3-Strike Rule and DQed mid-season...

dmarcen · Mar 24, 2010

Ok i will start by explaining a little about me: I am a 23 yr old guy, and i started playing tennis last may with no prior experience to Tennis. So at that time i rated as a 2.5 player. I will agree that I have progressed due to a good sporting background and my mixed team went to state last year but i didn't play in any spring leagues as i had not started yet. So in November I was bumped to a 3.0 Mixed rated player which i had expected.

Now, I am a 3.0 Men's team where my record is:
Singles 6-0 6-0 W
Singles 6-2 6-2 W
Singles 6-3 6-2 W
Singles 6-2 7-6 (4) W
And also on a 3.5 Men's team where my record is:
Doubles 6-1 6-4 W (but had a very strong partner)
Doubles 6-3 6-3 L

So I got an email yesterday that i was being disqualified due to getting three strikes against me and all matches for my team will therefore be forfeited. We do have a strong team that we expect to go to state with and so far are 4-0 on the season and even w/ my DQ the team will still be 4-0 due to how the matches were won. But my concern and problem is this: I would not have minded if I were double bumped in November w/ the large scale rating, but after the efforts of compiling a strong team and half-way through the season I just do not feel this is fair to me nor my team which i am no longer a member of. I didn't lie about past tennis experience and the first two matches I played were against players that have not a won a match this year and last year had very poor records as well. I just feel that due to playing poor 3.0 players in the early going I am being punished due to a glitch in the USTA system! So do you feel that the correct thing was done in consideration of my record thus far...

JavierLW · Mar 24, 2010

That seems like a normal result to me.

If they were really weak 3.0's it wouldnt of gotten you a strike, they probably just seem weak to you because you've surpassed them.

Plus any play at a higher level can throw some numbers in that can give you a strike. You could even lose a match and that would happen if the match is close.

Congratulations on the bump up! At least you have a 3.5 team to play on.

Pompitous of Love · Mar 24, 2010

Double check the match reversals...

dmarcen said:
...So in November I was bumped to a 3.0 Mixed rated player which i had expected.
...all matches for my team will therefore be forfeited...

I have a Mixed Exclusive rated player doing very well on my 4.0 team this season. I was concerned about a possible DQ and looked into it further. I'm in the Southern Section like you. Here's what I found:

From the National Reg's:
3.04D Scoring Procedures.
3.04D(1) Local. In the event of a disqualification from a particular level of play, the Section shall determine and publish in its regulations what matches, if any, shall be considered losses.

From Southern Section Reg's:
3.04D(1) Local . If a self-rated player or a player with a granted medical appeal is disqualified for that particular level of play, all matches played by that individual player at that level shall be considered losses and scored (6-0, 6-0). All players who have computer rated appeals (A), dynamic ratings (D), mixed exclusive (M) or tournament ratings (T) who are subject to disqualification, will not be subject to match reversal if disqualified.

I don't think your winning matches should be reversed...

J_R_B · Mar 24, 2010

This isn't either out of the ordinary or wrong. Playing up a level with a non-C-or-B rating is the easiest way to get DQ'd from any level. You clearly got 2 strikes from your 3.5 matches (yes, despite losing one...) and you were dominating singles at the lower level. Who knows which of the 4 straight set singles victories was the third strike, but your record clearly indicates that you are now a 3.5 caliber player, and you will no longer be allowed to sandbag at the 3.0 level.

Congrats, though, 3.5 is not a neophyte tennis level. you are progressing very quickly in this sport.

JavierLW · Mar 24, 2010

Pompitous of Love said:
From Southern Section Reg's:
3.04D(1) Local . If a self-rated player or a player with a granted medical appeal is disqualified for that particular level of play, all matches played by that individual player at that level shall be considered losses and scored (6-0, 6-0). All players who have computer rated appeals (A), dynamic ratings (D), mixed exclusive (M) or tournament ratings (T) who are subject to disqualification, will not be subject to match reversal if disqualified.

I don't think your winning matches should be reversed...

He's obviously not in the Southern section then.

But like he said, either they were reversed or not, his team is still 4-0. He seems to have a problem with getting DQ'ed, not with the fact that his matches are now won or lost.

Pompitous of Love · Mar 24, 2010

JavierLW said:
He's obviously not in the Southern section then.

Reads "Upstate, SC"

Kostas · Mar 24, 2010

Nothing else to add from what's already been said.

Make peace with the fact that you have absolutely no recourse in a dynamic DQ. Just take your lumps and move on.

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

dmarcen said:
Ok i will start by explaining a little about me: I am a 23 yr old guy, and i started playing tennis last may with no prior experience to Tennis. So at that time i rated as a 2.5 player. I will agree that I have progressed due to a good sporting background and my mixed team went to state last year but i didn't play in any spring leagues as i had not started yet. So in November I was bumped to a 3.0 Mixed rated player which i had expected.

Now, I am a 3.0 Men's team where my record is:
Singles 6-0 6-0 W
Singles 6-2 6-2 W
Singles 6-3 6-2 W
Singles 6-2 7-6 (4) W
And also on a 3.5 Men's team where my record is:
Doubles 6-1 6-4 W (but had a very strong partner)
Doubles 6-3 6-3 L

So I got an email yesterday that i was being disqualified due to getting three strikes against me and all matches for my team will therefore be forfeited. We do have a strong team that we expect to go to state with and so far are 4-0 on the season and even w/ my DQ the team will still be 4-0 due to how the matches were won. But my concern and problem is this: I would not have minded if I were double bumped in November w/ the large scale rating, but after the efforts of compiling a strong team and half-way through the season I just do not feel this is fair to me nor my team which i am no longer a member of. I didn't lie about past tennis experience and the first two matches I played were against players that have not a won a match this year and last year had very poor records as well. I just feel that due to playing poor 3.0 players in the early going I am being punished due to a glitch in the USTA system! So do you feel that the correct thing was done in consideration of my record thus far...

Yea, it sounds like they got you man. I have a serious problem with USTA and that's why I'm playing more Alta(Atlanta doubles league) these days along with Rainbow tennis touraments in the southeast. Our team went through something very similiar back in 2003 when I started playing on a team(3.0) for the first time. After running through city and state, we get back home and before we could get out the bed good, one of my teammates had gotten an email telling him he was dq'd for 3 strikes. So I start speaking to one of the representives about the system. She proceeded to tell me that once you beat 3 bench mark players you are dq'd. My thought process is like this. If I'm supposed to lose matches to certain people then why do we even pay the money to play? Furthermore, if I pay my money to play at a level that your computer determined I was at the beginning of the season then they(USTA) should live with my results for that year. To me that is basically a contract and they break it when they come through in the middle of the season and do some nonsense like that. We ended up not going to sectionals because the representitive couldn't promise me that others on the team didn't already have 2 strikes and would not also be dq'd at sectionals. They were harassing us about getting 250 bucks from us before we went to sectionals but we would have been crazy to do something like that. We weren't about to take 2 or 3 days off, spend some 300 bucks in hotels apiece only for them to dq more people once we got there. I like Alta in Atlanta much better. It's not perfect but it's consistent. Your whole team gets bumped and that's the end of it. USTA is a joke and swear if I weren't good friends with the guy I play with now, I wouldn't play it. You almost have to cheat to play it. You have to go out and throw matches just to keep from being bumped and that's no fun. The best thing I can tell you is be very careful about playing with teams where they are playing in a higher bracket than you are. That will surely get you bumped. I remember telling the woman after she told me our player had 3 strikes and he was out just like in baseball. I responded by saying he was never told he had the first two strikes like they do in baseball. Normally you will get a warning(stttttrike 1, stttrike 2), then of course she said this isn't baseball.

This again was a USTA official so that tells you that they themselves can't even tell you what's what and that's the way they seem to want it.

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

JavierLW said:
He's obviously not in the Southern section then.

But like he said, either they were reversed or not, his team is still 4-0. He seems to have a problem with getting DQ'ed, not with the fact that his matches are now won or lost.

The fact is none of that should happen if he's paid his money to play a level that USTA's own computer said he was 3.0. That doesn't make any sense to me and I'm surprised that someone hasn't sued them for this.

Rabbit · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
Yea, it sounds like they got you man. I have a serious problem with USTA and that's why I'm playing more Alta(Atlanta doubles league) these days along with Rainbow tennis touraments in the southeast. Our team went through something very similiar back in 2003 when I started playing on a team(3.0) for the first time. After running through city and state, we get back home and before we could get out the bed good, one of my teammates had gotten an email telling him he was dq'd for 3 strikes. So I start speaking to one of the representives about the system. She proceeded to tell me that once you beat 3 bench mark players you are dq'd. My thought process is like this. If I'm supposed to lose matches to certain people then why do we even pay the money to play? Furthermore, if I pay my money to play at a level that your computer determined I was at the beginning of the season then they(USTA) should live with my results for that year. To me that is basically a contract and they break it when they come through in the middle of the season and do some nonsense like that. We ended up not going to sectionals because the representitive couldn't promise me that others on the team didn't already have 2 strikes and would not also be dq'd at sectionals. They were harassing us about getting 250 bucks from us before we went to sectionals but we would have been crazy to do something like that. We weren't about to take 2 or 3 days off, spend some 300 bucks in hotels apiece only for them to dq more people once we got there. I like Alta in Atlanta much better. It's not perfect but it's consistent. Your whole team gets bumped and that's the end of it. USTA is a joke and swear if I weren't good friends with the guy I play with now, I wouldn't play it. You almost have to cheat to play it. You have to go out and throw matches just to keep from being bumped and that's no fun. The best thing I can tell you is be very careful about playing with teams where they are playing in a higher bracket than you are. That will surely get you bumped. I remember telling the woman after she told me our player had 3 strikes and he was out just like in baseball. I responded by saying he was never told he had the first two strikes like they do in baseball. Normally you will get a warning(stttttrike 1, stttrike 2), then of course she said this isn't baseball. This again was a USTA official so that tells you that they themselves can't even tell you what's what and that's the way they seem to want it.

Amen. I wish ALTA would export.

Kostas said:
Nothing else to add from what's already been said.

Make peace with the fact that you have absolutely no recourse in a dynamic DQ. Just take your lumps and move on.

Amen again.

Islandtennis · Mar 24, 2010

Dmarcen,

The matches that you played were not forfeited. You can see that you received a DQ vs. a DQ*. You can't play for the 3.0 team anymore, but the matches that you had played stand.

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

islandtennis said:
Dmarcen,

The matches that you played were not forfeited. You can see that you received a DQ vs. a DQ*. You can't play for the 3.0 team anymore, but the matches that you had played stand.

It's still nonsense. They didn't just mess over him but they messed over the entire team that paid money to play with him on a team.

J_R_B · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
It's still nonsense. They didn't just mess over him but they messed over the entire team that paid money to play with him on a team.

Instead of messing over every other team that doesn't want to play 3.0 against a sandbagging 3.5? It's not perfect, but the system worked in this case. The guy is simply not a 3.0 any more.

JavierLW · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
The fact is none of that should happen if he's paid his money to play a level that USTA's own computer said he was 3.0. That doesn't make any sense to me and I'm surprised that someone hasn't sued them for this.

He had a mixed rating from 3.0. That's hardly grounds for putting any stock in that the computer says he's 3.0, which is why a mixed rating can still get you DQ'ed.

He could be 4.5 for all we know and the computer is only going to stick him at 3.0, that's what happens when you start way on the bottom. (and hardly anyone really is a 2.5 anymore.....)

There would be no reason to sue them, they have rules, if you take the time to read the rules then generally you should be okay.

Any normal person who looks at these results will say this guy is not a 3.0 player. He has no right to complain, that's just the risk that he and his team took by having him play those matches, and that's the whole reason for the DQ system in the first place.

(to deter people from playing at the wrong level, the league for the most part is for having the experience of playing league tennis, not for a bunch of sandbaggers who's only goal and motivation is going to the playoffs to the point where they will sue if they cant)

It sounds like his team is still in good shape anyway.

gameboy · Mar 24, 2010

I would have to ask the logic of anyone who thinks that sandbaggers should get their money refunded for their sandbaggery.

clintontiger · Mar 24, 2010

dmarcen: what part of upstate, i need to hit a little more and would be willing to get with you for some singles. I am a 3.0.

Chris

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

J_R_B said:
Instead of messing over every other team that doesn't want to play 3.0 against a sandbagging 3.5? It's not perfect, but the system worked in this case. The guy is simply not a 3.0 any more.

Hold on bro. How is it sandbagging when their own computer rated him a 3.5. It's sandbagging when he comes in the first year and self rates. He's been in the computer according to him so they are basically saying at this point screw what "our" computer said. That tells you that their system is jacked up. This is not about sandbagging but a jacked up system that they(USTA) can't even explain.

Kostas · Mar 24, 2010

I would also like to add a thought...

dmarcen said:
Ok i will start by explaining a little about me: I am a 23 yr old guy, and i started playing tennis last may with no prior experience to Tennis. So at that time i rated as a 2.5 player. I will agree that I have progressed due to a good sporting background and my mixed team went to state last year but i didn't play in any spring leagues as i had not started yet. So in November I was bumped to a 3.0 Mixed rated player which i had expected......

You can't say that you honestly self-rated at 2.5 when the NTRP ratings guidelines specifically state:

Players new to tennis who have had competitive experience in other sports should consider the rapid improvement anticipated and not rate below 3.0

That said your initial 2.5 rating was likely not accurate and your subsequent bump to 3.0 was equally inaccurate by 1 level.

The fact that you were easily winning all your 3.0 matches and undisputedly competitive in your 3.5 matches should lend weight to the fact that this "DQ" was easily warranted.

Kostas · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
Hold on bro. How is it sandbagging when their own computer rated him a 3.5. It's sandbagging when he comes in the first year and self rates. He's been in the computer according to him so they are basically saying at this point screw what "our" computer said. That tells you that their system is jacked up. This is not about sandbagging but a jacked up system that they(USTA) can't even explain.

Eh?

Perhaps "sandbagging" is a bit of a harsh term in this case but the OP clearly self-rated too low and the "system" corrected it.

And it's not that the USTA CAN'T explain it, but doing so would open the system up to manipulation beyond belief. There's a reason they don't tell you how it works.

It's designed to keep the matches competitive and that's what happened here.

I'll never tire of the people who complain that they can't win 90%+ of their matches anymore because the computer "arbitrarily" bumped them to the next level.

J_R_B · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
Hold on bro. How is it sandbagging when their own computer rated him a 3.5. It's sandbagging when he comes in the first year and self rates. He's been in the computer according to him so they are basically saying at this point screw what "our" computer said. That tells you that their system is jacked up. This is not about sandbagging but a jacked up system that they(USTA) can't even explain.

A mixed exclusive rating is not computer rated for adult league play. It's in the rules. There's nothing underhanded about it. As you yourself just said, their computer has him rated at 3.5, so that is where he must play.

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

JavierLW said:
He had a mixed rating from 3.0. That's hardly grounds for putting any stock in that the computer says he's 3.0, which is why a mixed rating can still get you DQ'ed.

He could be 4.5 for all we know and the computer is only going to stick him at 3.0, that's what happens when you start way on the bottom. (and hardly anyone really is a 2.5 anymore.....)

There would be no reason to sue them, they have rules, if you take the time to read the rules then generally you should be okay.

Any normal person who looks at these results will say this guy is not a 3.0 player. He has no right to complain, that's just the risk that he and his team took by having him play those matches, and that's the whole reason for the DQ system in the first place.

(to deter people from playing at the wrong level, the league for the most part is for having the experience of playing league tennis, not for a bunch of sandbaggers who's only goal and motivation is going to the playoffs to the point where they will sue if they cant)

It sounds like his team is still in good shape anyway.

This sounds real good but at the end of the day anyone that has played tennis knows that by the time you reach state and sectional level you are playing people that are clearly a level above what is stated that they are playing. So the real truth is this. This guy because he is new didn't know how to manipulate the rules. That's what this is about. The year we won the state at 3.0 we saw a guy serving kick serves that were jumping over the side fence on the side line. Now how the hell did he last in 3.0 that long? The bottom line is it's a jacked up system and this guy just got his first lesson of now knowing that he has to tone down his play at times just like everyone else to maintain a descent rating. No one wants to admit it but everyone knows you can't go out kicking people's @$$ 0 and 0 or you will be dq'd. That's the lesson he just learned. The truth is some of the people he probably beat were rolling over. The computer can't see that. It's jacked up man no matter how you slice it.

J_R_B · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
This sounds real good but at the end of the day anyone that has played tennis knows that by the time you reach state and sectional level you are playing people that are clearly a level above what is stated that they are playing. So the real truth is this. This guy because he is new didn't know how to manipulate the rules. That's what this is about. The year we won the state at 3.0 we saw a guy serving kick serves that were jumping over the side fence on the side line. Now how the hell did he last in 3.0 that long? The bottom line is it's a jacked up system and this guy just got his first lesson of now knowing that he has to tone down his play at times just like everyone else to maintain a descent rating. No one wants to admit it but everyone knows you can't go out kicking people's @$$ 0 and 0 or you will be dq'd. That's the lesson he just learned. The truth is some of the people he probably beat were rolling over. The computer can't see that. It's jacked up man no matter how you slice it.

That's exactly what they were trying to correct this year. By the time you reach sectionals you are going to see players that are better than the regular league players. That's how they got to sectionals in the first place - by winning. The system works as well as it can.

Your crying like a baby is pathetic.

JavierLW · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
This sounds real good but at the end of the day anyone that has played tennis knows that by the time you reach state and sectional level you are playing people that are clearly a level above what is stated that they are playing. So the real truth is this. This guy because he is new didn't know how to manipulate the rules. That's what this is about. The year we won the state at 3.0 we saw a guy serving kick serves that were jumping over the side fence on the side line. Now how the hell did he last in 3.0 that long? The bottom line is it's a jacked up system and this guy just got his first lesson of now knowing that he has to tone down his play at times just like everyone else to maintain a descent rating. No one wants to admit it but everyone knows you can't go out kicking people's @$$ 0 and 0 or you will be dq'd. That's the lesson he just learned. The truth is some of the people he probably beat were rolling over. The computer can't see that. It's jacked up man no matter how you slice it.

Well that's the jist of it. You can just continue to make the excuse that "it's all jacked up man", and "everyone is doing it".

Or you can do something about it when someone is finally actually out of level. This is doing something about it....

They took care of all of those gamers last year when they took a huge chunk of the 3.0 and threw them into 3.5.

They pretty much killed 3.0 in my area and perhaps some people got a bad rap, but you can blame all the cheaters and gamers you keep talking about for that.... (because anytime you try to have a reasonable human in charge of all of this they tend to cheat.....)

Same with this guy. If he got a bad rap (and I dont think he did), then he needs to blame all the cheaters who spoiled it for everyone else.

(including the cheaters who cheat just because they went to the playoffs and saw everyone else cheat....)

JavierLW · Mar 24, 2010

J_R_B said:
Your crying like a baby is pathetic.

Thank you, Im glad someone said it, and it wasnt me for a change.

I live in a smaller tennis area that traditionally didnt do well in sectionals and my section did bad in nationals.

So I know this argument and what it creates, it creates even bigger cheaters.

(they go to sectionals and lose so now suddenly it's okay to play way below your rating to the extent that they are ruining the experience for the league in general at the local level)

athiker · Mar 24, 2010

J_R_B said:
A mixed exclusive rating is not computer rated for adult league play. It's in the rules. There's nothing underhanded about it. As you yourself just said, their computer has him rated at 3.5, so that is where he must play.

It sounds like the OP self-rated a level below where he should have given his sport background (not to mention at 23 he's half the age of many League players

) so instead of improving 1 level in ability and not getting DQ'd he improved 2 levels in a very short time in the eyes of the USTA and got DQ'd. Even though he received a 3.0 computer Mixed Exclusive rating at the end of his first season, he was basically still considered a self rated 2.5 for Adult League play b/c he hadn't played any non-mixed. He obviously felt he was competitive at 3.5 since he signed up to play on a 3.5 team. What he didn't realize was that since he was still considered a self-rated 2.5 he was opening himself up to being DQ'd on the 3.0 team if he performed well.

I don't think there was any real ill intent on his part (I had no clue about ratings and rules when I signed up) but neither do I think that the USTA is wrong in this case. I self-rated 3.0, was in my mid-40s, had not played in a decade, played only casually then and never organized but felt I was still pretty athletic so 2.5 didn't seem right to me.

The OP got to go to states in mixed his first year in the league...be happy. Many play for years and never advance to sectionals. My unsolicited advice is to keep playing and keep improving and play b/c you like to play the game and like to be challenged. At 23 you have the time and opportunity to become a really fine player over the years if you want it. Good luck.

Anyway this is from the SoCal USTA website:

http://www.scta.usta.com/Global/Custom%20Pages/USA%20League%20Tennis%20Pages/3179_NTRP_Ratings_and_Player_Guide.aspx

The National Tennis Rating Program (NTRP) is the official system for determining the levels of competition for the USTA League Tennis Program.

PURPOSE
The primary goal of the program is to help all tennis players enjoy the game by providing a method of classifying skill levels for more compatible matches, group lessons, league play, tournaments and other programs.

GUIDELINES
The rating categories are generalizations about skill levels. You may find that you actually play above or below the category that best describes your skill level, depending on your competitive ability. The category you choose is not meant to be permanent, but may be adjusted as your skills change or as your match play demonstrates the need for reclassification. Ultimately your rating is based upon match results.

In an effort to avoid disqualification when players are rating themselves and they question which level they should play, they should place themselves in the higher level of play. Players must rate themselves in accordance with the NTRP.

Players who are good athletes and intend to spend a great deal of time taking lessons and practicing should be aware that their improvement may be significant enough to surpass their original self-rate level. Self-rated and computer rated players holding a classification of “M”, “T”, or “A” are subject to disqualification through Sectional Championships. Players granted a Medical Appeal are classified as self rated and are subject to disqualification.

innoVAShaun · Mar 24, 2010

As you can see from the results, he wasn't sandbagging.

Sandbagging results would look more like:

4-6, 6-0, 1-0 W
6-1, 5-7, 1-0 W
6-3, 6-3 W
6-4, 6-4 W
6-4, 5-7, 0-1 L (Against player that went 1-7 the season)

His scores look more like a**whoopings to me.

A**whoopings = DQ

dmarcen · Mar 24, 2010

Wow... I didn't mean to open up all of the critics lol. I am fine w/ being a 3.5 player i mean its almost a compliment and self-fulfilling to being essentially double-bumped in one year.

My biggest thing was just that initially signing up for this team there were expectations set that we were going to be very competitive and do our best to bring a state title back to our club. I realize, yes its whining. I just hate that I was not notified with an email that said "hey, you have recieved a "strike" for your previous match in winning 0 & 0 and therefore you are on a warning level" or something of this caliber so that I realize that I am basically on probation. I just thought i would ask about this so that I could get some opinions from others.

In my opinion, since i went unbeaten w/ my mixed partner last year through the season and lost once at state then I should have possibly been double-bumped at that point, but since that did not happen I should be able to fulfill this spring season and if they want to bump me up a level after this season then so be it. Therefore, preventing teams from being broken and the next season could only be played at 3.5.

And after reading some of the posts from you guys and really looking at my teams record and such, you guys are right that they did not overturn my matches but i have DQ beside my name and eventhough my name is still on the team registry I am the only 3.5 on the team but obviously can't play. So you guys were right about that, I had just been taking bits and pieces from people at my club as to what was going to happen.

So, its done now, and thats fine... I'm now a 3.5 it was just frustrating to happen mid-season when they just had the rating adjustments in November/December. It's just a loop-hole in the system for new players, of which don't know exactly what they are doing when initially signing up. (oops) I'm still just as happy playing tennis and working to become possibly a 4.0 player at somepoint but now just not on the team which i orginally was extremely excited about! thanks for all of the answers and rule-posting they were helpful for me to understand...

One Lesson down in Tennis... Don't get your hopes for a strong team because the rug will be pulled!

(for whoever was wondering what part of upstate SC, I'm in Anderson lemme know where you are)

Kostas · Mar 24, 2010

dmarcen said:
Wow... I didn't mean to open up all of the critics lol. I am fine w/ being a 3.5 player i mean its almost a compliment and self-fulfilling to being essentially double-bumped in one year.

My biggest thing was just that initially signing up for this team there were expectations set that we were going to be very competitive and do our best to bring a state title back to our club. I realize, yes its whining. I just hate that I was not notified with an email that said "hey, you have recieved a "strike" for your previous match in winning 0 & 0 and therefore you are on a warning level" or something of this caliber so that I realize that I am basically on probation. I just thought i would ask about this so that I could get some opinions from others.

In my opinion, since i went unbeaten w/ my mixed partner last year through the season and lost once at state then I should have possibly been double-bumped at that point, but since that did not happen I should be able to fulfill this spring season and if they want to bump me up a level after this season then so be it. Therefore, preventing teams from being broken and the next season could only be played at 3.5.

And after reading some of the posts from you guys and really looking at my teams record and such, you guys are right that they did not overturn my matches but i have DQ beside my name and eventhough my name is still on the team registry I am the only 3.5 on the team but obviously can't play. So you guys were right about that, I had just been taking bits and pieces from people at my club as to what was going to happen.

So, its done now, and thats fine... I'm now a 3.5 it was just frustrating to happen mid-season when they just had the rating adjustments in November/December. It's just a loop-hole in the system for new players, of which don't know exactly what they are doing when initially signing up. (oops) I'm still just as happy playing tennis and working to become possibly a 4.0 player at somepoint but now just not on the team which i orginally was extremely excited about! thanks for all of the answers and rule-posting they were helpful for me to understand...

One Lesson down in Tennis... Don't get your hopes for a strong team because the rug will be pulled!

(for whoever was wondering what part of upstate SC, I'm in Anderson lemme know where you are)

You have a good attitude about this and tennis and I suspect it will serve you well as you become more experienced in USTA league tennis.

About your lesson, as you will also learn, strong teams are usually 1 of 2 animals: A team of low-rated players who genuinely increase their play (and DON'T play up) and come to a point of near-domination in their league OR people VERY skilled in manipulation of ratings and matches to keep players who self-rated too low from being DQ'd.

I learned very quickly once I started playing USTA that it does no good to get upset at this fact. Just try to enjoy tennis and put the best team together you can.

netman · Mar 24, 2010

Ah! The constant battle between ego, personality type and the USTA rating.

Insecure ego-centrics love to play below their level, mow down the competition, and win a gold ball. It reinforces their self-confidence and sense of well-being. They are always whining about the dynamic rating system moving them up where they actually have to compete against folks as good as they are. Heaven forbid they might lose.

Then there are the "journey" folks, who celebrate a rating upgrade as an affirmation of all their hard work on the court coming to fruition. For them, the upgrade is a reward, not a penalty.

Got to appreciate the USTA folks for their patience in dealing with such diverse personalities.

-k-

dmarcen · Mar 24, 2010

Thanks I appreciate it. We knew we had a good dominate team but several of us have just started playing and we have a good drive to compete at a high level. It's funny that while yes, we have 6 of our 12 team members are also on my 3.5 team, and yet our 3.5 team is 0-4 on the year but i was chosen to be bumped. And i look at the other teams in our leauge and most have atleast 3 or 4 players on the 3.0 team playing up to 3.5. Maybe its just me but at sectionals it was evident that the ratings from state to state vary. GA & SC have much higher skill players because the teams we played at state and i will mention that my team lost in finals (so we were actually the one wild card team that went to mobile), but the teams we played at state were much tougher than some of the representing teams at sectionals. just thought that was something of notice too.

forthegame · Mar 24, 2010

I thought it was meant to be fun?

Every other day you read about people DQed, bumped by a computer.

Angst, angst, angst!

So many rules, laws and byelaws!

Where, oh where is the fun?

clintontiger · Mar 24, 2010

dmarcen: I live in Clinton, hoping you were in like simpsonville or something, if you ever come down this way for business or something maybe we can get together.

chris

gameboy · Mar 24, 2010

dmarcen said:
I just hate that I was not notified with an email that said "hey, you have recieved a "strike" for your previous match in winning 0 & 0 and therefore you are on a warning level" or something of this caliber so that I realize that I am basically on probation.

Why? So that you can throttle back and hide the fact that you are in the wrong level?

That policy would be heaven for sandbaggers.

dmarcen · Mar 24, 2010

yea i see your point gameboy... guess i just got what was coming to me and many of you would like to throw me into the pile of those which ruin the game

kylebarendrick · Mar 24, 2010

I don't think you really did much wrong (I'd agree that the 2.5 self rating was questionable but not a big deal) beyond making the mistake of equating your 3.0M mixed-exclusive rating to a 3.0C computer rating. The questions about fairness are correct: if you sign up to play at the level the USTA computers assign you to, why should you be subject to a DQ?

The new rules that protect "C" rated players from DQ address that exact issue. If you have played enough adult league matches to generate a valid computer rating, then USTA will allow you to play at that rating for the next year. Unfortunately you had a mixed rating which doesn't provide that protection, basically because mixed ratings aren't considered as accurate. Essentially they are the same as being self-rated.

No system in any skill-leveled sporting league can weed out the determined cheaters. If someone is willing to throw sets or matches to keep their rating down they will succeed. The system only catches those that aren't trying to manipulate it.

JavierLW · Mar 24, 2010

dmarcen said:
yea i see your point gameboy... guess i just got what was coming to me and many of you would like to throw me into the pile of those which ruin the game

I certainly didnt accuse you of cheating, it's people like chatt_town that come on here and make you look bad by over doing it.

If you succeed too well, a few people will get DQ'ed, that's just the way it goes. I agree with you that it's really a accomplishment more then anything.

Whether you were screwed or not depends on what you can reasonably expect when you register for a team.

If someone is registering for the fun and the love of tennis and the chance to compete, then in most cases where they get DQ'ed they cant really complain. After all they still got to play some tennis and whether those matches count or not you cant take that away.

But if someone is only in it for a pen and a trip somewhere that they have to pay for themselves, then they will obviously feel robbed. But what guarentee is there of that anyway? I think if a team feels they are somehow owed that trip and they were certain they were going to win then why the heck are they playing at that level anyway? (and wasting an entire local season just on the basis that they couldnt get past some higher level on ONE weekend last year is still not really a reason)

Not to say it's bad to want to win, it is a league and that's a good goal to have, but when people go to the extent that they feel "robbed" when they dont win you have to wonder what their motivation really is. (not saying that's you or your team, but it does fit some guys on here)

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

J_R_B said:
That's exactly what they were trying to correct this year. By the time you reach sectionals you are going to see players that are better than the regular league players. That's how they got to sectionals in the first place - by winning. The system works as well as it can.

Your crying like a baby is pathetic.

Hold on now. Lets not get testy because see just like you say I'm crying, I could tell you to loosen your thong but I'm not going to do that this time. So lets stick to the subject. Please lets not make it personal. Like I said, it's jacked up because they can't explain a damn thing they do, but they are taking advantage of the fact that they pretty much have a monopoly on the league play and that's cool. It doesn't work as well as it can. It works as well as well as it does because they are not willing to put any more effort into making it better. I heard of two many situations where teams and people get together and put scores in the computer to keep from being screwed. No 40 year old person in their right man wants to spend money to go out to sectionals to have serves jumped over their head and spend big bucks to do so. I love playing those guys but I don't want to pay USTA to do it. So like I said. This young guy just took a lesson in how to work the system like every one else. We have a girl here that got a 4.5 rating with a 3.5 game and it basically came from girls rolling over to her when their teams were kicking in this girls team and didn't need her line.

So don't act like it doesn't happen just because you are on their strap. Just admit that it has some serious flaws so the guy can at least know that we all to some degree have experienced what he is going through. One other example. We had a team here that not only went to Nationals two years in a row. They won it the second year and didn't lose one player doing it, yet other players were being dq'd left and right or being bumped just for making it to state. Not only that the second year after they won the Nationals like 5 of them got their ratings lowered, but no one can explain that and the reason is because they are relying on a computer to tell you based on scores where people should be and the scoring itself can be manipulated. When I was in programming school my teacher use to say. "Garbage in garbage out" and now this is a perfect example of that.

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

JavierLW said:
Thank you, Im glad someone said it, and it wasnt me for a change.

I live in a smaller tennis area that traditionally didnt do well in sectionals and my section did bad in nationals.

So I know this argument and what it creates, it creates even bigger cheaters.

(they go to sectionals and lose so now suddenly it's okay to play way below your rating to the extent that they are ruining the experience for the league in general at the local level)

Dude/Dudette,

I don't think you understand. You two don't want to admit that USTA is more jacked up than it should be with all the money they are taking from people but it is. You two must have stock in USTA or something to be on their strap like you all are. The fact of the matter is what I said earlier which is the National champions of most divisions are just the teams that have mastered beating the system and being able to hold on to their players. Anyone that has common sense knows it doesn't make sense to make people bench mark because they played at the state the year before but they clearly do that. So if this guy that started this thread came and played on a kick@$$ team at the 4.0 level and made it state, he basically immediately becomes a benchmark 4.0 player that no one is allowed to beat and that's with him clearly being a 3.5 at best player. So any descent 4.0 player is hosed up as soon as he walks on the court with this guy. That's just one example. So you two can toot their horn if you want but I'm going to call it what it is and save the guy some problems in the future by saying just pay attention to what's going on around you and don't get caught up in wanting to be a 4.0 or 4.5. You certainly don't want to be playing beginners probably at this point, but if something doesn't smell right, it probably isn't. Just pay attention man to what's going on around you and you'll be fine.

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

JavierLW said:
Well that's the jist of it. You can just continue to make the excuse that "it's all jacked up man", and "everyone is doing it".

Or you can do something about it when someone is finally actually out of level. This is doing something about it....

They took care of all of those gamers last year when they took a huge chunk of the 3.0 and threw them into 3.5.

They pretty much killed 3.0 in my area and perhaps some people got a bad rap, but you can blame all the cheaters and gamers you keep talking about for that.... (because anytime you try to have a reasonable human in charge of all of this they tend to cheat.....)

Same with this guy. If he got a bad rap (and I dont think he did), then he needs to blame all the cheaters who spoiled it for everyone else.

(including the cheaters who cheat just because they went to the playoffs and saw everyone else cheat....)

What they did was screwed a bunch of people by just moving a "chunk" as you said up. I personally think it was to give more 4.5 people someone to play. 4.5 is basically a death sentence where I live. No one wants to play it and for good reason. That's where you run into Tennessee's and Geogia's players for example and at 41 that is not much fun. So I think that's where the problem starts and goes back from there. 3.5's are hiding out in 3.0 because the 4.0's are trying to stay in 3.5 because 4.5's are constantly trying to get down to 4.0 just so they can play. It can be much better I think. We have just accepted it because many of us have nothing else in our areas, but thank God for Alta. It was the way out for me and my wife. It's much easier to follow and the rules are so much more easier to live with and follow.

chatt_town · Mar 24, 2010

JavierLW said:
Well that's the jist of it. You can just continue to make the excuse that "it's all jacked up man", and "everyone is doing it".

Or you can do something about it when someone is finally actually out of level. This is doing something about it....

They took care of all of those gamers last year when they took a huge chunk of the 3.0 and threw them into 3.5.

They pretty much killed 3.0 in my area and perhaps some people got a bad rap, but you can blame all the cheaters and gamers you keep talking about for that.... (because anytime you try to have a reasonable human in charge of all of this they tend to cheat.....)

Same with this guy. If he got a bad rap (and I dont think he did), then he needs to blame all the cheaters who spoiled it for everyone else.

(including the cheaters who cheat just because they went to the playoffs and saw everyone else cheat....)

What they did was screwed a bunch of people by just moving a "chunk" as you said up. I personally think it was to give more 4.5 people someone to play. 4.5 is basically a death sentence where I live. No one wants to play it and for good reason. That's where you run into Tennessee's and Geogia's players for example and at 41 that is not much fun. So I think that's where the problem starts and goes back from there. 3.5's are hiding out in 3.0 because the 4.0's are trying to stay in 3.5 because 4.5's are constantly trying to get down to 4.0 just so they can play. It can be much better I think. We have just accepted it because many of us have nothing else in our areas, but thank God for Alta and the Rainbow Tennis league. It was the way out for me and my wife. It's much easier to follow and the rules are so much more easier to live with and follow.The alta league is good for league play and Rainbow is great for tennis tournament play.

JavierLW · Mar 24, 2010

chatt_town said:
What they did was screwed a bunch of people by just moving a "chunk" as you said up. I personally think it was to give more 4.5 people someone to play. 4.5 is basically a death sentence where I live. No one wants to play it and for good reason. That's where you run into Tennessee's and Geogia's players for example and at 41 that is not much fun. So I think that's where the problem starts and goes back from there. 3.5's are hiding out in 3.0 because the 4.0's are trying to stay in 3.5 because 4.5's are constantly trying to get down to 4.0 just so they can play. It can be much better I think. We have just accepted it because many of us have nothing else in our areas, but thank God for Alta and the Rainbow Tennis league. It was the way out for me and my wife. It's much easier to follow and the rules are so much more easier to live with and follow.The alta league is good for league play and Rainbow is great for tennis tournament play.

Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!! (and you did it three times at that....)

Islandtennis · Mar 25, 2010

chatt_town said:
Dude/Dudette,

.... So if this guy that started this thread came and played on a kick@$$ team at the 4.0 level and made it state, he basically immediately becomes a benchmark 4.0 player that no one is allowed to beat and that's with him clearly being a 3.5 at best player. So any descent 4.0 player is hosed up as soon as he walks on the court with this guy. That's just one example.

Chatt, you do realize that a benchmark 3.5 can have a rating anywhere between 3.01 and 3.50 don't you? Benchmarking is just used to attempt to equalize ratings between areas. That is why if you play someone at your districts from Nashville, you have a benchmark rating. All of the other Chatt guys who played you but not any Nashville guys are balanced with the guys who had played your Nashville opponent.

I can't believe it. I actually agree with Javier

OrangePower · Mar 25, 2010

I think the OP is handling this well and in a mature manner. And congratulations on getting to 3.5 so quickly!

The only thing I have to add is that it should not have been totally unexpected. After all, the OP signed up for a 3.5 team. That indicates that he thought he could be competitive at that level (otherwise would be a waste of time, no?) So in general I don't have much sympathy for anyone playing up and then getting DQ'd or bumped up as a result, because by playing up you are basically saying that you think you are good enough for the next level. And if your results on the court back that up, then you have no cause to complain about no longer being able to beat up on weaker players

chatt_town · Mar 25, 2010

JavierLW said:
I certainly didnt accuse you of cheating, it's people like chatt_town that come on here and make you look bad by over doing it.

If you succeed too well, a few people will get DQ'ed, that's just the way it goes. I agree with you that it's really a accomplishment more then anything.

Whether you were screwed or not depends on what you can reasonably expect when you register for a team.

If someone is registering for the fun and the love of tennis and the chance to compete, then in most cases where they get DQ'ed they cant really complain. After all they still got to play some tennis and whether those matches count or not you cant take that away.

But if someone is only in it for a pen and a trip somewhere that they have to pay for themselves, then they will obviously feel robbed. But what guarentee is there of that anyway? I think if a team feels they are somehow owed that trip and they were certain they were going to win then why the heck are they playing at that level anyway? (and wasting an entire local season just on the basis that they couldnt get past some higher level on ONE weekend last year is still not really a reason)

Not to say it's bad to want to win, it is a league and that's a good goal to have, but when people go to the extent that they feel "robbed" when they dont win you have to wonder what their motivation really is. (not saying that's you or your team, but it does fit some guys on here)

I see you are trying to be kissy face and all but lets stick with facts. You would not give your money to anything else and not expect what you paid for. When the day comes where we can go to say 3.5 nationals and see people pushing serves in like a typical 3.5 instead of kick serves jumping over the side fence then you can talk to me about the nonsense you are spewing. Again, this guy got screwed and in a couple of years if he runs into enough people that roll over on top of the people he will beat and gets bumped clean to 4.5 where it's hard to get picked up with a 3.5 or 4.0 game we'll see how much of an accomplishment it is. I play purely for fun. I just don't like computers deciding things like this when it is a fact that the computers aren't doing a good job and that's why the "chunk" got bumped the way they did this year. Hell they manipulated their own computers to do what they did. You are right about one thing. We just have to play around it. I wasn't whining, I'm just telling him the truth since you couldn't. I play non sanctioned tourneys to avoid dealing with this. I do play on one USTA team and that's because me and the guy are good friends. It's certainly not because I love USTA. I don't hate them either. I just think they make too much money off of us for it to be as flawed as it is. Like I said, he just needs to keep his eyes open and he'll slowly start to see what's going on. It can be fun but the most fun you are going to have is by far at the lower levels. The drama and match fixing gets worse the higher up you go up the ladder. I guess you are going to say that's a lie as well. Lastly to clarify one thing. I'd like for you to back and copy and paste any statement that "I" said that would make "him" look bad. I don't think you can do it bro. I told him what to look for while you were trying to tell him a bunch of bs. I'll give it two more years if that long and he'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Just keep playing bro.

chatt_town · Mar 25, 2010

dmarcen said:
yea i see your point gameboy... guess i just got what was coming to me and many of you would like to throw me into the pile of those which ruin the game

Dmarcen,

Listen bro. It's not all on you. What I'm telling you is this. People know they aren't going to get a warning. What they do is this. Many teams keep a computer geek on the team that knows who all is bench mark in the league. They then go out and do things like for example. If it's a small league, they pretty much know who's capable of doing what so what they do are things like when they see someone like yourself that doesn't know anything. They allow you to beat the **** out of one of them knowing full well they can take the other lines or if you have another bench mark player playing say line 1 singles, they lose the line 1 and kick your @$$. Some here will down play it but trust me it goes on. If you don't believe that do this. Those guys that you beat. Take them all outside of USTA and don't tell them anything and play them in pickup matches and see how different the matches turn out. You will find yourself on the bad end of some beatings because the scores aren't being reported. I've even heard of teams here or on border states get together and decide that one team is going to win Tennessee and the stronger will win Ga before one match is ever played. The scores are predermined to f'k the computer and if you are playing 500 with most scores being 6-4, 7-5 you will probably not be bumped. It goes on and they are trying to keep you in the dark. I'm telling you what's really going on. It's not for you to cheat but for you to at least know when a guy is jerking around on the court. again, the higher you go, the more you'll see this type of nonsense going on. We'll all be here in a couple of years God willing. I want you to come back and tell us who told you more of the truth and who was snowing you.

chatt_town · Mar 25, 2010

islandtennis said:
Chatt, you do realize that a benchmark 3.5 can have a rating anywhere between 3.01 and 3.50 don't you? Benchmarking is just used to attempt to equalize ratings between areas. That is why if you play someone at your districts from Nashville, you have a benchmark rating. All of the other Chatt guys who played you but not any Nashville guys are balanced with the guys who had played your Nashville opponent.

I can't believe it. I actually agree with Javier

Come again Island. Finally someone is talking about the issue and not finger pointing. Now lets discuss this. So you are saying that the guys that played me in Chatt and the guys that played the Nashville's state rep are balanced? Are you saying that I and the other nashville state player are bench mark because we beat the other 3.5's in our respective cities?

chatt_town · Mar 25, 2010

OrangePower said:
I think the OP is handling this well and in a mature manner. And congratulations on getting to 3.5 so quickly!

The only thing I have to add is that it should not have been totally unexpected. After all, the OP signed up for a 3.5 team. That indicates that he thought he could be competitive at that level (otherwise would be a waste of time, no?) So in general I don't have much sympathy for anyone playing up and then getting DQ'd or bumped up as a result, because by playing up you are basically saying that you think you are good enough for the next level. And if your results on the court back that up, then you have no cause to complain about no longer being able to beat up on weaker players

Okay, now I agree with Orange on this. I'm going to tell you like I had to tell my wife. It's nothing wrong with taking an @$$whipping. I think it's good. Just don't be so quick to pay USTA to do so. There are plenty of people I'm sure that you can find to dish out an @$$whipping. Learn each level and succeed at each level. I think you said you are in your early 20's. You got the rest of your life to be 4.0, 4.5 and higher. To me you take the fun out if you are constantly trying to player higher levels when you haven't achieved anything at the level you are at. My wife almost found out the hard way. She got bumped to 4.5 and had never even played a state match at 3.5 or 4.0. She got her 4.0 back and has since seen what I was showing her with those girls that were rolling over in USTA matches. She went out and played the same girls and got her @$$ torn out the frame on a consistent basis. It took that happening to her for her to realize what was going on. She also had to hear her own captain of a Tennesse team discuss how they were getting ready to screw the computer in GA by putting scores in a certain way. So both teams got to participate in State but hardly anyone if any got bumped.

chatt_town · Mar 25, 2010

JavierLW said:
Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!! (and you did it three times at that....)

Yea, that's what I thought...nothing to say.

It's all good bro.

kylebarendrick · Mar 25, 2010

benchmark only means you played a match at a "championship" level (the terms vary by section, but these include District, State, Sectional and National championships). Being a benchmark does not mean you are at the top of you level and it does not mean that people who beat you get strikes. As an example if a 3.0 player has a great season, plays (and even loses) a match a Sectionals, and gets bumped the following year, their new rating would be "3.5B" - hardly a top notch 3.5.

You are right, though, that there are teams that manipulate their scores to keep their ratings down. I defy anyone to design a rating system that can prevent cheaters from losing on purpose. The problem is less about the USTA than it is about people that only care about winning, no matter how meaningless the win.

chatt_town · Mar 25, 2010

kylebarendrick said:
benchmark only means you played a match at a "championship" level (the terms vary by section, but these include District, State, Sectional and National championships). Being a benchmark does not mean you are at the top of you level and it does not mean that people who beat you get strikes. As an example if a 3.0 player has a great season, plays (and even loses) a match a Sectionals, and gets bumped the following year, their new rating would be "3.5B" - hardly a top notch 3.5.

You are right, though, that there are teams that manipulate their scores to keep their ratings down. I defy anyone to design a rating system that can prevent cheaters from losing on purpose. The problem is less about the USTA than it is about people that only care about winning, no matter how meaningless the win.

You may be right but it has to have changed because I'm going to repeat what the lady told me from Nashville when I asked her how do you get a strike. She told me our player got 2 strikes for beating the same bench mark player in Chattanooga and then he got his last in Nashville for beating a bench mark player at state. I have a couple of problems with that. The biggest problem I have is you don't wait until the state is over and come take matches. His third strike came our first match of state but he was told after we had won the state and had we not been kicking people in 4-1 and 5-0 we would have had to relinquish our title as State Champions. So unless it's changed since 2003, that's exactly what we were told. I wish I had kept those emails because she didn't know what the hell she was talking about. What I just explained to you is the only thing she could explain and to this day it doesn't make any sense to me and that's why we would not send her 250 bucks to reserve a place at sectionals. Told them to go to hell and took that money and grilled out and celebrated being State Champions.

Only a fool would have paid them that money after she told me more could be dq'd when we got there and started playing as we were all(except a few) new to tennis.

3-Strike Rule and DQed mid-season...

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