Is Cheating Rampant in USTA Leagues?

N

new_tennis_player

Banned
I was talking to a couple of people at the BOTW, and they had both played in usta leagues. Both said they no longer played since they got tired of their opponents cheating.

Now, among the people I play with, 90% either make calls fairly, or are generous to a fault. So I'm hoping the people I spoke to are not a representative sample.

What's your experience with opponent's line calling in league play?
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
If you hit it anywhere NEAR the back line its out - or near any service line - out. So cheating is an issue - to some extent. Most guys play down around .5 level as well.

You better call out the score with each point and aim your shots well inside the lines..
 
B

Bacterio

Rookie
I agree that players seem quick to call shots near the baseline out. It's almost impossible to see if a shot hit the baseline when you're looking at it from behind unless it was well out.

I usually give the benefit of the doubt and keep on playing a ball that might have been out but most players seem to call those out even when I can see from my side that there was no space between the ball and the line.

That being said, I still think you get the fairest line calls during USTA Leagues and Tournament play. I seem to have more issues with pickup games at public courts.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
About 80-20 I'd say when it comes to close calls. Seems about 80% will call it out if they think it was out, opposed to giving the benefit of the doubt to the hitter when they are not sure.

It's not just in leagues though, as Jrs and even the Pros when they are calling their own lines, just don't call the outside of the line good. We had a pro league here with former touring pros/teaching pros and they were some of the worst I've seen when it came to this. When the results get sort of serious, I'm sorry to say that the calling approach is not that of the Code in most cases.

I would say you would get the nod more often on a close one in USTA league play, than you would in self calling serious tourneys.
 
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P

papa

Hall of Fame
Unfortunately, I'd say its just about everywhere and at all levels. However, the higher you get the better the calls are in general and that might, to some extent anyway, be that there are generally others watching. Spectators are quick to react to bad calls regardless of who is responsible.

Just look at foot-faults. A good percentage of players now do it on every serve especially at the lower levels. When you try and correct it the response is generally, "it wasn't that bad, or it really doesn't matter". Now its not uncommon to see players faulting with both feet.

Line calls in general are one of the problematic areas of the sport. Even on Har-Tru you see it and players now are experts at erasing marks - too bad but unless the players are committed to an honor system, some of the rules fall apart.

A lot of this is due to pressure (outside and within) but many, and it certainly is not just the younger ones, call everything out or my favorite transpose the scores - I know of a player who can do this with such ease it makes you sick.
 
supineAnimation

supineAnimation

Hall of Fame
I haven't played USTA for 8 years now, but questionable line calls and gamesmanship were pretty rampant on the 4.5 team I played on, far worse than other tourneys and leagues I've played in before or since. There seemed to be an unspoken understanding that the other guys were gonna call balls on the outside of the lines out and make a stink if you did the same. It got pretty old, frankly, and I've always had a tendency to play anything and everything close from my days working as a hitting partner, and so I definitely got the short end of the stick, at least in my singles matches. Doubles seemed to be a little better... maybe because there are double the sets of eyes on the court, but who knows. But I remember the opposing net player squeaking his shoe against the court just as the server was about to swing at my serve; calling lets on winners if a guy on the next court over got anywhere near to our court; crap like that.
 
athiker

athiker

Hall of Fame
new_tennis_player said:
I was talking to a couple of people at the BOTW, and they had both played in usta leagues. Both said they no longer played since they got tired of their opponents cheating.

Now, among the people I play with, 90% either make calls fairly, or are generous to a fault. So I'm hoping the people I spoke to are not a representative sample.

What's your experience with opponent's line calling in league play?
Click to expand...

At the 3.5/4.0 level in our area: No

I only started getting paranoid about it after joining this forum and reading all the horror stories. :lol: I've had consistently good experiences in the couple years, 4 seasons, I've played.
 
D

decades

Guest
it depends if you think having lots of ringers play is cheating. usta league and regional- national tournaments (ratings) is a breeding ground for people pretending to be a lot worse than they are.
 
LuckyR

LuckyR

Legend
decades said:
it depends if you think having lots of ringers play is cheating. usta league and regional- national tournaments (ratings) is a breeding ground for people pretending to be a lot worse than they are.
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Agreed. Line calls are no different than playing anyone else, usually generous, occasionally (or rarely) questionable. But self rating is ridiculous.
 
D

dizzlmcwizzl

Hall of Fame
I disagree with almost everything here. In general I have had very little difficulty with line calls in USTA matches. Although there will always be mistakes I generally find I benefit from missed calls by my opponents more often than I am harmed by them.

And there have been very few ringers over the last couple seasons. I played and lost to two self rated players this year who were clearly better than me, but I did not find them so much better than me that their rating was completely out of line.
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
It isn't called cheating.

Cheating on line calls = "Calling them tight"

Cheating on self-rate = "Conservatively rated"

For example, a former D1 player might be "conservatively rated" a 3.5

Fedace said:
only cheat on Break point, set point or game point.
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Yes.

You want to "call the lines tight" on the important points only. On the others, feel free to be generous.

I hope this helps in your enjoyment of USTA tennis.
 
B

bmwfool

New User
I'm quite surprised with the responses. I've been playing USTA since '99. Sure, you come across players that may hook, but for the most part, players are fair. I hate to see the responses thus far, it's telling me the majority of players out there cheat. I personally won't make a call unless I clearly saw it out. Even if I think it was out, I will not call it unless I know for certain it was.
 
Fedace

Fedace

Banned
r2473 said:
It isn't called cheating.

Cheating on line calls = "Calling them tight"

Cheating on self-rate = "Conservatively rated"

For example, a former D1 player might be "conservatively rated" a 3.5



Yes.

You want to "call the lines tight" on the important points only. On the others, feel free to be generous.

I hope this helps in your enjoyment of USTA tennis.
Click to expand...

i think it was Vince Lombardi that said winning isn't everything,,,it is the Only thing.............:)
 
polski

polski

Semi-Pro
dizzlmcwizzl said:
I disagree with almost everything here. In general I have had very little difficulty with line calls in USTA matches. Although there will always be mistakes I generally find I benefit from missed calls by my opponents more often than I am harmed by them.

And there have been very few ringers over the last couple seasons. I played and lost to two self rated players this year who were clearly better than me, but I did not find them so much better than me that their rating was completely out of line.
Click to expand...

I agree dizzl, I don't think I have been hurt by bad calls nearly as much as I have been given an out ball. And many of those I will call on myself...it is just the right thing to do.

In the past two years, I think the self rate problem has been getting taken care of. However, I think that if a 3-strike DQ made you ineligible for 6 months, it would resolve itself quickly.
 
polski

polski

Semi-Pro
bmwfool said:
I'm quite surprised with the responses. I've been playing USTA since '99. Sure, you come across players that may hook, but for the most part, players are fair. I hate to see the responses thus far, it's telling me the majority of players out there cheat. I personally won't make a call unless I clearly saw it out. Even if I think it was out, I will not call it unless I know for certain it was.
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AGREE. My good name is way more important to me than a W in a league tennis match.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
polski said:
In the past two years, I think the self rate problem has been getting taken care of. However, I think that if a 3-strike DQ made you ineligible for 6 months, it would resolve itself quickly.
Click to expand...

This I disagree with. The people who are caught and bumped are generally people who honestly misrated themselves then started winning blow outs. People who are willfully sandbagging will also throw games/sets/matches or whatever to maintain their "conservative rating" until playoff time. There's no need to further punish someone who never played USTA before, made an honest attempt to self-rate, and just happened to be wrong about it.
 
RogerRacket111

RogerRacket111

Semi-Pro
We played against a Self-rate cheat 4.0 in Playoff who had national experience in juniors in another country. He filled form saying he had no formal experience. They rated him 5.5 and not sure if they DQ'd him.

There are some captains who actively recruit people like this and also tell the they should fill out the form that way. I think the captains need to have some consequences also.
 
W

wvtennis

New User
The sandbagging has gotten better in our area, but it has not completely stopped. Alot of this is blame on the questionaire that you fill out on Tennislink when you go to Self Rate. They need to add more questions and change the criteria. A 25 year old kid that just played #2 for a high level Division 1 school schould not be allowed to play 4.5 tennis. What is the point of having a 5.0 and Open if people like this can rate as a 4.5?

As far as line calls, at local league we do not have an overall problem, of course there are a few exceptions to this.

At districts, it is spotty. Depends alot on the situation and the people. Also depends alot on how the match starts out. If a bad call is made in the first few games, the whole match turns into who can make more bad calls.
 
S

Steve Huff

G.O.A.T.
I've come across a fair amount of "tight" calls that I'd bet Hawkeye would have overturned. I played one 4.0 doubles match this year where one of the opponents called my partner's serve out before it was 6 feet from the ground---three times (2 of which landed in). Even worse, watch some of the women's league matches. I saw a 4.0 city league playoff match where a woman was calling balls 3-4 feet in out. I was walking to another match when one of our club pro's who was watching the women's match said, "hey Steve, come watch this. You won't believe it". He was right. I thought the women were going to get in a fist fight. One woman called anything over 2 feet from the line out. There was no tournament official there since they had sent some players to other courts. The 2 women on the losing end of the calls just didn't know what to do. It was ugly.

Speaking of "conservative" rating. When my wife first started playing at the 2.5 level, they won the city tournament. In there first match against a team from Shenedoah, my wife hit a lob (common for that level). One of the women stepped back, did a scissor kick to hit the overhead, and bounced the overhead over the back fence. This is a 2.5 now. Pretty "conservative" rating wouldn't you say.
 
R

rahuls

New User
I have played USTA leagues for some years now (I am a singles player), and not once have I found someone deliberately cheating me. Sure there have been mistakes but I have found at least my opponents to be quite honest. There was one instance when my opponent at the districts had a match point in the super tie. He came to the net, I lobbed, he ran back but lost the point. My shot would have landed very close to the baseline and the few people watching were on my side of the court so there was nobody other than him to actually see the ball land. He could have well have called it out and nobody would have disputed the call but he said it was in and said "good shot". He went on to win the match. This was 1 of the more egregious examples of fair play i rememeber.
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
Well not to sound too cynical but for the people that don't feel they get hooked - its probably their game style. Do you either win or lose your matches badly? Then you won't get hooked. People will give you that call if your kicking the crap out of them OR they are demolishing you. Also if you have a big hard hitting ground stroke game and can hit winners that aren't near the lines you will get good calls.

The shots where you get hooked on - are aces near the lines and long moonballesque deep balls and lobs on the baseline. That's where I noticed the large difference from casual play (in which the men usually call things honest). Its pretty bad but my topspin lobs are one of my best shots. I can really murder some good players with them when they try to come into the net. But in league play I found that shot to be nearly useless because when it goes over the head of the player they will often call it out.. Passing shots are much better for league play..

Women OTOH cheat nearly all the time in league and - even in casual play. Nearly every single time I go to the park I can spot some women fighting and cheating. They are really terrible sports - especially the bad ones. I think this is because they never played sports in HS/College. Its unbelievable and it happens right in the 'show courts' too. I can't believe people have the gall to cheat like that.

In fairness though the good women 4.5 and above I have hit with have all been extremely honest.. So I don't mean to bash all women. Its just the rec 3.0+ crowd that picked up tennis to get some exercise crowd that can be extremely dishonest.
 
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RogerRacket111

RogerRacket111

Semi-Pro
What bugs me is in some casual games my opponent will blow the call on the ace and say take two (serves) Its not like its easy for me to hit that spot and ace again. Either give me the benefit of the doubt if your not sure or call it out and own up to it, take two is stupid.
 
N

new_tennis_player

Banned
These replies are reassuring. It's impossible to eliminate bad calls, but it seems like for the most part people respect fair play.

Are there officials or judges for any finals matches?

I can't see USTA implementing hawkeye for rec tournaments?
 
D

dizzlmcwizzl

Hall of Fame
new_tennis_player said:
These replies are reassuring. It's impossible to eliminate bad calls, but it seems like for the most part people respect fair play.

Are there officials or judges for any finals matches?

I can't see USTA implementing hawkeye for rec tournaments?
Click to expand...

In local layoffs and beyond you have roving officials. You can call them over if you are having a dispute or if you need them to keep an eye on your lines. They likely wont do the whole match but they will give you an extra impartial set of eyes during tiebreaks and such.
 
polski

polski

Semi-Pro
RogerRacket111 said:
What bugs me is in some casual games my opponent will blow the call on the ace and say take two (serves) Its not like its easy for me to hit that spot and ace again. Either give me the benefit of the doubt if your not sure or call it out and own up to it, take two is stupid.
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That's not the rule. If you hit an ace & they call it out, then fess up that it is in - it is your point. On the other hand, if you hit a serve that they call out, but they still returned it into the court - they can call let.

This situation has been in Court of Appeals in Tennis Mag several times. Admitting a mistake is in line with the Code.
 
Angle Queen

Angle Queen

Professional
dizzlmcwizzl said:
I disagree with almost everything here. In general I have had very little difficulty with line calls in USTA matches. Although there will always be mistakes I generally find I benefit from missed calls by my opponents more often than I am harmed by them.
Click to expand...
Same here. I think I "get" more good calls than bad or even marginal calls. And I really can't think of a match (in my 7+ years of USTA) where the problem was perpetual. Sure, there was a call that maybe didn't go my way, but there's seldom a second one in the same match.

My partner and I agree. 99% out...is still 1% in....and therefore called IN. We'll even overrule each other...just to make sure we give our opponents every benefit of the doubt. It's just not worth it to hook.
 
P

Perry the Platypus

Rookie
I think that most of the time people call the lines fairly. I honestly think I get more good calls (out balls called in) than bad calls (in balls called out). I just don't see a lot of hooking.

One thing we all have to remember is that there is a difference in a missed call and a hook. Even professional linespeople who are sitting on the line miss calls from time to time. The advent of hawkeye has shown us this happens more than once per match. That is part of the game and for the most part I think we all just have to accept it.

Now, if your opponent seems to only miss calls at deuce or game point there may be a problem......
 
C

catfish

Professional
Perry the Platypus said:
I think that most of the time people call the lines fairly. I honestly think I get more good calls (out balls called in) than bad calls (in balls called out). I just don't see a lot of hooking.

One thing we all have to remember is that there is a difference in a missed call and a hook. Even professional linespeople who are sitting on the line miss calls from time to time. The advent of hawkeye has shown us this happens more than once per match. That is part of the game and for the most part I think we all just have to accept it.

Now, if your opponent seems to only miss calls at deuce or game point there may be a problem......
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I think that sometimes people may miss a call, but they are making a mistake and not trying to cheat the opponent. And I'm not going to get all worked up if someone makes a mistake. I've played tennis for about 10 years, and I honestly think that I have been "cheated" on line calls maybe 5 times. And out of those few times, only once did the call affect the outcome of the match. But so what. I got PO'd at the time, but soon forgot it. I still see the person who I thought cheated me on match point. Turns out, I've never lost to that person again, and it also turns out that person is really a nice person. In all the times we've played over the years, I've never seen any bad line calls. Maybe it was just a fluke. Or maybe that person really saw the ball out. I don't know.

Line calls are a frequent topic among league players, and I think people get too worked up over the issue. Balls that are out by an inch or two may look in from the opposite side of the court. I give people the benefit of the doubt. My eyesite is not perfect, so something that looks in to me, may not really be in.
 
N

new_tennis_player

Banned
In by a country mile.

23jmp93.jpg
 
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J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
GuyClinch said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ

Go 1:59 seconds into that video - and tell me you don't see hookin. <g>
Click to expand...

There is a difference between blowing a call and intentionally cheating. I know who that guy is. He's not a cheater, he just makes very bad calls every now and again. I saw him make a call like that in a friendly match a couple years ago on a court next to me. I was thinking "wow, that was really bad" at the the time, and then I saw this video. You may think it's impossible not to see that ball in, but people's eyes see strange things sometimes.

BTW, the other guy in that video retired after 1 set and has never played USTA again. I wonder if that had anything to do with it or if there were other calls like that in the set?
 
beernutz

beernutz

Hall of Fame
polski said:
That's not the rule. If you hit an ace & they call it out, then fess up that it is in - it is your point. On the other hand, if you hit a serve that they call out, but they still returned it into the court - they can call let.

This situation has been in Court of Appeals in Tennis Mag several times. Admitting a mistake is in line with the Code.
Click to expand...

I think the rule is that the receiver can call a let in that situation unless they have hit a 'weak sitter'. That part of the rule is one of those ambiguous judgment calls that I hate, because what actually constitutes a weak sitter? Sometimes you can win a point with a weak sitter return if it just clears the net, so why should you be penalized for hitting one?
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
There is a difference between blowing a call and intentionally cheating. I know who that guy is. He's not a cheater, he just makes very bad calls every now and again. I saw him make a call like that in a friendly match a couple years ago on a court next to me. I was thinking "wow, that was really bad" at the the time, and then I saw this video. You may think it's impossible not to see that ball in, but people's eyes see strange things sometimes.
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Yeah that's what those guys want you to think. :p They are just a "nice guy" that conviently gets calls wrong but in their favour. Every criminal thinks he is the victim. Hell ask some prisoners 90% of them claim innocent and the other 10% have some story as to why they were pressured into it..
 
N

new_tennis_player

Banned
J_R_B said:
There is a difference between blowing a call and intentionally cheating. I know who that guy is. He's not a cheater, he just makes very bad calls every now and again. I saw him make a call like that in a friendly match a couple years ago on a court next to me. I was thinking "wow, that was really bad" at the the time, and then I saw this video. You may think it's impossible not to see that ball in, but people's eyes see strange things sometimes.

BTW, the other guy in that video retired after 1 set and has never played USTA again. I wonder if that had anything to do with it or if there were other calls like that in the set?
Click to expand...

Take a look again at the still. Dude is looking RIGHT AT THE BALL. It obviously lands in and he knows it. He then points at a spot where the ball supposedly landed. Even if the ball had landed where he said it did, it STILL would have been in.

He's a cheater.

You acknowledge it too, stating that it could have been a factor in his opponent "retiring." This is why the people I spoke to quit playing: instead of becoming confrontational, they decided they had had enough with cheaters.
 
West Coast Ace

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
GuyClinch said:
Yeah that's what those guys want you to think. :p They are just a "nice guy" that conviently gets calls wrong but in their favour.
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Amen. The 'nice guys' are grinning like Cheshire Cats on the drive home knowing they 'blew' 3 or 4 calls like that in a match they stole.
 
Blade0324

Blade0324

Hall of Fame
I have to agree with those that say line calls are pretty bad in general. I would say in my experience in mens it's about 50/50 bad to good line callers, but the bad ones are really bad. If a ball is within 6-8 inches of a line it's out. I would also say in my area that women are much worse line callers than the men. I have seen many many many womens matches that the line calling is wrong more than it is right. I even had one mixed partner that I constantly over ruled her calls because they were so bad. Seems like women around here operate under when in doubt, call it out. Or if you really can't see it call it out too. Or if it's in and you can't get to it call it out.
 
P

Perry the Platypus

Rookie
@ above - I have never seen a ball that was half a foot in called out......and I've been playing 20 plus years. Where do you play - in a federal penitentiary? ;)
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Bad line calls aren't all that big a deal. Maybe I feel that way because I play doubles and there are four sets of eyes to help get things right?

What is really unforgivable and not punished enough is deliberate cheating.

The captain who put two teaching pros on her 7.0 mixed doubles team. Legend has it that she was suspended from captaining but has served out her suspension and is back to captaining. It should have been a lifetime ban from USTA play.

The Div. I female player who self-rated at 3.0, changing the spelling of her name to something unusual (Rebekka instead of Rebecca) to avoid being caught. Made it to the playoffs before someone recognized her. Don't know the penalty for that one.

The teams who try to have a ringer play in place of another player. This, I am told, is the reason everyone must show ID at Districts and beyond.

The teams who know someone is stuck in traffic, so they fill out the line-up with the sub. Then once they know the late player is on site, they have the sub fake an injury during the warm-up so they can substitute. Section coordinator told this story to the captains at the captain's meeting, so I assume it is true.

I think USTA should issue a report annually with such blatant violations listed, with the punishment given. Banning should happen for such instances of blatant cheating, IMHO.
 
rh310

rh310

Hall of Fame
Perry the Platypus said:
@ above - I have never seen a ball that was half a foot in called out......and I've been playing 20 plus years. Where do you play - in a federal penitentiary? ;)
Click to expand...

I've definitely seen that when watching college tennis. Worst cheating I've ever seen (as a spectator).
 
rh310

rh310

Hall of Fame
new_tennis_player said:
This is why the people I spoke to quit playing: instead of becoming confrontational, they decided they had had enough with cheaters.
Click to expand...

I had a guy hook me badly on a midcourt volley in a club ladder match. He looked right at me and smirked when he did it.

I called his next shot out, even though it was an easy three feet inside both lines. I looked at him and said, "Is this the kind of match we're going to have?"

I had no issue with any other calls he made, ever.

Why give a guy like that a W by retiring?
 
Hooked

Hooked

Rookie
Although I haven't played USTA, it has been my experience that most players are generous with their lines. Only calling outs if they see daylight between the line and the ball. Perhaps USTA changes that a bit as people have more riding on each match and call tighter lines. I tend to hit the lines quite a bit so I'm sure I would go ballistic if I ran into someone that was calling them out all of the time. I could understand missing a few calls by reading the rise of a heavy ball instead of the landing point, but anything landing inside a line that is called out is simply unacceptable. Perhaps it is simply too difficult for some egos to admit they made a bad call even when they know inside that they blew it.
 
athiker

athiker

Hall of Fame
I have posted earlier about personally not having problems with USTA line calling (team events, never played a tourney) but after a match last night I wondered something. Do you think players are under more pressure to call tight lines in USTA b/c they don't want to let teammates down by losing their match?...this vs. a non-USTA singles match where its just them. I know some guys get nervous about letting their partner down in USTA doubles play and maybe this sometimes manifests in line calls...IDK.

One other more relevant comment is re: an earlier post about loose line calls on unimportant points, but more questionable calls on important points.

Anyway, I had a singles Compass match yesterday. I think we both called very fair lines and gave some leeway on some close line calls on both the serve and during play. I dropped the first set 4-6. The second set was 6-6 and went to a 7 point tiebreak. At 8-9 match point for my opponent I hit a deep ball, backhand side that was probably out. If he had called it out I wouldn't have questioned it. I could not see definitive space from my side as I was pretty deep in my court as well but it was no question at best on the outside of the line. My opponent played the ball and I won the point quite a few strokes later.

Now he did say after the point that he might've blown it and mentioned that sideline ball but he did not try to then claim the point retroactively. :) He simply said he wasn't sure so had to play it. I told him I couldn't definitively see it out, but wouldn't have argued if he'd called it out. Anyway, he ended up winning the tiebreak anyway 10-12 so it wasn't a match changer. He actually had made a comment before we started about how he called lines...if he wasn't sure he would call it in...so he was true to his word....even on match point.

So do you think it may have been different in a USTA doubles match?
 
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