underestimate the suprise serve and volley approach ( once every 2 or 3 games or so) . You'd be surprised how often your opponents dump the return into the net, espescially on a slowish second serve where they are startled to see you come in and try to adjust their return to be lower at the last second.

5263 said:

Really depends on the quality of poaches that she is doing. Poaching just to poach is a big mistake. You poach when you are confident you will do some damage; otherwise it just hurts the court coverage.

I suggest you decide on SV or not based on what kind of returns you are getting from each returner. Some love a target.
Keep playing to win! Losing and using the excuse of trying to improve your game doesn't cut it for me, as that is what clinics and practice are for.

Click to expand...

Your bolded statement is true enough, but I figured everyone knew that already.

What I meant by "poachable ball" is a ball that you can (and should) punish with a poach.

S&V is a harder style to master than baseline play. I am becoming better now, as I have started playing more doubles. This is what I've had to do:

- Improve volley technique (including movement)

- Improve anticipation.

- Rather than flat bombs, use more kick serves that are strategically placed.

- Practice overheads!

- Train for exposive movement off split step

- Understand when to make what kind of volley (deep, drop, cross, dtl, etc)

I strongly believe S&V requires a higher level of athleticism than baseline play. You can hit a great serve down the middle, and follow it in, sure. If your opponent blocks it at medium pace to one side of the court (or into the alley in doubles), you need to be able to lunge, volley the ball, and recover for the next one immediately. It looks easy when the pros do it, but man, it takes its toll on the body and knees over time. It takes a lot of dedication and patience - on court and off court - to become good at this style of play, IMO.

Implementing a lot of these strategies really depend on your skill level. Of course given situations there is always an ideal shot execute but if you fundamentals aren't sound, it can make the situation worst. S&V is the ideal way to go in doubles but you have note if you volleys are up to par to handle the other guy's returns or if you serve is putting enough pressure to give you a nice ball to approach on. It might sound obvious but you have to extend on this and solve these problems before tacking on the bigger problem. I'm sure you pro had good intention but I think there are just somethings you have to tackle yourself. After all clinic coaches can only do so much

Cindy,

Jrod already said what I wanted to say.

To some extent I'm also going thru the same thing. That is, I know what I want to practice and what I want to bring into my games, but it's (psychologically?) very difficult to resist the playing to win desire. And then you also have partners to deal with. I so want to develop a top notch FH and BH, and I won't be able to do that if I continue to fear blasting the ball out. Oh well.

I guess the advice is to set your priorities (play to win at all cost vs play correct/quality tennis regardless). Eventually one will prevail over the other.

Yeah, I hear ya. I do.

Consider this, though.

I am playing Court One 3.5 doubles a lot now. Last spring, I played some 4.0. So I am seeing the high end of 3.5 doubles and the low end of 4.0. You know what?

No one else is S&V. The way it works is the server hits the serve (which is often not that great). The better players hit a return and follow it to net. The server, who stayed back, is now pinned. Whether she holds depends on whether she can lob or spank a groundstroke well enough to force a pop-up or a miss. Because of this, breaks of serve are common.

If I decide to try to win the race to the net by S&V, I will be seeing an even tougher next shot (approach volley) than if I stay back. It is infinitely easier to hit a good groundie or lob than a good approach volley. The best 3.5/4.0 opponents beat you off the ground, not with their volleys.

The tough nut to crack is this: You need a lot of things to succeed at the next level. Overhead. Good serve. Aggressive net play (poaching/faking/signaling). We range in age from 45 to 58 years old. I don't get why we are so focused on S&V, which is swinging from the highest branch, when developing some of these other skills are the low hanging fruit.

Which is why I am wondering whether there is a pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

Post #5... read it again.
Pay particular attention to the last few words of each sentence.
Get better?
Be the best you can NOW.
Which is it for you.

Cindysphinx said:

Which is why I am wondering whether there is a pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

Click to expand...

Yes, there is - but it is mainly the thrill of learning and doing something new in your favorite sport. If you also want to win you will have to put in a lot of hard work, while making sure you don't hurt yourself doing so.

My young jedi princess....
Oftentimes, the whole point of the exercise is the JOURNEY, not the final goal.

Cindy,

Again, I would say that you pay attention to yourself, your priorities. Don't pay attention to the level. There's a saying in my culture that the lid goes with the pot, so to speak. Your 3.5 s&v might be good enough for 3.5 groundstrokes from the other side. It probably comes down to who's more mastered at his own craft. (Best volleyer vs best passer scenerio).

As an anecdote, I know this guy who can't (he also admits) hit a decent groundstroke. He would not stay at the baseline at all. Just s&v, but his volley is excellent. He kills everybody in doubles with ease. There's no reason why you should have to master groundstroke, overhead, ect. before becoming a master of s&v, assuming that's what you want. I always think that recreational players are mostly lobsided players anyway. Funny, one of my doubles buddies often reminds me to hit in a certain pattern, telling me "avoid his FH. Go to his bh. It sucks. No one is blessed with both hands!" So far he's correct about the groups we play in. LOL.

A few months ago I watched a kind of interesting tournament match-up. I think they were 3.5 men. One team played pretty straightforward doubles, the other team (both Eastern Europeans) never hit a groundstroke- except the return of serve, and that was very peculiar.

To return serve, they stood about a foot behind the service line and, basically, half-volleyed the return to the server's side of the court. I thought it an interesting curiosity, but dismissed them as eccentrics with no talent.

Later on, I was surprised to learn they had won their division.

Anyway, I suppose the point is that good players who do not take charge of the net can, and often do, lose to lesser players who take over the net and volley well.

Bagumbawalla said:

Anyway, I suppose the point is that good players who do not take charge of the net can, and often do, lose to lesser players who take over the net and volley well.

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That's an oxymoron.

Plenty of basic strategy to counter returners who stand close to the service line. That 3.5 doubles team that lost was very inexperienced.

LeeD said:

Plenty of basic strategy to counter returners who stand close to the service line. That 3.5 doubles team that lost was very inexperienced.

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Please share. There's one returner like that in our group and I can't beat him easily.

I think the reality is that it takes a God awful amount of practice to learn how to win with advanced strokes and tactics. My guess would be that for every hour spent with a teaching pro, you should spend like 10 hours drilling those things you learned. Most people don't, but instead just play matches where they are constantly battling whether to use the strategy that they are most comfortable with and will lead to victory, or use match time to get repetitions on the strokes and tactics just learned, leading to possible loss of matches in the process.

Most guys who stand in to return serves rely on quickness, but don't have strong groundies, you know that.
So you serve into their bodies, usually mixing up spins, depth, pace, to each side.
Most tend to volley their returns, so you have preplanned poaches, the serve going usually to the softer returning side.
Most volleyers can return the high kicking serves, so you probe them with pure slices, to get some netted returns.
And if you can blast the easiest 115mph flat first into their bodies...the net lowest right there in doubles, you can win more than 70% of your first serve points.
Some returners can hit a short prep flat or topspin forehand. No biggie, just bounce it over their heads. Your twist/kick hits it's highest bounce height just inside the baseline, perfect.
And when you decide to try an ace, you don't need the first flat low percentage serve. You can just hit a topspin serve, with already disguise, but you aim for either the center line or the wide intersect. A molasses 80 mph serve, placedf well, can ace someone expecting a heavy body blow.
They WILL return a few successfully, which is what you want. You need to probe and then mentally bank their strong and weak returns, so you can apply what is needed at the right time.

Cindysphinx said:

No one else is S&V. The way it works is the server hits the serve (which is often not that great). The better players hit a return and follow it to net. The server, who stayed back, is now pinned. Whether she holds depends on whether she can lob or spank a groundstroke well enough to force a pop-up or a miss. Because of this, breaks of serve are common.

If I decide to try to win the race to the net by S&V, I will be seeing an even tougher next shot (approach volley) than if I stay back. It is infinitely easier to hit a good groundie or lob than a good approach volley. The best 3.5/4.0 opponents beat you off the ground, not with their volleys.

Click to expand...

I have very little experience playing doubles where serves are significantly weaker than returns as a rule. Or where servers fear to approach but returners do so frequently.

Keep practice and it will come.

The most efficient way is to improve serve. Once you have a good hard serve, it is easy to get a soft return from your opponents. You SERVE to create the opportunity for your partner to put away (VOLLEY) the ball.

If you serve softly, your partner might get killed at the net from the hard return of serve let alone volley successfully.

I like S&V but mentally I think it can be difficult for some. When you get beat by a nice passing shot, you feel helpless, burned, you probably don't even get a racket on the ball. For some reason many prefer to rally a bit longer and hitting a ball into the net cord or out by a few inches and losing the point isn't as mentally defeating. "Oh, I just barely lost that point!...but we were in it for 6 strokes!" seems more palatable than watching a ball zoom down the line completely out of reach.

Obviously against each opponent a player has to assess what is really happening with the overall score to decide whether to continue to S&V, do it more, do it less or adjust aspects of its execution. It definitely requires a bit of a leap of faith to implement it in a match. But that faith (confidence) should have been built by successfully using it in clinics and practice. If it hasn't after a year for your group, then yes, maybe more specific work on stroke mechanics and footwork are in order from your pro versus strategy.

Cindy,

i suggest you request to your pro (if he isn't already) to set up your drills in an open / closed / open pattern. By the sounds of things as someone pointed out earlier, the execution is likely the issue on many occasions not the tactic itself.

so a drill could work like this
OPEN : 4 player standard doubles set up, crosscourt rally for 2 strokes then play the point out. Bonus for volley winner or something like that.
this will give you an idea of the exercise and then show where it is breaking down
CLOSED : isolate the breakdown, tactics, movement, stroke execution and work on that. This is the area where you will need to show the improvement or going back to the open exercise will be pointless. This is likely the phase where you aren't spending enough time
OPEN : repeat initial activity and hopefully see improvement, then apply variations and counter-tactics

rinse & repeat...

I coach many ladies like yourself and see this same problem all the time, everyone is keen to learn and happy to practice it in training but they are too scared to risk losing in matches. They all have a phobia of "losing" the point and having their partner get upset. So they resort to defensive play and eventually lose to other teams who either play "correct" doubles or are better at playing the same defensive style.

Cindysphinx said:

.....I don't get why we are so focused on S&V, which is swinging from the highest branch, when developing some of these other skills are the low hanging fruit.

Which is why I am wondering whether there is a pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

Click to expand...

Cindy- You already recognize those aspects to your game that are within reach (i.e. realistic goals), so you are already thinking about process and not simply results. My question is how much time to you play tennis in a week? Then, what fraction of this is allocated to quality practice addressing your realistic goals and how much time do you allocate to playing a match?

If you're like most club players, I'd bet you play somewhere around 10-12 hours per week, max. Further, I'd guess approximately half this time is match play, leaving somewhere like 5-6 hours per week for focused practice. That's not a lot of practice time, particularly if you are looking for substantive improvement in all the areas you've mentioned.

If you could double your practice time, you'd probably start to observe some real improvement in your game. So how can you double your practice time? My initial post described a simple way to approach match play that accomplished this objective. Specifically, approach each match as an opportunity to practice a specific element or set of elements you feel needs work. Do not worry about the outcome of the match so much since the primary objective is to practice integrating specific elements into your game. It's a process. Don't be consumed with the result of the match such that you default to playing it safe. You need to use this time to advance your game, JUST LIKE PRACTICE.

As I mentioned, you may find that initially you may lose more matches than you win. Big deal. After a while you will start to execute these new elements. When that happens then you will find your winning percentage starts to increase.

I know this approach works because I've used it myself. When I started playing tennis again over 8 years ago (45 years old), I was a high 3.0 player. Today I am a low 4.5 player and still improving. By the way, I practice about 6 hours per week and play matches about 5 hours per week, on average. I also cross train 2-3 hours per week.

Just got back from my 7.0 mixed match.

Our opponents were a husband and wife team that plays nothing but mixed doubles together for the last 10 years. They were both backboards and were a well-oiled machine. The husband had crazy-good court anticipation and footwork and could overhead almost any lob. He had fast hands and played the net aggressively. How aggressively? The wife with her very weak serve actually served first in each set because he was so effective at net.

The first time I served, I stayed back, as I just couldn't get the ball past this guy. I was broken.

The second time I served, we played two back. This didn't work any better because my partner still couldn't get in the points and I was broken again.

The third time, I said "Screw it. I am going to S&V." It worked. The difference was that my moving forward meant the male opponent didn't have all day to get into position to do his damage. My partner picked off some points after my approach volley (!).

The fourth time, I also S&V'd, but we lost some spirited exchanges and I was broken, but we still won the match -3 and -3.

Which means, I guess, that you have to have the S&V tool in the box, and you can't be afraid to use it. And I guess it means my approach volleys are not as lame as I thought they were.

I guess I had better suck it up and keep working at this net transition game.

very interesting post

jrod said:

My feeling is that your objectives are misguided when you go to play a match. It seems that you place a greater emphasis on winning the match rather than improving your game. Whenever people place more emphasis on the short term objectives, the longer term goals seem to remain on the horizon. This is one of the primary reasons why club-level players have such a difficult time improving substantially.

My recommendation is to focus on the long term objective of improving your game. You will likely lose more as you progress, but at least you will see a progression.

Just my $0.02.

Click to expand...

I second, third, fourth, and possibly fifth this post.

LeeD said:

Most guys who stand in to return serves rely on quickness, but don't have strong groundies, you know that.
So you serve into their bodies, usually mixing up spins, depth, pace, to each side.
Most tend to volley their returns, so you have preplanned poaches, the serve going usually to the softer returning side.
Most volleyers can return the high kicking serves, so you probe them with pure slices, to get some netted returns.
And if you can blast the easiest 115mph flat first into their bodies...the net lowest right there in doubles, you can win more than 70% of your first serve points.
Some returners can hit a short prep flat or topspin forehand. No biggie, just bounce it over their heads. Your twist/kick hits it's highest bounce height just inside the baseline, perfect.
And when you decide to try an ace, you don't need the first flat low percentage serve. You can just hit a topspin serve, with already disguise, but you aim for either the center line or the wide intersect. A molasses 80 mph serve, placedf well, can ace someone expecting a heavy body blow.
They WILL return a few successfully, which is what you want. You need to probe and then mentally bank their strong and weak returns, so you can apply what is needed at the right time.

Click to expand...

LOL, good advice, but, dude, you're talking about a totally different game than the OP. She is playing 3.5-4.0 women's doubles. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 115 mph serves into the body or 80 mph topspin serves at the lines aren't really much of an option. You're talking about at least 5.0 level men's play and near pro women's before players have that type of service arsenal.

When I play competitively, I S&V on pretty much every single serve in Doubles (unlike many of my opponents and/or partners). I miss probably 50% of my first volleys regardless of how good or bad the return is. If I can win free points on the serve, then I hold. If the returners can get a fair amount of returns past my net man, then I get broke.

I'm one of the players who has more all-court skills and very mobile in the league, yet I'm a mediocre doubles player at best when it comes to W/L. That's the way it goes. You either put the time in to drill, or you suffer the consequences.

Cindysphinx said:

If I decide to try to win the race to the net by S&V, I will be seeing an even tougher next shot (approach volley) than if I stay back. It is infinitely easier to hit a good groundie or lob than a good approach volley. The best 3.5/4.0 opponents beat you off the ground, not with their volleys.

The tough nut to crack is this: You need a lot of things to succeed at the next level. Overhead. Good serve. Aggressive net play (poaching/faking/signaling). We range in age from 45 to 58 years old. I don't get why we are so focused on S&V, which is swinging from the highest branch, when developing some of these other skills are the low hanging fruit.

Click to expand...

Overhead, good serve, aggressive net play all seem to me to be things that will benefit a S&V game. An overhead to handle the lobs that aren't quite perfect, a good serve (pace or placement) to come in behind and aggressive net play (wanting to take the volley).

Cindysphinx said:

Just got back from my 7.0 mixed match.

The third time, I said "Screw it. I am going to S&V." It worked. The difference was that my moving forward meant the male opponent didn't have all day to get into position to do his damage. My partner picked off some points after my approach volley (!).

The fourth time, I also S&V'd, but we lost some spirited exchanges and I was broken, but we still won the match -3 and -3.

Which means, I guess, that you have to have the S&V tool in the box, and you can't be afraid to use it. And I guess it means my approach volleys are not as lame as I thought they were.

I guess I had better suck it up and keep working at this net transition game.

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That's awesome (you probably picked up more than you thought from the clinic practice!) and kind of fits with what I was thinking of posting today. I think to S&V well you have to "want the ball"...kind of like in basketball.

My son is playing 8-10 basketball. He loves basketball but just turned 8. He plays defense okay but on offense it is obvious he does not want the ball! Instead of moving around looking for the ball and thinking of good things that he will do with it like shoot, make a good pass or dribble, he is thinking of the bad things. He figures his shot is going to get blocked or the ball will get stolen...and quick! For the most part he's not wrong, he's completely out sized and out skilled right now compared to the 10 year olds, but you can see his attitude plain as day with the look on his face and the half-hearted way he moves around his defender hoping no one throws him the ball.

I know last spring there were times at the net and approaching the net I was hoping like heck the opponent would try to pass me and hit it out or lob me. I really did not want him to hit it to me! I did my best to bluff, but just didn't feel like I had the consistent volley skills I needed. In fact in the fall league I basically lost a tiebreak by flubbing and easy volley at the net, even though I had improved quite a bit by then. It wasn't the final point but would have pretty much sealed the deal for us and stuck in my mind.

So anyway, I've now taken clinics focused specifically on the volley and feel like I've improved by leaps and bounds. Now I actively look for opportunities to come in and volley in singles and my doubles game has improved tremendously.

Like I said above, I think you probably picked up more than you thought from your clinics and when you went in to S&V with the nothing to lose attitude in this last match it worked for you. Instead of tentatively trying it once in a while, you went into it thinking, "We are losing playing this other way, so how can I make this work?" I still think S&V is mentally hard, b/c who likes seeing themselves dump a ball into the net from 10 feet away, or botch a seemingly easy overhead (which is anything but) but it's just something that is going to happen a certain % of the time. As long as the overall % breaks your way, that's what we need to focus on to keep the "want the ball" attitude.

Amateur sports psychologist athiker. :???:

listen to jrod

jrod said:

If you're like most club players, I'd bet you play somewhere around 10-12 hours per week, max. Further, I'd guess approximately half this time is match play, leaving somewhere like 5-6 hours per week for focused practice. That's not a lot of practice time, particularly if you are looking for substantive improvement in all the areas you've mentioned.

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Yeah, practice is what I need, for sure.

My typical tennis week is a 2-hour doubles clinic, a 60-90-minute private or semi-private lesson for groundstrokes, and a 2-hour practice match with friends. I will have 1-2 league matches also. So the practice situation is much worse than you thought!

Where's the actual practice? Hey, it's winter and court time is $43 an hour. And when it warms up enough to play outside, I will have to contend with the fact that practicing more will take a toll on my knees.

Now, I could play fewer matches and put that time into practice. Setting aside the issue of finding a suitable practice partner -- a huge problem -- I don't really want to do that. I'm trying to meet my goal of making 4.0, and it won't happen unless I play league matches.

So I gotta learn to S&V in the doubles clinic and in my weekly practice match. The change I will make is that I will S&V on every single point in these practice matches rather than working on other things.

It's mentally hard, though. You should see the smirks on my friends' faces when they get me to miss my approach or get a lob past me.

Cindysphinx said:

....................

The third time, I said "Screw it. I am going to S&V." It worked. The difference was that my moving forward meant the male opponent didn't have all day to get into position to do his damage. My partner picked off some points after my approach volley (!).

The fourth time, I also S&V'd, but we lost some spirited exchanges and I was broken, but we still won the match -3 and -3.

..................

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Cindy- How do you think you would have reacted if your attempts to S&V failed? Would you have resorted to playing within your comfort zone?

It seems to me that in this case, you were willing to experiment only when your initial strategy failed to work. You made a conscious decision to stretch and try something new, and it happened to work that day. Most days it might not work though. When this happens, the vast majority of players retreat to their comfort zone and play within themselves. This has the unfortunate consequence of preserving the status quo.

You MUST be willing to play outside your comfort zone irrespective of whether or not it is winning you points/games/matches. If you remain focused solely on winning, you will find substantive progress difficult to achieve, particularly if you have limited time allocated to practicing.

I guess I had better suck it up and keep working at this net transition game.

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Yep, regardless as to whether or not it is winning you points. The win's will come as a result of allowing your game to progress.

Cindysphinx said:

....
It's mentally hard, though. You should see the smirks on my friends' faces when they get me to miss my approach or get a lob past me.

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Keep at it. Those smirks will eventually morph into looks of astonishment and awe as you progress....and eventually they will have this pathetic look of abandonment as you steadily improve and move up to 4.0, 4.5, ....

J R B ....
You can tone it down or up according to your skills. A 3.5 woman standing in no man's land to return serve will be beat by a spinning body blow at 55mph. And she will not touch a 65mph topspin serve on the center line or the alley intersects.
OTOH, if you're playing 5.5 mens, you'd better increase the ball speed by 15, and add more spin to each shot.....:shock::shock:
But you did nail the the basic premise of skill level and shot selection.

Cindysphinx said:

Yeah, practice is what I need, for sure.

a 60-90-minute private or semi-private lesson for groundstrokes,

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use that time to exclusively serve and volley ,return ,come in hit first volley. practice overhead. yes you need better groundstrokes according to your posts but your serve and volley and overhead are below your ground strokes. focus on them. if you play doubles "right" you dont hit many groundstrokes.

Huh..." if you play doubles right, you don't hit many groundstrokes"
Me, I hit groundies every time I return serve. Even as a netcharger, every chip second serve return, it's really a groundie, not a volley. And when the opposition successfully lobs over me or my partner, it starts with a groundstroke.
And when the serve comes back hard, deep, and low, it's a groundie rally to stay in the point.

a serve is not a groundy. a volley is not a groundy, when your partner returns most of your shots are not groundys . so.... serving volleying return of serve partner, servers partner in those positions most of your strokes are not groundies. to return serve you hit a groundy. to me if you are taking the net and not playing back you dont hit many groundies. i could be wrong

Cindysphinx said:

So I gotta learn to S&V in the doubles clinic and in my weekly practice match. The change I will make is that I will S&V on every single point in these practice matches rather than working on other things.

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Actually, you gotta learn to S&V during real live matches. This is what found, anyway.

Although you can try to hone the timing and techniques in practice sessions, the best way to learn how to S&V during matchplay is to... S&V during matchplay. It takes longer and is much harder to learn to do well than to learn to win from the baseline and you willl lose (crash and burn kind of lose sometimes) a LOT before you start winning.

So, like other posters have mentioned, it really comes down to a choice of priorities. Good luck!

I find often, more often than not, when I play against equal or superior players, me S/V, they tend to hit their best returns right off the bat. If I continue S/V, their returns get progressively weaker or less consistent, and I can hang in there knowing I have a forgetful mind.
Very few 5.5's can hit a really strong return over and over again. Maybe it's boredom, maybe it's lackadaisical, maybe it's just not possible.
I mean, their first few returns are tops clearing the net by maybe a foot, then landing near the baseline, within 2' of the sidelines. Then it falters.
So hang in there, let them hit their great returns. YOU, just forget about it. Keep moving in and see. They gotta play every point, just like you.
Adjust the returns to your level of play.

J_R_B said:

LOL, good advice, but, dude, you're talking about a totally different game than the OP. She is playing 3.5-4.0 women's doubles. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 115 mph serves into the body or 80 mph topspin serves at the lines aren't really much of an option. You're talking about at least 5.0 level men's play and near pro women's before players have that type of service arsenal.

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Are you kidding me? 115 mph serves is a TOP PRO for the women's game. That's faster than Serena's average 1st serve speed! LOL

OK, this reaction is interesting. I'm hearing that I must S&V, that I must use it as my default, that I must use it in real matches immediately, and that if it doesn't work during the real match, I must keep doing it anyway.

This doesn't make sense to me. Why is S&V any different from any other strategy? If I decide to hit moonballs and my opponents are killing my moonballs, I would stop hitting moonballs. I would not stubbornly continue to hit them, especially once my partner said, "Dang, girl. Maybe you'd better hit drives instead."

Well, with S&V, it is possible to get off to a bad start, and it is possible that your opponents can be better at beating you at that strategy than you are in executing it. So if you are in a match and you S&V four times and are broken at love, doesn't this mean that (1) you should put the S&V back on the shelf for match play until you get better, and (2) and you had better not S&V anymore against those opponents and try something else?

You know, I had a recent match in which my female partner was S&V on her serves. She was broken every time. Her S&V is not horrible by any means. For whatever reason, she was either missing the approach volley or was hitting something so weak that our opponents could exploit it. Yeah, she had some spectacular winners, but the ratio of winners to errors was not working in our favor during any of our service or return games.

We lost the first set, and our opponents had four games in the second. My partner was serving. She S&V's and soon it was love-30. I walked back and said something like, "OK, we're six points away from losing the match. We have to find a way to keep the ball in play. We have better groundstrokes than these players, and if we can make them play we might climb back into this match. Let's just keep it in play."

My partner said, "No, I think we need to play aggressively. If we just hit the ball back, they are going to punish us." So she came in, was broken, and we lost the match.

Really, I think this was a mistake. We had already tried an aggressive strategy for a set and a half and it wasn't working. Why continue to have faith in it that it will suddenly start to work?

xFullCourtTenniSx said:

Are you kidding me? 115 mph serves is a TOP PRO for the women's game. That's faster than Serena's average 1st serve speed! LOL

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Right, those are pro numbers for women, but not all players with those numbers will be top pros. We've all seen many players with the tools but not the mental game or consistency or whatever to make it to the top. My point was that if you are serving like that in the women's game, you are going to be somewhere near the pro level whether you've actually made it as a pro or not.

J_R_B said:

Right, those are pro numbers for women, but not all players with those numbers will be top pros. We've all seen many players with the tools but not the mental game or consistency or whatever to make it to the top. My point was that if you are serving like that in the women's game, you are going to be somewhere near the pro level whether you've actually made it as a pro or not.

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Just in case anyone is confused . . .

We are talking 3.5 women's doubles with women who are pushing 50 or already there. Nobody is firing a cannon. Most women I play with have trouble hitting any serve that forces me to hit a BH if I am playing the deuce court.

So let's forget all the talk about 115 mph serves and body serving people and all of that. There are a lot of opponents who can and will tee off on my serve unless I really give it everything I have.

Bottom line: The mission is to learn to hit my best serve every time and come in behind it no matter how well the return is spanked, knowing that my peers/opponents are very lobby so I have to be ready to reverse gears and so cannot go barreling into the net at full speed.

It's a tough mission.

Cindysphinx said:

OK, this reaction is interesting. I'm hearing that I must S&V, that I must use it as my default, that I must use it in real matches immediately, and that if it doesn't work during the real match, I must keep doing it anyway.

.....

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You are convolving multiple messages here Cindy. In my case, you are taking my advice too literally. You decide what you need to work on. Then stick with it. It doesn't matter what it is, as long as you continue to work on it in practice and during matches. If you abandon it in matches because it isn't working, you are aren't putting in the hard miles and you may likely never get it to the point where you can use it to your advantage.

Simple message. Simple process. Not so simple to do though. You need to make a hard choice on which is more important: your match record or your tennis skills?