Self Rates being watched closely

Blade0324

Blade0324

Hall of Fame
Anyone else see that self rate players are being watched really closely this year. Seems like since the big move up the USTA is really watching to see how captains fill their rosters. I know of 3 people that have been moved up already mid season in our section. One started as a 5.0 self rate but was a computer rated 5.0, 3 years ago and has not played USTA since. One match played and he is DQ'd and moved to 5.5. The second one on the same team is a self rate 5.0 former high school player, played only one match and DQ'd mid season to 5.5. The third is a guy from europe that was playing on our 4.5 team as a self rate 4.5. He is 26 and won 2 matches 6-4,6-4 and then 7-6,6-3. He has also been DQ'd and moved to 5.5 mid season. Both captains have been told that if they have even one more minor infraction that they will be suspended from USTA for a year.
Any one else see this in other sections, we are in Intermountain.
 
K

kendall22

Rookie
I just think the play in the levels has been diluted so much by the mass bump-up that self-rates, using the same wording in the questionnaires and charts as before, are comparing to the computer-rateds more favorably.
 
atatu

atatu

Legend
It sounds like these guys did not fill out their self rate forms correctly ? Otherwise I don't see how you can bump a guy after one match...
 
I

iankogan

Rookie
I'm with poster #3 here. DQ-ing a player based on the results of one match wouldn't make sense. Not that USTA always makes sense but I think something else is at play here. As for the 4.5 self-rated guy beating other 4.5-rated (I assume) players 6-4,6-4 and 7-6,6-3: what's so suspicious about that?

BTW Blade I'm in Intermountain too, though only a 3.5. Never heard of anyone being DQed at my level.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
kendall22 said:
I just think the play in the levels has been diluted so much by the mass bump-up that self-rates, using the same wording in the questionnaires and charts as before, are comparing to the computer-rateds more favorably.
Click to expand...

I think you're right.

This year in my 2nd year of 4.0 Singles, I got beat 6-3, 6-0 by a self rated 3.5. He just got DQ'd.

I also lost 6-2, 6-0 to a mixed exclusive 4.0, and he just got DQ'd to 4.5.

Lots of DQ'ing going on this year.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
We've had 2 dynamic DQs in our league, including one from my team, but they were both clearly 3 strikes DQs done entirely by computer. There has to be more to the story with guys getting DQd after 1 or two matches. This has to be a grievance situation.
 
Blade0324

Blade0324

Hall of Fame
I do know of one of the situations where the first 5.0 player I mentioned did have a grievance filed against him when playing a 9.0 mixed match so that could have been the deal for him. The others I don't think that is the case unless the USTA is just having section coordinators doing random checks.
 
Topaz

Topaz

Legend
^^^Correct, other than a computer generated DQ, if a grievance is filed and found to be worthwhile, players can and will be moved accordingly.

So, be careful that nobody can find any hint of your college tennis career when you self-rate at 3.0! :roll:
 
J

JLyon

Hall of Fame
hmm interesting at 5.0 typically do not see many grievances filed, since the talent pool is much smaller, as 5.0 Captain I know I could pop quite a few players if I really wanted too, but it is not worth it anymore.
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
I didn't know they even had 5.5 in Intermountain anymore. Until this year we could only get draws of 2 or 3 people in most tournaments in Denver in 5.0 and some were high 4.5's. There weren't any 5.5 tournaments (maybe Colo State Open but I don't remember seeing one there). It's stupid to bump people up to where they can't play at all - it happened to a friend of mine a few years ago. No leagues, no tournaments, only a couple Open tournaments a year. At least if he gets bumped up again, he's old enough to play age group tournaments now.
 
Blade0324

Blade0324

Hall of Fame
NLBwell, good points I hadn't really thought about. You are right there is no 5.5 league and not much in tourneys there either. At that level it either open or age group play and like you said those are quite limited. I don't have a huge problem with what the USTA is trying to do with bringing rating levels more in line, but if that is going to be the case they need to open up some more levels of play.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Blade0324 said:
NLBwell, good points I hadn't really thought about. You are right there is no 5.5 league and not much in tourneys there either. At that level it either open or age group play and like you said those are quite limited. I don't have a huge problem with what the USTA is trying to do with bringing rating levels more in line, but if that is going to be the case they need to open up some more levels of play.
Click to expand...

My friend and I were talking about this last year when some of the 5.0 guys got moved to 5.5.

We were thinking that the best idea would be to make it 5.0+ and then use the same 2 singles 3 doubles format of the rest of the levels.

So the level would be unlimited, and everyone could play.

Because, just about every team has a dead ringer at the #1 spot anyway who is in no way shape or form a 5.0. And then depth would be a major factor. Where you can't just have your ringer smoke the guy in the singles spot, and hope for 1 of the dubs.

J
 
8

86golf

Semi-Pro
J011yroger said:
My friend and I were talking about this last year when some of the 5.0 guys got moved to 5.5.

We were thinking that the best idea would be to make it 5.0+ and then use the same 2 singles 3 doubles format of the rest of the levels.

So the level would be unlimited, and everyone could play.

Because, just about every team has a dead ringer at the #1 spot anyway who is in no way shape or form a 5.0. And then depth would be a major factor. Where you can't just have your ringer smoke the guy in the singles spot, and hope for 1 of the dubs.

J
Click to expand...

This would make too much sense. It would need to be more complicated for the USTA to adopt it. Maybe if you add a provision that your birthday has to be in a month that begins with J.

I haven't noticed as many DQ's in our league in Charlotte this year as in years past.
 
Topaz

Topaz

Legend
Just noticed a DQ in our league last night...gal who self-rated at 3.0 but playing up and winning at 3.5 singles (most notably against me) got the 3.0 DQ and is now a computer rated 3.5. All her 3.0 wins are now losses.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
^ So that was five individual match DQs at No. 1 singles for her team. Which changed the team match outcome from a win to a loss in two matches, taking the team record from 4-3 to 2-5.

No sympathy here.
 
Topaz

Topaz

Legend
Oh, trust me, she isn't getting any sympathy from me either!

Thing is, when I played her, I was actually serving for the first set at 5-4...everything went kaplooey after that.
 
H

herrburgess

Rookie
Guy playing in our local 3.0 league this spring (and winning convincingly at #1 singles) got bumped from 2.0 to 3.5. I think he signed up expecting to be bumped...but only the traditional half a point to 2.5. They certainly seem to not be messing around this year!
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
86golf said:
This would make too much sense. It would need to be more complicated for the USTA to adopt it. Maybe if you add a provision that your birthday has to be in a month that begins with J.

I haven't noticed as many DQ's in our league in Charlotte this year as in years past.
Click to expand...

Oh well, if they ever did anything smart, we would find something else to ***** about right?

J
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
gunnd5000 said:
AHAHAHA the USTA are on par with the LTA for missuse of funds and disorganisation
Click to expand...

Don't you sometimes think that a bunch of drunk guys shooting darts and writing down their notes on bar napkins with beers in hand could come up with a better set of rules?

J
 
M

Munj

New User
Can someone explain this one? I cannot understand why this person has not been DQ’d. ESPECIALLY since one of his wins was against a guy that was later DQ’d. I know he played a lot of Junior tournaments and is currently a self-rated 4.0.

Here are his 4.0 match results:

W 6-3, 0-6, 1-0 [his opponent has been DQ’d / bumped to 4.5)
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-1, 6-0
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-0, 6-0
W 6-2, 6-1

Here are his 4.5 matches:
L 3-6, 3-6
L 6-7, 7-6, 0-1
W 6-1, 6-3

I would think that his 4.0 singles record has at least 4-5 strikes.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Munj said:
Can someone explain this one? I cannot understand why this person has not been DQ’d. ESPECIALLY since one of his wins was against a guy that was later DQ’d. I know he played a lot of Junior tournaments and is currently a self-rated 4.0.

Here are his 4.0 match results:

W 6-3, 0-6, 1-0 [his opponent has been DQ’d / bumped to 4.5)
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-1, 6-0
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-0, 6-0
W 6-2, 6-1

Here are his 4.5 matches:
L 3-6, 3-6
L 6-7, 7-6, 0-1
W 6-1, 6-3

I would think that his 4.0 singles record has at least 4-5 strikes.
Click to expand...

Assuming his opponents were 4.0 rated, then, yes, I would think you are correct. In addition, if his opponents in the 4.5 level are all 4.5 rated, then at least 2 and probably all 3 4.5 matches should be strikes as well. If his wins are against 3.5s playing up at 4.0, then it's not as clear.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
Munj said:
Can someone explain this one? I cannot understand why this person has not been DQ’d. ESPECIALLY since one of his wins was against a guy that was later DQ’d. I know he played a lot of Junior tournaments and is currently a self-rated 4.0.

Here are his 4.0 match results:

W 6-3, 0-6, 1-0 [his opponent has been DQ’d / bumped to 4.5)
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-1, 6-0
W 6-0, 6-3
W 6-0, 6-0
W 6-2, 6-1

Here are his 4.5 matches:
L 3-6, 3-6
L 6-7, 7-6, 0-1
W 6-1, 6-3

I would think that his 4.0 singles record has at least 4-5 strikes.
Click to expand...

In his win against the 4.0 DQ'd to 4.5, he actually won less games than his opponent (7 to 9), so the rating differential puts his opponent above him.

In the other wins, it could be he is borderline 4.5 playing against weak 4.0s and/or 3.5s playing up. In the 4.5 matches, he could be playing competitive matches against weak 4.5s and/or 4.0s playing up. Its hard to say. I'd say regardless he is probably close to being DQ'd. Maybe it will happen soon.
 
B

BlueTennis

New User
There have been three 3-strike DQ's in my 3.5 league this season. Each of the DQ's was a singles player from three different teams. It's quite interesting to hear this is going on everywhere.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
raiden031 said:
In his win against the 4.0 DQ'd to 4.5, he actually won less games than his opponent (7 to 9), so the rating differential puts his opponent above him.

In the other wins, it could be he is borderline 4.5 playing against weak 4.0s and/or 3.5s playing up. In the 4.5 matches, he could be playing competitive matches against weak 4.5s and/or 4.0s playing up. Its hard to say. I'd say regardless he is probably close to being DQ'd. Maybe it will happen soon.
Click to expand...

The guy who got DQ'd from our team got his strikes playing against 2 3.5 bump ups from last year and a guy who hasn't won a match at 4.0 in 4 years. In other words, weak 4.0s. So, it appears that the algorithm puts more weight on margin of victory than it does rating differential. With all those lopsided wins, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet for this guy unless those guys are actually 3.5s playing up.
 
JT_2eighty

JT_2eighty

Hall of Fame
This is my first year playing USTA leagues. I've noticed more than half of the players on most of the teams are all self-rated. So, you have all these self-rate vs. self-rate matches. Is there a way to look up someone's dynamic rating during the season? With all these self-rate battles, I'm guessing DQ's will be harder to come by?
 
D

dizzlmcwizzl

Hall of Fame
JT_2eighty said:
This is my first year playing USTA leagues. I've noticed more than half of the players on most of the teams are all self-rated. So, you have all these self-rate vs. self-rate matches. Is there a way to look up someone's dynamic rating during the season? With all these self-rate battles, I'm guessing DQ's will be harder to come by?
Click to expand...

PLaying against self rated players cannot give you a strike until they have a dynamic rating. And no the USTA does not allow you to look up a dynamic rating.
 
JT_2eighty

JT_2eighty

Hall of Fame
Cool. Any idea how many non-self rate matches one needs to receive a dynamic rating? Will the system retroactively give a strike once all the S's get their D ratings?

What about a doubles pair with one self-rate and one computer-rated? Is it harder to get a strike from doubles?

The answers really are not that important, as I'll just keep playing and see what happens, but my first three doubles matches I've won were 6-3, 6-0 (against two self-rates), 6-2, 6-2 (against two self-rates), and 6-2, 6-1 (against 1 C and 1 S), so I'm thinking I may already be in the scope of the DQ machine, once all the S's get Dynamic ratings. Oh well, just looking to have fun, wherever that may be. All this USTA stuff can get confusing!
 
Last edited:
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
JT_2eighty said:
Cool. Any idea how many non-self rate matches one needs to receive a dynamic rating? Will the system retroactively give a strike once all the S's get their D ratings?

What about a doubles pair with one self-rate and one computer-rated? Is it harder to get a strike from doubles?

The answers really are not that important, as I'll just keep playing and see what happens, but my first three doubles matches I've won were 6-3, 6-0 (against two self-rates), 6-2, 6-2 (against two self-rates), and 6-2, 6-1 (against 1 C and 1 S), so I'm thinking I may already be in the scope of the DQ machine, once all the S's get Dynamic ratings. Oh well, just looking to have fun, wherever that may be. All this USTA stuff can get confusing!
Click to expand...

Once you have one match against a C, B, or dynamically rated player, you will get a dynamic rating, so the "self-rated matches don't count" basically only lasts one match.
 
netman

netman

Hall of Fame
We all underestimate our abilities. That is the major flaw in self-rating. Sure a few folks cheat, but the majority of self-rating errors has to do with lack of self-confidence and/or modesty.

-k-
 
West Coast Ace

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
netman said:
We all underestimate our abilities. That is the major flaw in self-rating. Sure a few folks cheat, but the majority of self-rating errors has to do with lack of self-confidence and/or modesty.
Click to expand...
You're entitled to your opinion. I know I don't buy that - nor will many on this board.

Tennis is a hard sport to handicap. It's nice to see that the USTA is finally doing more - bumping and DQ'ing - to try to keep things under control. After yrs of doing nothing and letting the anger build up.
 
JT_2eighty

JT_2eighty

Hall of Fame
J_R_B said:
Once you have one match against a C, B, or dynamically rated player, you will get a dynamic rating, so the "self-rated matches don't count" basically only lasts one match.
Click to expand...

Is it retroactive? Since the first two matches I had were against self-rates, and the same went for those self-rates, would it basically go: "as soon as one of these players gets a dynamic rating, then everyone they played against as well as their opponents who were all self-rated all receive a Dyn rating?"
 
D

Darkhors

Rookie
To clarify some things really quick, the USTA does not base any bumping/DQ'ing on the actual score. As JRB said, you have to have a dynamic rating first before you can get a strike. Any matches that happen before that dynamic rating basically don't count towards your strikes. Each person has to achieve a dynamic rating themselves, so no, once a player gets a dynamic rating the other people he played before still may not have one.

The way the strike works is based on your dynamic rating, your opponents dynamic rating and the outcome (W/L). I think there may be one other thing that is added, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, that's the basis for the strikes so take it fwiw. If you rate yourself correctly then you should be fine. I know that I was a 4.0 last year and because we made it to ******* Regionals, everyone on my team except for 2 players got bumped to 4.5. I won't be moving anytime soon, so I'm ok with that.

Best of luck this season,

DH
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Darkhors said:
To clarify some things really quick, the USTA does not base any bumping/DQ'ing on the actual score. As JRB said, you have to have a dynamic rating first before you can get a strike. Any matches that happen before that dynamic rating basically don't count towards your strikes. Each person has to achieve a dynamic rating themselves, so no, once a player gets a dynamic rating the other people he played before still may not have one.

The way the strike works is based on your dynamic rating, your opponents dynamic rating and the outcome (W/L). I think there may be one other thing that is added, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, that's the basis for the strikes so take it fwiw. If you rate yourself correctly then you should be fine. I know that I was a 4.0 last year and because we made it to ******* Regionals, everyone on my team except for 2 players got bumped to 4.5. I won't be moving anytime soon, so I'm ok with that.

Best of luck this season,

DH
Click to expand...

The score does matter. The other element you are missing in the second paragraph is the margin of victory. In fact, the margin of victory is apparently very important in the algorithm. The guy who got DQ'd from our team played mostly weaker players at our level (4.0), but got bumped anyway because he lost only 2, 1, 1, and 2 games in those matches. Our captain called and complained saying that those guys were weak and that he could have beaten those guys that badly, too, but that doesn't make him a 4.5, which is a clever misdirection but doesn't change the fact that the guy who got bumped really is a 4.5. He signed up for a 4.5 team 2 weeks ago and won his first 4.5 singles match (against a guy who absolutely clobbered me in a non-USTA league match) 5 & 0.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
West Coast Ace said:
You're entitled to your opinion. I know I don't buy that - nor will many on this board.

Tennis is a hard sport to handicap. It's nice to see that the USTA is finally doing more - bumping and DQ'ing - to try to keep things under control. After yrs of doing nothing and letting the anger build up.
Click to expand...

I agree with netman. I think the vast majority of misratings are benign, more or less people being conservative about their abilities because they are unfamiliar with the structure.

I agree that the oversight is necessary and that midseason bumping is appropriate, but the reversal of the previous results is a little draconian, mostly because it doesn't even punish the guy who was bumped since he is no longer on the team or even in the league anymore, but rather it punishes the players who are still on the team and had nothing to do with the misrating.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
J_R_B said:
I agree that the oversight is necessary and that midseason bumping is appropriate, but the reversal of the previous results is a little draconian, mostly because it doesn't even punish the guy who was bumped since he is no longer on the team or even in the league anymore, but rather it punishes the players who are still on the team and had nothing to do with the misrating.
Click to expand...

Actually I disagree. It should and does punish the captain more than anyone when a DQ occurs. It is their team and they care most about the team results, and they usually know exactly what they are doing when they recruit certain players. They (captains) are usually the biggest cheaters of all. The reversal of all matches is definitely where I think justice prevails.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
raiden031 said:
Actually I disagree. It should and does punish the captain more than anyone when a DQ occurs. It is their team and they care most about the team results, and they usually know exactly what they are doing when they recruit certain players. They (captains) are usually the biggest cheaters of all. The reversal of all matches is definitely where I think justice prevails.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but that's a bunch of crap. How does it punish the captain but not the other players? In a lot of the teams here, the captain is not even close to the best player on the team, and it is the rest of us busting our asses to win the matches only to have them reversed because someone the captain recruited to help us actually turned out to be too good. The captains find players who they think hit well or whatever, but you really don't know how good someone is until they play a couple matches under pressure, and then if it turns out that they are actually better than you thought, it can ruin your whole season. What kind of sense does that make? It's a bunch of BS. Again, it's fine to bump the players. In that case, the captain won't be able to use the player at states or sectionals, anyway, and that's exactly what the blatant cheaters recruit ringers for in the first place, but there is absolutely no reason to steal wins from the rest of the people that are the ones doing the hard work on the courts.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
J_R_B said:
I'm sorry, but that's a bunch of crap. How does it punish the captain but not the other players? In a lot of the teams here, the captain is not even close to the best player on the team, and it is the rest of us busting our asses to win the matches only to have them reversed because someone the captain recruited to help us actually turned out to be too good. The captains find players who they think hit well or whatever, but you really don't know how good someone is until they play a couple matches under pressure, and then if it turns out that they are actually better than you thought, it can ruin your whole season. What kind of sense does that make? It's a bunch of BS. Again, it's fine to bump the players. In that case, the captain won't be able to use the player at states or sectionals, anyway, and that's exactly what the blatant cheaters recruit ringers for in the first place, but there is absolutely no reason to steal wins from the rest of the people that are the ones doing the hard work on the courts.
Click to expand...

I can't say I feel any pity for anyone that goes through this. Everyone knows it happens yet they all want to play dumb when it happens to them. I've never heard of a self-rated, appeal, or mixed-exclusive player who joins a team where everyone thinks they are at-level and then by surprise they are dominating the best players in the league and get DQ'd.
 
G

gameboy

Hall of Fame
Sorry JRB, no sympathy here either.

I understand you can under-estimate the rating in a completely innocent way, but you will know within a game or two if you made a big mistake.

It is the team/captain's fault to keep on playing that player risking a DQ. It is a three strike system for a reason. You can play a couple of matches and if they are performing clearly above the level, you need to say your goodbyes and don't use him any more. You ignore and keep using him, you deserve all the DQ's you get.
 
U

Ucantplay2much

Rookie
I got DQ'd this year. I self-rated 3.0 last year and went 1-3 in tournament matches. Two losses were straight sets and I only won 3 games in the final loss. I joined a 3.0 league thinking it was where I needed to be and I blew out three guys and got dinked.

Some people were telling me I should have been 3.5 but I didn't listen because, well, I got my arse kicked last year by 3.0s! My captain thought I would be good but didn't think I'd be THAT good.

Oh well. The important thing is that I'm at the right level now and having much more fun playing tough matches than trouncing people.
 
H

herrburgess

Rookie
Starting to see a lot of self-rated players popping up on combo teams. Traditionally (officially) combo matches haven't counted toward a dynamic rating, correct? Seems like this is a bit of a loophole in avoiding the DQs.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
herrburgess said:
Starting to see a lot of self-rated players popping up on combo teams. Traditionally (officially) combo matches haven't counted toward a dynamic rating, correct? Seems like this is a bit of a loophole in avoiding the DQs.
Click to expand...

Except that combo doesn't lead anywhere except maybe districts. The real motivation for sandbagging is the trip to Nationals.
 
W

wilfed14

Banned
yo!!!

they just file a grievance to a teammate of mine, he has never play in the USTA until this year nor college or high school, only recreational tennis. he hasn't lost a match in 3.0 (self-rate) but has lost sets and he hasn't blown anyone away.
they are just mad that we won our to games against them in our first year in the league and we are going to sectionals instead of them (they have never fail to get to sectionals)
do they got a case against our guy???can they get him DQ?
 
Topaz

Topaz

Legend
tbuggle said:
how does the USTA notify you if you get spanked?
Click to expand...

They contact opposing team captains, who get together, form a posse, and get the jump on you the next time you dare walk onto a court.

;)

I think some people get a letter, though I've heard sometimes that it is the captain who gets the letter instead of the actual player.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
wilfed14 said:
they just file a grievance to a teammate of mine, he has never play in the USTA until this year nor college or high school, only recreational tennis. he hasn't lost a match in 3.0 (self-rate) but has lost sets and he hasn't blown anyone away.
they are just mad that we won our to games against them in our first year in the league and we are going to sectionals instead of them (they have never fail to get to sectionals)
do they got a case against our guy???can they get him DQ?
Click to expand...

So what was the basis for the grievance then? Without proof that he played at a higher level in the past, they will lose the case against your teammate.
 
C

coloskier

Legend
iankogan said:
I'm with poster #3 here. DQ-ing a player based on the results of one match wouldn't make sense. Not that USTA always makes sense but I think something else is at play here. As for the 4.5 self-rated guy beating other 4.5-rated (I assume) players 6-4,6-4 and 7-6,6-3: what's so suspicious about that?

BTW Blade I'm in Intermountain too, though only a 3.5. Never heard of anyone being DQed at my level.
Click to expand...

I know I watched a USTA match in Intermountain in Denver being played last night while I was practicing in the next court over last night between two "supposed" 4.5's who both easily were strong 5.0's. They won't be in that division for very long if an official sees their matches.
 
netman

netman

Hall of Fame
This whole discussion is interesting. The core ideal of the The Code is sportsmanship. If you intentionally under-rate then you are violating the core tenant of The Code and shouldn't be on the court to begin with. So why whine?

-k-
 
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