Gaining Weight...

nadalfan! · Feb 2, 2010

I'm interested in putting on some pounds of muscle. I'm currently 16, 5'10, and about 142 pounds. I wanna just get to about 150 and I think that should be enough. I am doing p90x right now but I cant really follow the nutrition guide as there are a bunch of things on there that I do not have in my house. However, I do like to eat a lot of protein and after each workout, I take an isopure shake (0 carbs, 50g of protein). My problem is that I am in the 4th week of p90x and I've been killing myself and I haven't really had a change in weight. I'm pretty ok and I would say I am under 10% body fat because I can see my upper abs and a little bit of my lower abs. I just want to gain some good muscle and I think now is the best time to do it because I do not play as much tennis. I know everyone says that it takes a long time but my p90x program finishes on March 28th and I want to be about 150 lbs by then... Can anyone help me out?

Vyse · Feb 2, 2010

Don't you start eating more on p90x in the 3rd stage. I'd stick with that. You should be fine.

yemenmocha · Feb 2, 2010

Pizza, fried mozz. sticks, and beer will help add those pounds.

Itagaki · Feb 2, 2010

nadalfan! said:
I'm interested in putting on some pounds of muscle. I'm currently 16, 5'10, and about 142 pounds. I wanna just get to about 150 and I think that should be enough. I am doing p90x right now but I cant really follow the nutrition guide as there are a bunch of things on there that I do not have in my house. However, I do like to eat a lot of protein and after each workout, I take an isopure shake (0 carbs, 50g of protein). My problem is that I am in the 4th week of p90x and I've been killing myself and I haven't really had a change in weight. I'm pretty ok and I would say I am under 10% body fat because I can see my upper abs and a little bit of my lower abs. I just want to gain some good muscle and I think now is the best time to do it because I do not play as much tennis. I know everyone says that it takes a long time but my p90x program finishes on March 28th and I want to be about 150 lbs by then... Can anyone help me out?

start drinking milk

lots of it

http://stronglifts.com/gomad-milk-squats-gallon-gain-weight/

granted you dont necessarily have to take it as overboard as that article suggests

LeeD · Feb 2, 2010

Setting a weight goal while still growing is unrealistic and can be unhealthy.
Why 150? Why not 165 lbs.?
What's wrong with 142?
Until I hit 35 years of age, at 5'11", I was under 135. Nobody kicked sand in my face, nobody bothered with my weight because I could surf, ride motocross and roadracers, waterski jump, ski, and play tennis all at the just under pro levels.
Weight is something you have in your mind. Why not 205lbs.?

r2473 · Feb 2, 2010

LeeD said:
Until I hit 35 years of age, at 5'11", I was under 135. Nobody kicked sand in my face, nobody bothered with my weight because I could surf, ride motocross and roadracers, waterski jump, ski, and play tennis all at the just under pro levels.

Wow. All these sports just under pro level?

Does this mean you played challengers and futures or does this mean you were a top 10 D1 player?

Vyse · Feb 2, 2010

Itagaki said:
start drinking milk

lots of it

http://stronglifts.com/gomad-milk-squats-gallon-gain-weight/

granted you dont necessarily have to take it as overboard as that article suggests

That seems excessive. Wow.

nadalfan! · Feb 2, 2010

LeeD said:
Setting a weight goal while still growing is unrealistic and can be unhealthy.
Why 150? Why not 165 lbs.?
What's wrong with 142?
Until I hit 35 years of age, at 5'11", I was under 135. Nobody kicked sand in my face, nobody bothered with my weight because I could surf, ride motocross and roadracers, waterski jump, ski, and play tennis all at the just under pro levels.
Weight is something you have in your mind. Why not 205lbs.?

Well I'm just looking at a relative target weight. 20 pounds of muscle on me is not really gonna help me out and it would take longer than about 10 pounds of muscle. If you look at some pro's that are 5'10 you will see that they are in the 150-160 range. I'm not trying to be exactly like them but I still wanna be a consistent 150.

coyfish · Feb 2, 2010

Gaining weight is simple. You just have to eat. Don't bother drinking protein shakes aside from a post workout shake. There is no need when you are gaining size. Food is much better than supplements. Just keep your meals nice and balanced and watch the scale. You want to slowly and consistantly set goals for each week.

How much you need to eat / how much fat you gain is a result of your metabolism and activity levels.

You are young and active. Don't be afriad to "get fat." That doesn't necessarily mean eat big macs all day. But rather don't be afraid to eat big. I have personally trained kids at college and they don't gain size because they are so conscerned about losing their abs that they work out for months without change.

When I was bulking from a skinny high schooler I had to eat 7500 calories a day just to gain size. That was thanks to my fast metabolism. So don't be afriad to eat ! The cleaner you do it . . . obviosly the leaner you will be when you finish.

And lastly it takes time. You are trying to rush things which isn't a good idea. My advice would be finish your p90x and do another course but focus on eating more. I think p90x is good for people at your age. It has aspects focusing on agility and flexibility which are important when you are still growing. Also you don't want to be squatting 400 lbs at your age. P90x is pretty much all bodyweight exersizes.

nadalfan! · Feb 2, 2010

coyfish said:
Gaining weight is simple. You just have to eat. Don't bother drinking protein shakes aside from a post workout shake. There is no need when you are gaining size. Food is much better than supplements. Just keep your meals nice and balanced and watch the scale. You want to slowly and consistantly set goals for each week.

How much you need to eat / how much fat you gain is a result of your metabolism and activity levels.

You are young and active. Don't be afriad to "get fat." That doesn't necessarily mean eat big macs all day. But rather don't be afraid to eat big. I have personally trained kids at college and they don't gain size because they are so conscerned about losing their abs that they work out for months without change.

When I was bulking from a skinny high schooler I had to eat 7500 calories a day just to gain size. That was thanks to my fast metabolism. So don't be afriad to eat ! The cleaner you do it . . . obviosly the leaner you will be when you finish.

And lastly it takes time. You are trying to rush things which isn't a good idea. My advice would be finish your p90x and do another course but focus on eating more. I think p90x is good for people at your age. It has aspects focusing on agility and flexibility which are important when you are still growing. Also you don't want to be squatting 400 lbs at your age. P90x is pretty much all bodyweight exersizes.

I see p90x as more of a fat shredder than a muscle bulker. If you see the infomercials, the people at the start of the program were obese where I am not and would like to gain weight instead of lose it...

charliefedererer · Feb 2, 2010

nadalfan! said:
I see p90x as more of a fat shredder than a muscle bulker. If you see the infomercials, the people at the start of the program were obese where I am not and would like to gain weight instead of lose it...

Exactly.

The P90x program is largely to get a good cardiovascular workout and get in general more fit; indeed much more fit for those who had not been working out before.

But there is only one way to really add serious muscle weight. And that is to lift heavy weight, near one's maximum, for several sets of about 5 repetitions a set. Thus doing squats, bench presses, etc. will build serious muscle weight. But that muscle building process starts slow (because you aren't lifting that heavy at first) and takes months to make significant gains in muscle weight, with gains in strength before gains in weight (and that is actually ideal for tennis). Indeed most tennis players never get, or don't want to get impressive weight gains. That their season starts with them stronger is more important and better than heavier.

So of course the big question, since you are posting on a tennis forum, is do you really want to add that much weight? Getting somewhat heavier with muscle weight from extensive months of heavy lifting only might be good for your game, and you'll have to carry that extra weight around. Look at how Roddick dropped some weight last year to get more fit. Cilic is a stick, but strong. Rafa and Murray are strong, look like they've been lifting, but certainly are not carrying any extra weight.

So I would think you have actually done yourself a world of good with your P90x efforts to get in better tennis shape. You could substitute a real weightlifting routine 3 days a week instead of your P90x upper body routines, and still do the P90x cardiovascular or HIIT (high intensity interval training) on the nonlifting days. (But do this intensive level of training only if you are only playing much less tennis now and it is still your offseason.)

Itagaki · Feb 2, 2010

Vyse said:
That seems excessive. Wow.

excessive but effective for weight gain

though its probably targeted more towards those skinny people that need 5000+ calories to gain any weight

tricky · Feb 2, 2010

Itagaki said:
start drinking milk

lots of it

http://stronglifts.com/gomad-milk-squats-gallon-gain-weight/

granted you dont necessarily have to take it as overboard as that article suggests

This has worked pretty much since the dawn of man. Which was about 50 years ago. But, yeah, this is a time tested way to gain mass.

If you're interested in doing the milk gainer diet "Anaconda Protocol"-style (go crazy yo!!

, you can try something like this:

1) 4 glasses of milk about 30-45 minutes prior to workout.
2) 1 glass of milk about 15-20 minutes out
3) 1 glass of milk about 5 minutes out
4) 2 glasses of milk about 10 minutes into routine.

That adds up to half a gallon, or about 1200 calories of whole fat milk. That's also 2 quarts of fluid in your body. If you can actually do this without gastric distress, you'll enjoy a really, really strong nutrient partitioning effect. You'll feel really swole during the workout and your weight will go up quickly without getting a lot of fat.

jman · Feb 3, 2010

nadalfan! said:
I see p90x as more of a fat shredder than a muscle bulker. If you see the infomercials, the people at the start of the program were obese where I am not and would like to gain weight instead of lose it...

Hey, why not follow p90x except change the reps and weight you use compared to what they do (i guess you need gym equipment). So, if you want to bulk up, follow their routine with some added weight and do minimal reps.

BTW i'm 5'10" and aiming between 170-177lbs with about 10% body fat. I'm so close to my goal

mike53 · Feb 3, 2010

nadalfan! said:
I just want to gain some good muscle and I think now is the best time to do it because I do not play as much tennis. I know everyone says that it takes a long time but my p90x program finishes on March 28th and I want to be about 150 lbs by then... Can anyone help me out?

Muscle mass gains for someone your age are very possible but the timing is completely unpredictable. If you are lifting heavy when the time is right, you can easily gain 3-5lbs in a short period, but there is no way to know exactly when that time will be. The key is to be doing an ongoing program of progressive overload training so you can take advantage when the time is right and get the muscle/strength gains you want.

T Woody · Feb 3, 2010

mike53 said:
Muscle mass gains for someone your age are very possible but the timing is completely unpredictable. If you are lifting heavy when the time is right, you can easily gain 3-5lbs in a short period, but there is no way to know exactly when that time will be. The key is to be doing an ongoing program of progressive overload training so you can take advantage when the time is right and get the muscle/strength gains you want.

What do you mean 'the timing is completely unpredictable'? If you use a well programmed heavy lifting routine and eat a ton of food, it's extremely predictable.

tricky · Feb 3, 2010

What do you mean 'the timing is completely unpredictable'?

Trying to gain weight as a teenager can be unpredictable. You have growth spurts and plus levels of test. But you also have very high levels of metabolism.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

T Woody said:
What do you mean 'the timing is completely unpredictable'? If you use a well programmed heavy lifting routine and eat a ton of food, it's extremely predictable.

He didn't word it very well but I assumed he was talking about how everyone responds differently. Depending on your bodytype / metabolism / intensity / diet . . .

Thats true but I wouldn't call it unpredictable. I gained a ****load of muscle weight from HS to college. About 40 lbs in just under 2 years. I was eating about 7000 calories a day and lifting heavy. I simply watched the scale and set goals. Now im at 5"10, 168, 8% BF. Have been maintaining for 2 years and couldn't be happier with my results.

I would just stop getting bogged down on how to bulk . . . AND JUST DO IT! Bottom line is you eat. That is all there is to it. Avoid any extreme crap like drinking 10 glasses of milk a day (lol). Anything out of balance will most likely have negative results. Don't forget the carbs. They are your friend. Screw the protein shakes. A post workout shake is fine but when your bulking there is no need. You can get all the protein you need through the food you eat. Not to mention food protein is much better than powder.

mike53 · Feb 3, 2010

T Woody said:
What do you mean 'the timing is completely unpredictable'? If you use a well programmed heavy lifting routine and eat a ton of food, it's extremely predictable.

Serum/free T in a 16yo may be variable and not easily scheduled

Djokovicfan4life · Feb 3, 2010

Vyse said:
That seems excessive. Wow.

It's not as crazy as it sounds. I'm a shade above 200 and I've been drinking a 1/2-full gallon per day (depends on the day, I pretty much drink as much as possible while still eating plenty) and I haven't morphed into a mega fatty or anything. I've gained about 8 lbs over 2 months and I think that's about right for me.

And to the OP, no offense, but you chose a terrible program for bulking. You want to pack on some mass? Try this and make sure you're eating in a caloric surplus. At your age and weight you'll need a lot of food to grow, or at least grow more than your natural growth as a teen would allow.

http://www.startingstrength.net/workouts/

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

Djokovicfan4life said:
It's not as crazy as it sounds. I'm a shade above 200 and I've been drinking a 1/2-full gallon per day (depends on the day, I pretty much drink as much as possible while still eating plenty) and I haven't morphed into a mega fatty or anything. I've gained about 8 lbs over 2 months and I think that's about right for me.

And to the OP, no offense, but you chose a terrible program for bulking. You want to pack on some mass? Try this and make sure you're eating in a caloric surplus. At your age and weight you'll need a lot of food to grow, or at least grow more than your natural growth as a teen would allow.

http://www.startingstrength.net/workouts/

Hes 16. Its not a good idea to lift like that while your still growing significantly. Going heavy like that is a good way to affect growth / flexibility down the road.

Itagaki · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
Hes 16. Its not a good idea to lift like that while your still growing significantly. Going heavy like that is a good way to affect growth / flexibility down the road.

Myth

10 char

tricky · Feb 3, 2010

However, I should say that if you lift heavy (5x5 or ballistic/PL work), you want to have a good foundation. 5x5 isn't really meant for the novice lifter. If you're a novice lifter, you want to get acquainted with basic lifting technique and very moderate weights, until your technique is reasonably good.

In addition, your ligaments/tendons get stronger primarily through frequency and volume. In other words, work rate. And that is important as you start lifting heavy. It also helps you avoid injuries playing tennis.

Djokovicfan4life · Feb 3, 2010

tricky said:
However, I should say that if you lift heavy (5x5 or ballistic/PL work), you want to have a good foundation. 5x5 isn't really meant for the novice lifter. If you're a novice lifter, you want to get acquainted with basic lifting technique and very moderate weights, until your technique is reasonably good.

In addition, your ligaments/tendons get stronger primarily through frequency and volume. In other words, work rate. And that is important as you start lifting heavy. It also helps you avoid injuries playing tennis.

Starting Strength is 3x5 and ideally it starts well enough below your 5 rep max. It's designed with beginners in mind.

Djokovicfan4life · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
Hes 16. Its not a good idea to lift like that while your still growing significantly. Going heavy like that is a good way to affect growth / flexibility down the road.

As Itagaki pointed out, that's a myth. I hope you don't believe that light weight/high reps is for "teh toning" as well.

Itagaki · Feb 3, 2010

Djokovicfan4life said:
Starting Strength is 3x5 and ideally it starts well enough below your 5 rep max. It's designed with beginners in mind.

Even Stronglifts 5x5 is perfectly fine for novice lifters

it stipulates that one should start with just the bar on all the barbell exercises

the site also lists how to do just about every exercises properly and such, so you can focus on technique as you very slowly add weight every workout

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

Djokovicfan4life said:
As Itagaki pointed out, that's a myth. I hope you don't believe that light weight/high reps is for "teh toning" as well.

Its a myth in the sense that lifting doesn't cause you to be short. Because that is a result of hormones. But whats not a myth is the fact that any improper form could lead to growth plate damage which is serious. At 16 the op should be okay but lifting heavy at a very young age isn't a good idea. Why take that risk.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

Djokovicfan4life said:
Starting Strength is 3x5 and ideally it starts well enough below your 5 rep max. It's designed with beginners in mind.

I don't know where you get your info but thats not the best advice. Tricky is right. When your a beginner its a good idea to start with bodyweight exercises and lighter routines. That way your brain and your body get accustomed to the stress / form. When you're just starting to work out your body will respond quickly and you will gain strength at a fast rate. This will obviosly plateau. Its good to do a couple full body routines without pushing yourself TOO hard at first. Then as you learn the exercises you can start doing splits and increase the intensity.

r2473 · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
I gained a ****load of muscle weight from HS to college. About 40 lbs in just under 2 years.

That's amazing!!!

It is a documented fact that Park gained AT MOST 41 pounds of MUSCLE in his entire career (probably slightly less). Even at this, I don't think you even won the bodybuilding competition you entered. (Park would have obviously just embarrassed himself if he had shown up in his 1951 form).

Look about half-way down the page of this article. It is preceded by a table (Table 1) of weights of bodybuilding champions.

http://www.weightrainer.net/potential.html

I quote:

"Comparing these bodyweights to population averages shows that these champions carry 24-26% more lean body mass than the average person of their height and bone structure.

A large man such as Reg Park would carry 38-41 pounds more muscle than his average, non-weight training counterpart. A smaller structured man, such as 2006 WNBF World Champion Jon Harris, would carry about 31-34 pounds more muscle than an average, non-weight training man of his height and structure. It is also interesting to note that the absolute level of muscle mass carried by modern drug-tested bodybuilders is not statistically greater than that carried by bodybuilders from the pre-drug era - though modern bodybuilders compete at much lower body fat levels."

Jon Harris is 5' - 7.5"

http://www.wnbf.net/history.html

At the bottom of the article I posted, the author issues this challenge:

"If you are a bodybuilder or strength athlete having verifiable statistics in excess of what the equations of this article predict and have competed in a drug-tested bodybuilding contest then, please, contact me and I'll include the information in an ongoing statistical analysis - your name will be withheld upon request. This invitation has been open since this article was first posted (in early 2007 and dating back through it's predecessors to 2000) and remains so. To those who have contributed I'd like to thank you here. I appreciate your honesty and even bravery ...if that's the right word."

At your height, you would qualify. Contact Casey. Let him know what you have achieved.

Incidentally, you are still FAR behind this TT poster. He has gained about 75 pounds of muscle:

TearSNFX said:
I am 5' 8" I weigh 235 pounds with 7~10% body fat.

T Woody · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
I don't know where you get your info but thats not the best advice. Tricky is right. When your a beginner its a good idea to start with bodyweight exercises and lighter routines. That way your brain and your body get accustomed to the stress / form.

Seriously? You could do 1000 air squats a day for a month and that "stress" would not prepare either your brain or your body to squat any reasonable amount of weight for a set of 5. Your perfect air squat form would go to hell immediately. You're right in the sense that not everybody should put themselves through the same joint stress as a professional powerlifter, but working up to a solid squat of 1.5x bodyweight for a few reps will only do good things for your overall health. Please don't try to scare these kids away from lifting. A 16 year old is a perfect trainee. They recover lightning quick, pump out test like crazy, and have a lot of energy to train and eat. If heavy squatting injured 16 year olds, the NFL would be a much different game.

OP, buy and read Starting Strength. Any 16 year old kid with some sense and half a brain can learn how to deadlift, squat, and overhead press properly with this book.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

T Woody said:
Seriously? You could do 1000 air squats a day for a month and that "stress" would not prepare either your brain or your body to squat any reasonable amount of weight for a set of 5. Your perfect air squat form would go to hell immediately. You're right in the sense that not everybody should put themselves through the same joint stress as a professional powerlifter, but working up to a solid squat of 1.5x bodyweight for a few reps will only do good things for your overall health. Please don't try to scare these kids away from lifting. A 16 year old is a perfect trainee. They recover lightning quick, pump out test like crazy, and have a lot of energy to train and eat. If heavy squatting injured 16 year olds, the NFL would be a much different game.

OP, buy and read Starting Strength. Any 16 year old kid with some sense and half a brain can learn how to deadlift, squat, and overhead press properly with this book.

You are taking what im saying out of context. Use some reason . . . I have been mentioning that lifting very heavy isn't good for beginners. I never said you should do 1000 air squats. I said do bodyweight exersizes (push ups, pull ups, dips, leg raises, etc.) to start off as well as light weight exersizes. You dont want to walk into the gym and hurt yourself trying to do heavy squats in your first couple weeks of working out. There is no need or benefit. When you just start working out your muscles adapt at higher than normal rates which means you can get away with lighter full body workouts more frequently.

What does doing heavy squats have to do with hte NFL. Most kid start lifting heavy at 17-18 years which is a good place to start. The young fresh / sophmores that stand out in HS football are QB's or kids that can catch / run fast. Not the huge kids that block and squat 5000 lbs at 13 years old.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

r2473 said:
That's amazing!!!

It is a documented fact that Park gained AT MOST 41 pounds of MUSCLE in his entire career (probably slightly less). Even at this, I don't think you even won the bodybuilding competition you entered. (Park would have obviously just embarrassed himself if he had shown up in his 1951 form).

Look about half-way down the page of this article. It is preceded by a table (Table 1) of weights of bodybuilding champions.

http://www.weightrainer.net/potential.html

I quote:

"Comparing these bodyweights to population averages shows that these champions carry 24-26% more lean body mass than the average person of their height and bone structure.

A large man such as Reg Park would carry 38-41 pounds more muscle than his average, non-weight training counterpart. A smaller structured man, such as 2006 WNBF World Champion Jon Harris, would carry about 31-34 pounds more muscle than an average, non-weight training man of his height and structure. It is also interesting to note that the absolute level of muscle mass carried by modern drug-tested bodybuilders is not statistically greater than that carried by bodybuilders from the pre-drug era - though modern bodybuilders compete at much lower body fat levels."

Jon Harris is 5' - 7.5"

http://www.wnbf.net/history.html

At the bottom of the article I posted, the author issues this challenge:

"If you are a bodybuilder or strength athlete having verifiable statistics in excess of what the equations of this article predict and have competed in a drug-tested bodybuilding contest then, please, contact me and I'll include the information in an ongoing statistical analysis - your name will be withheld upon request. This invitation has been open since this article was first posted (in early 2007 and dating back through it's predecessors to 2000) and remains so. To those who have contributed I'd like to thank you here. I appreciate your honesty and even bravery ...if that's the right word."

At your height, you would qualify. Contact Casey. Let him know what you have achieved.

Incidentally, you are still FAR behind this TT poster. He has gained about 75 pounds of muscle:

Thanks for the complement. You actually already posted this same article in another thread I was entangled in. I think it was slicendicers failed workout plan where I told my story. I am an ectomorph so I was most likely smaller than parks was when he started. And you are right. I didn't win the competition I was in. It was a college thing and I was stuck between weight classes so I had to go up to the 180's. It was my first experience so my poses weren't the best and I wasn't perfectly semetrical. The left side of my body (even though im right handed) is slightly bigger / stronger than the right. Its a genetic thing so I don't think I can fix it. Anyway the only reason I did the contest was because I bulked so much so I wanted to see how much I could cut until I hit my goal weight.

Anyway now im quite a bit smaller. Im 168ish, 9% BF or so. Im a med school student so I have to study all the time. Don't get my perfect diet / workout routines like I used to. Some days I don't get to eat anything until 4-5 in the afternoon. Then I have to catch up at night. Not the best way to stay lean.

r2473 · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
Anyway now im quite a bit smaller. Im 168ish, 9% BF or so. Im a med school student so I have to study all the time. Don't get my perfect diet / workout routines like I used to. Some days I don't get to eat anything until 4-5 in the afternoon. Then I have to catch up at night. Not the best way to stay lean.

That puts you about 20 lbs. LBM above untrained. You should look a lot like the guy in the middle (but a bit shorter):

T Woody · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
Going heavy like that is a good way to affect growth / flexibility down the road.

coyfish said:
any improper form could lead to growth plate damage which is serious. At 16 the op should be okay but lifting heavy at a very young age isn't a good idea. Why take that risk.

coyfish said:
You dont want to walk into the gym and hurt yourself trying to do heavy squats in your first couple weeks of working out. There is no need or benefit.

You realize that in the history of the world people have managed to walk into a gym within a month of beginning training and learn to squat correctly, right? You make it sound like a heavy back squat is as dangerous as auto racing.

I'm pretty convinced by now that you've never read rippetoe's book since you say it's not for beginners. Nobody is advocating a 16 year old kid loading 3 plates on the bar during his first time in the gym. You begin light. Put a 45 lb bar on your back, arch the low back, weight in the heels, shove the knees out, and drive the hips hard once you hit parallel. Have someone watch these things and be sure you're doing them right. Rinse and repeat with more weight. With enough food and rest, form will stay very solid and a kid can safely add 50-100 pounds to their squat in very little time.

tricky · Feb 3, 2010

I hope you don't believe that light weight/high reps is for "teh toning" as well.

Actually, there is some truth to that. The metabolic stress created from density training improves the nutrient partitioning effect (mTOR -> AMPk) That's partially why HIIT works the way it does, even though it burns a rather diminutive amount of calories from activity or EPOC.

For bodybuilding purposes, there's basically two criteria. You need to have progressive overload in order to continue long-term progress. However, you also need metabolic stress in order to efficiently utilize the nutrients. Ideally, a given training day will have a "heavy portion" and then an anaerobic or "burn" portion.

For somebody doing Rippletoe's routines, adding a light weight, high rep burn set is probably enough. Or you could do some kind of full-body HIIT.

it stipulates that one should start with just the bar on all the barbell exercises

That's fine.

austinjbrunner · Feb 3, 2010

I weigh around 132 right now in college and I was at 120 all through high school before I started working out. Like someone suggested, just eat more. Like that same person suggested, doesn't have to be "fatty foods" just consume more of your regular diet. I do a regular workout, take some protein after that and then I go about my regular diet. Eating a lot more is important for those with a fast metabolism.

T Woody · Feb 3, 2010

Is this t nation? Why are we talking about nutrient partitioning? This kid is trying to add some useful strength, not get stage ready.

tricky · Feb 3, 2010

Why are we talking about nutrient partitioning?

I've been using that term for many years, and I always use it in reference to training.

This kid is trying to add some useful strength

Specifically, he wants to put on weight.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

T Woody said:
You realize that in the history of the world people have managed to walk into a gym within a month of beginning training and learn to squat correctly, right? You make it sound like a heavy back squat is as dangerous as auto racing.

I'm pretty convinced by now that you've never read rippetoe's book since you say it's not for beginners. Nobody is advocating a 16 year old kid loading 3 plates on the bar during his first time in the gym. You begin light. Put a 45 lb bar on your back, arch the low back, weight in the heels, shove the knees out, and drive the hips hard once you hit parallel. Have someone watch these things and be sure you're doing them right. Rinse and repeat with more weight. With enough food and rest, form will stay very solid and a kid can safely add 50-100 pounds to their squat in very little time.

I have been bodybuilding for years. I have also trained for a year. I am in medical school right now so not only have I achieved my own results / helped others but I understand the science behind lifting. I have seen injuries in the gym. From torn muscles to broken bones. People take for granted working out. Its easy to say oh just go in the gym and work out. But when you have seen what I have seen you re-evaluate whats important.

Its my opinion that it isn't a good idea to push yourself to the brink of your limits until you have a solid foundation both physically and mentally. The amount of time is arbitrary. For some it may take a few weeks. For others it may take 3 months. Thats what im trying to show. Seems like you agree so I don't know why you are picking at my arguments.

tricky · Feb 3, 2010

In any case, he should finish the P90x program, since he's already halfway there. It sounds like he hasn't been eating enough.

Honestly, I would actually recommend he'd do a food diary for a few days. That way, he can see how many calories he really is eating.

T Woody · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
I have been bodybuilding for years. I have also trained for a year. I am in medical school right now so not only have I achieved my own results / helped others but I understand the science behind lifting. I have seen injuries in the gym. From torn muscles to broken bones. People take for granted working out. Its easy to say oh just go in the gym and work out. But when you have seen what I have seen you re-evaluate whats important.

Its my opinion that it isn't a good idea to push yourself to the brink of your limits until you have a solid foundation both physically and mentally. The amount of time is arbitrary. For some it may take a few weeks. For others it may take 3 months. Thats what im trying to show. Seems like you agree so I don't know why you are picking at my arguments.

It's hard to know what's what over the internetz but it seems like you know your stuff and you've trained hard. My only issues are that you're leading off with the severe dangers of heavy lifting then after that being very vague about how to train. What is a teenage kid with no knowledge of training going to take away from that? Why not start by stressing the importance of building up slowly then recommend a program or your own specific program that will get them there? I think that would accomplish a lot more for people looking for help.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

r2473 said:
That puts you about 20 lbs. LBM above untrained. You should look a lot like the guy in the middle (but a bit shorter):

Right now ??? no. The guy in the middle looks to me about 6-7%BF. Im going to buy a HD video camera one of these days and start recording some of my tennis matches.

Im going to go through a dirty bulking cycle with HIT training in 4 weeks after I finish this cycle of split training.

paulaces · Feb 3, 2010

nadalfan! said:
I'm interested in putting on some pounds of muscle. I'm currently 16, 5'10, and about 142 pounds. I wanna just get to about 150 and I think that should be enough. I am doing p90x right now but I cant really follow the nutrition guide as there are a bunch of things on there that I do not have in my house. However, I do like to eat a lot of protein and after each workout, I take an isopure shake (0 carbs, 50g of protein). My problem is that I am in the 4th week of p90x and I've been killing myself and I haven't really had a change in weight. I'm pretty ok and I would say I am under 10% body fat because I can see my upper abs and a little bit of my lower abs. I just want to gain some good muscle and I think now is the best time to do it because I do not play as much tennis. I know everyone says that it takes a long time but my p90x program finishes on March 28th and I want to be about 150 lbs by then... Can anyone help me out?

EAT BUCKET LOADS OF STEAK DUDE.. UNLESS YOUR BEING PAID TO BE 150 THEN WHY WORRY. IM 300 POUNDS 6'7 I LOVE TENNIS . CALL ME A CHUNKY MONKEY IF YA LIKE. IT ALL TAKES TIME.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

T Woody said:
It's hard to know what's what over the internetz but it seems like you know your stuff and you've trained hard. My only issues are that you're leading off with the severe dangers of heavy lifting then after that being very vague about how to train. What is a teenage kid with no knowledge of training going to take away from that? Why not start by stressing the importance of building up slowly then recommend a program or your own specific program that will get them there? I think that would accomplish a lot more for people looking for help.

I just pointed out a mistake someone made in their post. I wasn't planning on getting so involved. But in basically my first post I made it clear that its a good idea to start small and work your way up . . .

r2473 · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
Right now ??? no. The guy in the middle looks to me about 6-7%BF. Im going to buy a HD video camera one of these days and start recording some of my tennis matches.

Im going to go through a dirty bulking cycle with HIT training in 4 weeks after I finish this cycle of split training.

I just meant that you have a similar amount of muscle. He is listed at 5' 11" 185 lbs. Depending on what bf% we assign to each of you, he only has a few more pounds of muscle than you (after we adjust for height).

And 168 lbs @ 9%, you would only have to lose 5 pounds of fat to get down to 6% (I realize 5 lbs. at those low bf % is a lot). But still, you can't look too dis-similar.

How much more muscle are you looking to add?

Vyse · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
Right now ??? no. The guy in the middle looks to me about 6-7%BF. Im going to buy a HD video camera one of these days and start recording some of my tennis matches.

Im going to go through a dirty bulking cycle with HIT training in 4 weeks after I finish this cycle of split training.

That high? really. I would of thought he would be below 5%. The calipur test must be really inaccurate. I've talked about how I am supposively 5.9% BF by calipurs but I do not look near what this guy does. Too many different ways to tell BF. You never really know I don't think.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

Vyse said:
That high? really. I would of thought he would be below 5%. The calipur test must be really inaccurate. I've talked about how I am supposively 5.9% BF by calipurs but I do not look near what this guy does. Too many different ways to tell BF. You never really know I don't think.

Actually you would be suprised. There really isn't a huge difference between guys who are 7% Bf and those around 5%. Its hard to tell because different people have different muscle structure / fat deposits.

5.9% BF is very low. I am an ectomorph and it took me some hard work to drop from about 7% to 5%. The guys to the left and right are leaner than the middle guy. Probably 5-6%.

Calipers leave room for human error. You need to know how to use them to properly asess your BF.

nadalfan! · Feb 3, 2010

I did a food diary for the last two days and I will try to post some of the results. I have an app on my ipod touch for this. I'll keep you guys posted.

coyfish · Feb 3, 2010

r2473 said:
I just meant that you have a similar amount of muscle. He is listed at 5' 11" 185 lbs. Depending on what bf% we assign to each of you, he only has a few more pounds of muscle than you (after we adjust for height).

And 168 lbs @ 9%, you would only have to lose 5 pounds of fat to get down to 6% (I realize 5 lbs. at those low bf % is a lot). But still, you can't look too dis-similar.

How much more muscle are you looking to add?

Yeah 5 lbs is a lot of lean muscle

. Are you talking about me now or during my competition?? That guy looks like I did more or less. He has a better chest but I had bigger legs.

Im going to do a 3 month bulk cycle. Looking to add about 5-6 lbs of muscle. So ill shoot for about 9-10 lbs total (depending on my fat gain). Then ill do a cut. Figured now that I don't have as much time to do watch my diet / do cardio I should bulk a bit.

Haven't bulked in a while so it will be interesting to see how my body responds. Im 22 now but back when I was 19 I ate fast food everyday and never got over 10% BF while I was bulking.

r2473 · Feb 3, 2010

coyfish said:
Yeah 5 lbs is a lot of lean muscle . Are you talking about me now or during my competition?? That guy looks like I did more or less. He has a better chest but I had bigger legs.

Im going to do a 3 month bulk cycle. Looking to add about 5-6 lbs of muscle. So ill shoot for about 9-10 lbs total (depending on my fat gain). Then ill do a cut. Figured now that I don't have as much time to do watch my diet / do cardio I should bulk a bit.

Haven't bulked in a while so it will be interesting to see how my body responds. Im 22 now but back when I was 19 I ate fast food everyday and never got over 10% BF while I was bulking.

I'm talking about you now. Based on the numbers, you ought to have pretty comparable LBM numbers (height adjusted). I pegged the guy as having about 2-3 more lbs. of muscle. I would put that guy around 8% bf (I'm looking at his legs). If you go much lower, you have to ask yourself how low the guys to his left are? And they aren't even "low" compared to the guys that are really shredded. How low are they?

If you really do carry around 18 lbs. of muscle over "untrained", then I would predict that putting on "5-6 more pounds of muscle" won't be easy. If you read the article I linked to, I bet your genetic potential (without using steroids) is a maximum 33 lbs. over untrained.

Also, if you read further some of the other material on the site where I got the article, you will see that the basic formula for the maximum amount of muscle growth you can expect (if you do everything perfect) is about 12 - 18 pounds in your first year (much of this depends on your size and build and you should be on the lower end at 5' 8" ectomorph build) and then 50% every year after that.

So say you put on 12 in year 1 and 6 in year 2. That gives you about 18 lbs. Now in year 3, you can only expect 3 - 4 pounds for an entire year of training. If you do go through with the bulk, I would be interested to know how it goes for you.

(**As a side note, you may be thinking to yourself, if this is all true, then I would reach (very, very close to) my genetic potential - the maximum amount of muscle I could genetically gain without steroids - in 5 years. You would be right. If you did everything perfect you would max out in about 5 years. But, basically nobody does everything perfect - though a few people apparently have).

The formulas this guy developed have been fairly rigorously tested. It would be interesting if you could get the most accurate bodyfat test you can and record the results before you start. There is also a formula to determine your "untrained" LBM (if you don't know what that was. I am going to guess that at 5' 8", it was around 135 lbs.). That way you will know exactly how far above "untrained" you are starting.

My motives are partially selfish. Rough calculations put us with similar amounts of muscle (height adjusted). I would like to know how the next phase goes for you as it will give me a clue as to what I can expect if I decide to try another bulk phase.

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